XSF Discussion - 2019-06-09

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  97. neshtaxmpp xmpp for ios
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  144. pdurbin Hi again. :) I've been running an IRC channel for my open source project at work for six years and a contributor has been pushing lately for something more modern. I asked to go ahead and open a GitHub issue with his requirements and he did, a couple days ago. XMPP is certainly more modern than IRC but I'm not sure if it meets all of his requirements: https://github.com/IQSS/chat.dataverse.org/issues/7
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  147. neshtaxmpp pdurbin: other day i say xmpp is much better than irc and they comment it is incorrent. i again i say xmpp is much better.
  148. Zash Nothing will ever satisfy everyones requirements
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  151. pdurbin neshtaxmpp, that's sad. Maybe that person hasn't used XMPP much. It's really good! I've been getting back into XMPP lately after a decade or so off. :)
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  153. pdurbin Zash, yes, it is ever thus. :) Can't make everyone happy.
  154. moparisthebest pdurbin: what on that list isn't satisfied by XMPP
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  156. pdurbin moparisthebest, well, I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm still getting up to speed with what I've heard called "modern XMPP". :)
  157. neshtaxmpp someone know for ios xmpp client.
  158. moparisthebest pdurbin: I don't see anything not satisfied by 2005 xmpp muc either...
  159. moparisthebest Flaky Connections maybe
  160. Zash > IRC is not very helpfull in highlighting the existance of other channels or the activity that happens there. Neither is XMPP. A concept of a group of channels that are related would be nice to have.
  161. moparisthebest Put it in the topic? I've never seen anything with that actually
  162. neshtaxmpp pdurbin: sad is that zash was in this channel that they ban me. peoples dont like true: https://conocer.xyz/upload/photos/2019/06/aO8HBaIRGWnZNK1nXj14_07_0facdc41ee7c106050b368cf88efb3da_image.png
  163. Zash eh
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  165. neshtaxmpp Zash: how is your friend pep from cluxia illuminati.
  166. pdurbin Zash, are you saying that it's not straighforward in XMPP to have several channels or rooms under a single "workspace" (Slack) or "community" (Gitter)?
  167. Zash Tho if you run a MUC per such group then that sorta works, but that needs DNS setup and stuff which adds overhead
  168. Zash pdurbin: muc.xmpp.org is kinda such a thing
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  170. neshtaxmpp pdurbin: if xmpp make general' like irc... and xmpp. irc + xmpp = then nobody will complaint.
  171. neshtaxmpp pdurbin: is new xmpp and for that classic peoples prefer irc...
  172. pdurbin Zash, is muc.xmpp.org only available via XMPP? I tried going to it under HTTP in the hope of seeing related rooms, kind of like how I can see a bunch of rooms under the jupyter "community" at https://gitter.im/jupyter/home
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  174. Zash pdurbin: Logs are at https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
  175. Zash pdurbin: The point being that all the rooms/channels hosted on it are related to the same topic
  176. Zash pdurbin: Problem being that you can't easily do that without running your own server
  177. neshtaxmpp pdurbin: all rooms need dns
  178. Zash Altho I do like it if more people run servers
  179. moparisthebest pdurbin: you want a web UI for it? You have options there, probably Converse or movim
  180. pdurbin Zash, it sounds like you're saying that https://logs.xmpp.org is the HTTP view of related channels, similar to the Gitter "community" example I gave.
  181. Zash pdurbin: It's a public view of the logs
  182. pdurbin Zash, yes. Ok.
  183. pdurbin moparisthebest, I don't worry much about flaky connections with Conversations on Android. I don't even notice when I lose signal. It's a great user experience.
  184. moparisthebest pdurbin: right current xmpp handles that well
  185. pdurbin moparisthebest, and yes, a web UI is essential. Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard of Converse but not movim.
  186. pdurbin neshtaxmpp, interesting. I didn't know that XMPP rooms each need a dedicated DNS entry. It's been a while since I helped run an XMPP server and I didn't set it up.
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  188. Zash Rooms don't need DNS; the MUC service does
  189. pdurbin Zash, thanks, that makes more sense. :)
  190. moparisthebest So does an IRC service
  191. moparisthebest And a http service
  192. pdurbin sure
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  196. oli pdurbin: are you looking for a free service or is self-hosting also an option?
  197. pdurbin oli, sometimes I can convince a community member to run services for the project so I'd say that self hosting is probably an option.
  198. Zash self-hosting gives you more options and more control
  199. pdurbin Incidentally, rather than clutter that issue the contributor opened with a comment by me with clarifying questions, I've taken the description in that issue he opened and left comments on various points in a google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18-4MrbSHYhcxvuFs1alAz0Opm_JTkRK2E0bafAxAHSI/edit?usp=sharing ... comments are welcome!
  200. pdurbin Zash, sure, makes sense.
  201. pdurbin We are having our 5th annual conference for our project in a week and a half and the question I'm anticipating is, "Can we shut down the #dataverse IRC channel and use Slack, instead?" I'd like to avoid this. And I'm wondering if XMPP would be a good choice. Public logs is one of my main requirements but as you can see people in the community have their own ideas of what they want. :)
  202. oli pdurbin: if you are looking for a slack like experience, I think mattermost is quite easy to install. Unfortunately it doesn't speak XMPP/MUC
  203. Zash pdurbin: In my experience, everyone has their own ideas of what they want. The hard part is figuring out what you really need.
  204. pdurbin oli, do you know if Mattermost can be installed in such a way that logs are public? I know this is possible with RocketChat because that's how Inkscape runs it: https://chat.inkscape.org
  205. oli pdurbin: I don't think that feature is included. It's most likely doable with a bot are you can use the API.
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  207. pdurbin oli, bummer. Thanks.
  208. oli I wonder how hard it is two write a MUC component for mattermost / rocketchat / slack / whatever
  209. Zash oli: That does what?
  210. oli offering all mattermost channels as MUC rooms
  211. Zash So a gateway/transport/bridge/thing?
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  213. oli could be also implemented as a bridge
  214. Zash (those were all words for the same thing)
  215. oli is it?
  216. Zash gateway and transport are words used by XMPP since the early days of Jabber, bridge is what Matrix calls it
  217. Zash oli: https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/ btw
  218. oli it doesn't bridge transparently
  219. oli bridge over bots
  220. Zash That's one way to do it
  221. Zash Doing it as a component that acts as a MUC service is another
  222. Zash biboumi does a pretty good job at that for IRC
  223. pdurbin For my project's use case, potentially switching from IRC only, it would be nice if a future service supported both IRC and XMPP, the way Slack used to. But this isn't a hard requirement for me. I guess I'm ok with non-standardized interfaces like whatever Gitter or RocketChat use.
  224. oli Zash: and I thought a gateway is something else in XMPP: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0100.html
  225. Zash > One distinguishing characteristic of Jabber technologies from their earliest days has been the existence of gateways (also called "transports") between the Jabber network and legacy instant messaging
  226. Zash oli: There have been IRC gateways since forever and they usually act like a MUC service
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  228. oli Zash: > All existing client proxy gateways require a Jabber User to register with the Gateway before sending messages or presence through the gateway. Although strictly speaking registration is not required (e.g., a Gateway could prompt the Jabber User for credentials every time the user attempted to communicate through the gateway, or once per "session"), in practice this step is required.
  229. Zash For connecting to services that require an account (ie ICQ and MSN) yes. IRC often doesn't, but can require it anyways.
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  234. pdurbin This "Document how to set up a Gitter-like user experience" issue I opened is where I'm tracking if it's feasible to switch my project from IRC to XMPP: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/21
  235. moparisthebest pdurbin: you can join IRC channels from an xmpp client with biboumi and that makes them act like xmpp mucs
  236. moparisthebest Or you can spin up an ircd backed by a muc service https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-ircd allowing IRC clients to join your real xmpp muc
  237. moparisthebest But at least mattermost is Foss unlike slack
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  239. pdurbin moparisthebest, cool, these are great. Thanks!
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  241. pdurbin RocketChat is also FOSS and seems like it supports public logs out of the box (again the Inkscape example above).
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  247. pdurbin Are there any open source projects that aren't already oriented around XMPP that use XMPP as their primary chat platform? Would Dataverse be the first if we switch from IRC to XMPP? Or do open source projects mostly just use Slack these days? Does this question make sense? :)
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  249. Zash Good question.
  250. pdurbin I'm glad it makes sense. :)
  251. pdurbin I can't be the only one who cares about chat standards. RFCs for IRC and XMPP.
  252. Zash IRC, especially Freenode, hosts quite a lot of FOSS projects still
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  254. pdurbin Sure. And six years ago when I started the #dataverse channel, freenode was a competely normal choice.
  255. pdurbin Freenode was growing in adoption back then: http://royal.pingdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/irc.002.jpg
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  281. pep. I'm not really sure I understand what <no-permanent-store/> is for, any example?
  282. Zash anti-MAM
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  284. pep. You wouldn't use no-store?
  285. Zash An offline message store might keep a message until it's delivered, while an archive (MAM) might keep it longer.
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