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user222
hello is this doxbin
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Zash
No, this is the XMPP Standards Foundation
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help pls
can i talk with a owner/staff alone?
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vanitasvitae
help pls: the owner of what?
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help pls
so basically i got doxed and they posted it on a website. they told me tto contact xmpp to get it deleted
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Zash
This is not the place for that.
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help pls
where do i go then
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jonas’
help pls, did they give you an address?
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vanitasvitae
Xmpp is a protocol
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Zash
This is where we discuss the protocol itself.
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vanitasvitae
They probably meant to contact them *via* xmpp
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help pls
HOW DO I INSTALL THAT I DONNT HAVE A BRAINN
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vanitasvitae
Like in "via mail"
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help pls
yh
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help pls
they told me that but idk how can someone call me and help
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help pls
ok nice help
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vanitasvitae
You havent really specified, how we can help you :D
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help pls
I GOT DOXED AND I WANT THEM TO DELETE IT BUT THEY WONT. they told me to contact kt@neko.im
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help pls
he said "XMPP is kt@neko.im."
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flow
help pls, that is like saying "my cell number is 555-1234"
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help pls
nice help
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jonas’
help pls, i.e. contact kt@neko.im
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help pls
HOW DO I CONTACT THEM
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jonas’
how did you join this room?
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Zash
I'm guessing the web chat
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help pls
they told me to go on this site
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help pls
thats all
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jonas’
ah, web chat makes sense
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Zash
Well you would need to get an actual account somewhere.
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jonas’
help pls, XMPP is like E-Mail for chat. This is a room to discuss how to develop XMPP. That means, we are in no way affiliated with neko.im or your doxxer.
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jonas’
To communicate with another user using XMPP, you need an account.
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help pls
HOW DO i make an acc
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help pls
u all confusing why this even a thing
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jonas’
help pls, for example here: https://magicbroccoli.de/register/
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help pls
fuck doxbin
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Zash
Kinda sounds like something to talk to the police about tho
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jonas’
that’s true
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help pls
imma get that site closed
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help pls
how do i report websites
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help pls
?
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jonas’
help pls, your local police department
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jonas’
will be able to help you
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moparisthebest
jonas’: after having conquered xmpp in sed, what about xmpp in css? https://github.com/kkuchta/css-only-chat
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jonas’
nah
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Ge0rG
xmpp in css with a server-side awk module
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jonas’
it’s not like I hadn’t written a simple HTTP servlet in sed yet ;)
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moparisthebest
Sed could be the backend
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moparisthebest
Could be the future of web development
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Zash
Nah, implement a Lua interpreter in sed, then run Prosody on it with a mod_c2s_css
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moparisthebest
Css frontend, sed backend
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moparisthebest
Somehow still better than JavaScript
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fippo
ge0rg: have you (with council hat and speaking german) heard anything about https://twitter.com/katarinabarley/status/1126122186840989696 ? cc tobias
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mikaela
Hi, this would probably be the place to ask where should I open an issue proposing something similar to Mastodon's rel=me verification for confirming that users on XMPP are who they claim to be? https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Mastodon (However that is probably more of an issue at Matrix, but I think XMPP already implements profiles with URL fields that it would depend on)
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Zash
Profiles can have URLs, yes.
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mikaela
Is anything checking if those URLs link back to XMPP or would proposing doing that be possible somewhere?
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Zash
I don't know if anything uses them for anything other than display in an user profile screen
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Ge0rG
fippo: I'm not aware of any official contact to us. I'm sure by "messenger services" she means the proprietary silos with billions of users, not the federated zombie of a protocol that we maintain...
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fippo
ge0rg: "dear facebook, please advise how to break your hold on the messenger space"? :-)
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Ge0rG
It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far
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Ge0rG
fippo: that's probably how it's going to end up
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Ge0rG
> It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far Guus, MattJ, ralphm?
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Guus
Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email?
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Guus
Is this what Daniel responded to, via twitter?
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fippo
guus: yes
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ralphm
As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language.
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ralphm
Or English.
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Zash
That sounds like a thing the EU would mandate
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jonas’
ralphm, a german ministry?
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fippo
still looking for more context on the original quote. like... a video
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mikaela
> As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language. If your native language is an official EU language, I think yes
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ralphm
mikaela: I'm Dutch
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Ge0rG
https://fragdenstaat.de/anfrage/herstellung-von-interoperabilitat-zwischen-messenger-diensten-und-der-kontakt-zu-diesen/
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fippo
ge0rg: brilliant :-)
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ralphm
Ge0rG: Also, I'd ok for a native German speaker to list me as contact on behalf of the XMPP Standards Foundation as its Chair.
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Ge0rG
Omr2019 seems to be a festival in Hamburg that happened yesterday and today.
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ralphm
And finally, we have Alex.
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ralphm
Who is our Secretary.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: it might be much faster and less bureaucratic to talk in German to a German ministry. Just saying.
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ralphm
If you'd just stop dubbing foreign media, we'd be in a much better place.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm sure that it's possible to talk to Ms. Barley regarding a EU regulation in that context, but her being a German electee, and with the upcoming election, I don't know how much she'd listen to foreign citizens.
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Zash
The EU parliment election?
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Ge0rG
https://omr.com/festival2019/en/speaker-artists/#katarina-barley
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Ge0rG
Zash: yeah, that one
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Zash
Can't you vote for any candidate in the entire EU?
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ralphm
No
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Zash
Must have misunderstood something then.
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ralphm
But yeah, not listening to people outside of your own country seems to be very common in the EU.
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jonas’
that’s progress over "(not) listening and waging war on them" at least
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ralphm
Zash: people vote for national candidates to represent them in the EU parlement.
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ralphm
jonas’: meh
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Ge0rG
ralphm: Barley is also prominent for not listening to German population, to the contact that her party made with the other governing party, and to the members of her own party.
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Ge0rG
*contact✎ -
Ge0rG
*contract ✏
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Ge0rG
Anyway, I happen to have that little status symbol called Ph.D, which is a significant factor of respect for old school German politicians, I can be sufficiently eloquent in writing, I don't have a desire to push my private pet projects, and I volunteer to represent the XSF
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jonas’
ralphm, I find Ge0rGs suggestion all over all rather sensible. Communicating in german with a german ministry might be the way to go
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Ge0rG
Guus [22:10]: > Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email? I'm not sure I can manage that in advance to tomorrow's board meeting
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ralphm
Well, I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting tomorrow, because I'm flying, but if you sent a message to board we can vote on list
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Ge0rG
Isn't it sufficient to have it on trello?
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Ge0rG
ralphm [22:33]: > if you sent a message to board That awakes sad memories about badly configured mailing lists.
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ralphm
It would be nice to have a bit more context then a oneline summary with links to german things
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ralphm
Ge0rG: that has been resolved, too
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ralphm
People now watch the moderation queue
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Ge0rG
Of board@?
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Ge0rG
I'll try to manage a mail tomorrow morning, thanks.
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ralphm
Thanks!
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ralphm
And, as I wrote on Twitter, I'm not sure if regulation to enforce interop will yield a desirable outcome.
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ralphm
I mean sure, it would be great to have all of them connected, preferably using XMPP, but I'm not convinced it would resolve the silo issue much.
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Ge0rG
Maybe not banning users for using an unofficial client would be a good start already.
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ralphm
That has nothing to do with interop between services
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Ge0rG
Indirectly.
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ralphm
In fact, if you'd use federation for getting there, it would mean they'd have to open up all the features of their app to be able to be used in a federated setup, which I think is not attainable by legislation.
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ralphm
You couldn't make Snapchat, for example.
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ralphm
The only reason it kinda works, is because they have control over the client.
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ralphm
Once you allow 3rd party clients, or federation, you can no longer ensure stuff is deleted.
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ralphm
There are many cases like this. E.g. deleting messages you sent to a contact in Whatsapp works by asking the receiver to delete.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: and don't even start thinking of E2EE
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ralphm
So then the question becomes: what are you *actually* asking for.
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ralphm
I'm not interested in pyrrhic victories.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: message deletion is probably the only relevant case, and that's easily circumvented by screenshotting
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ralphm
I'm not saying those features are waterproof.
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ralphm
There's a difference between screenshotting and being able to create a legitimate client or federated service that doesn't adhere to deletion instructions.
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ralphm
As soon as you allow federation, laying down restrictions or terms of use is almost impossible.
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ralphm
3rd party clients are slightly easier to litigate, maybe
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Zash
It would be doable to restrict such features to approved local clients.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: is your point that somebody must define a useful subset of functionality to implement everywhere, or is it that every provider will create arguments why their system must be exempted from federation?
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ralphm
Zash: what does that mean for Snapchat?
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Zash
ralphm: Self-destructing messages not leaving their own service.
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ralphm
Zash: but the whole point of Snapchat is self-destructing messages.
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ralphm
If the only way to use that service is by being local, it is not interoperable.
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Zash
That's the trade-off, yes.
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ralphm
And would then not comply with legal requirements to interoperate, if that's mandated.
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ralphm
So, you have to be really careful in figuring out what you ask for.
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ralphm
Ge0rG: I'm afraid that it might only interoperate on paper, and not in reality.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: this is very much related to my second point
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ralphm
Ge0rG: right. The problem is that problems like this will be presented as attempts to frustrate innovation, and that usually ends in paper tigers.