XSF Discussion - 2019-06-13

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  208. ralphm MattJ: given the regrets sent, what if we use the Board timeslot for discussing infra in the other place? (cc Seve)
  209. MattJ Sounds good
  210. Seve Ok
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  241. lovetox hey found some errors in the MUC xep
  242. edhelas impossible
  243. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example10 muc#roominfo_changesubject is twice in the disco info
  244. lovetox and then i looked up muc#roominfo_changesubject and it is not in the registry for muc#roominfo
  245. lovetox there is though another value that muc#roominfo_subjectmod
  246. jonas’ the registries are stale
  247. lovetox but we have now two values that do the same thing
  248. lovetox one in a example which are not normativ
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  252. Zash Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least 😉
  253. lovetox Zash can you lookup if prosody implements the correct one?
  254. Zash The correct what?
  255. lovetox muc#roominfo_subjectmod (in registry) vs muc#roominfo_changesubject (in examples)
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  257. Zash https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/0.11.2/plugins/muc/subject.lib.lua#l32
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  259. lovetox yeah that seems to be the false one
  260. lovetox Do you want me to create an issue?
  261. Zash The one mentioned in multiple places in the XEP?
  262. MattJ lovetox, funny thing is, we added this for you :) https://issues.prosody.im/1155
  263. lovetox haha yes, and i copied it from the example 😃
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  268. lovetox Zash actually its only mentioned in one place in the XEP, exactly in this wrong example
  269. lovetox i think the confusion comes from muc#roomconfig_changesubject (config not info)
  270. lovetox which is valid in room config forms
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  306. flow > Zash> Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least I tried once to fix non compliant examples but council decided to go with broken examples
  307. Zash Or fix the registry. `muc#roominfo_changesubject` seems to have become the de-facto standard 🙂
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  310. jonas’ flow, are you confusing "broken" with "noise-reduced examples"?
  311. jonas’ or which instance are you talking about?
  312. flow jonas’, broken as in "if an entity would send such an stanza that it would violate the spec"
  313. flow if noise is really an issue here, which I doubt, then at least mark the examples as incomplete
  314. jonas’ flow, IIRC somebody stood up to do exactly that
  315. jonas’ it might’ve been me
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  317. jonas’ (with <!-- ... --> markresr
  318. jonas’ (with <!-- ... --> markers)
  319. flow dunno, xml comments are also invalid in xmpp, and what's the difference between adding a single line of "here is something missing" markers and a single line of what is actually missing
  320. jonas’ flow, it’s more than a single line because a MUC service also has to implement disco#items
  321. jonas’ so you need at least two lines
  322. jonas’ XML comments being illegal in XMPP makes it very obvious that this is a meta-marker, which is great
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  325. flow Fair point, so two lines, I still don't see a noise problem. I guess what bothers me most is that many solutions for issues are rejected by council, because council has a, in their opinion, better solution, but that never materializes…
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  329. jonas’ that’s a fair criticism
  330. flow Especially in this case the first solution could have just been merged and then changed later on
  331. jonas’ that’s probably also fair
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  334. flow I always wonder what we can do about that. For things which are considered a defect by consensus, requiring the vetoing council members to provide a counter proposal within a reasonable timefrime could be one approach
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  337. flow But you can easily get gridlock'ed if those counter propsals are also vetoed
  338. flow OTOH that is the state we currently have
  339. jonas’ "requiring" anyone to do anything in a volunteer organization is hard
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  341. jonas’ although one could say that the veto is reverted if no counter proposal is made within that timeframe.
  342. flow jonas’, that is exaclty the incentive I had in mind
  343. jonas’ and there’s also different kinds of defects
  344. jonas’ or situatinos
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  346. jonas’ flow, would you mind proposing that mode of operation in the next council meeting?
  347. jonas’ I think that might be a good thing to have
  348. jonas’ I have in mind to make it optional on the veto-ing side, i.e. the veto-er who wants to make a better version essentially says "-1 if I can make a counter proposal within 2w, otherwise +0" or something
  349. jonas’ we’d have to figure out if that works with the bylaws and such
  350. flow jonas’, I'll put in on my TODO list
  351. Kev Currently the requirement for a veto is that the vetoing member explains what's required to remove the veto.
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  353. Kev Which seems like the best option available at the moment.
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  355. Kev But there's nothing stopping someone who vetos doing as jonas’ says and saying "Veto unless I don't get a patch out".
  356. jonas’ don’t the bylaws give us a voting timefrmae?
  357. Kev Is the voting period relevant to this?
  358. jonas’ maybe
  359. jonas’ you may be effectively changing your vote after the voting period
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  363. Kev I don't think anyone cares, if done sensibly.
  364. Kev Because all it's doing is being functionally equivalent to everyone voting early on a future-scheduled item.
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  377. lovetox So whats the way to go for the MUC XEP problem?
  378. lovetox should we fix the example
  379. lovetox or the registry?
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  381. lovetox registry obviously nicer, but is it possible?
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  387. flow lovetox, could you give a brief summary of the MUC XEP problem?
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  391. lovetox its in the muc log starting at 16:05
  392. lovetox bascially every server impl took muc#roominfo_changesubject from a wrong example
  393. lovetox this value is not in the registry
  394. lovetox in the registry there is muc#roominfo_subjectmod
  395. flow and both carry the same semantics? And the XEP has no normative text about this?
  396. lovetox is the registry not normativ?
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  398. flow I'd say so
  399. lovetox muc#roominfo_changesubject is only present in one example
  400. flow So choose one and add a text to the XEP that it is recommended that services also support the other value?
  401. flow Probably including a sentence or two about the situation
  402. lovetox yeah we were at that point, just not sure which
  403. lovetox add the one everyone uses to the registry
  404. lovetox or remove the one everyone uses from the example
  405. lovetox question is can the registry just be extended easily?
  406. flow the one everyone uses is not the one in the registry I assume?
  407. lovetox yes
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  409. lovetox we could just extend the registry and be fine
  410. flow I don't see an issue why we shouldn't go with it then, and change the registry entry
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