XSF Discussion - 2019-05-15

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06:47:55 COM8 emus and I are thinking about doing some kind of introductory presentation for people that never heard xmpp before. Are there any latex/pp/... Templates that already exist?
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07:14:44 Guus COM8 there's a list of (old) presentations on the wiki that might give you some ideas: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Presentations
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07:18:11 Ge0rG > When? January. Gotta love those. Also it's missing my subversive anti xmpp presentation.
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16:34:38 lovetox so if you submit something to the inbox, council votes on it and it gets experimental or rejected
16:34:47 lovetox how does on submit a protoxep that can be worked on?
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16:35:47 pep. Technically nothing prevents you from working on it and resubmit it? Council should provide feedback as to how improve it, if there is room for improvement, or blockers, or at least why they rejected it
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16:37:08 lovetox so are you saying there is no protoxep stage?
16:37:16 lovetox experimental = protoxep?
16:37:46 pep. no t really sure what protoxep means
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16:38:10 Ge0rG lovetox: what about pausing work for the three weeks that the XEP is in council?
16:39:17 lovetox Ge0rG, not sure what you are trying to say
16:39:30 lovetox im refering to the email dave sent to the list
16:39:47 Ge0rG Let me read that first, then
16:39:56 lovetox he talks about a protoxep stage, a stage where feedback is gathered and work on a xep is made
16:40:16 lovetox im not aware of any xeps in that stage, and wondered if he meant experimental?
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16:42:56 Ge0rG lovetox: there is an inbox for XEPs, and once something is submitted there, the Council will vote whether to accept it or not. Those in this stage are called protoXEP
16:43:38 Ge0rG After accepting, the protoXEP becomes a real XEP with a number, in Experimental state
16:45:04 lovetox yeah so if you submit a xep to inbox, this means council can outright reject it and there is not much work in this stage you can do
16:45:17 lovetox see for example ATT protoxep a few weeks ago
16:45:29 pep. It got feedback that can be dealt with
16:45:38 pep. And nothing prevents the author from pushing changes
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16:48:49 Ge0rG lovetox: it's a little bit awkward because the author shouldn't change a protoXEP currently under review, yes
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17:07:27 jonas’ there are a few criteria for acceptance to Experimental, and ATT failed one of them (a clear answer to the question "what is this about?")
17:08:02 jonas’ if your XEP is rough, but can answer that question (and has no other flaws which prevent moving to Experimental), it’ll be moved to Experimental and that’s where the main development should happen
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17:29:46 Kev It's usually pretty hard to get a protoXEP /not/ be accepted to Experimental. Mostly just "Is obvious what it's trying to do, isn't obviously broken, and isn't duplicating something we've already got without improving it".
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17:31:28 jonas’ Kev, ha, now I’ve got you: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/750 pls review
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17:33:53 Kev Will try to look tomorrow.
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18:02:12 pep. Kev: improving or taking a different shot at the same problem I'd say
18:02:14 dwd Well. It *should* be pretty hard to get rejected. Perhaps it isn't right now, and that would be a problem.
18:02:21 pep. We would know if the XSF had only one solution per problem
18:02:56 jonas’ pep., it’s not about duplicating solutions, but duplicating specific solutions
18:03:04 jonas’ XEP-0390 was accepted despite XEP-0115 existing
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18:03:59 dwd But also, if there's discussion around improving a ProtoXEP, that's usually a sign it should be adopted, given a number, and improved within the XSF.
18:04:21 pep. jonas’: I don't understand the difference you want to make
18:05:04 dwd In this particular case, there's an existing full stanza encryption XEP, of course. But I don't see that as a bar for any other.
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18:06:53 Kev I think discussion alone may be an indication, but isn't conclusive, in the case that something is horribly broken, which might sometimes happen.
18:07:07 Kev e.g. a security related XEP where the security model is obviously broken.
18:07:31 Kev I think in that case accepting it to Experimental isn't the right thing, because of the potential for harm if anyone did try to implement it.
18:07:40 Kev But other than that example, pretty much.
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18:25:08 flow I am all for an IETF I-D like process for ProtoXEPs: Just upload the ProtoXEP, get an stable versioned identifier and have something to point people at
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18:25:30 flow Since i really feel like the XSF is missing something like that
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18:34:38 dwd The Experimental stage is what is meant to correspond to the IETF 's draft stage.
18:35:31 Zash So what's the equivalent to 'bis' documents?
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18:36:13 dwd We just give things a number sooner. The difference is that we act as a working group, and the initial vote is like an apron to a working group draft.
18:36:14 flow dwd, not sure about that. The requirements are definetly very different
18:36:40 dwd Adoption. Not apron...
18:37:17 dwd Flow, they shouldn't be much different to WG adoption.
18:38:16 flow dwd possibly, but then it is not what like what I had in mind
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19:03:15 ralphm Flow: our process is just fine, IMO, as I tried to put in words in my email to standards@.
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21:09:31 Zash Aaaw yeeeaaah, XSL! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.xml
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21:12:59 pep. Can we not fake .html and serve text/xml instead? so we don't have to convert anything ourselves :-°
21:13:30 Zash Technically, yes.
21:14:04 Zash Could also be rendered on the fly by the web server
21:14:09 Zash So many options!
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23:45:37 moparisthebest Clearly it should be rendered client side with webgl and rust compiled to wasm
23:45:55 moparisthebest I even heard pep. was working on that
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23:54:49 pep. wat
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