XSF Discussion - 2019-06-04

“14:29:44 Zash> jonas’, I wish for more XEP-0288”, how ready is mod_bidi to be included and enabled by default for Prosody 0.12?

It works fine and has for years.

By default is the keyword here.

It just feels like a giant hack to me, I wish it was native

It may become native in a future version, but it would probably be nice to have it included earlier.

Can we also get s2s 0198 in the same reign?

I think the interaction of bidi and 0198 can be ... interesting. Even more so with multi-domain and Dialback support.

What's the selling point of bidi again?

Holger, asymmetric s2s failures are extremely weird

and with bidi you don’t have those

Also reduced resource usage due to there being only one socket and thus one TLS wrapper, instead of two.

k. I'd clearly agree if we were designing s2s from scratch. Now I'm unsure whether you're not just exchanging weird failures with other weird failures.

A colleague of mine just ranted about Pidgin and noted, that there is not a single modern xmpp client for windows.

and is there?

I ended up recommending conversejs to him and he seems quite pleased with it.

how is conversejs a windows client? ;)

Stick it in an Electron wrapper

the e-word! 🙈

don't mention the el...

That's how all True Modern clients work, isn't it?

He was amazed that he doesnt even have to install anything :D

I think Telegram is QT and C++

But most true modern clients are Electron apps, like Whatsapp (130 MB for compressed installer).

https://electronjs.org/apps?category=social-networking

converse.js is only 1.6MB compressed javascript

He ended up setting converse up as a chrome app

how do I install it as a PWA?

vanitasvitae: what about gajim and dino?

Gajim in Windows is good. Dino is only for Linux.

I don't think so...

I know people have ran Dino in windows

Can you point me to Dino Windows download page?

President, it's "just" that there is no official build for it :)

for example https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/304

I am not able to find the Dino unofficial build .exe file for Windows 10 from the above website. website https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/306 says "There are no "clear instructions" on how to build Dino for Windows at this point, because Dino won't work sufficiently well under Windows right now." Maybe you can kindly build a .exe file Dino for Windows 10 for us to try?

I wouldn't advise anyone to use windows at all personally

I have to agree with you Windows should not be used.

Nor should iOS

or Android

In fact, don't use computers!

:-D

> Nor should iOS > or Android > In fact, don't use computers! Then, what should we use every day ?

linux, I recommend Arch :)

Use? Dunno, a plow maybe, and plant some potatoes.

Arch linux takes too much work to install and causes me headache when upgrade. Farmer's life of planting potatoes may be amazing and far healthier than staying in front of the computer every day.

I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies).

vanitasvitae, there's also https://www.miranda-ng.org/en/ only for Windows

> I was outside the whole afternoon visiting places/things, couldn't stop sneezing. I think nature is trying to send me a message, "don't stay outside too much" (or maybe I just have allergies). Too bad. I hope nature will be more friendly to you next time.

Seve: yeah miranda is used in our offices too.

Still, not a "modern" UI either.

define "modern UI" ?

modern UI: everything jammed in a hamburger menu

user interface design guidelines are irrelevant

everything has to be big

Like a touch screen app, but more dumbed down

I seriously want to know though

Everything's an app these days

I like Conversations on my phone, but I certainly don't want the same UI on my desktop

I figured people who wanted a "modern UI" on the desktop had something in mind

I'm sorta sad that the thing Empath and Gnome did with chat being something provided by the environment didn't take off

+y

that thing from where the "don’t do multiprotocol" rant comes from?

Correct

I'd kill for _native_ applications, even on windows. Microsoft got multiple decades of experience designing widgets and making them accessible and keyboard navigation enabled

All third party toolkits emulate that, badly

And developers prefer to impress their users for five minutes with nicely colored image buttons instead of enabling them to use the application effectively for years.

I'm cautiously optimistic about webasm

rather than javascript being used all over the web and also to make 'native' apps which are just javascript websites in a native frame

you can write native apps that also happen to run in web browsers

https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript comes true after all?

moparisthebest: tho webasm doesn't do that and you'll never have true "write once, run everywhere" because platforms are different and you can't make a single gui work nicely everywhere

they can share *most* code though, and that code doesn't need to be javascript, that's the big win in my book

Didn't emscripten do that alreday or are you only thinking of some sort of binary thing?

Seomething something Java applets

well emscripten compiled to javascript, but I'm looking forward to a world without javascript :P

moparisthebest, it makes no functional difference though.

You could still write your code in any language which has a LLVM backend with Emscripten.

edhelas, you still haven’t fixed your CSN bug, fyi.

maybe, it just leaves me hopeful that maybe one day web browsers won't support javascript anymore, only webasm :)

a man can dream

moparisthebest, so every website would ship a JavaScript interpreter compiled to wasm?

You’ve forgotten one of the main rules of the web: don’t break existing websites.

or so everything would ship binaries and the original way a bunch of people got into programming would no longer exist?

no by then everyone's moved to Rust of course

moparisthebest, are you volunteering to rewrite every single existing website to Rust?

altho learning html and js via "view source" hasn't worked for some time now

most of them rewrite themselves weekly anyway don't they?

Some haven’t been rewritten since the 90s.