XSF Discussion - 2019-04-28

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0300.html#recommendations

the table says Support for version 1 of the 'urn:xmpp:hashes' namespace implies the following:

why is there a table for version 1 in a xep that is on version 2, but no table for version 2

lovetox, probably because it should be version 2

(on the table)

ok thanks

wait

actually, that XEP should not have that table at all

did I forget to open a PR

was the xep not split yet?

it is half-split

I need to make the PR for completing the split and to fix up a few issues in the recommendations XEP

I have a commit ready there, just need to re-read and PR it

High praise for XMPP in this latest episode: https://librelounge.org/episodes/episode-18-the-rise-and-fall-of-instant-messengers.html ... made me nostalgic. Hi, everyone. I'm new here.

Hi, welcome

flow, relevant: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/750

welcome, pdurbin

Thanks. I work at Harvard and I used to help run an Openfire server for our department. It was great.

It still is. 😇

interesting pdurbin. So are you in the Sysadmin department of Havard?

No. I switched jobs within Harvard a couple times. This was in 2006 or so that we had an Openfire server (yes, I'm sure it's still great 🙂). For the last six years I've been a developer for an open source project called Dataverse. I log our IRC channel and it's pretty active during the week: http://irclog.iq.harvard.edu/dataverse/2019-04-26

ah it is about metadata, I'll pm you since it is off topic here

Sure, please feel free to pm me. :)

received pdurbin ?

Hmm. Nope. Let me try initiating.

ok strange. No prob, my jid is no secret. Could you write me directly: yvo@jabber.de pdurbin ✏

I think this room filters PMs

but I’m not sure

it’s either this one or jdev@

filter PMs? what's the usecase for filtering PMs? jonas’ *wondering*

yvo: I just tried to send you a pm. I'm using an Android client called Conversations that was mentioned in that Libre Lounge episode above. I just installed it an hour ago so maybe it's misconfigured. :)

Conversations hates MUC-PMs

so that might be a different reason ;)

But a direct PM should work right? I sent one to Guus and we've been chatting back and forth without trouble.

He made a great post over at https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901

pdurbin, now reading that thread, I see "I’ve gravitated toward chat systems like Gitter where the conversation is saved.", you know that this also happens on XMPP? ✏

Yes, but there is a difference between conversation being saved and conversation (including decision making) being available to read without login on a website. I think the latter is healthy for open source projects. :)

Both are possible

pdurbin, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-04-25#2019-04-25-3565fdd047495c23 for an example of an XSF board meeting logs, for example

pdurbin: as an aside, there's some mix-up of terms going on. What you sent me earlier was a one-on-one message, which is technically different from a private message in a chatroom. The main difference is addressing: your one-on-one to me was addressed directly to me, while a PM in a room is addressed to my nickname in the room.

Interesting. I didn't know the difference between a one-to-one message and a PM. Thanks!

I just sent you a PM.

Lots of people wish there was no difference tbh

I also sent you some one-on-one messages, for illustration purposes.

Then don't use semi anonymous mucs and there is no difference

I strongly believe there is a need for some kind of anonymity, (even just a really small layer hiding quicksy users' jids, for example), but I don't know if full/semi-anon MUCs are the answer to that. In the meantime it's the only thing we have

moparisthebest: is this a PM?

No, you sent that to the whole channel

Ok. What do you call what I just did? Calling it an "@mention" doesn't feel like the right term. There's no @ sign. :)

It is called a mention or a highlight, depending on your background

That makes sense. Thanks, MattJ.

I see "Prosody" at the bottom of https://logs.xmpp.org . Is that the software creating public HTML versions of the logs? Are plain text versions created as well?

Prosody is an XMPP server implementation, like Openfire

Prosody has a plugin that generates those HTML logs.

Is it a core module?

Don't think so, but unsure. Zash or MattJ will be able to answer that.

It's not a core module

Is it https://modules.prosody.im/mod_http_muc_log.html ?

pdurbin: xmpp:prosody@conference.prosody.im?join may be of interest to you :)

Wiktor: thanks! I just joined. To be clear, I don't care at this point what XMPP server is used. I'm more interested in the complete solution: public logs for multi user channels. Are there any other examples out there besides https://logs.xmpp.org ?

not that I knew

You could ask if ejabberd has something similar. I think their room is xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join

Thanks. Joined. I'll ask after the current chatter dies down. :)

I'm getting the impression that my public log use case is unusual but I was glad to discover that this and a few other channels are logged. Makes sense for meetings especially.

I find it not so unusual?

I don’t think it’s too unusual

Ok. Good. :)

Actually I find the other way also interesting. IIRC Prosody room is not logged and doesn't have MAM enabled. This may be good to foster "no important discussions on chats, use e.g. Email"

But people love chat, especially Slack.

I'm opposed to keeping logs after having seen people get stressed out by feeling like they have to read all of it.

Not to mention having all messages preserved for eternity :)

And becase if it's important it should be written down in the docs or somewhere, not some hard-to-search chat log.

I actually set 6 month data retention limit in Conversations, also for my family members, no one complained for years :)

Yeah, that too. Public records change peoples behavior.

Zash: write the reasoning somewhere... Sometimes it's good to link to something like this (I'm serious)

I like preservation. :)

I mean "why isn't Prosody room logged"

I'd retain it for a while, for people that left or disconnected, but not long.

The pre-MAM built-in MUC history is still there to provide some context of whatever discussion you might be entering into when you join.

Ah right.

Wiktor: Writing down the reasons would be good, indeed.

Writing down all the important things that shouldn't be stored in chat logs would also be good, but it turns out that such things don't magically transcribe themselves into the proper place just because you don't keep persistent logs.

Zash: yes it doesn't but if you didn't write it down explicitly maybe it wasn't important? :)

I challenge this statement, I really doubt that applies to everything out there :P

What is and what should be aren't always the same.

I agree with Zash's last sentence

(well the one before that, now)

pep.: if it applied to anything I'd attach a formal proof ;) . It's more like a rule of thumb. Compare with how brain remembers, repeated exposure makes it easier to recall. One time events are usually ignored. :)

» One time events are usually ignored. not if they were very weird, unexpected or bizarre

I definitely agree that chat logs are no substitute for proper documentation and meeting minutes and all that. I write a ton of documentation for our project. :)

it is called "one shot learning" in psychology, a mysterious feature of humans brain.

Lots of emotions being involved seems to help. Evolutionary, it makes sense to make you remember that time when you got really scared so you can avoid whatever that was in the future.

Indeed. So you don't need chat logs for emotionally charged discussions too! Seems like a good optimization :)

I've heard the same thing, that memories are stronger if there's a strong emotion experienced. Not just fear.

Flamewars need not to be logged :D.

Yeah, I remember the important part of all of them: I was right

Yes, I am right. And you are right MattJ since you share my opinion.

Heh.

Lets publish a new encryption: whenever people flamewar lets compress it to "I was right". Very small file.

All chats about demos can be compressed too.

"I am against it."

My philosophy is to err on the side of logging and link to the interesting parts. Quote the interesting parts. Learn. Grow.

Could be a constant in the db. RIGHT and AGAINST

err? pdurbin? I dont get your abbreviation.

Oh sorry: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/err%20on%20the%20side%20of

Lean toward.

Favor.

Sometimes I say "open source by default".

The reason I'm here is that this channel is logged. :)

ah thx, never met that idiom.

Sure.

I have a list of haunts that are all Gitter and logged IRC channels: http://wiki.greptilian.com/haunts . Maybe I'll add this one. It's nice here. :)

I forgot how nice XMPP is.

Take your chance and become also a member of the XSF ;) next chance is soon: in May, pdurbin. ✏

Is there an easy to type character that is not valid in any JID part?

How much does it cost to be a member?

pdurbin: In the XSF? A few minutes of your time to type up a membership application.

flow: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.3.1 (except @ and /) are probably the easest to type, remember and find

Hm wait are those legal in resources?

I can probably afford a few minutes. Thanks. :)

Zash, @ and / are legal

MattJ: I know that, I though the other ones were't legal in resources. Turns out they are. Meh.