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MattJ: given the regrets sent, what if we use the Board timeslot for discussing infra in the other place? (cc Seve)
13:05:41 MattJ
Sounds good
13:08:05 Seve
Ok
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14:04:18 lovetox
hey found some errors in the MUC xep
14:05:02 edhelas
impossible
14:05:06 lovetox
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example10
muc#roominfo_changesubject is twice in the disco info
14:05:26 lovetox
and then i looked up muc#roominfo_changesubject and it is not in the registry for muc#roominfo
14:05:59 lovetox
there is though another value that muc#roominfo_subjectmod
14:06:02 jonas’
the registries are stale
14:07:07 lovetox
but we have now two values that do the same thing
14:07:18 lovetox
one in a example which are not normativ
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14:15:14 Zash
Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least 😉
14:15:54 lovetox
Zash can you lookup if prosody implements the correct one?
14:16:08 Zash
The correct what?
14:16:46 lovetox
muc#roominfo_subjectmod (in registry) vs muc#roominfo_changesubject (in examples)
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https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/0.11.2/plugins/muc/subject.lib.lua#l32
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14:18:52 lovetox
yeah that seems to be the false one
14:19:55 lovetox
Do you want me to create an issue?
14:20:05 Zash
The one mentioned in multiple places in the XEP?
14:20:23 MattJ
lovetox, funny thing is, we added this for you :) https://issues.prosody.im/1155
14:20:50 lovetox
haha yes, and i copied it from the example 😃
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14:24:03 lovetox
Zash actually its only mentioned in one place in the XEP, exactly in this wrong example
14:24:36 lovetox
i think the confusion comes from muc#roomconfig_changesubject (config not info)
14:24:43 lovetox
which is valid in room config forms
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15:45:04 flow
> Zash> Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least
I tried once to fix non compliant examples but council decided to go with broken examples
15:46:59 Zash
Or fix the registry. `muc#roominfo_changesubject` seems to have become the de-facto standard 🙂
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15:50:34 jonas’
flow, are you confusing "broken" with "noise-reduced examples"?
15:50:39 jonas’
or which instance are you talking about?
15:51:16 flow
jonas’, broken as in "if an entity would send such an stanza that it would violate the spec"
15:51:46 flow
if noise is really an issue here, which I doubt, then at least mark the examples as incomplete
15:51:58 jonas’
flow, IIRC somebody stood up to do exactly that
15:52:00 jonas’
it might’ve been me
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15:52:09 jonas’
(with <!-- ... --> markresr ✎
15:52:12 jonas’
(with <!-- ... --> markers) ✏
15:53:09 flow
dunno, xml comments are also invalid in xmpp, and what's the difference between adding a single line of "here is something missing" markers and a single line of what is actually missing
15:55:21 jonas’
flow, it’s more than a single line because a MUC service also has to implement disco#items
15:55:24 jonas’
so you need at least two lines
15:55:54 jonas’
XML comments being illegal in XMPP makes it very obvious that this is a meta-marker, which is great
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16:01:12 flow
Fair point, so two lines, I still don't see a noise problem. I guess what bothers me most is that many solutions for issues are rejected by council, because council has a, in their opinion, better solution, but that never materializes…
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16:01:30 jonas’
that’s a fair criticism
16:01:35 flow
Especially in this case the first solution could have just been merged and then changed later on
16:01:48 jonas’
that’s probably also fair
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16:04:29 flow
I always wonder what we can do about that. For things which are considered a defect by consensus, requiring the vetoing council members to provide a counter proposal within a reasonable timefrime could be one approach
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16:05:41 flow
But you can easily get gridlock'ed if those counter propsals are also vetoed
16:05:49 flow
OTOH that is the state we currently have
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"requiring" anyone to do anything in a volunteer organization is hard
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16:06:25 jonas’
although one could say that the veto is reverted if no counter proposal is made within that timeframe.
16:06:42 flow
jonas’, that is exaclty the incentive I had in mind
16:06:50 jonas’
and there’s also different kinds of defects
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or situatinos
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16:07:37 jonas’
flow, would you mind proposing that mode of operation in the next council meeting?
16:07:42 jonas’
I think that might be a good thing to have
16:08:15 jonas’
I have in mind to make it optional on the veto-ing side, i.e. the veto-er who wants to make a better version essentially says "-1 if I can make a counter proposal within 2w, otherwise +0" or something
16:08:34 jonas’
we’d have to figure out if that works with the bylaws and such
16:10:26 flow
jonas’, I'll put in on my TODO list
16:12:04 Kev
Currently the requirement for a veto is that the vetoing member explains what's required to remove the veto.
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Which seems like the best option available at the moment.
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16:13:08 Kev
But there's nothing stopping someone who vetos doing as jonas’ says and saying "Veto unless I don't get a patch out".
16:13:39 jonas’
don’t the bylaws give us a voting timefrmae?
16:14:11 Kev
Is the voting period relevant to this?
16:14:15 jonas’
maybe
16:14:30 jonas’
you may be effectively changing your vote after the voting period
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16:15:14 Kev
I don't think anyone cares, if done sensibly.
16:15:46 Kev
Because all it's doing is being functionally equivalent to everyone voting early on a future-scheduled item.
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16:47:45 lovetox
So whats the way to go for the MUC XEP problem?
16:47:54 lovetox
should we fix the example
16:47:58 lovetox
or the registry?
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registry obviously nicer, but is it possible?
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17:07:50 flow
lovetox, could you give a brief summary of the MUC XEP problem?
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17:08:56 lovetox
its in the muc log starting at 16:05
17:10:40 lovetox
bascially every server impl took muc#roominfo_changesubject from a wrong example
17:10:52 lovetox
this value is not in the registry
17:11:04 lovetox
in the registry there is muc#roominfo_subjectmod
17:11:33 flow
and both carry the same semantics? And the XEP has no normative text about this?
17:11:45 lovetox
is the registry not normativ?
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17:12:01 flow
I'd say so
17:12:25 lovetox
muc#roominfo_changesubject is only present in one example
17:12:37 flow
So choose one and add a text to the XEP that it is recommended that services also support the other value?
17:13:05 flow
Probably including a sentence or two about the situation
17:14:24 lovetox
yeah we were at that point, just not sure which
17:14:40 lovetox
add the one everyone uses to the registry
17:14:49 lovetox
or remove the one everyone uses from the example
17:15:15 lovetox
question is can the registry just be extended easily?
17:17:08 flow
the one everyone uses is not the one in the registry I assume?
17:17:16 lovetox
yes
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we could just extend the registry and be fine
17:17:30 flow
I don't see an issue why we shouldn't go with it then, and change the registry entry
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