XSF Discussion - 2019-05-02

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  172. pdurbin I just posted this: https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901/14
  173. Ge0rG pdurbin: 👍
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  175. (◠_◠✿)Demon(◕‿◕✿) sup
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  177. Zash Good morning to you too
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  182. pdurbin The main question in my post above: Where would visual design and user experience discussions about XMPP clients take place?
  183. Zash I would guess that here or xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join or xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join would work.
  184. eevvoor has left
  185. Zash Tho here is more meant for protocol discussion than implementation things.
  186. Zash It's pretty much the same set of people regardless of where you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much :)
  187. pdurbin Here is fine with me. :)
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  190. Ge0rG Zash: some people want to keep this place for protocol discussion only, because they tend to read up their backlogs. So it wouldbe good to separate it that way.
  191. Zash The modernxmpp room is probably closest in focus, altho more towards UX than graphical/visual design I guess.
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  194. jonas’ Graphics/Visual Design \subset UX
  195. Zash I don't know how to read that
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  197. Zash I'd imagine most kinds of design have some overlap with each other.
  198. jonas’ Graphics/Visual Design ⊂ UX
  199. pdurbin I'd prefer this channel because it's logged.
  200. Ge0rG Let's draw Venn diagrams all day long.
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  202. Zash jonas’: Neat. Tho I don't have that much of a math/logic background to read that either.
  203. Zash Something something UX of Unicode
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  206. jonas’ Zash, "is a subset of"
  207. jonas’ or "is contained in"
  208. Zash And here I say something about UX without graphics or something
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  214. edhelas there was a job board planned for XMPP no ?
  215. Ge0rG edhelas: yes
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  219. MattJ pdurbin, ah, turning on logging for the modernxmpp chat is on my short-term todo, I just haven't had much time for such admin tasks recently
  220. pdurbin MattJ: that would be great!
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  224. pdurbin MattJ: want me to create a GitHub issue?
  225. MattJ That would be great, thanks
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  228. pdurbin MattJ: done: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/20
  229. MattJ Thanks :)
  230. pdurbin sure :)
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  240. pdurbin I just created this "Document how to set up a Gitter-like user experience" issue as well: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/21
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  246. Wiktor Is this only about room logs pdurbin? I'd love to see xmpp web client with such high quality / UX as gitter...
  247. Zash The room log thing is a single purpose read-only room log view.
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  249. Zash pdurbin: Check out https://chat.prosody.im/ or https://xmpp.org/chat
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  254. MattJ Zash, maybe we could make the links buttons
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  256. Zash maybe
  257. Zash Can a button be an xmpp: link tho?
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  259. MattJ Just give the <a> round borders and a background :)
  260. Zash Go for it
  261. MattJ Guus, iirc you said you couldn't make the meeting this week, but you're the only one here. Did we agree to skip or what?
  262. Guus I actually apologized for last week.
  263. Guus This week, I'm simply late 🙂
  264. Guus but if it's just the two of us...
  265. MattJ Seve, ping
  266. MattJ Too many nicks :)
  267. Guus Ralph is in a plane, and nyco also apologised iirc
  268. MattJ Ok, we can skip then I think
  269. Guus ok
  270. Zash So you have free time to fiddle with that CSS then? ;)
  271. MattJ Free time?
  272. MattJ I'd like to hear more
  273. Guus Hah! Yesterday, I overheard two guys discuss prices of GPU-based cloud servers (and that they're insanely expensive).
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  275. Guus I asked why they wanted that power. One guy laughed, pointed at the other guy, and said: "he wants to rotate a css object"
  276. Guus I stopped asking questions at that point.
  277. Zash And backed away slowly?
  278. MattJ :D
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  284. edhelas "he wants to run a Matrix instance for 100 users"
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  334. eevvoor You have weekly meetings here?
  335. Zash Yes
  336. Zash The XSF board has meetings here and the council has weekly meetings in xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org?join
  337. eevvoor As a member should I participate in some meetings? I've applied for membership for Q2.
  338. Ge0rG eevvoor: as a member you only must attend the quarterly membership meetings (or vote in advance), but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings
  339. Ge0rG we are looking for volunteers to write the meeting minutes
  340. Zash Members vote on membership applications, as well as applications to the board and to council.
  341. eevvoor You write minutes of a chat? wow. Yes I'll attend end of may of course. Thus no more duties concerning meetings, I see.
  342. pep. "but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings" you don't actually have to be a member for that
  343. eevvoor pep. yes ;)
  344. eevvoor What are your expections for a member?
  345. Zash Vote on the things. :)
  346. Zash Being an active participant in the community and standards process doesn't hurt of course, but you don't really need to be a member for that.
  347. pep. You do if you want to be part of some teams that board defined I guess, but yeah otherwise you mostly don't
  348. Zash Do you even need to be a member for those?
  349. pep. You do vote for council and board, so you get to shape the future of the foundation :)
  350. pep. dunno, I'd think so
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  353. Zash There are some kind of focus groups that can be created where I only think the chair needs to be a member, or something like that
  354. Zash Might be different from teams tho
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  358. eevvoor I meant it the other way round: are there situiations where you don't accept the membership application?
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  360. Zash there are some rules for when they should be rejected
  361. Zash like if there are too many from the same organization already accepted, or if it's of the wrong form
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  364. MattJ It's very rare that someone doesn't get accepted
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  499. jonas’ Zash, you need to be a member to be an editor for example
  500. jonas’ I think at least
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  513. MattJ Is there any indication of consensus on references using bytes or... glyphs or codepoints or...?
  514. MattJ Just had possibly our first interop problem due to this 'TODO' :)
  515. MattJ (I'm really not a fan of accepting XEPs with 'TODO' comments FWIW)
  516. jonas’ MattJ, I strongly suggest codepoints
  517. jonas’ Sam strongly suggests bytes
  518. Zash I'd go with codepoints
  519. jonas’ given that we operate on top of XML, codepoints (or XML’s version of that) seems like the only sensible thing to do
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  521. Zash It would just be painful to count bytes (of UTF-8?) if your internal representation of the data is in UTF-16 or something, which isn't uncommon
  522. jonas’ yeah, think javascript
  523. jonas’ although javascript will have a pain anyways because UTF-16
  524. jonas’ adn I think we can all agree that counting UTF-16 things is the worst of all worlds
  525. MattJ If you have a Python background then codepoints obviously make sense, if you have a C background bytes make sense, if you have a Lua background the whole thing is irrelevant because the index should start at 1
  526. Zash Counting UTF8 bytes when you have UTF-16 seems ... not fun
  527. Zash Hhahaha
  528. MattJ It looks like Converse.js is using codepoints
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  531. Ge0rG A world of pain, and then there is "💩".length === 2
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  533. Zash Well if you have UTF-16 then you get to deal with that fun
  534. dwd If references is counting codepoints (or even bytes) should we be normalizing the text first?
  535. jonas’ text as on the wire
  536. jonas’ otherwise you’re up for lots of fun with unicode versions
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  540. lovetox please what ever i can determine with len(string) in python, thanks
  541. jonas’ lovetox, codepoints
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  544. lovetox and bytes makes not a lot of sense to me, because the xml comes encoded, to deal with it in any way, i have to decode it, so now i dont have bytes anymore
  545. moparisthebest I propose "non-ascii unsupported" >:)
  546. lovetox then i pick the body, than re encode the body to utf8 then count?
  547. lovetox sounds shitty
  548. jonas’ lovetox, agreed
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  550. jonas’ lovetox, but XML implementations in C and other lower level languages will typically give you UTF-8
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  552. MattJ Your problems are alien to me, but I can imagine how that might be a pain
  553. jonas’ so there’s an argument for that, too
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  556. lovetox yeah, sorry python noob here :/
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  561. Ge0rG MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are our
  562. Ge0rG MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are out
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  575. Zash Maybe one day we'll have utf8 aware pattern matching too
  576. moparisthebest I think rust has it
  577. jonas’ Zash, ITYM Unicode-aware? :(
  578. Zash No, I did not
  579. Zash Lua has some utf8-specific stuff in recent versions, but no other unicode things.
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