XSF Discussion - 2019-06-30

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  45. jonas’ pep., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09LU6XVyxs&t=4s ?
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  57. jonas’ I made a thing: https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter
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  98. ralphm Cool. Do you have an example output?
  99. ralphm jonas’
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  104. jonas’ ralphm, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/588851b3/
  105. ralphm Cool. You could add labels for why the probe fails: maybe one for the mechanism, and one for the reason. Or something.
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  107. jonas’ I don’t think that would be a valid use of labels
  108. jonas’ (they should be low-cardinality)
  109. jonas’ it could be made to export all offered SASL mechansims though
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  112. jonas’ https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter#build--usage more example output
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  114. pep. That could replace xmpp.net to some extent I guess :)
  115. jonas’ that’s not the intention
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  118. jonas’ and ralph hasn’t even shouted at me yet, which is good
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  145. ralphm Hah. Indeed I approve!
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  184. Mikaela Hi, how does XMPP handle organisations with 55 channels and managing them simultaneously e.g. by adding a moderator to all of them? https://talk.feneas.org/t/federated-instant-messenger-with-easy-access-control/68?u=mikaela
  185. pep. I'm not sure I get the question. What kind of "managing" are you talking about?
  186. pep. The way I'm picturing it atm is that it could very well be done the same way as IRC with a bot on each room, or at the server level directly. I don't know any specification for that
  187. pep. Or even with a client.
  188. Mikaela If I had 55 XMPP MUCs, how would I add/remove moderators in all of them simultaneously? In IRC I can create a GroupServ group and give the GroupServ group access to 55 IRC channels and then add users to the group with flag +c so they would have access to everything the group can do
  189. lovetox Mikaela, you develop server software that lets you do this
  190. pep. GroupServ is not an IRC thing right? It's an implementation detail on some IRC network?
  191. lovetox what you are asking is basically you have a muc component on a server and want to administrate it in some ways
  192. Mikaela I don't think this is very rare scenario, maybe the number of MUCs is, but I am under impression that XMPP and even Matrix think they are better than IRC, but they cannot handle groups at all. Then Slack came and it has same administrators in all rooms and now Riot wants to replace it and it seems unable to handle this scenario. I was hoping maybe I am wrong and XMPP handles this somehow natively, but I guess it's not designed for big teams either
  193. lovetox first server developers would need to give you these administration features
  194. Mikaela GroupServ is part of Atheme IRC services, I am not sure if ANope has these
  195. lovetox then clients could expose them via ad hoc commands to the server
  196. pep. Mikaela, it's entirely doable, just that apparently nobody has needed this before
  197. Mikaela I am happy to hear that
  198. pep. Also, it's not hard to be better than IRC, when all the features are not native to the protocol but just implementation details :)
  199. lovetox Mikaela, i understand the use case, but this is rather easy to do, but needs no XEP standards whatsoever
  200. lovetox just write a plugin for prosody or ejabberd, that adds a jid to some muc member list table
  201. pep. hmm, you might need to redefine the group on each MUC component though
  202. lovetox to execute this method we have already working mechanisms like ad hoc commands, where servers offer administration features
  203. Daniel Yeah since you are in the channel for the protocol xmpp and not any specific implementation the answer is its pretty doable. If I were to be hired to do this (hypothetical) I'd to pretty much exactly what lovetox is suggesting. Write prosody module to configure global moderators. Expose control over adhoc
  204. Daniel Also not sure if this covers your use case but server admins on ejabberd are automatically owners of every muc
  205. pep. same in prosody
  206. pep. But that doesn't cover the "group" thing, nor the "at the same time" I guess
  207. Daniel I mean it's probably not exactly what you need but it shows that something like this is possible
  208. pep. It's all possible but it would be local to a MUC component always
  209. Mikaela It does partially, but I guess ideally all the admins wouldn't be server owners, but I am happy with these answers, thank you
  210. pep. Mikaela, in prosody you can add component admins as well
  211. pep. (I guess there's something similar in ejabberd?)
  212. Daniel Or make a bot that is server admin. That you can use to delegate this to
  213. Daniel That would allow you to script in every language
  214. Daniel And not just the language the server is written in
  215. pep. Someday we'll have prosody modules written in Rust! :)
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  219. Daniel wrt mix it is interesting that I see more and more people asking for IRC level controls. Even 'voice' with voice by default presumably for the ability to soft ban people temporarily is something that people are now asking for
  220. Daniel With channels becoming bigger and easier to find
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  222. pep. Does MIX not have some kind of access control?
  223. Daniel https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#voice-control
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  225. lovetox https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5 mentions a non-jid example quotation marks are not allowed in a localpart
  226. lovetox but the defined UserCaseMapping, has no problems with this
  227. pep. Daniel, hmm
  228. Daniel to be clear i'm not advocating for it to be in there
  229. Daniel it's just interesting to me. because until recently i didn’t think people needed that stuff
  230. pep. Well tbh it's not like there's many people in our public rooms either
  231. pep. I haven't seen that used on IRC for something other than spam-related stuff though
  232. Daniel oh from my brief experience the moderators of that one fairly popular public MUC are pretty strict and try to get every one on topic and even kick people and stuff
  233. Daniel which is not really how i would handle that and that's the reason i'm not in that muc
  234. Daniel but maybe being strict on that kinda stuff is also why they are so popular
  235. Daniel dunno
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  276. lovetox from where does the rule come that Leading spaces in resourcepart is not allowed?
  277. Zash Do you mean Nicknames?
  278. Zash I don't think there's such a rule for resourceparts
  279. lovetox https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5
  280. lovetox scroll to invalid examples
  281. lovetox the definition of resourcepart says only to apply opaqueString profile
  282. lovetox which at least in my impl has no problems with spaces also not in first place
  283. Zash Ah, must be new in the PRECIS based JID definition
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  286. Zash I don't see that anywhere else
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  288. Daniel PRECIS is going to be a problem if we ever actually do this
  289. lovetox what do you mean? im doing this already :D
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  291. Daniel and you run into problems
  292. Zash I don't see where this is forbidden
  293. lovetox I also dont but somewhere it is, i cant change my nick on a ejabberd
  294. Daniel i vaguely remember trailing and leading spaces get normalized to nothing
  295. Zash I thought it was only for nicknames as per https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8266#section-5
  296. lovetox i also dont get jid malformed, it just leaves the space
  297. Daniel so ' test' becomes 'test'
  298. Daniel but i might be wrong
  299. Zash In some more abstract PRECIS class or?
  300. lovetox Daniel it seem so, i have no problem with that but i want to read were it actually says that
  301. lovetox Zash but we dont use the Nickname class
  302. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8264 doesn't say anything
  303. Daniel i string prep ' ' is a valid resource. in precis it gets normalized to nothing, which then is not a valid resource
  304. Daniel or something
  305. lovetox Daniel, yes but there is additional rules
  306. lovetox and resourcepart has to be at least 1 char
  307. lovetox precis does not enforce ALL rules
  308. lovetox we have in xmpp
  309. lovetox but most of it, the rest you have to check yourself
  310. lovetox but i dont find anything about the leading and trailing space thing
  311. Zash Huh
  312. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6885#appendix-B.7 says that in resourceprep > Mapping: Spaces are mapped to nothing
  313. waqas All spaces or just spaces at the start?
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  316. Zash This seems to be a lie
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  318. Zash Or mistake
  319. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3920#appendix-B doesn't explicitly say so
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  324. Zash Unless by pointing to the entire https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454#section-5 it includes spaces too
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  326. lovetox But in 7564 it says that Opaque strings such as passwords and nicknames (PRECIS-Nickname)
  327. Zash Link Mauve, your nickname is forbidden!
  328. lovetox so maybe there is somewhere something thats says to actually use PRECIS-Nickname
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  330. Zash But resources are not nicknames
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  332. Zash Are we descending into OOP-y class hierarchy madness now?
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  334. lovetox no? pretty sure MUC speaks of resources when talking about nicknames
  335. Zash You misunderstand
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  337. Zash Nicknames are resources
  338. Zash Resources are not nicknames
  339. Zash Nicknames are a subset/subclass of resourecs
  340. lovetox yes ! i see my mistake !
  341. Zash And resources are a subclass of opaquestring, which is a subclass of freeformstring, which is .. something?
  342. Zash Please correct me if I'm not reading these twenty-eleven RFCs correctly
  343. Zash I need a class tree viewer thing
  344. lovetox im having currently 10 RFCs open in my browser to figure this shit out
  345. lovetox it should not be that hard :D
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  347. Zash P͞r͏e̢pa͞ra҉tion,̸ ̶E̕nf̸orcem̨ent, and̢ ̧C͘o̵m̛p̵̵a̛͢r͟͞͠isơ͢͠n ̧͠o҉͘͢f ̡I̸͠n͞t͞ę̵͡r͘n̵͠͏a̡͠t̛͝i̵̕o͟n̢̛ą́l͟͝͝i͟҉zed͏ ̴̲̝̰̼͍ͪS̼̟̭̲͕̪̅̉͌͐̑t̞̕r̘̬̯̫ͧͨi͈̩̚ņ̞ͬ͊̍͐ͪ̈́̚g̽s̷̆ͣ̃ͧ̇ͯ ͯͫͣ͏̜͓̬͖̻i͈͎͕̳͚̫͕͑́̑̄̂ͪn̸̫̩̖̳̥͖̹̎ A͔̝̦̗̫ͅp͌͆p̨̜͙̋͆ͮ̃l̰̱̲̯̮̞͖̆͋ͯͮį̫̜̺̉ͯ͌̆ͣͮc̞̥̟̥̹͎̖ͯ̒͋á͖͖͕̭͎̦̅̈͝t̸̫̳̩̝̖͉̟̍ͮ̈́ȉ̪̂͊͞ỏ̶͔͉͇̰̹̺͎̏̈́̎̃n̬̣͇̤̝̱̂̂̑͑͂͡ ̵͂ͭͧ̽P̤͚̰̙ͧ̍̔ͫr͇͍͊ͭ̋̒̊̉o̸̯͍tͭ͑ͪ̋̃oͧ̽ͮ̓̈̌͂c̾͂̕ǒ͉͔̰l̛̯͔͈̟ͯ̽́s̡̳͙̣͖͙͐̏
  348. Zash The ̴F̢re̕eFor͝mCl̛ass͢ does not forbid spaces!
  349. lovetox looks crazy
  350. lovetox how you do this?
  351. Zash Cl̢as̡s͟ hie͞r̵ar͠c҉h̡y̴ ̶m̷adne̴s̡s ̧e̴n͡s͝u͡e҉s̸!̀
  352. waqas Or we can stick with the simpler times, and believe in the alternate universe where PRECIS never happened.
  353. Daniel ascii is pretty much all i need
  354. Zash Daniel, why do you hate ÅÄÖ?
  355. Zash waqas, the universe we (prosody) are currently living in, with stringprep and IDNA2003?
  356. waqas Yes
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  358. Zash Ugh, don't TLS on 5222! Gaaah
  359. Zash (direct)
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  372. ralphm Right
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  395. moparisthebest Zash: if a public port can't handle literally any trash thrown at it I'm afraid you've done something wrong
  396. Zash Sure it can handle it, but it's a pain to look at
  397. moparisthebest If, say, it causes binary gunk in a log file that's a bug to fix in the server not a "please stop"
  398. Zash The binary gunk I saw in nginx log files from things shoving TLS at port 80 was painful too.
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