XSF Discussion - 2019-06-06

Handling of unhandled stanzas to a local domain. 6120 says " either (a) handle the stanza as appropriate for the stanza kind or (b) return an error stanza to the sender.". 6121 helpfully says just to do what 6120 says. This is clearly vague, as returning an error for every stanza that isn't handled must be wrong (e.g. bouncing a bounce).

What do people generally do - drop everything except iq get/set, which error? Error everything that could be errorred (including headline etc.)?

Kev Openfire delivers messages to the local domain JID to all configured admins.

presence stanzas appear to be treated as if the 'to' attribute was empty.

(I'm looking at behavior, not code, so I might be missing things)

There is also this weird duality where on c2s connections a client is sending to the account by default, not to the server domain

Guus: Ta.

Ge0rG: Weird duality?

fwiw, the Openfire behavior likely predates 6120.

Kev: well, technically your stream is to your account, so the default @to is your bare JID, it's just a bit weird for client devvs

Fair enough - I never found that bit particularly odd, but I might be in the minority :)

I think that makes perfect sense. What's weird about it?

Other than the historical thing where tons of things are advertised on and hooked onto the server JID, while newer things often go on the account JID

Zash: maybe it's just because the perceived endpoint is the server, not my account

My reading of this is that the minimally compliant thing to do is to error on iq get/set and swallow everything else, although I suspect errorring on a message (other than =error) might also be useful.

I generally follow a policy of error for any unhandled/undelivered stanza

Silent stanza loss is bad

And Prosody doesn't silently discard CSNs, they get saved to offline storage 🙂

I considered bouncing everything, but bouncing presence seemed more likely to be unhelpful than helpful. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

The really vital thing to bounce seems to be get/set.

Is there an argument for bouncing presence too?

Yes: silent stanza loss is generally bad

Trying to subscribe to a server's JID should return an error (if the server doesn't support that)

For an example

That's probably fair.

Thanks all.

o/

Hi Seve!

ralphm, Guus?

as announced two weeks ago, I'm unavailable today.

Sorry, got distracted

0. Welcome + Agenda

Nyco and Guus sent regrets

Are we good with the agenda?

I'd like to provide a very brief update on the German gov't contact

Sounds good, and I'm good with the agenda

Great, that's already on it

Good

1. Discuss server setup

MattJ tried to follow up and then I failed to. We'll try again.

2. Messenger Regulation in Germany / EU

Ge0rG: the floor is yours

I've talked to the person behind freie-messenger.de (another open protocols initiative), and obtained the contact of the respective person in the German ministry.

The contact person is Dr. Schäfer, whom I've contacted and provided a brief info of what the XSF is and who I am. He's currently obtaining an overview of relevant companies and projects/initiatives, and we will schedule a phone call after my holiday, in ~3 weeks

that's it

Cool. Thanks for doing this!

Thank you very much Ge0rG, very appreciated, glad that you will be able to speak with him

I'll put the item on the backburner, pending that call, and am confident you'll come back when you have talked to Dr. Schäfer.

I'm going to schedule 15-30mins to introduce ourselves and to see where we might provide help

regardless of that, we should develop an idea of what we actually do want.

make XMPP the default baseline interop protocol?

make XMPP the #1 suggestion communicated to companies?

require all companies to use _the same_ interop protocol?

require all companies to use the same _officially standardized_ interop protocol?

I'm pretty sure we won't be able to put XMPP into actual law. And I'm pretty sure that won't be useful anyway.

This is a good question indeed.

because who knows what the state-of-art will be in a decade or two

I agree that they won't mandate XMPP, but a well-known standard protocol suite would be good. Particularly if it isn't something like RCS.

ralphm: I'm eager to hear your rationale against RCS after the meeting

Sure. For clarity, that's my personal view.

Maybe Board should ponder a bit about the anticipated goals for the phone call

I'm also interested in what the community thinks about this. Anyone lurking here, or reading this after the fact, with an opinion, please let us know.

Yes

for the record: I making a (probably unsuccessful) push right now to make XMPP the mandatory standard for message exchange in Dutch healthcare right now

winfried: I'd love to hear your lessons-learned from that, on-list, via personal mail or otherwise, until June 22nd

winfried: good to know. Would be interesting if you could share which arguments you use to make that case.

...and which aruments weren't good in the first place

ralphm: it would be great to escalate that to The Community. Feel free to re-use parts of my initial Board mail.

winfried, that would be great

We also have other people in our community that have dealt with governmental and/or military requirements, so that could help as well.

Right now I am in a conference... I will post an e-mail on it to the memberlist

winfried: thanks!

3. Fabian Sauter on SCAM

Seve added this one

Yes, he asked about joining in this very room

He's doing the Berlin Sprints?

Although nothing else was mentioned, if there was a purpose behind, or if we need help, etc

ralphm, I met him at the Sprint there in Berlin, but I think he may be related to another one in another german city, not sure

Oh

I expected him to be here today so we could talk about it, but he is not, unfortunately

Seve can you ask him to expand on what he wants to do on SCAM?

Yes, I will try to reach to him

I have no objections at this point, but a bit more than this would be good.

Indeed

4. Tigase use of the XMPP logo

I believe I asked Peter this a while back, looking up what he said

“stpeter‎: Hey, sorry, I was offline yesterday. I would think the logo is under the IPR policy, if it's licensed under anything.”

nyco added this card, I don't know how that request came to us.

Added info to the card

5. Roadmap page

Seve

Yes

It is basically this: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/564

Well, first of all, I believe that page is out of date.

I think the page needs removal or an update

Right

We may want to discuss if we have a roadmap or not, before thinking on even linking it from the sidebar

I'm curious if Council has an opinion on having a Roadmap like that.

We've consistently failed at Board determining a roadmap the past few years, but if Council wanted to put some content there it would be good

I wouldn't want to update it with without their involvement.

Right.

I need to think about this some more. dwd: could you (and Council) think about this, too?

6. AOB

I forgot this at the beginning: can one of you make minutes?

Also, anything else?

Not from me

Who is collecting the use-case reports?

There was one I saw shared somewhere about Nintendo using XMPP for notifications

regarding SCAM applicants: wouldn't it be great to have them write a short application page on the wiki?

doesn't need to be voted on by all members, just Board as-is

MattJ: I saw a tweet thread on that. Would be very interested to get a case study from them.

It may be a good idea to start with a wiki page with the use-case reports, with some links and such, so we all can contribute

The talk itself was not allowed to be recorded :-(

Ge0rG: good idea. ← Seve

Seve: agreed

MattJ: https://twitter.com/jj1bdx/status/1134749626546843649

there was also a japanese blog with photos

Vaulor, do you have it?

Here it is https://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/796/1796780/

Do we have a way to contact the speaker?

we could contact jj1bdx and ask for speaker info

Looks like he is an ejabberd contributor https://twitter.com/mickael/status/1134762932708028416 so maybe someone from our community can reach for contact details

I'll try to reach out.

7. Date of Next

+1W

8. Close

+1

wfm

KTXBYE

Thanks!

Holger is the most friendly ejabberd developer I know. Maybe he could reach out?

I've had contact with jj1bdx, and he's forwarding my request

Seve: those slides are from a 2018 presentation, it seems

related, but probably different from what jj1bdx tweeted

fun fact: jj1bdx is a user of my other app

https://aprs.fi/info/a/JJ1BDX-5