XSF Discussion - 2019-05-08

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  207. user222 hello is this doxbin
  208. Zash No, this is the XMPP Standards Foundation
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  219. help pls can i talk with a owner/staff alone?
  220. vanitasvitae help pls: the owner of what?
  221. help pls so basically i got doxed and they posted it on a website. they told me tto contact xmpp to get it deleted
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  223. Zash This is not the place for that.
  224. help pls where do i go then
  225. jonas’ help pls, did they give you an address?
  226. vanitasvitae Xmpp is a protocol
  227. Zash This is where we discuss the protocol itself.
  228. vanitasvitae They probably meant to contact them *via* xmpp
  230. vanitasvitae Like in "via mail"
  231. help pls yh
  232. help pls they told me that but idk how can someone call me and help
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  235. help pls ok nice help
  236. vanitasvitae You havent really specified, how we can help you :D
  237. help pls I GOT DOXED AND I WANT THEM TO DELETE IT BUT THEY WONT. they told me to contact kt@neko.im
  238. help pls he said "XMPP is kt@neko.im."
  239. flow help pls, that is like saying "my cell number is 555-1234"
  240. help pls nice help
  241. jonas’ help pls, i.e. contact kt@neko.im
  242. help pls HOW DO I CONTACT THEM
  243. jonas’ how did you join this room?
  244. Zash I'm guessing the web chat
  245. help pls they told me to go on this site
  246. help pls thats all
  247. jonas’ ah, web chat makes sense
  248. Zash Well you would need to get an actual account somewhere.
  249. jonas’ help pls, XMPP is like E-Mail for chat. This is a room to discuss how to develop XMPP. That means, we are in no way affiliated with neko.im or your doxxer.
  250. jonas’ To communicate with another user using XMPP, you need an account.
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  252. help pls HOW DO i make an acc
  253. help pls u all confusing why this even a thing
  254. jonas’ help pls, for example here: https://magicbroccoli.de/register/
  255. help pls fuck doxbin
  256. Zash Kinda sounds like something to talk to the police about tho
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  258. jonas’ that’s true
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  260. help pls imma get that site closed
  261. help pls how do i report websites
  262. help pls ?
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  265. jonas’ help pls, your local police department
  266. jonas’ will be able to help you
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  375. moparisthebest jonas’: after having conquered xmpp in sed, what about xmpp in css? https://github.com/kkuchta/css-only-chat
  376. jonas’ nah
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  378. Ge0rG xmpp in css with a server-side awk module
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  380. jonas’ it’s not like I hadn’t written a simple HTTP servlet in sed yet ;)
  381. moparisthebest Sed could be the backend
  382. moparisthebest Could be the future of web development
  383. Zash Nah, implement a Lua interpreter in sed, then run Prosody on it with a mod_c2s_css
  384. moparisthebest Css frontend, sed backend
  385. moparisthebest Somehow still better than JavaScript
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  425. fippo ge0rg: have you (with council hat and speaking german) heard anything about https://twitter.com/katarinabarley/status/1126122186840989696 ? cc tobias
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  429. mikaela Hi, this would probably be the place to ask where should I open an issue proposing something similar to Mastodon's rel=me verification for confirming that users on XMPP are who they claim to be? https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Mastodon (However that is probably more of an issue at Matrix, but I think XMPP already implements profiles with URL fields that it would depend on)
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  431. Zash Profiles can have URLs, yes.
  432. mikaela Is anything checking if those URLs link back to XMPP or would proposing doing that be possible somewhere?
  433. Zash I don't know if anything uses them for anything other than display in an user profile screen
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  453. Ge0rG fippo: I'm not aware of any official contact to us. I'm sure by "messenger services" she means the proprietary silos with billions of users, not the federated zombie of a protocol that we maintain...
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  463. fippo ge0rg: "dear facebook, please advise how to break your hold on the messenger space"? :-)
  464. Ge0rG It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far
  465. Ge0rG fippo: that's probably how it's going to end up
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  467. Ge0rG > It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far Guus, MattJ, ralphm?
  468. Guus Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email?
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  470. Guus Is this what Daniel responded to, via twitter?
  471. fippo guus: yes
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  473. ralphm As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language.
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  475. ralphm Or English.
  476. Zash That sounds like a thing the EU would mandate
  477. jonas’ ralphm, a german ministry?
  478. fippo still looking for more context on the original quote. like... a video
  479. mikaela > As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language. If your native language is an official EU language, I think yes
  480. ralphm mikaela: I'm Dutch
  481. Ge0rG https://fragdenstaat.de/anfrage/herstellung-von-interoperabilitat-zwischen-messenger-diensten-und-der-kontakt-zu-diesen/
  482. fippo ge0rg: brilliant :-)
  483. ralphm Ge0rG: Also, I'd ok for a native German speaker to list me as contact on behalf of the XMPP Standards Foundation as its Chair.
  484. Ge0rG Omr2019 seems to be a festival in Hamburg that happened yesterday and today.
  485. ralphm And finally, we have Alex.
  486. ralphm Who is our Secretary.
  487. Ge0rG ralphm: it might be much faster and less bureaucratic to talk in German to a German ministry. Just saying.
  488. ralphm If you'd just stop dubbing foreign media, we'd be in a much better place.
  489. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm sure that it's possible to talk to Ms. Barley regarding a EU regulation in that context, but her being a German electee, and with the upcoming election, I don't know how much she'd listen to foreign citizens.
  490. Zash The EU parliment election?
  491. Ge0rG https://omr.com/festival2019/en/speaker-artists/#katarina-barley
  492. Ge0rG Zash: yeah, that one
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  494. Zash Can't you vote for any candidate in the entire EU?
  495. ralphm No
  496. Zash Must have misunderstood something then.
  497. ralphm But yeah, not listening to people outside of your own country seems to be very common in the EU.
  498. jonas’ that’s progress over "(not) listening and waging war on them" at least
  499. ralphm Zash: people vote for national candidates to represent them in the EU parlement.
  500. ralphm jonas’: meh
  501. Ge0rG ralphm: Barley is also prominent for not listening to German population, to the contact that her party made with the other governing party, and to the members of her own party.
  502. Ge0rG *contact
  503. Ge0rG *contract
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  510. Ge0rG Anyway, I happen to have that little status symbol called Ph.D, which is a significant factor of respect for old school German politicians, I can be sufficiently eloquent in writing, I don't have a desire to push my private pet projects, and I volunteer to represent the XSF
  511. jonas’ ralphm, I find Ge0rGs suggestion all over all rather sensible. Communicating in german with a german ministry might be the way to go
  512. Ge0rG Guus [22:10]: > Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email? I'm not sure I can manage that in advance to tomorrow's board meeting
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  516. ralphm Well, I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting tomorrow, because I'm flying, but if you sent a message to board we can vote on list
  517. Ge0rG Isn't it sufficient to have it on trello?
  518. Ge0rG ralphm [22:33]: > if you sent a message to board That awakes sad memories about badly configured mailing lists.
  519. ralphm It would be nice to have a bit more context then a oneline summary with links to german things
  520. ralphm Ge0rG: that has been resolved, too
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  522. ralphm People now watch the moderation queue
  523. Ge0rG Of board@?
  524. Ge0rG I'll try to manage a mail tomorrow morning, thanks.
  525. ralphm Thanks!
  526. ralphm And, as I wrote on Twitter, I'm not sure if regulation to enforce interop will yield a desirable outcome.
  527. ralphm I mean sure, it would be great to have all of them connected, preferably using XMPP, but I'm not convinced it would resolve the silo issue much.
  528. Ge0rG Maybe not banning users for using an unofficial client would be a good start already.
  529. ralphm That has nothing to do with interop between services
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  532. Ge0rG Indirectly.
  533. ralphm In fact, if you'd use federation for getting there, it would mean they'd have to open up all the features of their app to be able to be used in a federated setup, which I think is not attainable by legislation.
  534. ralphm You couldn't make Snapchat, for example.
  535. ralphm The only reason it kinda works, is because they have control over the client.
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  538. ralphm Once you allow 3rd party clients, or federation, you can no longer ensure stuff is deleted.
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  541. ralphm There are many cases like this. E.g. deleting messages you sent to a contact in Whatsapp works by asking the receiver to delete.
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  545. Ge0rG ralphm: and don't even start thinking of E2EE
  546. ralphm So then the question becomes: what are you *actually* asking for.
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  548. ralphm I'm not interested in pyrrhic victories.
  549. Ge0rG ralphm: message deletion is probably the only relevant case, and that's easily circumvented by screenshotting
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  552. ralphm I'm not saying those features are waterproof.
  553. ralphm There's a difference between screenshotting and being able to create a legitimate client or federated service that doesn't adhere to deletion instructions.
  554. ralphm As soon as you allow federation, laying down restrictions or terms of use is almost impossible.
  555. ralphm 3rd party clients are slightly easier to litigate, maybe
  556. Zash It would be doable to restrict such features to approved local clients.
  557. Ge0rG ralphm: is your point that somebody must define a useful subset of functionality to implement everywhere, or is it that every provider will create arguments why their system must be exempted from federation?
  558. ralphm Zash: what does that mean for Snapchat?
  559. Zash ralphm: Self-destructing messages not leaving their own service.
  560. ralphm Zash: but the whole point of Snapchat is self-destructing messages.
  561. ralphm If the only way to use that service is by being local, it is not interoperable.
  562. Zash That's the trade-off, yes.
  563. ralphm And would then not comply with legal requirements to interoperate, if that's mandated.
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  566. ralphm So, you have to be really careful in figuring out what you ask for.
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  569. ralphm Ge0rG: I'm afraid that it might only interoperate on paper, and not in reality.
  570. Ge0rG ralphm: this is very much related to my second point
  571. ralphm Ge0rG: right. The problem is that problems like this will be presented as attempts to frustrate innovation, and that usually ends in paper tigers.
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