XSF Discussion - 2019-05-02

I just posted this: https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901/14

pdurbin: 👍

sup

Good morning to you too

The main question in my post above: Where would visual design and user experience discussions about XMPP clients take place?

I would guess that here or xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join or xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join would work.

Tho here is more meant for protocol discussion than implementation things.

It's pretty much the same set of people regardless of where you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much :)

Here is fine with me. :)

Zash: some people want to keep this place for protocol discussion only, because they tend to read up their backlogs. So it wouldbe good to separate it that way.

The modernxmpp room is probably closest in focus, altho more towards UX than graphical/visual design I guess.

I don't know how to read that

I'd imagine most kinds of design have some overlap with each other.

Graphics/Visual Design ⊂ UX ✏

I'd prefer this channel because it's logged.

Let's draw Venn diagrams all day long.

jonas’: Neat. Tho I don't have that much of a math/logic background to read that either.

Something something UX of Unicode

Zash, "is a subset of"

or "is contained in"

And here I say something about UX without graphics or something

there was a job board planned for XMPP no ?

edhelas: yes

pdurbin, ah, turning on logging for the modernxmpp chat is on my short-term todo, I just haven't had much time for such admin tasks recently

MattJ: that would be great!

MattJ: want me to create a GitHub issue?

That would be great, thanks

MattJ: done: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/20

Thanks :)

sure :)

I just created this "Document how to set up a Gitter-like user experience" issue as well: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/21

Is this only about room logs pdurbin? I'd love to see xmpp web client with such high quality / UX as gitter...

The room log thing is a single purpose read-only room log view.

pdurbin: Check out https://chat.prosody.im/ or https://xmpp.org/chat

Zash, maybe we could make the links buttons

maybe

Can a button be an xmpp: link tho?

Just give the <a> round borders and a background :)

Go for it

Guus, iirc you said you couldn't make the meeting this week, but you're the only one here. Did we agree to skip or what?

I actually apologized for last week.

This week, I'm simply late 🙂

but if it's just the two of us...

Seve, ping

Too many nicks :)

Ralph is in a plane, and nyco also apologised iirc

Ok, we can skip then I think

ok

So you have free time to fiddle with that CSS then? ;)

Free time?

I'd like to hear more

Hah! Yesterday, I overheard two guys discuss prices of GPU-based cloud servers (and that they're insanely expensive).

I asked why they wanted that power. One guy laughed, pointed at the other guy, and said: "he wants to rotate a css object"

I stopped asking questions at that point.

And backed away slowly?

:D

"he wants to run a Matrix instance for 100 users"

You have weekly meetings here?

Yes

The XSF board has meetings here and the council has weekly meetings in xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org?join

As a member should I participate in some meetings? I've applied for membership for Q2.

eevvoor: as a member you only must attend the quarterly membership meetings (or vote in advance), but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings

we are looking for volunteers to write the meeting minutes

Members vote on membership applications, as well as applications to the board and to council.

You write minutes of a chat? wow. Yes I'll attend end of may of course. Thus no more duties concerning meetings, I see.

"but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings" you don't actually have to be a member for that

pep. yes ;)

What are your expections for a member?

Vote on the things. :)

Being an active participant in the community and standards process doesn't hurt of course, but you don't really need to be a member for that.

You do if you want to be part of some teams that board defined I guess, but yeah otherwise you mostly don't

Do you even need to be a member for those?

You do vote for council and board, so you get to shape the future of the foundation :)

dunno, I'd think so

There are some kind of focus groups that can be created where I only think the chair needs to be a member, or something like that

Might be different from teams tho

I meant it the other way round: are there situiations where you don't accept the membership application?

there are some rules for when they should be rejected

like if there are too many from the same organization already accepted, or if it's of the wrong form

It's very rare that someone doesn't get accepted

Zash, you need to be a member to be an editor for example

I think at least

Is there any indication of consensus on references using bytes or... glyphs or codepoints or...?

Just had possibly our first interop problem due to this 'TODO' :)

(I'm really not a fan of accepting XEPs with 'TODO' comments FWIW)

MattJ, I strongly suggest codepoints

Sam strongly suggests bytes

I'd go with codepoints

given that we operate on top of XML, codepoints (or XML’s version of that) seems like the only sensible thing to do

It would just be painful to count bytes (of UTF-8?) if your internal representation of the data is in UTF-16 or something, which isn't uncommon

yeah, think javascript

although javascript will have a pain anyways because UTF-16

adn I think we can all agree that counting UTF-16 things is the worst of all worlds

If you have a Python background then codepoints obviously make sense, if you have a C background bytes make sense, if you have a Lua background the whole thing is irrelevant because the index should start at 1

Counting UTF8 bytes when you have UTF-16 seems ... not fun

Hhahaha

It looks like Converse.js is using codepoints

A world of pain, and then there is "💩".length === 2

Well if you have UTF-16 then you get to deal with that fun

If references is counting codepoints (or even bytes) should we be normalizing the text first?

text as on the wire

otherwise you’re up for lots of fun with unicode versions

please what ever i can determine with len(string) in python, thanks

lovetox, codepoints

and bytes makes not a lot of sense to me, because the xml comes encoded, to deal with it in any way, i have to decode it, so now i dont have bytes anymore

I propose "non-ascii unsupported" >:)

then i pick the body, than re encode the body to utf8 then count?

sounds shitty

lovetox, agreed

lovetox, but XML implementations in C and other lower level languages will typically give you UTF-8

Your problems are alien to me, but I can imagine how that might be a pain

so there’s an argument for that, too

yeah, sorry python noob here :/

MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are out ✏

Maybe one day we'll have utf8 aware pattern matching too

I think rust has it

Zash, ITYM Unicode-aware? :(

No, I did not

Lua has some utf8-specific stuff in recent versions, but no other unicode things.