XSF Discussion - 2019-06-04

  1. Link Mauve

    “14:29:44 Zash> jonas’, I wish for more XEP-0288”, how ready is mod_bidi to be included and enabled by default for Prosody 0.12?

  2. Zash

    It works fine and has for years.

  3. Link Mauve

    By default is the keyword here.

  4. Zash

    It just feels like a giant hack to me, I wish it was native

  5. Link Mauve

    It may become native in a future version, but it would probably be nice to have it included earlier.

  6. Ge0rG

    Can we also get s2s 0198 in the same reign?

  7. Holger

    I think the interaction of bidi and 0198 can be ... interesting. Even more so with multi-domain and Dialback support.

  8. Holger

    What's the selling point of bidi again?

  9. jonas’

    Holger, asymmetric s2s failures are extremely weird

  10. jonas’

    and with bidi you don’t have those

  11. Link Mauve

    Also reduced resource usage due to there being only one socket and thus one TLS wrapper, instead of two.

  12. Holger

    k. I'd clearly agree if we were designing s2s from scratch. Now I'm unsure whether you're not just exchanging weird failures with other weird failures.

  13. vanitasvitae

    A colleague of mine just ranted about Pidgin and noted, that there is not a single modern xmpp client for windows.

  14. Ge0rG

    and is there?

  15. vanitasvitae

    I ended up recommending conversejs to him and he seems quite pleased with it.

  16. oli

    how is conversejs a windows client? ;)

  17. Zash

    Stick it in an Electron wrapper

  18. Ge0rG

    the e-word! 🙈

  19. oli

    don't mention the el...

  20. Zash

    That's how all True Modern clients work, isn't it?

  21. vanitasvitae

    He was amazed that he doesnt even have to install anything :D

  22. oli

    I think Telegram is QT and C++

  23. oli

    But most true modern clients are Electron apps, like Whatsapp (130 MB for compressed installer).

  24. oli


  25. Ge0rG

    converse.js is only 1.6MB compressed javascript

  26. vanitasvitae

    He ended up setting converse up as a chrome app

  27. oli

    how do I install it as a PWA?

  28. moparisthebest

    vanitasvitae: what about gajim and dino?

  29. President

    Gajim in Windows is good. Dino is only for Linux.

  30. moparisthebest

    I don't think so...

  31. moparisthebest

    I know people have ran Dino in windows

  32. President

    Can you point me to Dino Windows download page?

  33. pep.

    President, it's "just" that there is no official build for it :)

  34. moparisthebest

    for example https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/304

  35. President

    I am not able to find the Dino unofficial build .exe file for Windows 10 from the above website. website https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/306 says "There are no "clear instructions" on how to build Dino for Windows at this point, because Dino won't work sufficiently well under Windows right now." Maybe you can kindly build a .exe file Dino for Windows 10 for us to try?

  36. moparisthebest

    I wouldn't advise anyone to use windows at all personally

  37. President

    I have to agree with you Windows should not be used.

  38. Zash

    Nor should iOS

  39. Zash

    or Android

  40. Zash

    In fact, don't use computers!

  41. João


  42. President

    > Nor should iOS > or Android > In fact, don't use computers! Then, what should we use every day ?

  43. moparisthebest

    linux, I recommend Arch :)

  44. Zash

    Use? Dunno, a plow maybe, and plant some potatoes.

  45. President

    Arch linux takes too much work to install and causes me headache when upgrade. Farmer's life of planting potatoes may be amazing and far healthier than staying in front of the computer every day.

  46. pep.

    I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies).

  47. Seve

    vanitasvitae, there's also https://www.miranda-ng.org/en/ only for Windows

  48. President

    > I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies). Too bad. I hope nature will be more friendly to you next time.

  49. vanitasvitae

    Seve: yeah miranda is used in our offices too.

  50. vanitasvitae

    Still, not a "modern" UI either.

  51. moparisthebest

    define "modern UI" ?

  52. oli

    modern UI: everything jammed in a hamburger menu

  53. oli

    user interface design guidelines are irrelevant

  54. oli

    everything has to be big

  55. Ge0rG

    Like a touch screen app, but more dumbed down

  56. moparisthebest

    I seriously want to know though

  57. Zash

    Everything's an app these days

  58. moparisthebest

    I like Conversations on my phone, but I certainly don't want the same UI on my desktop

  59. moparisthebest

    I figured people who wanted a "modern UI" on the desktop had something in mind

  60. Zash

    I'm sorta sad that the thing Empath and Gnome did with chat being something provided by the environment didn't take off

  61. Zash


  62. jonas’

    that thing from where the "don’t do multiprotocol" rant comes from?

  63. Zash


  64. Ge0rG

    I'd kill for _native_ applications, even on windows. Microsoft got multiple decades of experience designing widgets and making them accessible and keyboard navigation enabled

  65. Ge0rG

    All third party toolkits emulate that, badly

  66. Ge0rG

    And developers prefer to impress their users for five minutes with nicely colored image buttons instead of enabling them to use the application effectively for years.

  67. moparisthebest

    I'm cautiously optimistic about webasm

  68. moparisthebest

    rather than javascript being used all over the web and also to make 'native' apps which are just javascript websites in a native frame

  69. moparisthebest

    you can write native apps that also happen to run in web browsers

  70. Zash

    https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript comes true after all?

  71. Zash

    moparisthebest: tho webasm doesn't do that and you'll never have true "write once, run everywhere" because platforms are different and you can't make a single gui work nicely everywhere

  72. moparisthebest

    they can share *most* code though, and that code doesn't need to be javascript, that's the big win in my book

  73. Zash

    Didn't emscripten do that alreday or are you only thinking of some sort of binary thing?

  74. Zash

    Seomething something Java applets

  75. moparisthebest

    well emscripten compiled to javascript, but I'm looking forward to a world without javascript :P

  76. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, it makes no functional difference though.

  77. Link Mauve

    You could still write your code in any language which has a LLVM backend with Emscripten.

  78. Link Mauve

    edhelas, you still haven’t fixed your CSN bug, fyi.

  79. moparisthebest

    maybe, it just leaves me hopeful that maybe one day web browsers won't support javascript anymore, only webasm :)

  80. moparisthebest

    a man can dream

  81. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, so every website would ship a JavaScript interpreter compiled to wasm?

  82. Link Mauve

    You’ve forgotten one of the main rules of the web: don’t break existing websites.

  83. Zash

    or so everything would ship binaries and the original way a bunch of people got into programming would no longer exist?

  84. moparisthebest

    no by then everyone's moved to Rust of course

  85. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, are you volunteering to rewrite every single existing website to Rust?

  86. Zash

    altho learning html and js via "view source" hasn't worked for some time now

  87. moparisthebest

    most of them rewrite themselves weekly anyway don't they?

  88. Link Mauve

    Some haven’t been rewritten since the 90s.