XSF Discussion - 2019-04-30

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  17. atomicbutter

    Subscribe to this channel and share it with your friends! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJMr4LzZvisWnfK1Ilk2RnQ?view_as=subscriber

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  19. moparisthebest

    Can anyone ban this jerk

  20. Zash


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  90. jonas’

    !summon MattJ

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  101. MattJ

    I would if I knew the JID

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  104. Arc


  105. intosi

    /affiliation outcast atomicbutter

  106. intosi

    My magic powers don't work ;)

  107. intosi

    Ah, they do now. He's banned.

  108. intosi

    Or she. Who knows.

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  111. Arc

    anyone on who's familiar with prosody?

  112. mikaela

    Is there some more fornal method of finding out who have power and reporting a distruption in a MUC to them or does it need digging the user list or weird magic?

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  116. MattJ

    Arc: yes? :)

  117. MattJ

    mikaela: your client should typically show this info

  118. intosi

    arc: you should trust this MattJ person, he seems to know the authors of Prosody.

  119. edhelas

    I'm not trusting MattJ, he knows those Prosody authors

  120. MattJ

    It's something of an obsession. I know what one of them had for breakfast.

  121. Guus

    You're not keeping them in your basement, feeding them breakfast, are you?

  122. edhelas

    MattJ those people are doing Lua things I heard, you should be cautious

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  124. Arc

    uh-o. i let my server certs expire again

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  136. Guus

    Arc, fwiw, I'm seeing two of you.

  137. Guus

    Arc and arc.

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  140. pep.

    Let me guess, conversation using localpart and not conversation :p

  141. Ge0rG

    Nicknames are HARD.

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  143. Mill


  144. MattJ

    Ge0rG, yes, everything is hard :/

  145. MattJ

    Hi Mill

  146. Mill

    I live in a very cencored country, I started using Tor recently. Any tips?

  147. jonas’


  148. MattJ

    FWIW we're looking at adding more restrictions to nicks in MUC in Prosody (so case differences only would be disallowed, as well as nicks that could be confused due to unicode, etc.)

  149. Mill

    I am connecting through port 9150 which is on tor I think.

  150. Mill

    Any good xmpp servers that don't log?

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  152. Ge0rG

    There is a huge spam problem in Jabber, and servers that don't log typically can't or won't prevent outgoing spam. Trying to be anonymous is hard.

  153. Mill

    There is wallstreetjabber.biz

  154. Mill

    I am not sure if they really don't log

  155. jonas’

    you can never be sure

  156. Guus

    Run your own server if you want to be sure!

  157. Mill

    Well, how can i do that without revealing my location?

  158. MattJ

    Let's break this down - what are you worried about the server logging?

  159. MattJ

    If it's your IP/location, this is already anonymized by tor

  160. Mill

    So I don't have to worry about the logging?

  161. MattJ

    If it's message contents you worry about, use OMEMO or OTR (and make sure you verify your contacts' fingerprints)

  162. Mill

    I added OTR to my client but how to add OMEMO?

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  165. Mill

    And which is better to use?

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  167. MattJ

    What you can't prevent is the XMPP server may log your JID (address) and the JIDs you communicate, so just make sure that address can't be linked to your offline identity

  168. jonas’

    depends on which client you use

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  170. MattJ

    Both are considered secure, OMEMO tends to work better with XMPP because it supports things like multiple devices

  171. Mill

    Alright, I am using pidgin, how do I add OMEMO to it?

  172. Mill

    Running on a Tor/Socks5 proxy Localhost port 9150

  173. jonas’

    Mill, there are a few crappy plugins to choose from. from my experience, none of them work good.

  174. Mill

    I have OTR installed. If you think pidgin isn't good, what client should I use?

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  176. vanitasvitae

    Mill: try gajim or dino

  177. Mill

    And is using localhost and port 9150 safe?

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  180. MattJ

    Yes if all your traffic goes through it. I'm no tor user, I think leaking DNS may be a common issue

  181. Mill

    I just shut tor and It's still working, did I do something wrong?

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  183. jonas’

    do we have protocol to mark a message as "not worthy to create a notification or mark conversation as unread"?

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  185. jonas’

    thinking of annotational bot replies to links

  186. Ge0rG

    type=headline :>

  187. MattJ

    jonas’, I'd love that

  188. jonas’

    Ge0rG, in a MUC?

  189. Ge0rG

    Sure, just implement special handling in the MUC

  190. MattJ

    Ge0rG, what about MUC->clients?

  191. Ge0rG

    MattJ: interesting things will happen when a MUC sends type=headline to a client

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  193. MattJ

    I'm sure

  194. jonas’

    pidgin will probably show a focus-stealing window \o/

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  196. Ge0rG

    Message Hints got killed for formal reasons, more or less.

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  215. Link Mauve

    “23:29:29 flow> Is there an easy to type character that is not valid in any JID part?”, non-breakable space is both easy to type and invalid in a JID, but gets converted into a space by stringprep.

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  222. eevvoor

    Ge0rG, how hard are Nicknames, NP or worse?

  223. pep.

    Worse. That needs people discussing and agreeing on things

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  229. flow

    Link Mauve, thanks, but am I am really looking for an invalid char, not one that gets mapped into another one

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  231. jonas’

    flow, invalid in *all* parts && easy to type is not going to happen I’m afraid

  232. jonas’

    resourcepart allows pretty much all easy to type things

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  235. flow

    hmm depends on the definition of easy to type ;)

  236. jonas’

    what’s your use-case?

  237. flow

    jonas’, saving a cropus of JIDs together with their normalized forms of local- domain- and resourcepart

  238. flow


  239. flow

    and I am looking for a chracter which acts as separator of the parts

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  241. flow

    Right now ASCII's unit separator is the best thing I came up with

  242. jonas’

    newline should work too

  243. jonas’

    pretty sure that’s invalid in all JID parts

  244. jonas’

    or tab maybe?

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  246. jonas’

    that might be allowed as input in resourcepart (before normalisation) though

  247. jonas’

    hm, the same might hold for newline

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  249. flow

    jonas’, newline gets also mapped to space

  250. flow

    in some parts at least

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  252. jonas’


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  254. jonas’

    your best bet is probably using a structured file format with escaping

  255. jonas’

    such as XML or JSON

  256. flow

    jonas’, I tried to avoid that

  257. jonas’

    although I’d suggest to NOT use JSON because its unicode support is terrible

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  259. jonas’

    flow, you could base64 all the parts

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  262. jonas’

    or do it like ldif, base64 only those parts which contain meta-characters used in your file format and prefix those with a colon or something ;)

  263. flow

    jonas’, my goal was that the corpus file is directly editable and viewable

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  267. Ge0rG

    I suggest going with ASCII Record Separators.

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  272. Zash

    > your best bet is probably using a structured file format with escaping > such as XML or JSON This is what I said.

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  315. pdurbin

    Ok, I just installed Monal as suggested yesterday but I still can't see any history for one-to-one messages that took place on other clients. Again, Slack does this very well.

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  318. jubalh

    is <thread> still used in <message> ?

  319. jonas’

    jubalh, not really

  320. jonas’

    pdurbin, were you using OMEMO?

  321. Zash

    And/or does your server support archiving / MAM?

  322. pdurbin

    I don't know. Maybe. I'm new to using XMPP again after 10 years off. I do think that perhaps Conversations especially likes to use OMEMO.

  323. jonas’

    yeah, it’s enabled by default by default I think

  324. pdurbin

    How can I tell if my server (FSF's server) supports MAM?

  325. jonas’

    conversations tells you that, check the account settings, three-dot-menu -> show server details or something like that

  326. jubalh

    jonas’, what was it ever used for? i dont quite get how it woul be presented visually in a client

  327. jonas’

    jubalh, other chat systems do have the notion of threads

  328. pdurbin

    For the FSF server it says "XEP-0313: MAM unavailable." :(

  329. jubalh

    jonas’, emails yeah, but was there any xmpp client having this? what did it look like?

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  332. jonas’

    I’m not saying XMPP

  333. jubalh

    I read what you say

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  335. jubalh

    i'm not blind dude

  336. jubalh

    but did you read my question?

  337. jonas’

    no, there was no XMPP client

  338. jonas’

    as far as I know

  339. jonas’

    zulip is a chat system (which is not XMPP) does have threads

  340. Kev

    Process One's allowed concurrent discussion threads.

  341. jubalh

    I see, thanks. So it was more like in the original spec <thread> was described but this was actually never used/implemented

  342. jonas’

    zulip is a chat system (which is not XMPP) which does have threads

  343. Kev

    I remember them making a big deal about it at the time.

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  345. jubalh

    I see, I'll have to look that up

  346. Zash

    XMPP/Jabber was supposed to bridge all the various chat systems together, and thus needed a way to transport thread info from those.

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  348. jubalh

    ok, makes sense. i just read about it in "practical xmpp" and it sounded like it was a thing in XMPP IM. but now I understand what was meant

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  350. flow

    IIRC (Google|Apache) Wave was also using <thread/>

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  353. Ge0rG

    > This server could not prove that it is mail.jabber.org; its security certificate expired 2 days ago. Is that an iteam thing or a jabber.org thing?

  354. Ge0rG

    MattJ: maybe you know? ^

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  365. intosi

    iteam, and I'm looking at it.

  366. Ge0rG

    intosi: thanks

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  368. Ge0rG

    Speaking of iteam. Are we using Docker / Docker Hub for our website builds?

  369. Zash

    I believe so?

  370. jonas’


  371. Ge0rG


  372. jonas’

    ah yes, I meant to look into that when I got the email

  373. jonas’

    looks as if everything is still linked up correctly

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  375. Ge0rG

    does that mean we were not compromised because our infra wasn't reset?

  376. jonas’

    didn’t they only lose some user data?

  377. Ge0rG


  378. Ge0rG

    I don't know, I didn't look into it

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  425. intosi

    The cert of mail.jabber.org has been renewed.

  426. Kev


  427. peter

    Thanks, intosi. I looked at that last night but ran into Python issues.

  428. intosi

    Yeah, so did I. I used our mutual friend eos to help out.

  429. peter

    aha :-)

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  454. dwd

    Well, this is fun. I'm now unemployed.

  455. jonas’

    is that a good thing?

  456. Guus


  457. Guus

    Fashion wasn't agreeing with you?

  458. Zash

    You solved all the problems in fashion and they didn't need you anymore?

  459. dwd

    I didn't agree with fashion. :-)

  460. dwd

    Zash, Actually, yes, that. We'll go along with that.

  461. Guus

    > I didn't agree with fashion. :-) I'm no longer allowed to make that statement.

  462. Guus

    Unemployment was unexpected?

  463. dwd

    Well, I initiated the departure, but it's all happened mighty quick. Which is a good thing, all things considered.

  464. dwd

    Anyway, I must go cook dinner, I just thought I'd share my Affiliation Change.

  465. Guus

    Good luck!

  466. dwd

    Tomorrow I get to find out who this "Jeremy Kyle" person is that everyone keeps telling me I should watch.

  467. jonas’

    dwd, well, good luck to you :)

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  469. intosi

    dwd: good luck with daytime TV :)

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  471. Guus

    I for one welcome back our project leading overlord. 😁

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  516. Ge0rG

    So we are going to see more agendas published in time for Meetings, then? Congratulations and/or sympathies, in the appropriate mix, to dwd

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  521. Guus

    Mix. Pun intended?

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  530. Ge0rG

    No, I'm an evil sarcastic bastard, but sometimes I pretend to feign human emotion. And in this case I just didn't see the opportunity...

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