XSF Discussion - 2019-05-08

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  207. user222

    hello is this doxbin

  208. Zash

    No, this is the XMPP Standards Foundation

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  219. help pls

    can i talk with a owner/staff alone?

  220. vanitasvitae

    help pls: the owner of what?

  221. help pls

    so basically i got doxed and they posted it on a website. they told me tto contact xmpp to get it deleted

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  223. Zash

    This is not the place for that.

  224. help pls

    where do i go then

  225. jonas’

    help pls, did they give you an address?

  226. vanitasvitae

    Xmpp is a protocol

  227. Zash

    This is where we discuss the protocol itself.

  228. vanitasvitae

    They probably meant to contact them *via* xmpp

  229. help pls


  230. vanitasvitae

    Like in "via mail"

  231. help pls


  232. help pls

    they told me that but idk how can someone call me and help

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  235. help pls

    ok nice help

  236. vanitasvitae

    You havent really specified, how we can help you :D

  237. help pls

    I GOT DOXED AND I WANT THEM TO DELETE IT BUT THEY WONT. they told me to contact kt@neko.im

  238. help pls

    he said "XMPP is kt@neko.im."

  239. flow

    help pls, that is like saying "my cell number is 555-1234"

  240. help pls

    nice help

  241. jonas’

    help pls, i.e. contact kt@neko.im

  242. help pls


  243. jonas’

    how did you join this room?

  244. Zash

    I'm guessing the web chat

  245. help pls

    they told me to go on this site

  246. help pls

    thats all

  247. jonas’

    ah, web chat makes sense

  248. Zash

    Well you would need to get an actual account somewhere.

  249. jonas’

    help pls, XMPP is like E-Mail for chat. This is a room to discuss how to develop XMPP. That means, we are in no way affiliated with neko.im or your doxxer.

  250. jonas’

    To communicate with another user using XMPP, you need an account.

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  252. help pls

    HOW DO i make an acc

  253. help pls

    u all confusing why this even a thing

  254. jonas’

    help pls, for example here: https://magicbroccoli.de/register/

  255. help pls

    fuck doxbin

  256. Zash

    Kinda sounds like something to talk to the police about tho

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  258. jonas’

    that’s true

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  260. help pls

    imma get that site closed

  261. help pls

    how do i report websites

  262. help pls


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  265. jonas’

    help pls, your local police department

  266. jonas’

    will be able to help you

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  375. moparisthebest

    jonas’: after having conquered xmpp in sed, what about xmpp in css? https://github.com/kkuchta/css-only-chat

  376. jonas’


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  378. Ge0rG

    xmpp in css with a server-side awk module

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  380. jonas’

    it’s not like I hadn’t written a simple HTTP servlet in sed yet ;)

  381. moparisthebest

    Sed could be the backend

  382. moparisthebest

    Could be the future of web development

  383. Zash

    Nah, implement a Lua interpreter in sed, then run Prosody on it with a mod_c2s_css

  384. moparisthebest

    Css frontend, sed backend

  385. moparisthebest

    Somehow still better than JavaScript

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  425. fippo

    ge0rg: have you (with council hat and speaking german) heard anything about https://twitter.com/katarinabarley/status/1126122186840989696 ? cc tobias

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  429. mikaela

    Hi, this would probably be the place to ask where should I open an issue proposing something similar to Mastodon's rel=me verification for confirming that users on XMPP are who they claim to be? https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Mastodon (However that is probably more of an issue at Matrix, but I think XMPP already implements profiles with URL fields that it would depend on)

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  431. Zash

    Profiles can have URLs, yes.

  432. mikaela

    Is anything checking if those URLs link back to XMPP or would proposing doing that be possible somewhere?

  433. Zash

    I don't know if anything uses them for anything other than display in an user profile screen

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  453. Ge0rG

    fippo: I'm not aware of any official contact to us. I'm sure by "messenger services" she means the proprietary silos with billions of users, not the federated zombie of a protocol that we maintain...

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  463. fippo

    ge0rg: "dear facebook, please advise how to break your hold on the messenger space"? :-)

  464. Ge0rG

    It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far

  465. Ge0rG

    fippo: that's probably how it's going to end up

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  467. Ge0rG

    > It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far Guus, MattJ, ralphm?

  468. Guus

    Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email?

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  470. Guus

    Is this what Daniel responded to, via twitter?

  471. fippo

    guus: yes

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  473. ralphm

    As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language.

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  475. ralphm

    Or English.

  476. Zash

    That sounds like a thing the EU would mandate

  477. jonas’

    ralphm, a german ministry?

  478. fippo

    still looking for more context on the original quote. like... a video

  479. mikaela

    > As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language. If your native language is an official EU language, I think yes

  480. ralphm

    mikaela: I'm Dutch

  481. Ge0rG


  482. fippo

    ge0rg: brilliant :-)

  483. ralphm

    Ge0rG: Also, I'd ok for a native German speaker to list me as contact on behalf of the XMPP Standards Foundation as its Chair.

  484. Ge0rG

    Omr2019 seems to be a festival in Hamburg that happened yesterday and today.

  485. ralphm

    And finally, we have Alex.

  486. ralphm

    Who is our Secretary.

  487. Ge0rG

    ralphm: it might be much faster and less bureaucratic to talk in German to a German ministry. Just saying.

  488. ralphm

    If you'd just stop dubbing foreign media, we'd be in a much better place.

  489. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'm sure that it's possible to talk to Ms. Barley regarding a EU regulation in that context, but her being a German electee, and with the upcoming election, I don't know how much she'd listen to foreign citizens.

  490. Zash

    The EU parliment election?

  491. Ge0rG


  492. Ge0rG

    Zash: yeah, that one

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  494. Zash

    Can't you vote for any candidate in the entire EU?

  495. ralphm


  496. Zash

    Must have misunderstood something then.

  497. ralphm

    But yeah, not listening to people outside of your own country seems to be very common in the EU.

  498. jonas’

    that’s progress over "(not) listening and waging war on them" at least

  499. ralphm

    Zash: people vote for national candidates to represent them in the EU parlement.

  500. ralphm

    jonas’: meh

  501. Ge0rG

    ralphm: Barley is also prominent for not listening to German population, to the contact that her party made with the other governing party, and to the members of her own party.

  502. Ge0rG


  503. Ge0rG


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  510. Ge0rG

    Anyway, I happen to have that little status symbol called Ph.D, which is a significant factor of respect for old school German politicians, I can be sufficiently eloquent in writing, I don't have a desire to push my private pet projects, and I volunteer to represent the XSF

  511. jonas’

    ralphm, I find Ge0rGs suggestion all over all rather sensible. Communicating in german with a german ministry might be the way to go

  512. Ge0rG

    Guus [22:10]: > Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email? I'm not sure I can manage that in advance to tomorrow's board meeting

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  516. ralphm

    Well, I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting tomorrow, because I'm flying, but if you sent a message to board we can vote on list

  517. Ge0rG

    Isn't it sufficient to have it on trello?

  518. Ge0rG

    ralphm [22:33]: > if you sent a message to board That awakes sad memories about badly configured mailing lists.

  519. ralphm

    It would be nice to have a bit more context then a oneline summary with links to german things

  520. ralphm

    Ge0rG: that has been resolved, too

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  522. ralphm

    People now watch the moderation queue

  523. Ge0rG

    Of board@?

  524. Ge0rG

    I'll try to manage a mail tomorrow morning, thanks.

  525. ralphm


  526. ralphm

    And, as I wrote on Twitter, I'm not sure if regulation to enforce interop will yield a desirable outcome.

  527. ralphm

    I mean sure, it would be great to have all of them connected, preferably using XMPP, but I'm not convinced it would resolve the silo issue much.

  528. Ge0rG

    Maybe not banning users for using an unofficial client would be a good start already.

  529. ralphm

    That has nothing to do with interop between services

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  532. Ge0rG


  533. ralphm

    In fact, if you'd use federation for getting there, it would mean they'd have to open up all the features of their app to be able to be used in a federated setup, which I think is not attainable by legislation.

  534. ralphm

    You couldn't make Snapchat, for example.

  535. ralphm

    The only reason it kinda works, is because they have control over the client.

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  538. ralphm

    Once you allow 3rd party clients, or federation, you can no longer ensure stuff is deleted.

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  541. ralphm

    There are many cases like this. E.g. deleting messages you sent to a contact in Whatsapp works by asking the receiver to delete.

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  545. Ge0rG

    ralphm: and don't even start thinking of E2EE

  546. ralphm

    So then the question becomes: what are you *actually* asking for.

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  548. ralphm

    I'm not interested in pyrrhic victories.

  549. Ge0rG

    ralphm: message deletion is probably the only relevant case, and that's easily circumvented by screenshotting

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  552. ralphm

    I'm not saying those features are waterproof.

  553. ralphm

    There's a difference between screenshotting and being able to create a legitimate client or federated service that doesn't adhere to deletion instructions.

  554. ralphm

    As soon as you allow federation, laying down restrictions or terms of use is almost impossible.

  555. ralphm

    3rd party clients are slightly easier to litigate, maybe

  556. Zash

    It would be doable to restrict such features to approved local clients.

  557. Ge0rG

    ralphm: is your point that somebody must define a useful subset of functionality to implement everywhere, or is it that every provider will create arguments why their system must be exempted from federation?

  558. ralphm

    Zash: what does that mean for Snapchat?

  559. Zash

    ralphm: Self-destructing messages not leaving their own service.

  560. ralphm

    Zash: but the whole point of Snapchat is self-destructing messages.

  561. ralphm

    If the only way to use that service is by being local, it is not interoperable.

  562. Zash

    That's the trade-off, yes.

  563. ralphm

    And would then not comply with legal requirements to interoperate, if that's mandated.

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  566. ralphm

    So, you have to be really careful in figuring out what you ask for.

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  569. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I'm afraid that it might only interoperate on paper, and not in reality.

  570. Ge0rG

    ralphm: this is very much related to my second point

  571. ralphm

    Ge0rG: right. The problem is that problems like this will be presented as attempts to frustrate innovation, and that usually ends in paper tigers.

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