XSF Discussion - 2019-06-04

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10:46:29 Link Mauve “14:29:44 Zash> jonas’, I wish for more XEP-0288”, how ready is mod_bidi to be included and enabled by default for Prosody 0.12?
10:48:00 Zash It works fine and has for years.
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10:49:13 Link Mauve By default is the keyword here.
10:49:59 Zash It just feels like a giant hack to me, I wish it was native
10:50:53 Link Mauve It may become native in a future version, but it would probably be nice to have it included earlier.
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11:11:19 Ge0rG Can we also get s2s 0198 in the same reign?
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11:14:08 Holger I think the interaction of bidi and 0198 can be ... interesting. Even more so with multi-domain and Dialback support.
11:14:18 Holger What's the selling point of bidi again?
11:14:31 jonas’ Holger, asymmetric s2s failures are extremely weird
11:14:36 jonas’ and with bidi you don’t have those
11:15:55 Link Mauve Also reduced resource usage due to there being only one socket and thus one TLS wrapper, instead of two.
11:16:18 Holger k. I'd clearly agree if we were designing s2s from scratch. Now I'm unsure whether you're not just exchanging weird failures with other weird failures.
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15:35:37 vanitasvitae A colleague of mine just ranted about Pidgin and noted, that there is not a single modern xmpp client for windows.
15:36:11 Ge0rG and is there?
15:36:16 vanitasvitae I ended up recommending conversejs to him and he seems quite pleased with it.
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15:37:36 oli how is conversejs a windows client? ;)
15:37:48 Zash Stick it in an Electron wrapper
15:37:58 Ge0rG the e-word! 🙈
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15:38:13 oli don't mention the el...
15:39:15 Zash That's how all True Modern clients work, isn't it?
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15:41:57 vanitasvitae He was amazed that he doesnt even have to install anything :D
15:41:58 oli I think Telegram is QT and C++
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15:51:45 oli But most true modern clients are Electron apps, like Whatsapp (130 MB for compressed installer).
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15:52:03 oli https://electronjs.org/apps?category=social-networking
15:52:20 Ge0rG converse.js is only 1.6MB compressed javascript
15:54:20 vanitasvitae He ended up setting converse up as a chrome app
15:54:29 oli how do I install it as a PWA?
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16:16:52 moparisthebest vanitasvitae: what about gajim and dino?
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16:25:28 President Gajim in Windows is good. Dino is only for Linux.
16:25:45 moparisthebest I don't think so...
16:25:54 moparisthebest I know people have ran Dino in windows
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16:26:29 President Can you point me to Dino Windows download page?
16:26:31 pep. President, it's "just" that there is no official build for it :)
16:27:08 moparisthebest for example https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/304
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16:38:07 President I am not able to find the Dino unofficial build .exe file for Windows 10 from the above website. website https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/306 says "There are no "clear instructions" on how to build Dino for Windows at this point, because Dino won't work sufficiently well under Windows right now." Maybe you can kindly build a .exe file Dino for Windows 10 for us to try?
16:39:51 moparisthebest I wouldn't advise anyone to use windows at all personally
16:42:15 President I have to agree with you Windows should not be used.
16:42:25 Zash Nor should iOS
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16:42:26 Zash or Android
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16:42:35 Zash In fact, don't use computers!
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16:43:16 João :-D
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16:44:10 President > Nor should iOS > or Android > In fact, don't use computers! Then, what should we use every day ?
16:44:32 moparisthebest linux, I recommend Arch :)
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16:45:20 Zash Use? Dunno, a plow maybe, and plant some potatoes.
16:49:02 President Arch linux takes too much work to install and causes me headache when upgrade. Farmer's life of planting potatoes may be amazing and far healthier than staying in front of the computer every day.
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16:51:18 pep. I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies).
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16:54:19 Seve vanitasvitae, there's also https://www.miranda-ng.org/en/ only for Windows
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16:58:37 President > I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies). Too bad. I hope nature will be more friendly to you next time.
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17:16:08 vanitasvitae Seve: yeah miranda is used in our offices too.
17:16:18 vanitasvitae Still, not a "modern" UI either.
17:16:38 moparisthebest define "modern UI" ?
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17:19:48 oli modern UI: everything jammed in a hamburger menu
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17:21:15 oli user interface design guidelines are irrelevant
17:21:43 oli everything has to be big
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19:04:09 Ge0rG Like a touch screen app, but more dumbed down
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19:05:15 moparisthebest I seriously want to know though
19:05:35 Zash Everything's an app these days
19:05:39 moparisthebest I like Conversations on my phone, but I certainly don't want the same UI on my desktop
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19:06:23 moparisthebest I figured people who wanted a "modern UI" on the desktop had something in mind
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19:07:02 Zash I'm sorta sad that the thing Empath and Gnome did with chat being something provided by the environment didn't take off
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19:07:09 Zash +y
19:07:57 jonas’ that thing from where the "don’t do multiprotocol" rant comes from?
19:08:09 Zash Correct
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19:11:17 Ge0rG I'd kill for _native_ applications, even on windows. Microsoft got multiple decades of experience designing widgets and making them accessible and keyboard navigation enabled
19:11:52 Ge0rG All third party toolkits emulate that, badly
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19:19:23 Ge0rG And developers prefer to impress their users for five minutes with nicely colored image buttons instead of enabling them to use the application effectively for years.
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19:33:25 moparisthebest I'm cautiously optimistic about webasm
19:33:48 moparisthebest rather than javascript being used all over the web and also to make 'native' apps which are just javascript websites in a native frame
19:34:03 moparisthebest you can write native apps that also happen to run in web browsers
19:34:03 Zash https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript comes true after all?
19:37:29 Zash moparisthebest: tho webasm doesn't do that and you'll never have true "write once, run everywhere" because platforms are different and you can't make a single gui work nicely everywhere
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19:39:09 moparisthebest they can share *most* code though, and that code doesn't need to be javascript, that's the big win in my book
19:40:10 Zash Didn't emscripten do that alreday or are you only thinking of some sort of binary thing?
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19:41:46 Zash Seomething something Java applets
19:42:02 moparisthebest well emscripten compiled to javascript, but I'm looking forward to a world without javascript :P
19:42:32 Link Mauve moparisthebest, it makes no functional difference though.
19:43:07 Link Mauve You could still write your code in any language which has a LLVM backend with Emscripten.
19:43:29 Link Mauve edhelas, you still haven’t fixed your CSN bug, fyi.
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19:55:37 moparisthebest maybe, it just leaves me hopeful that maybe one day web browsers won't support javascript anymore, only webasm :)
19:55:48 moparisthebest a man can dream
19:56:11 Link Mauve moparisthebest, so every website would ship a JavaScript interpreter compiled to wasm?
19:56:29 Link Mauve You’ve forgotten one of the main rules of the web: don’t break existing websites.
19:56:35 Zash or so everything would ship binaries and the original way a bunch of people got into programming would no longer exist?
19:56:37 moparisthebest no by then everyone's moved to Rust of course
19:57:11 Link Mauve moparisthebest, are you volunteering to rewrite every single existing website to Rust?
19:57:25 Zash altho learning html and js via "view source" hasn't worked for some time now
19:57:38 moparisthebest most of them rewrite themselves weekly anyway don't they?
19:58:32 Link Mauve Some haven’t been rewritten since the 90s.
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