XSF Discussion - 2019-05-16

  1. Ge0rG

    I want three layer parallax scrolling, and an interactive shooter game easter egg

  2. test

    wazzup guys

  3. jonas’

    Zash, it doesn’t work for inbox though

  4. Zash

    Did those go through a different pipeline?

  5. Zash

    Or, paths?

  6. jonas’

    probably paths

  7. eevvoor

    Is here somebody in academia? I am thinking about research in the XMPP area and are happy about collaborations.

  8. dwd

    eevvoor, There have been researchers working on/with XMPP before - I think there was a guy a couple of years back who put together a list of papers and things.

  9. eevvoor

    dwd, do you remember his name

  10. dwd

    Looks like the effort died (and it was longer ago than I thought) http://www.xmppresearch.org/

  11. Zash

    Didn't some researchers visit a recent summit?

  12. eevvoor

    thx very much dwd

  13. dwd

    Zash, That was those guys. And you, too, are old. :-)

  14. Guus

    iirc one of the people that is currently signing up as an XSF member mentions academic research in his application

  15. Guus

    And if I'm not mistaken, various of our German members are either employed or studying at universities.

  16. Guus

    pdurbin, weren't you too?

  17. eevvoor

    Flow is a researcher but does all XMPP stuff in his free time.

  18. eevvoor

    pdurbin is a programmer in science but no scientist ;)

  19. Guus

    maybe you can re-ignite http://www.xmppresearch.org/ 🙂

  20. eevvoor

    try to :) Guus

  21. eevvoor

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2019 Waar vind ik iirc Guus? Ik zie hem niet.

  22. pdurbin

    Batman's a scientist.

  23. Guus

    "iirc" is an acronym, not a nickname: "if I remember correctly"

  24. pdurbin

    eevvoor: what do you want to collaborate with someone on? What are your research interests?

  25. eevvoor

    pdurbin, i.e. CQL-requests to search-engines (ElasticSearch, solr, Lucene). But I am generally interested which scientific research is going on about XMPP. Formal investigations would also be fruitful.

  26. eevvoor

    pdurbin, i.e. currently, as I've told you already, CQL-requests to search-engines (ElasticSearch, solr, Lucene). But I am generally interested which scientific research is going on about XMPP. Formal investigations would also be fruitful.

  27. pdurbin

    Do you have a webpage of your research interests?

  28. eevvoor

    pdurbin, no

  29. eevvoor

    Guus dus wie is nu iirc? :D

  30. pdurbin

    How about an ORCID id?

  31. pdurbin

    I should put more information on my orcid landing page: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-9528-9470

  32. Ge0rG

    eevvoor: there seems to be some research about using xmpp in it security event reporting

  33. Ge0rG

    eevvoor: I'm also interested in the topic, maybe also in the context of IoT

  34. pdurbin

    There's a guy at work who will be presenting an idea next week about using ActivityPub as a replacement for OAI-PMH (a protocol we use to "harvest" content from one site to another) but XMPP could probably be used for this as well. Here is what he has written so far: https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/PP6iDKQqXMy8uH016MnH0hIE/

  35. goffi

    pdurbin: yes XMPP could be use for sure, also I've checked quickly the pad, it states that Diaspora is using ActivityPub which is false (it's using its own protocol).

  36. jonas’

    Guus, shouldn’t you be the one to ignite things? ;)

  37. edhelas

    goffi oh I though they moved to ActivityPub as well ?

  38. goffi

    edhelas: as far as I know they didn't, there are discussion on it but they still use their own protocol. But I'm not following this closely to be honest.

  39. Guus

    jonas’ I'm igniting things all over

  40. Guus

    (I might be missing context?)

  41. Guus

    ooohhhh - _late_ response to my re-ignite remark.

  42. jonas’

    Guus, very late :)

  43. nyco polishes the gavel

  44. Seve

    Guys looks like I will be able to follow the meeting a bit, but not participating 100%

  45. nyco

    so you can apologise about your apology?

  46. ralphm bangs gavel

  47. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  48. ralphm

    Who? What?

  49. nyco


  50. Guus


  51. nyco


  52. MattJ


  53. ralphm

    nyco: clever nyco, by now you should know this item is to ensure everything is on there.

  54. nyco

    are the "Awaiting feedback" and "Backburner" columns useful?

  55. ralphm

    I think so

  56. ralphm

    Was a meeting had last two weeks? I haven't seen minutes.

  57. pdurbin

    So who is right about Diaspora? Uses ActivityPub or not?

  58. nyco

    I missed the two last weeks (vacations), sorry

  59. ralphm

    pdurbin: can you wait until after the Board Meeting?

  60. Guus

    we skipped the oldest, we had a brief meeting last week.

  61. ralphm

    pdurbin: (shouldn't be more than 30 min)

  62. ralphm

    Guus: highlights?

  63. Guus

    I was talking to myself, mostly, iirc.

  64. Seve


  65. Guus


  66. Seve

    Thank you

  67. ralphm


  68. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  69. MattJ

    <fast-forward 5 minutes of silence>

  70. nyco

    I'll do dat

  71. ralphm


  72. ralphm

    Thanks MattJ

  73. ralphm

    2. What happens when a typo is fixed in a deferred XEP

  74. ralphm

    From the brief reading of last weeks meeting, there is going to be a new approach

  75. ralphm

    I think we can archive this?

  76. Guus

    Kev mentioned last week that jonas’ is working on improvements.

  77. ralphm

    (until that new thing arrives?)

  78. ralphm

    Or at least move it to Awaiting

  79. Seve


  80. ralphm

    3. Server setup

  81. Guus

    I'm fine with either approach

  82. ralphm

    MattJ: let's set a time to discuss this (oob)

  83. MattJ


  84. ralphm

    4. Tigase logo use

  85. Guus

    as a side note: do we have an uptodate inventory of what servers we have?

  86. MattJ


  87. ralphm

    I'm catching up on stuff since PyCon, and will send them an e-mail.

  88. Guus

    (maybe take that on as part of said disucssion?)

  89. ralphm

    Guus: good suggestion.

  90. MattJ

    Guus, it's one of my top priorities

  91. ralphm

    5. Reach out strategy

  92. ralphm

    I think we should pick this up. Last week at PyCon I found many people asking about (my) XMPP (hoodie), and we should do better at having these use cases known.

  93. Guus

    I think there's much benefit to be had here, but am unsure how to proceed.

  94. nyco

    marketing intern?

  95. Seve

    I feel we need some other way to work on that item, not sure if we have enough with weekly meetings. Maybe some blank papet somewhere and start writing thoughts there

  96. ralphm

    nyco: not sure. I think e.g. our communications team already has some better view on this

  97. nyco

    we're developers, have real mkt persons can definitely help

  98. ralphm

    But I'd first ask the community to come up with known uses of XMPP so we can put them up.

  99. nyco

    sure, great but then what?

  100. nyco

    shape it, deliver it, spread the word

  101. ralphm

    nyco: yes

  102. Guus

    ralphm, I don't think we need to ask for more potential parties to communicate with.

  103. nyco

    do we have that capacity internally?

  104. Guus

    We have a couple of good ones that we can start with

  105. Guus

    as nyco said, the 'what's next' thingy is more of a challenge than figuring out who to approach.

  106. ralphm

    I think expanding https://xmpp.org/uses/ with cases originating (and approved by) with such projects.

  107. ralphm

    E.g. we know that Fortnite uses XMPP, they've blogged about it. I'd like a testimonial from them.

  108. nyco

    what analytics do we have?

  109. nyco

    I mean, what's the traffic on that page? subpages? what CTA?

  110. Seve

    This is also something I would like us to try, get testimonials from "big players"

  111. Guus

    ralphm I suggest we pick and choose one party, and start figuring out how we could get from them what we'd like (such as testimonials).

  112. Guus

    maybe not start with the highest-value party, in case we mess up?

  113. nyco

    our members first

  114. Guus

    nyco I'm not aware of analytics being available for our webpage. Bear once compiled stuff from access logs, but that was a once-off, as far as I know.

  115. nyco

    I suggest Matomo to the iTeam

  116. Seve

    But we also discussed if we could offer something to them (what could we do for them to accept writing those testimonials)

  117. Guus

    nyco if feel that we're perhaps discussing different things?

  118. nyco

    that's the point, if we offer exposure, we have to deliver our numbers and optimise them (growth)

  119. Guus

    ah, like that.

  120. nyco

    Guus right on track

  121. Guus

    unsure if that's super critical, to be honest.

  122. ralphm

    I'm wondering if we should start out with having that all fully fleshed out.

  123. Guus

    I don't think Fortnite benefits from being on our website, no matter how poorly/brilliantly it's being visited.

  124. nyco

    what's the point trying to "communicate" and expose use cases if we don't measure?

  125. ralphm

    If we're starting with out membership, I think we should be able to get some testimonials without any strings attached.

  126. MattJ

    +1, I think that's a sensible start

  127. nyco

    members and sponsors should be able to provide their uses cases, that's a win-win for all

  128. Guus

    ralphm I don't understand what you're suggesting.

  129. ralphm

    nyco: I first want a place to point people and surprise them with XMPP not being dead

  130. Seve

    Very happy about this!

  131. ralphm

    I admire loftier goal, but not right now.

  132. MattJ

    Guus, I think a simple "Call for use-cases/testimonials" to members@

  133. Seve

    Going in the right direction!

  134. nyco

    agree, "XMPP is not dead" in another shape, can be a good starting point

  135. nyco

    members _and_ sponsors

  136. Guus

    MattJ ACK. tx

  137. Guus

    what sponsors?

  138. nyco


  139. ralphm

    Ok, who offers to write a call for testimonials?

  140. Guus

    I can do that, if no-one takes that on.

  141. nyco

    I can help

  142. ralphm

    I'd say the result for now should be a single paragraph, including the product name, and an estimate of the user base. Possibly with a link to a more elaborate (self-hosted) page.

  143. nyco

    then do a signifcant list

  144. ralphm

    I'm not sure about how to specify the user base. I telcos they use things like MAU, which is recognisable?

  145. nyco

    just gotta explain the meaning

  146. ralphm

    Monthly Active Users

  147. nyco


  148. ralphm

    I'm also kind of interested in concurrently connected, but that's probably to detailed.

  149. nyco

    aka number of users who got active at least once during last month

  150. ralphm

    Also, if it is not end users, but devices, the same goes. (MAD :-) )

  151. Guus

    people will simply name 'users' in whatever context is relevant to the project, I think.

  152. nyco

    (some say "organisations converted")

  153. ralphm

    Guus: "some indication of user activity, e.g. MUA or average concurrently connected users)

  154. nyco

    (when they are ashamed of the active userbase)

  155. nyco

    Mail User Agent ?

  156. ralphm

    MAU of course

  157. nyco

    MRR as well, maybe

  158. ralphm

    Other suggestions for Guus and nyco's Call?

  159. MattJ

    Just keep it simple :)

  160. ralphm

    yes, very much this.

  161. MattJ

    We can always ask for more info on individual responses if needed

  162. MattJ

    Just having the responses is a great start

  163. ralphm

    Let's draft it, send it to Board, and then send it out before next meeting.

  164. nyco


  165. Guus


  166. ralphm


  167. Seve


  168. Seve


  169. ralphm

    6. Compliance badges

  170. ralphm

    Where are we?

  171. Guus

    last time, i promised to poll members

  172. Guus

    which I didn't do yet

  173. nyco

    (we've passed 30 min meeting)

  174. ralphm

    ok, moving to next week

  175. Guus

    I just added a trello card on the commitments lane for that

  176. ralphm

    7. Messenger Regulation

  177. ralphm

    I think this item is about efforts to regulate companies to open up their respective messengers

  178. ralphm

    e.g. by mandating federaion

  179. Guus

    No, this is about trying to work with the german government.

  180. Guus

    and establish a direct line of communication about XMPP.

  181. ralphm

    Guus: I believe what I wrote is the bigger picture. The thing we discussed with Ge0rG last week?

  182. Guus

    one might follow from the other, but need not.

  183. Guus

    I'd suggest we first try to get our foot in the door

  184. ralphm

    What is action item at this point in time?

  185. Guus

    Starting a dialog in itself will be tricky enough.

  186. Guus

    "assign someone to make contact with the German government."

  187. Guus

    to quote Georg:

  188. Guus

    > who is representing the XSF, to contact the appropriate ministry and establish a permanent contact at the working-level, to ensure that Open Standards are established as the foundation for interoperation, and maybe even to make XMPP the best-suited standard.

  189. ralphm

    I'd be happy to take on this action, but would need guidance on who (exactly) to approach.

  190. Guus

    Ge0rG suggested this to be picked up by a German national

  191. ralphm

    (Given we lack a Executive Director, I think the Chair is probably the next in line)

  192. Guus

    > because German politicians don't listen much to foreigners

  193. ralphm

    Sure. As I mentioned before, we have one German citizen as Director: Alex. I could work with him and Ge0rG?

  194. Guus

    sounds good.

  195. nyco


  196. Guus

    I'm hoping that Ge0rG has ideas on how (and who) to approach this.

  197. ralphm


  198. Guus

    mentioning Ge0rG repeatingly in the hope that he pitches in now does not seem to have the desired effect so far though...

  199. MattJ

    He's currently away

  200. MattJ

    for another week

  201. Seve

    Ah, true.

  202. Guus

    I talked to him earlier, but sure 🙂

  203. ralphm


  204. ralphm

    Ok, I think that's it for today.

  205. ralphm

    8. AOB

  206. ralphm

    I haven't seen any.

  207. ralphm

    9. Date of Next

  208. ralphm


  209. ralphm

    10 Close

  210. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  211. Seve

    Wow, great! Thank you all!

  212. ralphm bangs gavel

  213. nyco


  214. ralphm

    pdurbin: the floor is open again :-)

  215. Guus

    thanks, byes!

  216. Guus does his disappearing act

  217. nyco in on the minutes, wanna get rid of this asap

  218. MattJ

    Thanks :)

  219. Seve

    nyco: thank you!

  220. nyco

    minutes sent, please correct me where I'm wrong

  221. ralphm

    I put out a PR for updating our current list of sponsors.

  222. ralphm


  223. pdurbin

    So who is right about Diaspora? Does it use ActivityPub or not?

  224. jonas’

    Guus, yes, I hope to work on the improvements soon-ish

  225. goffi

    pdurbin: https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7422 so it's only discussed and they still use their own protocol.

  226. pdurbin

    goffi: ok, thanks!

  227. jonas’

    Subject: [editor] XSF: Invitation to connect with M-Sec Project (XEP)

  228. jonas’

    did this somehow reach the board?

  229. jonas’


  230. Seve

    jonas’: Board has not been contacted, at least as a whole, thank you for letting us know. Could you please also forward it to board@xmpp.org?

  231. jonas’

    Seve, done, I’m not sure I’m allowed to send to that list (which is why I made a trello item in the first place)

  232. Seve

    jonas’: I'm also a moderator of the list, no problem, and thank you very much

  233. jonas’