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pdurbin
I just posted this: https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901/14
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Ge0rG
pdurbin: 👍
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(◠_◠✿)Demon(◕‿◕✿)
sup
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Zash
Good morning to you too
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pdurbin
The main question in my post above: Where would visual design and user experience discussions about XMPP clients take place?
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Zash
I would guess that here or xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join or xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join would work.
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Zash
Tho here is more meant for protocol discussion than implementation things.
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Zash
It's pretty much the same set of people regardless of where you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much :)
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pdurbin
Here is fine with me. :)
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Ge0rG
Zash: some people want to keep this place for protocol discussion only, because they tend to read up their backlogs. So it wouldbe good to separate it that way.
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Zash
The modernxmpp room is probably closest in focus, altho more towards UX than graphical/visual design I guess.
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jonas’
Graphics/Visual Design \subset UX✎ -
Zash
I don't know how to read that
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Zash
I'd imagine most kinds of design have some overlap with each other.
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jonas’
Graphics/Visual Design ⊂ UX ✏
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pdurbin
I'd prefer this channel because it's logged.
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Ge0rG
Let's draw Venn diagrams all day long.
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Zash
jonas’: Neat. Tho I don't have that much of a math/logic background to read that either.
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Zash
Something something UX of Unicode
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jonas’
Zash, "is a subset of"
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jonas’
or "is contained in"
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Zash
And here I say something about UX without graphics or something
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edhelas
there was a job board planned for XMPP no ?
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Ge0rG
edhelas: yes
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MattJ
pdurbin, ah, turning on logging for the modernxmpp chat is on my short-term todo, I just haven't had much time for such admin tasks recently
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pdurbin
MattJ: that would be great!
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pdurbin
MattJ: want me to create a GitHub issue?
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MattJ
That would be great, thanks
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pdurbin
MattJ: done: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/20
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MattJ
Thanks :)
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pdurbin
sure :)
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pdurbin
I just created this "Document how to set up a Gitter-like user experience" issue as well: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/21
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Wiktor
Is this only about room logs pdurbin? I'd love to see xmpp web client with such high quality / UX as gitter...
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Zash
The room log thing is a single purpose read-only room log view.
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Zash
pdurbin: Check out https://chat.prosody.im/ or https://xmpp.org/chat
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MattJ
Zash, maybe we could make the links buttons
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Zash
maybe
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Zash
Can a button be an xmpp: link tho?
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MattJ
Just give the <a> round borders and a background :)
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Zash
Go for it
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MattJ
Guus, iirc you said you couldn't make the meeting this week, but you're the only one here. Did we agree to skip or what?
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Guus
I actually apologized for last week.
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Guus
This week, I'm simply late 🙂
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Guus
but if it's just the two of us...
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MattJ
Seve, ping
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MattJ
Too many nicks :)
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Guus
Ralph is in a plane, and nyco also apologised iirc
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MattJ
Ok, we can skip then I think
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Guus
ok
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Zash
So you have free time to fiddle with that CSS then? ;)
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MattJ
Free time?
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MattJ
I'd like to hear more
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Guus
Hah! Yesterday, I overheard two guys discuss prices of GPU-based cloud servers (and that they're insanely expensive).
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Guus
I asked why they wanted that power. One guy laughed, pointed at the other guy, and said: "he wants to rotate a css object"
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Guus
I stopped asking questions at that point.
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Zash
And backed away slowly?
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MattJ
:D
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edhelas
"he wants to run a Matrix instance for 100 users"
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eevvoor
You have weekly meetings here?
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Zash
Yes
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Zash
The XSF board has meetings here and the council has weekly meetings in xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org?join
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eevvoor
As a member should I participate in some meetings? I've applied for membership for Q2.
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Ge0rG
eevvoor: as a member you only must attend the quarterly membership meetings (or vote in advance), but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings
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Ge0rG
we are looking for volunteers to write the meeting minutes
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Zash
Members vote on membership applications, as well as applications to the board and to council.
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eevvoor
You write minutes of a chat? wow. Yes I'll attend end of may of course. Thus no more duties concerning meetings, I see.
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pep.
"but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings" you don't actually have to be a member for that
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eevvoor
pep. yes ;)
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eevvoor
What are your expections for a member?
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Zash
Vote on the things. :)
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Zash
Being an active participant in the community and standards process doesn't hurt of course, but you don't really need to be a member for that.
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pep.
You do if you want to be part of some teams that board defined I guess, but yeah otherwise you mostly don't
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Zash
Do you even need to be a member for those?
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pep.
You do vote for council and board, so you get to shape the future of the foundation :)
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pep.
dunno, I'd think so
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Zash
There are some kind of focus groups that can be created where I only think the chair needs to be a member, or something like that
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Zash
Might be different from teams tho
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eevvoor
I meant it the other way round: are there situiations where you don't accept the membership application?
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Zash
there are some rules for when they should be rejected
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Zash
like if there are too many from the same organization already accepted, or if it's of the wrong form
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MattJ
It's very rare that someone doesn't get accepted
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jonas’
Zash, you need to be a member to be an editor for example
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jonas’
I think at least
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MattJ
Is there any indication of consensus on references using bytes or... glyphs or codepoints or...?
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MattJ
Just had possibly our first interop problem due to this 'TODO' :)
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MattJ
(I'm really not a fan of accepting XEPs with 'TODO' comments FWIW)
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jonas’
MattJ, I strongly suggest codepoints
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jonas’
Sam strongly suggests bytes
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Zash
I'd go with codepoints
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jonas’
given that we operate on top of XML, codepoints (or XML’s version of that) seems like the only sensible thing to do
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Zash
It would just be painful to count bytes (of UTF-8?) if your internal representation of the data is in UTF-16 or something, which isn't uncommon
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jonas’
yeah, think javascript
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jonas’
although javascript will have a pain anyways because UTF-16
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jonas’
adn I think we can all agree that counting UTF-16 things is the worst of all worlds
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MattJ
If you have a Python background then codepoints obviously make sense, if you have a C background bytes make sense, if you have a Lua background the whole thing is irrelevant because the index should start at 1
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Zash
Counting UTF8 bytes when you have UTF-16 seems ... not fun
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Zash
Hhahaha
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MattJ
It looks like Converse.js is using codepoints
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Ge0rG
A world of pain, and then there is "đź’©".length === 2
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Zash
Well if you have UTF-16 then you get to deal with that fun
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dwd
If references is counting codepoints (or even bytes) should we be normalizing the text first?
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jonas’
text as on the wire
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jonas’
otherwise you’re up for lots of fun with unicode versions
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lovetox
please what ever i can determine with len(string) in python, thanks
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jonas’
lovetox, codepoints
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lovetox
and bytes makes not a lot of sense to me, because the xml comes encoded, to deal with it in any way, i have to decode it, so now i dont have bytes anymore
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moparisthebest
I propose "non-ascii unsupported" >:)
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lovetox
then i pick the body, than re encode the body to utf8 then count?
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lovetox
sounds shitty
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jonas’
lovetox, agreed
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jonas’
lovetox, but XML implementations in C and other lower level languages will typically give you UTF-8
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MattJ
Your problems are alien to me, but I can imagine how that might be a pain
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jonas’
so there’s an argument for that, too
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lovetox
yeah, sorry python noob here :/
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Ge0rG
MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are our✎ -
Ge0rG
MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are out ✏
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Zash
Maybe one day we'll have utf8 aware pattern matching too
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moparisthebest
I think rust has it
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jonas’
Zash, ITYM Unicode-aware? :(
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Zash
No, I did not
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Zash
Lua has some utf8-specific stuff in recent versions, but no other unicode things.