XSF Discussion - 2019-04-28

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  277. lovetox


  278. lovetox

    the table says Support for version 1 of the 'urn:xmpp:hashes' namespace implies the following:

  279. lovetox

    why is there a table for version 1 in a xep that is on version 2, but no table for version 2

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  394. jonas’

    lovetox, probably because it should be version 2

  395. jonas’

    (on the table)

  396. lovetox

    ok thanks

  397. jonas’


  398. jonas’

    actually, that XEP should not have that table at all

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  400. jonas’

    did I forget to open a PR

  401. flow

    was the xep not split yet?

  402. jonas’

    it is half-split

  403. jonas’

    I need to make the PR for completing the split and to fix up a few issues in the recommendations XEP

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  405. jonas’

    I have a commit ready there, just need to re-read and PR it

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  415. pdurbin

    High praise for XMPP in this latest episode: https://librelounge.org/episodes/episode-18-the-rise-and-fall-of-instant-messengers.html ... made me nostalgic. Hi, everyone. I'm new here.

  416. Guus

    Hi, welcome

  417. jonas’

    flow, relevant: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/750

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  419. jonas’

    welcome, pdurbin

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  439. pdurbin

    Thanks. I work at Harvard and I used to help run an Openfire server for our department. It was great.

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  442. Guus

    It still is. 😇

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  446. yvo

    interesting pdurbin. So are you in the Sysadmin department of Havard?

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  460. pdurbin

    No. I switched jobs within Harvard a couple times. This was in 2006 or so that we had an Openfire server (yes, I'm sure it's still great 🙂). For the last six years I've been a developer for an open source project called Dataverse. I log our IRC channel and it's pretty active during the week: http://irclog.iq.harvard.edu/dataverse/2019-04-26

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  472. yvo

    ah it is about metadata, I'll pm you since it is off topic here

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  474. pdurbin

    Sure, please feel free to pm me. :)

  475. yvo

    received pdurbin ?

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  477. pdurbin

    Hmm. Nope. Let me try initiating.

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  479. yvo

    ok strange. No prob, my jid is no secret. Could you write me directly: yvo@jabber.de

  480. yvo

    ok strange. No prob, my jid is no secret. Could you write me directly: yvo@jabber.de pdurbin

  481. jonas’

    I think this room filters PMs

  482. jonas’

    but I’m not sure

  483. jonas’

    it’s either this one or jdev@

  484. yvo

    filter PMs? what's the usecase for filtering PMs? jonas’ *wondering*

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  489. pdurbin

    yvo: I just tried to send you a pm. I'm using an Android client called Conversations that was mentioned in that Libre Lounge episode above. I just installed it an hour ago so maybe it's misconfigured. :)

  490. jonas’

    Conversations hates MUC-PMs

  491. jonas’

    so that might be a different reason ;)

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  499. pdurbin

    But a direct PM should work right? I sent one to Guus and we've been chatting back and forth without trouble.

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  514. pdurbin

    He made a great post over at https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901

  515. pep.

    pdurbin, now reading that threads, I see "I’ve gravitated toward chat systems like Gitter where the conversation is saved.", you know that this also happens on XMPP?

  516. pep.

    pdurbin, now reading that thread, I see "I’ve gravitated toward chat systems like Gitter where the conversation is saved.", you know that this also happens on XMPP?

  517. pdurbin

    Yes, but there is a difference between conversation being saved and conversation (including decision making) being available to read without login on a website. I think the latter is healthy for open source projects. :)

  518. pep.

    Both are possible

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  520. MattJ

    pdurbin, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-04-25#2019-04-25-3565fdd047495c23 for an example of an XSF board meeting logs, for example

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  522. Guus

    pdurbin: as an aside, there's some mix-up of terms going on. What you sent me earlier was a one-on-one message, which is technically different from a private message in a chatroom. The main difference is addressing: your one-on-one to me was addressed directly to me, while a PM in a room is addressed to my nickname in the room.

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  529. pdurbin

    Interesting. I didn't know the difference between a one-to-one message and a PM. Thanks!

  530. Guus

    I just sent you a PM.

  531. pep.

    Lots of people wish there was no difference tbh

  532. Guus

    I also sent you some one-on-one messages, for illustration purposes.

  533. moparisthebest

    Then don't use semi anonymous mucs and there is no difference

  534. pep.

    I strongly believe there is a need for some kind of anonymity, (even just a really small layer hiding quicksy users' jids, for example), but I don't know if full/semi-anon MUCs are the answer to that. In the meantime it's the only thing we have

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  541. pdurbin

    moparisthebest: is this a PM?

  542. moparisthebest

    No, you sent that to the whole channel

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  549. pdurbin

    Ok. What do you call what I just did? Calling it an "@mention" doesn't feel like the right term. There's no @ sign. :)

  550. MattJ

    It is called a mention or a highlight, depending on your background

  551. pdurbin

    That makes sense. Thanks, MattJ.

  552. pdurbin

    I see "Prosody" at the bottom of https://logs.xmpp.org . Is that the software creating public HTML versions of the logs? Are plain text versions created as well?

  553. Guus

    Prosody is an XMPP server implementation, like Openfire

  554. Guus

    Prosody has a plugin that generates those HTML logs.

  555. pdurbin

    Is it a core module?

  556. Guus

    Don't think so, but unsure. Zash or MattJ will be able to answer that.

  557. MattJ

    It's not a core module

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  559. pdurbin

    Is it https://modules.prosody.im/mod_http_muc_log.html ?

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  562. Wiktor

    pdurbin: xmpp:prosody@conference.prosody.im?join may be of interest to you :)

  563. pdurbin

    Wiktor: thanks! I just joined. To be clear, I don't care at this point what XMPP server is used. I'm more interested in the complete solution: public logs for multi user channels. Are there any other examples out there besides https://logs.xmpp.org ?

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  566. jonas’

    not that I knew

  567. Wiktor

    You could ask if ejabberd has something similar. I think their room is xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join

  568. pdurbin

    Thanks. Joined. I'll ask after the current chatter dies down. :)

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  578. pdurbin

    I'm getting the impression that my public log use case is unusual but I was glad to discover that this and a few other channels are logged. Makes sense for meetings especially.

  579. yvo

    I find it not so unusual?

  580. jonas’

    I don’t think it’s too unusual

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  583. pdurbin

    Ok. Good. :)

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  588. Wiktor

    Actually I find the other way also interesting. IIRC Prosody room is not logged and doesn't have MAM enabled. This may be good to foster "no important discussions on chats, use e.g. Email"

  589. pdurbin

    But people love chat, especially Slack.

  590. Zash

    I'm opposed to keeping logs after having seen people get stressed out by feeling like they have to read all of it.

  591. Wiktor

    Not to mention having all messages preserved for eternity :)

  592. Zash

    And becase if it's important it should be written down in the docs or somewhere, not some hard-to-search chat log.

  593. Wiktor

    I actually set 6 month data retention limit in Conversations, also for my family members, no one complained for years :)

  594. Zash

    Yeah, that too. Public records change peoples behavior.

  595. Wiktor

    Zash: write the reasoning somewhere... Sometimes it's good to link to something like this (I'm serious)

  596. pdurbin

    I like preservation. :)

  597. Wiktor

    I mean "why isn't Prosody room logged"

  598. Wiktor

    I'd retain it for a while, for people that left or disconnected, but not long.

  599. Zash

    The pre-MAM built-in MUC history is still there to provide some context of whatever discussion you might be entering into when you join.

  600. Wiktor

    Ah right.

  601. Zash

    Wiktor: Writing down the reasons would be good, indeed.

  602. Zash

    Writing down all the important things that shouldn't be stored in chat logs would also be good, but it turns out that such things don't magically transcribe themselves into the proper place just because you don't keep persistent logs.

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  617. Wiktor

    Zash: yes it doesn't but if you didn't write it down explicitly maybe it wasn't important? :)

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  619. pep.

    I challenge this statement, I really doubt that applies to everything out there :P

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  621. Zash

    What is and what should be aren't always the same.

  622. pep.

    I agree with Zash's last sentence

  623. pep.

    (well the one before that, now)

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  630. Wiktor

    pep.: if it applied to anything I'd attach a formal proof ;) . It's more like a rule of thumb. Compare with how brain remembers, repeated exposure makes it easier to recall. One time events are usually ignored. :)

  631. mr.fister

    » One time events are usually ignored. not if they were very weird, unexpected or bizarre

  632. pdurbin

    I definitely agree that chat logs are no substitute for proper documentation and meeting minutes and all that. I write a ton of documentation for our project. :)

  633. yvo

    it is called "one shot learning" in psychology, a mysterious feature of humans brain.

  634. Zash

    Lots of emotions being involved seems to help. Evolutionary, it makes sense to make you remember that time when you got really scared so you can avoid whatever that was in the future.

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  639. Wiktor

    Indeed. So you don't need chat logs for emotionally charged discussions too! Seems like a good optimization :)

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  704. pdurbin

    I've heard the same thing, that memories are stronger if there's a strong emotion experienced. Not just fear.

  705. yvo

    Flamewars need not to be logged :D.

  706. MattJ

    Yeah, I remember the important part of all of them: I was right

  707. yvo

    Yes, I am right. And you are right MattJ since you share my opinion.

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  709. pdurbin


  710. yvo

    Lets publish a new encryption: whenever people flamewar lets compress it to "I was right". Very small file.

  711. yvo

    All chats about demos can be compressed too.

  712. yvo

    "I am against it."

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  714. pdurbin

    My philosophy is to err on the side of logging and link to the interesting parts. Quote the interesting parts. Learn. Grow.

  715. yvo

    Could be a constant in the db. RIGHT and AGAINST

  716. yvo

    err? pdurbin? I dont get your abbreviation.

  717. pdurbin

    Oh sorry: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/err%20on%20the%20side%20of

  718. pdurbin

    Lean toward.

  719. pdurbin


  720. pdurbin

    Sometimes I say "open source by default".

  721. pdurbin

    The reason I'm here is that this channel is logged. :)

  722. yvo

    ah thx, never met that idiom.

  723. pdurbin


  724. pdurbin

    I have a list of haunts that are all Gitter and logged IRC channels: http://wiki.greptilian.com/haunts . Maybe I'll add this one. It's nice here. :)

  725. pdurbin

    I forgot how nice XMPP is.

  726. yvo

    Take your chance and become also a member of the XSF ;) next chance is soon: in May,

  727. yvo

    Take your chance and become also a member of the XSF ;) next chance is soon: in May, pdurbin.

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  736. flow

    Is there an easy to type character that is not valid in any JID part?

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  739. pdurbin

    How much does it cost to be a member?

  740. Zash

    pdurbin: In the XSF? A few minutes of your time to type up a membership application.

  741. Zash

    flow: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.3.1 (except @ and /) are probably the easest to type, remember and find

  742. Zash

    Hm wait are those legal in resources?

  743. pdurbin

    I can probably afford a few minutes. Thanks. :)

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  747. MattJ

    Zash, @ and / are legal

  748. Zash

    MattJ: I know that, I though the other ones were't legal in resources. Turns out they are. Meh.

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