XSF Discussion - 2019-06-06

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  192. Kev

    Handling of unhandled stanzas to a local domain. 6120 says " either (a) handle the stanza as appropriate for the stanza kind or (b) return an error stanza to the sender.". 6121 helpfully says just to do what 6120 says. This is clearly vague, as returning an error for every stanza that isn't handled must be wrong (e.g. bouncing a bounce).

  193. Kev

    What do people generally do - drop everything except iq get/set, which error? Error everything that could be errorred (including headline etc.)?

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  198. Guus

    Kev Openfire delivers messages to the local domain JID to all configured admins.

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  201. Guus

    presence stanzas appear to be treated as if the 'to' attribute was empty.

  202. Guus

    (I'm looking at behavior, not code, so I might be missing things)

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  204. Ge0rG

    There is also this weird duality where on c2s connections a client is sending to the account by default, not to the server domain

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  206. Kev

    Guus: Ta.

  207. Kev

    Ge0rG: Weird duality?

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  209. Guus

    fwiw, the Openfire behavior likely predates 6120.

  210. Ge0rG

    Kev: well, technically your stream is to your account, so the default @to is your bare JID, it's just a bit weird for client devvs

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  237. Kev

    Fair enough - I never found that bit particularly odd, but I might be in the minority :)

  238. Zash

    I think that makes perfect sense. What's weird about it?

  239. Zash

    Other than the historical thing where tons of things are advertised on and hooked onto the server JID, while newer things often go on the account JID

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  254. Ge0rG

    Zash: maybe it's just because the perceived endpoint is the server, not my account

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  260. Kev

    My reading of this is that the minimally compliant thing to do is to error on iq get/set and swallow everything else, although I suspect errorring on a message (other than =error) might also be useful.

  261. MattJ

    I generally follow a policy of error for any unhandled/undelivered stanza

  262. MattJ

    Silent stanza loss is bad

  263. Zash

    And Prosody doesn't silently discard CSNs, they get saved to offline storage 🙂

  264. Kev

    I considered bouncing everything, but bouncing presence seemed more likely to be unhelpful than helpful. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

  265. Kev

    The really vital thing to bounce seems to be get/set.

  266. Kev

    Is there an argument for bouncing presence too?

  267. MattJ

    Yes: silent stanza loss is generally bad

  268. MattJ

    Trying to subscribe to a server's JID should return an error (if the server doesn't support that)

  269. MattJ

    For an example

  270. Kev

    That's probably fair.

  271. Kev

    Thanks all.

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  284. MattJ


  285. Seve says hi!

  286. MattJ

    Hi Seve!

  287. MattJ

    ralphm, Guus?

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  289. Guus

    as announced two weeks ago, I'm unavailable today.

  290. ralphm

    Sorry, got distracted

  291. ralphm bangs gavel

  292. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  293. ralphm

    Nyco and Guus sent regrets

  294. ralphm

    Are we good with the agenda?

  295. Ge0rG

    I'd like to provide a very brief update on the German gov't contact

  296. MattJ

    Sounds good, and I'm good with the agenda

  297. ralphm

    Great, that's already on it

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  299. Seve


  300. ralphm

    1. Discuss server setup

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  303. ralphm

    MattJ tried to follow up and then I failed to. We'll try again.

  304. ralphm

    2. Messenger Regulation in Germany / EU

  305. ralphm

    Ge0rG: the floor is yours

  306. Ge0rG

    I've talked to the person behind freie-messenger.de (another open protocols initiative), and obtained the contact of the respective person in the German ministry.

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  308. Ge0rG

    The contact person is Dr. Schäfer, whom I've contacted and provided a brief info of what the XSF is and who I am. He's currently obtaining an overview of relevant companies and projects/initiatives, and we will schedule a phone call after my holiday, in ~3 weeks

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  310. Ge0rG

    that's it

  311. ralphm

    Cool. Thanks for doing this!

  312. Seve

    Thank you very much Ge0rG, very appreciated, glad that you will be able to speak with him

  313. ralphm

    I'll put the item on the backburner, pending that call, and am confident you'll come back when you have talked to Dr. Schäfer.

  314. Ge0rG

    I'm going to schedule 15-30mins to introduce ourselves and to see where we might provide help

  315. Ge0rG

    regardless of that, we should develop an idea of what we actually do want.

  316. Ge0rG

    make XMPP the default baseline interop protocol?

  317. Ge0rG

    make XMPP the #1 suggestion communicated to companies?

  318. Ge0rG

    require all companies to use _the same_ interop protocol?

  319. Ge0rG

    require all companies to use the same _officially standardized_ interop protocol?

  320. Ge0rG

    I'm pretty sure we won't be able to put XMPP into actual law. And I'm pretty sure that won't be useful anyway.

  321. ralphm

    This is a good question indeed.

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  323. Ge0rG

    because who knows what the state-of-art will be in a decade or two

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  325. ralphm

    I agree that they won't mandate XMPP, but a well-known standard protocol suite would be good. Particularly if it isn't something like RCS.

  326. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'm eager to hear your rationale against RCS after the meeting

  327. ralphm

    Sure. For clarity, that's my personal view.

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  329. Ge0rG

    Maybe Board should ponder a bit about the anticipated goals for the phone call

  330. ralphm

    I'm also interested in what the community thinks about this. Anyone lurking here, or reading this after the fact, with an opinion, please let us know.

  331. ralphm


  332. winfried

    for the record: I making a (probably unsuccessful) push right now to make XMPP the mandatory standard for message exchange in Dutch healthcare right now

  333. Ge0rG

    winfried: I'd love to hear your lessons-learned from that, on-list, via personal mail or otherwise, until June 22nd

  334. ralphm

    winfried: good to know. Would be interesting if you could share which arguments you use to make that case.

  335. Ge0rG

    ...and which aruments weren't good in the first place

  336. Ge0rG

    ralphm: it would be great to escalate that to The Community. Feel free to re-use parts of my initial Board mail.

  337. mtavares

    winfried, that would be great

  338. ralphm

    We also have other people in our community that have dealt with governmental and/or military requirements, so that could help as well.

  339. winfried

    Right now I am in a conference... I will post an e-mail on it to the memberlist

  340. ralphm

    winfried: thanks!

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  343. ralphm

    3. Fabian Sauter on SCAM

  344. ralphm

    Seve added this one

  345. Seve

    Yes, he asked about joining in this very room

  346. ralphm

    He's doing the Berlin Sprints?

  347. Seve

    Although nothing else was mentioned, if there was a purpose behind, or if we need help, etc

  348. Seve

    ralphm, I met him at the Sprint there in Berlin, but I think he may be related to another one in another german city, not sure

  349. ralphm


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  351. Seve

    I expected him to be here today so we could talk about it, but he is not, unfortunately

  352. ralphm

    Seve can you ask him to expand on what he wants to do on SCAM?

  353. Seve

    Yes, I will try to reach to him

  354. ralphm

    I have no objections at this point, but a bit more than this would be good.

  355. Seve


  356. ralphm

    4. Tigase use of the XMPP logo

  357. ralphm

    I believe I asked Peter this a while back, looking up what he said

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  360. ralphm

    “stpeter‎: Hey, sorry, I was offline yesterday. I would think the logo is under the IPR policy, if it's licensed under anything.”

  361. ralphm

    nyco added this card, I don't know how that request came to us.

  362. ralphm

    Added info to the card

  363. ralphm

    5. Roadmap page

  364. ralphm


  365. Seve


  366. Seve

    It is basically this: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/564

  367. ralphm

    Well, first of all, I believe that page is out of date.

  368. MattJ

    I think the page needs removal or an update

  369. ralphm


  370. Seve

    We may want to discuss if we have a roadmap or not, before thinking on even linking it from the sidebar

  371. ralphm

    I'm curious if Council has an opinion on having a Roadmap like that.

  372. MattJ

    We've consistently failed at Board determining a roadmap the past few years, but if Council wanted to put some content there it would be good

  373. ralphm

    I wouldn't want to update it with without their involvement.

  374. ralphm


  375. ralphm

    I need to think about this some more. dwd: could you (and Council) think about this, too?

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  377. ralphm

    6. AOB

  378. ralphm

    I forgot this at the beginning: can one of you make minutes?

  379. ralphm

    Also, anything else?

  380. Seve

    Not from me

  381. MattJ

    Who is collecting the use-case reports?

  382. MattJ

    There was one I saw shared somewhere about Nintendo using XMPP for notifications

  383. Ge0rG

    regarding SCAM applicants: wouldn't it be great to have them write a short application page on the wiki?

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  386. Ge0rG

    doesn't need to be voted on by all members, just Board as-is

  387. ralphm

    MattJ: I saw a tweet thread on that. Would be very interested to get a case study from them.

  388. Seve

    It may be a good idea to start with a wiki page with the use-case reports, with some links and such, so we all can contribute

  389. ralphm

    The talk itself was not allowed to be recorded :-(

  390. ralphm

    Ge0rG: good idea. ← Seve

  391. ralphm

    Seve: agreed

  392. Ge0rG

    MattJ: https://twitter.com/jj1bdx/status/1134749626546843649

  393. Ge0rG

    there was also a japanese blog with photos

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  395. Seve

    Vaulor, do you have it?

  396. Seve

    Here it is https://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/796/1796780/

  397. ralphm

    Do we have a way to contact the speaker?

  398. Ge0rG

    we could contact jj1bdx and ask for speaker info

  399. Seve

    Looks like he is an ejabberd contributor https://twitter.com/mickael/status/1134762932708028416 so maybe someone from our community can reach for contact details

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  401. ralphm

    I'll try to reach out.

  402. ralphm

    7. Date of Next

  403. ralphm


  404. ralphm

    8. Close

  405. Seve


  406. MattJ


  407. ralphm


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  409. MattJ


  410. Ge0rG

    Holger is the most friendly ejabberd developer I know. Maybe he could reach out?

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  416. ralphm

    I've had contact with jj1bdx, and he's forwarding my request

  417. ralphm

    Seve: those slides are from a 2018 presentation, it seems

  418. ralphm

    related, but probably different from what jj1bdx tweeted

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  422. Ge0rG

    fun fact: jj1bdx is a user of my other app

  423. Ge0rG


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