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ralphm
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MattJ: given the regrets sent, what if we use the Board timeslot for discussing infra in the other place? (cc Seve)
MattJ
13:05:41
Sounds good
Seve
13:08:05
Ok
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lovetox
14:04:18
hey found some errors in the MUC xep
edhelas
14:05:02
impossible
lovetox
14:05:06
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example10
muc#roominfo_changesubject is twice in the disco info
lovetox
14:05:26
and then i looked up muc#roominfo_changesubject and it is not in the registry for muc#roominfo
lovetox
14:05:59
there is though another value that muc#roominfo_subjectmod
jonas’
14:06:02
the registries are stale
lovetox
14:07:07
but we have now two values that do the same thing
lovetox
14:07:18
one in a example which are not normativ
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Zash
14:15:14
Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least 😉
lovetox
14:15:54
Zash can you lookup if prosody implements the correct one?
Zash
14:16:08
The correct what?
lovetox
14:16:46
muc#roominfo_subjectmod (in registry) vs muc#roominfo_changesubject (in examples)
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Zash
14:18:12
https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/0.11.2/plugins/muc/subject.lib.lua#l32
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lovetox
14:18:52
yeah that seems to be the false one
lovetox
14:19:55
Do you want me to create an issue?
Zash
14:20:05
The one mentioned in multiple places in the XEP?
MattJ
14:20:23
lovetox, funny thing is, we added this for you :) https://issues.prosody.im/1155
lovetox
14:20:50
haha yes, and i copied it from the example 😃
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lovetox
14:24:03
Zash actually its only mentioned in one place in the XEP, exactly in this wrong example
lovetox
14:24:36
i think the confusion comes from muc#roomconfig_changesubject (config not info)
lovetox
14:24:43
which is valid in room config forms
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flow
15:45:04
> Zash> Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least
I tried once to fix non compliant examples but council decided to go with broken examples
Zash
15:46:59
Or fix the registry. `muc#roominfo_changesubject` seems to have become the de-facto standard 🙂
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jonas’
15:50:34
flow, are you confusing "broken" with "noise-reduced examples"?
jonas’
15:50:39
or which instance are you talking about?
flow
15:51:16
jonas’, broken as in "if an entity would send such an stanza that it would violate the spec"
flow
15:51:46
if noise is really an issue here, which I doubt, then at least mark the examples as incomplete
jonas’
15:51:58
flow, IIRC somebody stood up to do exactly that
jonas’
15:52:00
it might’ve been me
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jonas’
15:52:09
(with <!-- ... --> markresr ✎
jonas’
15:52:12
(with <!-- ... --> markers) ✏
flow
15:53:09
dunno, xml comments are also invalid in xmpp, and what's the difference between adding a single line of "here is something missing" markers and a single line of what is actually missing
jonas’
15:55:21
flow, it’s more than a single line because a MUC service also has to implement disco#items
jonas’
15:55:24
so you need at least two lines
jonas’
15:55:54
XML comments being illegal in XMPP makes it very obvious that this is a meta-marker, which is great
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flow
16:01:12
Fair point, so two lines, I still don't see a noise problem. I guess what bothers me most is that many solutions for issues are rejected by council, because council has a, in their opinion, better solution, but that never materializes…
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jonas’
16:01:30
that’s a fair criticism
flow
16:01:35
Especially in this case the first solution could have just been merged and then changed later on
jonas’
16:01:48
that’s probably also fair
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flow
16:04:29
I always wonder what we can do about that. For things which are considered a defect by consensus, requiring the vetoing council members to provide a counter proposal within a reasonable timefrime could be one approach
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flow
16:05:41
But you can easily get gridlock'ed if those counter propsals are also vetoed
flow
16:05:49
OTOH that is the state we currently have
jonas’
16:06:01
"requiring" anyone to do anything in a volunteer organization is hard
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jonas’
16:06:25
although one could say that the veto is reverted if no counter proposal is made within that timeframe.
flow
16:06:42
jonas’, that is exaclty the incentive I had in mind
jonas’
16:06:50
and there’s also different kinds of defects
jonas’
16:06:55
or situatinos
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jonas’
16:07:37
flow, would you mind proposing that mode of operation in the next council meeting?
jonas’
16:07:42
I think that might be a good thing to have
jonas’
16:08:15
I have in mind to make it optional on the veto-ing side, i.e. the veto-er who wants to make a better version essentially says "-1 if I can make a counter proposal within 2w, otherwise +0" or something
jonas’
16:08:34
we’d have to figure out if that works with the bylaws and such
flow
16:10:26
jonas’, I'll put in on my TODO list
Kev
16:12:04
Currently the requirement for a veto is that the vetoing member explains what's required to remove the veto.
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Kev
16:12:25
Which seems like the best option available at the moment.
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Kev
16:13:08
But there's nothing stopping someone who vetos doing as jonas’ says and saying "Veto unless I don't get a patch out".
jonas’
16:13:39
don’t the bylaws give us a voting timefrmae?
Kev
16:14:11
Is the voting period relevant to this?
jonas’
16:14:15
maybe
jonas’
16:14:30
you may be effectively changing your vote after the voting period
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Kev
16:15:14
I don't think anyone cares, if done sensibly.
Kev
16:15:46
Because all it's doing is being functionally equivalent to everyone voting early on a future-scheduled item.
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lovetox
16:47:45
So whats the way to go for the MUC XEP problem?
lovetox
16:47:54
should we fix the example
lovetox
16:47:58
or the registry?
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lovetox
16:48:39
registry obviously nicer, but is it possible?
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flow
17:07:50
lovetox, could you give a brief summary of the MUC XEP problem?
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lovetox
17:08:56
its in the muc log starting at 16:05
lovetox
17:10:40
bascially every server impl took muc#roominfo_changesubject from a wrong example
lovetox
17:10:52
this value is not in the registry
lovetox
17:11:04
in the registry there is muc#roominfo_subjectmod
flow
17:11:33
and both carry the same semantics? And the XEP has no normative text about this?
lovetox
17:11:45
is the registry not normativ?
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flow
17:12:01
I'd say so
lovetox
17:12:25
muc#roominfo_changesubject is only present in one example
flow
17:12:37
So choose one and add a text to the XEP that it is recommended that services also support the other value?
flow
17:13:05
Probably including a sentence or two about the situation
lovetox
17:14:24
yeah we were at that point, just not sure which
lovetox
17:14:40
add the one everyone uses to the registry
lovetox
17:14:49
or remove the one everyone uses from the example
lovetox
17:15:15
question is can the registry just be extended easily?
flow
17:17:08
the one everyone uses is not the one in the registry I assume?
lovetox
17:17:16
yes
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lovetox
17:17:28
we could just extend the registry and be fine
flow
17:17:30
I don't see an issue why we shouldn't go with it then, and change the registry entry
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