XSF Discussion - 2019-06-13

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  208. ralphm

    MattJ: given the regrets sent, what if we use the Board timeslot for discussing infra in the other place? (cc Seve)

  209. MattJ

    Sounds good

  210. Seve


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  241. lovetox

    hey found some errors in the MUC xep

  242. edhelas


  243. lovetox

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example10 muc#roominfo_changesubject is twice in the disco info

  244. lovetox

    and then i looked up muc#roominfo_changesubject and it is not in the registry for muc#roominfo

  245. lovetox

    there is though another value that muc#roominfo_subjectmod

  246. jonas’

    the registries are stale

  247. lovetox

    but we have now two values that do the same thing

  248. lovetox

    one in a example which are not normativ

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  252. Zash

    Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least 😉

  253. lovetox

    Zash can you lookup if prosody implements the correct one?

  254. Zash

    The correct what?

  255. lovetox

    muc#roominfo_subjectmod (in registry) vs muc#roominfo_changesubject (in examples)

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  257. Zash


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  259. lovetox

    yeah that seems to be the false one

  260. lovetox

    Do you want me to create an issue?

  261. Zash

    The one mentioned in multiple places in the XEP?

  262. MattJ

    lovetox, funny thing is, we added this for you :) https://issues.prosody.im/1155

  263. lovetox

    haha yes, and i copied it from the example 😃

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  268. lovetox

    Zash actually its only mentioned in one place in the XEP, exactly in this wrong example

  269. lovetox

    i think the confusion comes from muc#roomconfig_changesubject (config not info)

  270. lovetox

    which is valid in room config forms

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  306. flow

    > Zash> Mistakes in examples are easy to fix at least I tried once to fix non compliant examples but council decided to go with broken examples

  307. Zash

    Or fix the registry. `muc#roominfo_changesubject` seems to have become the de-facto standard 🙂

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  310. jonas’

    flow, are you confusing "broken" with "noise-reduced examples"?

  311. jonas’

    or which instance are you talking about?

  312. flow

    jonas’, broken as in "if an entity would send such an stanza that it would violate the spec"

  313. flow

    if noise is really an issue here, which I doubt, then at least mark the examples as incomplete

  314. jonas’

    flow, IIRC somebody stood up to do exactly that

  315. jonas’

    it might’ve been me

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  317. jonas’

    (with <!-- ... --> markresr

  318. jonas’

    (with <!-- ... --> markers)

  319. flow

    dunno, xml comments are also invalid in xmpp, and what's the difference between adding a single line of "here is something missing" markers and a single line of what is actually missing

  320. jonas’

    flow, it’s more than a single line because a MUC service also has to implement disco#items

  321. jonas’

    so you need at least two lines

  322. jonas’

    XML comments being illegal in XMPP makes it very obvious that this is a meta-marker, which is great

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  325. flow

    Fair point, so two lines, I still don't see a noise problem. I guess what bothers me most is that many solutions for issues are rejected by council, because council has a, in their opinion, better solution, but that never materializes…

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  329. jonas’

    that’s a fair criticism

  330. flow

    Especially in this case the first solution could have just been merged and then changed later on

  331. jonas’

    that’s probably also fair

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  334. flow

    I always wonder what we can do about that. For things which are considered a defect by consensus, requiring the vetoing council members to provide a counter proposal within a reasonable timefrime could be one approach

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  337. flow

    But you can easily get gridlock'ed if those counter propsals are also vetoed

  338. flow

    OTOH that is the state we currently have

  339. jonas’

    "requiring" anyone to do anything in a volunteer organization is hard

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  341. jonas’

    although one could say that the veto is reverted if no counter proposal is made within that timeframe.

  342. flow

    jonas’, that is exaclty the incentive I had in mind

  343. jonas’

    and there’s also different kinds of defects

  344. jonas’

    or situatinos

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  346. jonas’

    flow, would you mind proposing that mode of operation in the next council meeting?

  347. jonas’

    I think that might be a good thing to have

  348. jonas’

    I have in mind to make it optional on the veto-ing side, i.e. the veto-er who wants to make a better version essentially says "-1 if I can make a counter proposal within 2w, otherwise +0" or something

  349. jonas’

    we’d have to figure out if that works with the bylaws and such

  350. flow

    jonas’, I'll put in on my TODO list

  351. Kev

    Currently the requirement for a veto is that the vetoing member explains what's required to remove the veto.

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  353. Kev

    Which seems like the best option available at the moment.

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  355. Kev

    But there's nothing stopping someone who vetos doing as jonas’ says and saying "Veto unless I don't get a patch out".

  356. jonas’

    don’t the bylaws give us a voting timefrmae?

  357. Kev

    Is the voting period relevant to this?

  358. jonas’


  359. jonas’

    you may be effectively changing your vote after the voting period

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  363. Kev

    I don't think anyone cares, if done sensibly.

  364. Kev

    Because all it's doing is being functionally equivalent to everyone voting early on a future-scheduled item.

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  377. lovetox

    So whats the way to go for the MUC XEP problem?

  378. lovetox

    should we fix the example

  379. lovetox

    or the registry?

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  381. lovetox

    registry obviously nicer, but is it possible?

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  387. flow

    lovetox, could you give a brief summary of the MUC XEP problem?

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  391. lovetox

    its in the muc log starting at 16:05

  392. lovetox

    bascially every server impl took muc#roominfo_changesubject from a wrong example

  393. lovetox

    this value is not in the registry

  394. lovetox

    in the registry there is muc#roominfo_subjectmod

  395. flow

    and both carry the same semantics? And the XEP has no normative text about this?

  396. lovetox

    is the registry not normativ?

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  398. flow

    I'd say so

  399. lovetox

    muc#roominfo_changesubject is only present in one example

  400. flow

    So choose one and add a text to the XEP that it is recommended that services also support the other value?

  401. flow

    Probably including a sentence or two about the situation

  402. lovetox

    yeah we were at that point, just not sure which

  403. lovetox

    add the one everyone uses to the registry

  404. lovetox

    or remove the one everyone uses from the example

  405. lovetox

    question is can the registry just be extended easily?

  406. flow

    the one everyone uses is not the one in the registry I assume?

  407. lovetox


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  409. lovetox

    we could just extend the registry and be fine

  410. flow

    I don't see an issue why we shouldn't go with it then, and change the registry entry

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