XSF Discussion - 2019-06-26

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  94. cc cc
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  122. rion fippo: now I realize who you are. nice to meet you! :-D
  123. fippo not very active anymore but hey, small world :-)
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  139. flow fippo, you write that "Now transport-replace is difficult... XEP-0260 uses this in odd ways to fallback from s5b to ibb.", But when I look at the sequence diagram in xep260 § 3. I don't see any oddities, seems perfectly reasonable to use transport-replace(IBB) for the IBB fallback. I would expect that this can also be applied to fallback from ICE (xep371) to IBB, or am I wrong?
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  144. Ge0rG is xmpp.net melting down currently?
  145. Ge0rG jonas’: can you kick it gently?
  146. jonas’ I don’t have any power there
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  148. Zash Ge0rG: Melting?
  149. Ge0rG Zash: I'm running into a 504 Gateway Time-out
  150. Ge0rG ...when submitting 404.city s2s
  151. Ge0rG which my prosody also fails to connect to, apparently due to "connection closed"
  152. fippo flow: 0260 does a "try, determine failure, fallback" approach. ICE does the equivalent (even though not falling back to ibb) in parallel, potentially using a inferior transport (i.e. a relay) for some time. results in a better ux
  153. Zash works for me
  154. Ge0rG Zash: ah, it closes after/during TLS handshake
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  156. Ge0rG hm. works from my desktop PC
  157. Zash Is that ejabberds way of telling you it doesn't like your cert?
  158. Ge0rG works with openssl s_client. doesn't work from prosody
  159. Zash https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=404.city&type=server
  160. Ge0rG this is taking very long to load
  161. Ge0rG and also runs into the 504
  162. rion fippo: as @zinid said s5b has to be forgotten in favor of TURN/ICE
  163. Zash rion, why?
  164. fippo rion: well, ICE doesn't offer any ibb-fallback. Even though I would still be scared of any attempt to run a videochat over ibb :)
  165. rion Zash: it's mainstream now
  166. Zash And isn't it already forgotten in favor of HTTP upload?
  167. Daniel S5b meaning si file transfer or the jingle mechanism?
  168. rion Jingle allows to fallback from ice to ibb theoretically or to http or vice verca
  169. Daniel I don't see anything wrong with the jingle mechanism
  170. fippo zash: never declare a protocol obsolete, dead or forgotten. because what happens then is that people start using it
  171. rion Daniel: jingle is more or less fine but its s5b is not
  172. Zash fippo so dead == ready for enterprise deployment? 🙂
  173. Daniel rion: what's wrong with s5b?
  174. rion Daniel: read my remarks on wiki
  175. Daniel Link?
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  177. rion https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0260:_Jingle_SOCKS5_Bytestreams_Transport_Method
  178. rion fippo: > ICE doesn't offer any ibb-fallback Do you mean ICE xep? I see transport-replace as more general purpose approach then transport specific. Currently in Psi I added kind of transport features. like if it's slow and/or reliable etc. And an application declares which features are compatible or preferable with it (still work in progress though). So jingle core mechanism can build kind of transports priority list from just compatible transports and do replace properly.
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  181. rion IBB will never be selected for the RTP application :)
  182. fippo rion: more correctly, ice doesn't specify a candidate format for xmpp ibb. only udp and tcp transports
  183. rion fippo: in theory ibb allows to open substreams. so it can have one for RTP and one for RTCP. candidates are not needed.
  184. flow Daniel, TURN sould be used instead of (peseudo) socks5 proxies, no matter if legacy XMPP stream initiation, or jingle
  185. flow fippo, but from an XMPP jingle point-of-view, the jingle ICE transport chould be replaced with an IBB transport, no?
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  187. flow fippo, Maybe I understand your statement wrong, so there is nothing odd with how xep260 specifies the fallback from S5B to IBB?
  188. flow (context for those who wonder: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/793#issuecomment-505792574)
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  190. fippo flow: i don't think this kind of scenario has seen much practical use otherwise the questions rion asked would have been asked earlier
  191. flow fippo, is that really so? If we consider a world with S5B replaced with TURN, and legacy SI replaced with Jingle, why not keep the door open for IBB fallback as last resort?
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  193. flow I think the questions did not come up earlier because rion can be considered an early-adopter, at least of the FOSS community
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  195. fippo flow: it ends up being a question of maintenance cost. ibb fallback is cool but do you need to implement it to be compliant?
  196. ralphm I think IBB for any kind of media transfer, real-time or not, results in unwanted pressure on servers' routing and interference with 'regular' stanzas. This starts hurting quickly with increasing numbers of users.
  197. fippo also IBB wreaks havoc with rate limiting mechanisms (i.e. jabberds karma)
  198. ralphm So although it might work, I'd explicitly strongly recommend against it.
  199. flow fippo, Isn't a transport-replace(IBB) replacing a previous ICE tranpsort compliant?
  200. fippo flow: it is. but do we have a spec saying "try transports in this order"?
  201. flow fippo, do we need one?
  202. fippo flow: how do you know whether ice is better than raw-udp or ibb?
  203. ralphm From XEP-0176: * In Jingle, lists of "preferred" candidates are typically sent in the Jingle session-initiate and session-accept messages, in a way that is consistent with the SDP offer / answer model described in RFC 3264 [5] and the process described in ICE-CORE. * Candidates can also be sent in separate transport-info messages either before sending the session-accept message (to expedite negotiation) or after media begins to flow (to find modify existing candidates, find superior candidates, or adjust to changing network conditions).
  204. rion btw fallback from S5B to IBB works perfectly in Psi. but it would be nice to have some recommendation in XEP. like if your file is bigger than 100kb please avoid the fallback to IBB. Or maybe even checking props via server disco about current speed limits, stanzas burst mode etc.
  205. ralphm I also would like the ability for a server to (ahem) "discourage" this beyond a certain size.
  206. flow fippo, I may be mistaken, but ICE would potentially include TURN as far as I can tell. So it appears to be the natural higher priority transport mechanism with IBB as fallback
  207. flow ralphm, I am not sure if xep176 is really important here, given that it xep371 is expected to supersede xep176
  208. fippo flow: but ibb is not part of ice (which has its internal rules/priorities) but a different transport
  209. flow fippo, I know, that's why I talking abut transport-replace(IBB), replacing the XMPP Jingle ICE transport with the XMPP Jingle IBB transport
  210. ralphm Well, hah, so far nobody's cared enough for XEP-0371 to move forward, but yes. I also don't think it changes the idea behind the quoted text.
  211. fippo flow: and we certainly agree that ice is better than ibb. but i don't see a spec for that
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  213. ralphm And indeed I'd put IBB at priority 0, but the problem I see is that a server doesn't have an easy way to not want to support it.
  214. fippo ralphm: it can provide a terrible experience to any user that uses it? :-)
  215. Zash How complicated is ICE to implement for an XMPP server?
  216. jonas’ STUN would be a good start
  217. ralphm fippo: as well as all other users
  218. Zash TURN STUN ICE so many acronyms!!!
  219. rion Zash: do you mean integrate with any existing turn server?
  220. fippo ralphm: I assume servers do provide rate limiting :-)
  221. ralphm Zash: you can use an existing TURN/STUN server. Like coturn.
  222. rion it's matter of providing proper authentication to turn. that's it
  223. Zash And now you doubled the complexity of the installation procedure.
  224. ralphm And then look at implementing Jingle Nodes
  225. fippo zash: in general you don't want that. IM servers have completly different deployment patterns (200ms latency due to centralization for the whole world) is ok but for turn servers you want them in many datacenters around the world
  226. rion fippo can tell a lot about turn auth :)
  227. Zash Auth stuff already exists afaik
  228. ralphm So indeed, don't reimplement a TURN server, but provide an easy way to use them (Jingle Nodes).
  229. rion Zash: yes. xmpp servers should tell turn server about auth keys.
  230. fippo zash: prosody even has a module for xep-0215 :-)
  231. ralphm I'm literally writing a blog post on how we did this at VEON.
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  233. rion ralphm: waiting for a link :)
  234. ralphm rion: noted
  235. Zash fippo: Me, with my single user self-hosting in my basement, now need to deploy things to multiple data centers?
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  237. ralphm What, no.
  238. fippo zash: send 1$ to twilio each month instead
  239. ralphm At VEON we had one in Russia and one for the rest of the world. As you scale up, you geographically (network wise) add more.
  240. ralphm Just run coturn next to prosody, and you'll be fine.
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  242. Zash Is that going to work if it runs behind a NAT?
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  244. fippo if you know your external ip that can be configured
  245. ralphm Also note that you don't provide TURN for others, it is for your (users) benefit. Your contacts should use their own.
  246. ralphm Zash: you need to be able to reach it, of course (single port), and for relaying you do need to open up additional ports so that your peer can connect to it.
  247. ralphm (typically a range of UDP ports)
  248. ralphm So, say you run this at home, you'd have your NAT pass on the traffic for that port range (udp, and 3478, udp and tcp).
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  254. rion Is there any XEP like Last Message Correction but to delete a message including mam?
  255. Zash There's a proto-xep in the inbox I think
  256. Zash Inbox isn't rendered?
  257. Zash rion https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/inbox/message-retraction.xml
  258. rion thx.
  259. rion huh added almost 2 years ago. what's wrong with it?
  260. moparisthebest well Barbra Streisand tried it in 2003 and it didn't work out very well
  261. Zash Check standards archives and council logs from around that time?
  262. Zash Hm, was those logs lost in the crash?
  263. rion I see there is no notifications to other resources or muc participants about the retraction. So it's kind of incomplete
  264. Zash It should work the same as LMC?
  265. rion ah other resources will be notified with carbons.
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  267. rion honestly I don't like the LMC idea. I'd prefer for changes to a message to be in place instead of a patch as it's for LMC.
  268. dwd moparisthebest, :-)
  269. pep. rion, what do you want to do exactly?
  270. Zash rion: It's not a patch, or do you mean that the old message is still in MAM for everyone? You know you can't really delete anything in an open system?
  271. Zash And that's probably why the retraction xep was not accepted.
  272. Zash You can't un-say something. Can't reverse time.
  273. pep. Does reversing time also reverse your actions?
  274. rion Just imagine I'm writing to my mistress something quite private and after sending a message I discover it's was a chat dialog with my wife! Fine, I can delete/correct the message. But fu** she can see the previous message from MAM. what??
  275. Zash Can't prevent clients from keeping the "deleted" message and sticking a blinking red border around it
  276. pep. rion, maybe she wouldn't be able to. Her client would
  277. Zash Same as if you say something to their face
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  279. Zash Can't un-say something.
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  281. Zash Stop trying to break the laws of physics and causality
  282. rion would be better if I could :)
  283. Zash You can't
  284. Zash Deal with it
  285. rion nooo!
  286. Zash Not in an open system.
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  288. pep. Even then.. people take pictures of pictures nowadays..
  289. rion Zash: and yes I have to be honest with my wife..
  290. pep. good
  291. pep. Or you can claim plausible deniability
  292. Zash Claim temporary insanity
  293. dwd So it looks, to me, that message-deletion was almost accepted, but had its name changed as a result of council feedback - but I can't see it actually getting rejected.
  294. pep. Somebody not following up?
  295. dwd It was four years ago, though. But I think the general feel back then was that as long as we called it "retraction" and not "deletion", it'd be OK.
  296. dwd pep., Very hard to tell. I suspect it fell through the inter-council gap.
  297. pep. There was also a thread about something similar a few months ago iirc
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  299. dwd pep., If by a few months ago, you mean 2016...
  300. pep. I'm not sure, I think it was by one of the russian fellows
  301. pep. Trying to copy signal or telegram or something like that
  302. pep. There was no XEP proposed, just a discussion
  303. dwd Oh, yeah, Andrew Nenakhov mentioned it I think.
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  312. ralphm Even in Whatsapp, deleting a message at the remote party is a request, and if the remote app doesn't process it within (I think) 7 days, the request expires and the message stays.
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  335. Zash How do you test TURN/STUN/STUFF/ICE?
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  337. Lance Testing that connections work, or that candidates are generating?
  338. Lance There's https://webrtc.github.io/samples/src/content/peerconnection/trickle-ice/ if you want to test candidate gathering is handing out the right things
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  343. Zash Okay. It does something.
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  345. ralphm Yay?
  346. Zash What's the state of XEP-0215 (client) implementations?
  347. Zash I see there was a version bump to :2 at some point
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  352. fippo lance removed it from talky I think (boo lance!) and it seems jitsi uses :1
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  357. ralphm Zash: were you trying to use it for discovering your TURN server?
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  359. Zash ralphm: I'm wondering why I did this, what I can use it with.
  360. ralphm Well, you might want to look at XEP-0278 (Jingle Nodes), which besides discovery also handles authentication and requesting a channel.
  361. ralphm This is what we used in VEON, likely also because the author (Thiago) was one of the team members :-D
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  369. Lance Talky will be getting 215 back soon. Have to finish writing patch for extdisco prosody mod first to generate service entries/credentials via an event instead of pulling from static config file
  370. Zash I went with https://modules.prosody.im/mod_turncredentials.html but it implements :1
  371. Zash Seems to magically Just Work tho
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  377. Yagiza Daniel, is registration ID a local device ID?
  378. lovetox its a device ID
  379. lovetox im not sure what you mean by local
  380. lovetox you generate it for the user on first use
  381. fippo zash: sadly i don't remember why we bumped the namespace even
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  383. Lance :2 added support for server pushing updated services/credentials to clients that had requested them
  384. lovetox where do you get the word registration ID from?
  385. lovetox lib signal?
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  389. Yagiza lovetox, I mean that we have a local device ID, which we generated ourself and remote device IDs, generated by other devices, which we discover via PEP.
  390. lovetox yeah and libsignal has also something similar they call it registrationID
  391. lovetox in my lib i just set it to None and ignore it
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  393. Yagiza lovetox, that's what my question was. If "registration ID" is local "device ID" in terms of libsignal-protocol.
  394. lovetox but maybe you can use that, if i look through the code its actually just a value stored in libsignals objects
  395. lovetox i dont see it doing somewhere something specific
  396. Yagiza lovetox, I need to specify it when calling session_pre_key_bundle_create() to create a pre key bundle.
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  398. lovetox yes pass the device id there
  399. Yagiza lovetox, ok, thanx.
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  447. Yagiza Well
  448. Yagiza What should be wrapped in <key/> elements? Serialized ciphertext_message?
  449. lovetox yes
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  452. Yagiza And then I must deserialize it with signal_message_deserialize?
  453. lovetox maybe, in my python port of the lib this call loos like this PreKeyWhisperMessage(serialized=message)
  454. lovetox but yes you obviously have to deserialize it somehow
  455. Yagiza So, session_cipher is the only thing, which describes a session.
  456. Yagiza And I must use the only session_cipher for both encoding outgoing and decoding incoming messages?
  457. lovetox yes
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  459. lovetox and as you before asked key element wraps the ciphertext serialized
  460. lovetox but of course you should not forget about base64 encoding it first
  461. lovetox signallib does not do this for you
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  481. ralphm Lance: oh, right. But clients should already know when to update, cause of expiry. Is this for premature expiry, like a turn server restart?
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  485. Lance :2 added expiration attribute too. It was for server restarts and forcing move to new instance, yes
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  488. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/ylN-_jalmw_Dvpuh/xep-0215-diff.html
  489. Zash Gah, things detecting that stdout isn't a terminal and disabling color :(
  490. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/YxG91XYKo9S47ZSd/xep-0215-diff.html Now then?
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  514. lovetox has left
  515. Lance has joined
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  520. Lance has left
  521. rtq3 has left