XSF Discussion - 2019-05-02

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10:20:11 pdurbin I just posted this: https://discourse.opensourcedesign.net/t/restoring-chat-functionality-collaboration-with-xmpp-community/901/14
10:21:25 Ge0rG pdurbin: 👍
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10:21:52 (◠_◠✿)Demon(◕‿◕✿) sup
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10:24:46 Zash Good morning to you too
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10:56:43 pdurbin The main question in my post above: Where would visual design and user experience discussions about XMPP clients take place?
10:57:52 Zash I would guess that here or xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join or xmpp:modernxmpp@rooms.modernxmpp.org?join would work.
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10:59:33 Zash Tho here is more meant for protocol discussion than implementation things.
11:00:39 Zash It's pretty much the same set of people regardless of where you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much :)
11:01:57 pdurbin Here is fine with me. :)
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11:10:54 Ge0rG Zash: some people want to keep this place for protocol discussion only, because they tend to read up their backlogs. So it wouldbe good to separate it that way.
11:12:32 Zash The modernxmpp room is probably closest in focus, altho more towards UX than graphical/visual design I guess.
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11:16:14 jonas’ Graphics/Visual Design \subset UX
11:16:39 Zash I don't know how to read that
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11:18:16 Zash I'd imagine most kinds of design have some overlap with each other.
11:18:32 jonas’ Graphics/Visual Design ⊂ UX
11:19:05 pdurbin I'd prefer this channel because it's logged.
11:19:10 Ge0rG Let's draw Venn diagrams all day long.
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11:20:11 Zash jonas’: Neat. Tho I don't have that much of a math/logic background to read that either.
11:20:40 Zash Something something UX of Unicode
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11:22:10 jonas’ Zash, "is a subset of"
11:22:23 jonas’ or "is contained in"
11:24:22 Zash And here I say something about UX without graphics or something
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11:56:54 edhelas there was a job board planned for XMPP no ?
11:58:05 Ge0rG edhelas: yes
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12:11:53 MattJ pdurbin, ah, turning on logging for the modernxmpp chat is on my short-term todo, I just haven't had much time for such admin tasks recently
12:22:29 pdurbin MattJ: that would be great!
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12:37:26 pdurbin MattJ: want me to create a GitHub issue?
12:39:23 MattJ That would be great, thanks
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12:42:09 pdurbin MattJ: done: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/20
12:42:17 MattJ Thanks :)
12:42:46 pdurbin sure :)
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12:59:32 pdurbin I just created this "Document how to set up a Gitter-like user experience" issue as well: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/21
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13:14:35 Wiktor Is this only about room logs pdurbin? I'd love to see xmpp web client with such high quality / UX as gitter...
13:16:03 Zash The room log thing is a single purpose read-only room log view.
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13:18:37 Zash pdurbin: Check out https://chat.prosody.im/ or https://xmpp.org/chat
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13:24:30 MattJ Zash, maybe we could make the links buttons
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13:27:15 Zash maybe
13:27:41 Zash Can a button be an xmpp: link tho?
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13:31:27 MattJ Just give the <a> round borders and a background :)
13:31:54 Zash Go for it
13:34:10 MattJ Guus, iirc you said you couldn't make the meeting this week, but you're the only one here. Did we agree to skip or what?
13:34:37 Guus I actually apologized for last week.
13:34:43 Guus This week, I'm simply late 🙂
13:34:51 Guus but if it's just the two of us...
13:35:25 MattJ Seve, ping
13:35:44 MattJ Too many nicks :)
13:36:01 Guus Ralph is in a plane, and nyco also apologised iirc
13:36:12 MattJ Ok, we can skip then I think
13:36:21 Guus ok
13:36:48 Zash So you have free time to fiddle with that CSS then? ;)
13:37:04 MattJ Free time?
13:37:19 MattJ I'd like to hear more
13:37:22 Guus Hah! Yesterday, I overheard two guys discuss prices of GPU-based cloud servers (and that they're insanely expensive).
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13:38:10 Guus I asked why they wanted that power. One guy laughed, pointed at the other guy, and said: "he wants to rotate a css object"
13:38:34 Guus I stopped asking questions at that point.
13:38:46 Zash And backed away slowly?
13:38:53 MattJ :D
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13:41:31 edhelas "he wants to run a Matrix instance for 100 users"
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15:51:42 eevvoor You have weekly meetings here?
15:52:15 Zash Yes
15:52:52 Zash The XSF board has meetings here and the council has weekly meetings in xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org?join
15:55:51 eevvoor As a member should I participate in some meetings? I've applied for membership for Q2.
15:56:37 Ge0rG eevvoor: as a member you only must attend the quarterly membership meetings (or vote in advance), but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings
15:56:50 Ge0rG we are looking for volunteers to write the meeting minutes
15:57:32 Zash Members vote on membership applications, as well as applications to the board and to council.
15:57:50 eevvoor You write minutes of a chat? wow. Yes I'll attend end of may of course. Thus no more duties concerning meetings, I see.
15:58:09 pep. "but you are allowed to listen in on any meetings" you don't actually have to be a member for that
15:58:26 eevvoor pep. yes ;)
15:58:54 eevvoor What are your expections for a member?
15:59:11 Zash Vote on the things. :)
16:01:12 Zash Being an active participant in the community and standards process doesn't hurt of course, but you don't really need to be a member for that.
16:01:45 pep. You do if you want to be part of some teams that board defined I guess, but yeah otherwise you mostly don't
16:02:22 Zash Do you even need to be a member for those?
16:02:23 pep. You do vote for council and board, so you get to shape the future of the foundation :)
16:02:36 pep. dunno, I'd think so
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16:03:32 Zash There are some kind of focus groups that can be created where I only think the chair needs to be a member, or something like that
16:03:41 Zash Might be different from teams tho
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16:10:06 eevvoor I meant it the other way round: are there situiations where you don't accept the membership application?
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16:10:43 Zash there are some rules for when they should be rejected
16:11:10 Zash like if there are too many from the same organization already accepted, or if it's of the wrong form
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16:16:45 MattJ It's very rare that someone doesn't get accepted
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18:01:39 jonas’ Zash, you need to be a member to be an editor for example
18:01:47 jonas’ I think at least
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19:10:53 MattJ Is there any indication of consensus on references using bytes or... glyphs or codepoints or...?
19:11:27 MattJ Just had possibly our first interop problem due to this 'TODO' :)
19:11:56 MattJ (I'm really not a fan of accepting XEPs with 'TODO' comments FWIW)
19:12:13 jonas’ MattJ, I strongly suggest codepoints
19:12:22 jonas’ Sam strongly suggests bytes
19:12:36 Zash I'd go with codepoints
19:12:47 jonas’ given that we operate on top of XML, codepoints (or XML’s version of that) seems like the only sensible thing to do
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19:13:33 Zash It would just be painful to count bytes (of UTF-8?) if your internal representation of the data is in UTF-16 or something, which isn't uncommon
19:13:41 jonas’ yeah, think javascript
19:13:48 jonas’ although javascript will have a pain anyways because UTF-16
19:14:00 jonas’ adn I think we can all agree that counting UTF-16 things is the worst of all worlds
19:14:15 MattJ If you have a Python background then codepoints obviously make sense, if you have a C background bytes make sense, if you have a Lua background the whole thing is irrelevant because the index should start at 1
19:14:24 Zash Counting UTF8 bytes when you have UTF-16 seems ... not fun
19:14:50 Zash Hhahaha
19:16:34 MattJ It looks like Converse.js is using codepoints
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19:20:49 Ge0rG A world of pain, and then there is "💩".length === 2
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19:22:12 Zash Well if you have UTF-16 then you get to deal with that fun
19:28:03 dwd If references is counting codepoints (or even bytes) should we be normalizing the text first?
19:28:20 jonas’ text as on the wire
19:28:28 jonas’ otherwise you’re up for lots of fun with unicode versions
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19:48:29 lovetox please what ever i can determine with len(string) in python, thanks
19:48:38 jonas’ lovetox, codepoints
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19:49:42 lovetox and bytes makes not a lot of sense to me, because the xml comes encoded, to deal with it in any way, i have to decode it, so now i dont have bytes anymore
19:49:55 moparisthebest I propose "non-ascii unsupported" >:)
19:49:59 lovetox then i pick the body, than re encode the body to utf8 then count?
19:50:02 lovetox sounds shitty
19:50:05 jonas’ lovetox, agreed
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19:50:20 jonas’ lovetox, but XML implementations in C and other lower level languages will typically give you UTF-8
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19:50:26 MattJ Your problems are alien to me, but I can imagine how that might be a pain
19:50:28 jonas’ so there’s an argument for that, too
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19:51:32 lovetox yeah, sorry python noob here :/
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19:57:09 Ge0rG MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are our
19:57:31 Ge0rG MattJ: your language does pattern matching based on individual bytes, you are out
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20:50:13 Zash Maybe one day we'll have utf8 aware pattern matching too
20:52:34 moparisthebest I think rust has it
20:52:58 jonas’ Zash, ITYM Unicode-aware? :(
20:53:09 Zash No, I did not
20:53:46 Zash Lua has some utf8-specific stuff in recent versions, but no other unicode things.
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