XSF Discussion - 2019-05-08

hello is this doxbin

No, this is the XMPP Standards Foundation

can i talk with a owner/staff alone?

help pls: the owner of what?

so basically i got doxed and they posted it on a website. they told me tto contact xmpp to get it deleted

This is not the place for that.

where do i go then

help pls, did they give you an address?

Xmpp is a protocol

This is where we discuss the protocol itself.

They probably meant to contact them *via* xmpp

HOW DO I INSTALL THAT I DONNT HAVE A BRAINN

Like in "via mail"

yh

they told me that but idk how can someone call me and help

ok nice help

You havent really specified, how we can help you :D

I GOT DOXED AND I WANT THEM TO DELETE IT BUT THEY WONT. they told me to contact kt@neko.im

he said "XMPP is kt@neko.im."

help pls, that is like saying "my cell number is 555-1234"

nice help

help pls, i.e. contact kt@neko.im

HOW DO I CONTACT THEM

how did you join this room?

I'm guessing the web chat

they told me to go on this site

thats all

ah, web chat makes sense

Well you would need to get an actual account somewhere.

help pls, XMPP is like E-Mail for chat. This is a room to discuss how to develop XMPP. That means, we are in no way affiliated with neko.im or your doxxer.

To communicate with another user using XMPP, you need an account.

HOW DO i make an acc

u all confusing why this even a thing

help pls, for example here: https://magicbroccoli.de/register/

fuck doxbin

Kinda sounds like something to talk to the police about tho

that’s true

imma get that site closed

how do i report websites

?

help pls, your local police department

will be able to help you

jonas’: after having conquered xmpp in sed, what about xmpp in css? https://github.com/kkuchta/css-only-chat

nah

xmpp in css with a server-side awk module

it’s not like I hadn’t written a simple HTTP servlet in sed yet ;)

Sed could be the backend

Could be the future of web development

Nah, implement a Lua interpreter in sed, then run Prosody on it with a mod_c2s_css

Css frontend, sed backend

Somehow still better than JavaScript

ge0rg: have you (with council hat and speaking german) heard anything about https://twitter.com/katarinabarley/status/1126122186840989696 ? cc tobias

Hi, this would probably be the place to ask where should I open an issue proposing something similar to Mastodon's rel=me verification for confirming that users on XMPP are who they claim to be? https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Mastodon (However that is probably more of an issue at Matrix, but I think XMPP already implements profiles with URL fields that it would depend on)

Profiles can have URLs, yes.

Is anything checking if those URLs link back to XMPP or would proposing doing that be possible somewhere?

I don't know if anything uses them for anything other than display in an user profile screen

fippo: I'm not aware of any official contact to us. I'm sure by "messenger services" she means the proprietary silos with billions of users, not the federated zombie of a protocol that we maintain...

ge0rg: "dear facebook, please advise how to break your hold on the messenger space"? :-)

It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far

fippo: that's probably how it's going to end up

> It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far Guus, MattJ, ralphm?

Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email?

Is this what Daniel responded to, via twitter?

guus: yes

As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language.

Or English.

That sounds like a thing the EU would mandate

ralphm, a german ministry?

still looking for more context on the original quote. like... a video

> As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language. If your native language is an official EU language, I think yes

mikaela: I'm Dutch

https://fragdenstaat.de/anfrage/herstellung-von-interoperabilitat-zwischen-messenger-diensten-und-der-kontakt-zu-diesen/

ge0rg: brilliant :-)

Ge0rG: Also, I'd ok for a native German speaker to list me as contact on behalf of the XMPP Standards Foundation as its Chair.

Omr2019 seems to be a festival in Hamburg that happened yesterday and today.

And finally, we have Alex.

Who is our Secretary.

ralphm: it might be much faster and less bureaucratic to talk in German to a German ministry. Just saying.

If you'd just stop dubbing foreign media, we'd be in a much better place.

ralphm: I'm sure that it's possible to talk to Ms. Barley regarding a EU regulation in that context, but her being a German electee, and with the upcoming election, I don't know how much she'd listen to foreign citizens.

The EU parliment election?

https://omr.com/festival2019/en/speaker-artists/#katarina-barley

Zash: yeah, that one

Can't you vote for any candidate in the entire EU?

No

Must have misunderstood something then.

But yeah, not listening to people outside of your own country seems to be very common in the EU.

that’s progress over "(not) listening and waging war on them" at least

Zash: people vote for national candidates to represent them in the EU parlement.

jonas’: meh

ralphm: Barley is also prominent for not listening to German population, to the contact that her party made with the other governing party, and to the members of her own party.

*contract ✏

Anyway, I happen to have that little status symbol called Ph.D, which is a significant factor of respect for old school German politicians, I can be sufficiently eloquent in writing, I don't have a desire to push my private pet projects, and I volunteer to represent the XSF

ralphm, I find Ge0rGs suggestion all over all rather sensible. Communicating in german with a german ministry might be the way to go

Guus [22:10]: > Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email? I'm not sure I can manage that in advance to tomorrow's board meeting

Well, I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting tomorrow, because I'm flying, but if you sent a message to board we can vote on list

Isn't it sufficient to have it on trello?

ralphm [22:33]: > if you sent a message to board That awakes sad memories about badly configured mailing lists.

It would be nice to have a bit more context then a oneline summary with links to german things

Ge0rG: that has been resolved, too

People now watch the moderation queue

Of board@?

I'll try to manage a mail tomorrow morning, thanks.

Thanks!

And, as I wrote on Twitter, I'm not sure if regulation to enforce interop will yield a desirable outcome.

I mean sure, it would be great to have all of them connected, preferably using XMPP, but I'm not convinced it would resolve the silo issue much.

Maybe not banning users for using an unofficial client would be a good start already.

That has nothing to do with interop between services

Indirectly.

In fact, if you'd use federation for getting there, it would mean they'd have to open up all the features of their app to be able to be used in a federated setup, which I think is not attainable by legislation.

You couldn't make Snapchat, for example.

The only reason it kinda works, is because they have control over the client.

Once you allow 3rd party clients, or federation, you can no longer ensure stuff is deleted.

There are many cases like this. E.g. deleting messages you sent to a contact in Whatsapp works by asking the receiver to delete.

ralphm: and don't even start thinking of E2EE

So then the question becomes: what are you *actually* asking for.

I'm not interested in pyrrhic victories.

ralphm: message deletion is probably the only relevant case, and that's easily circumvented by screenshotting

I'm not saying those features are waterproof.

There's a difference between screenshotting and being able to create a legitimate client or federated service that doesn't adhere to deletion instructions.

As soon as you allow federation, laying down restrictions or terms of use is almost impossible.

3rd party clients are slightly easier to litigate, maybe

It would be doable to restrict such features to approved local clients.

ralphm: is your point that somebody must define a useful subset of functionality to implement everywhere, or is it that every provider will create arguments why their system must be exempted from federation?

Zash: what does that mean for Snapchat?

ralphm: Self-destructing messages not leaving their own service.

Zash: but the whole point of Snapchat is self-destructing messages.

If the only way to use that service is by being local, it is not interoperable.

That's the trade-off, yes.

And would then not comply with legal requirements to interoperate, if that's mandated.

So, you have to be really careful in figuring out what you ask for.

Ge0rG: I'm afraid that it might only interoperate on paper, and not in reality.

ralphm: this is very much related to my second point

Ge0rG: right. The problem is that problems like this will be presented as attempts to frustrate innovation, and that usually ends in paper tigers.