XSF Discussion - 2019-06-30

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07:30:29 jonas’ pep., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09LU6XVyxs&t=4s ?
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08:26:26 jonas’ I made a thing: https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter
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11:15:27 ralphm Cool. Do you have an example output?
11:15:42 ralphm jonas’
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11:21:05 jonas’ ralphm, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/588851b3/
11:22:47 ralphm Cool. You could add labels for why the probe fails: maybe one for the mechanism, and one for the reason. Or something.
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11:23:06 jonas’ I don’t think that would be a valid use of labels
11:23:15 jonas’ (they should be low-cardinality)
11:23:22 jonas’ it could be made to export all offered SASL mechansims though
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11:30:04 jonas’ https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter#build--usage more example output
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11:31:32 pep. That could replace xmpp.net to some extent I guess :)
11:31:41 jonas’ that’s not the intention
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11:35:32 jonas’ and ralph hasn’t even shouted at me yet, which is good
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12:46:43 ralphm Hah. Indeed I approve!
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15:01:15 Mikaela Hi, how does XMPP handle organisations with 55 channels and managing them simultaneously e.g. by adding a moderator to all of them? https://talk.feneas.org/t/federated-instant-messenger-with-easy-access-control/68?u=mikaela
15:04:20 pep. I'm not sure I get the question. What kind of "managing" are you talking about?
15:05:35 pep. The way I'm picturing it atm is that it could very well be done the same way as IRC with a bot on each room, or at the server level directly. I don't know any specification for that
15:06:13 pep. Or even with a client.
15:06:29 Mikaela If I had 55 XMPP MUCs, how would I add/remove moderators in all of them simultaneously? In IRC I can create a GroupServ group and give the GroupServ group access to 55 IRC channels and then add users to the group with flag +c so they would have access to everything the group can do
15:07:11 lovetox Mikaela, you develop server software that lets you do this
15:07:15 pep. GroupServ is not an IRC thing right? It's an implementation detail on some IRC network?
15:08:18 lovetox what you are asking is basically you have a muc component on a server and want to administrate it in some ways
15:08:28 Mikaela I don't think this is very rare scenario, maybe the number of MUCs is, but I am under impression that XMPP and even Matrix think they are better than IRC, but they cannot handle groups at all. Then Slack came and it has same administrators in all rooms and now Riot wants to replace it and it seems unable to handle this scenario. I was hoping maybe I am wrong and XMPP handles this somehow natively, but I guess it's not designed for big teams either
15:08:39 lovetox first server developers would need to give you these administration features
15:08:41 Mikaela GroupServ is part of Atheme IRC services, I am not sure if ANope has these
15:08:48 lovetox then clients could expose them via ad hoc commands to the server
15:09:09 pep. Mikaela, it's entirely doable, just that apparently nobody has needed this before
15:09:19 Mikaela I am happy to hear that
15:09:37 pep. Also, it's not hard to be better than IRC, when all the features are not native to the protocol but just implementation details :)
15:10:11 lovetox Mikaela, i understand the use case, but this is rather easy to do, but needs no XEP standards whatsoever
15:10:28 lovetox just write a plugin for prosody or ejabberd, that adds a jid to some muc member list table
15:11:07 pep. hmm, you might need to redefine the group on each MUC component though
15:11:14 lovetox to execute this method we have already working mechanisms like ad hoc commands, where servers offer administration features
15:11:51 Daniel Yeah since you are in the channel for the protocol xmpp and not any specific implementation the answer is its pretty doable. If I were to be hired to do this (hypothetical) I'd to pretty much exactly what lovetox is suggesting. Write prosody module to configure global moderators. Expose control over adhoc
15:12:54 Daniel Also not sure if this covers your use case but server admins on ejabberd are automatically owners of every muc
15:13:01 pep. same in prosody
15:13:26 pep. But that doesn't cover the "group" thing, nor the "at the same time" I guess
15:13:33 Daniel I mean it's probably not exactly what you need but it shows that something like this is possible
15:13:41 pep. It's all possible but it would be local to a MUC component always
15:13:54 Mikaela It does partially, but I guess ideally all the admins wouldn't be server owners, but I am happy with these answers, thank you
15:14:17 pep. Mikaela, in prosody you can add component admins as well
15:14:27 pep. (I guess there's something similar in ejabberd?)
15:14:39 Daniel Or make a bot that is server admin. That you can use to delegate this to
15:14:49 Daniel That would allow you to script in every language
15:14:59 Daniel And not just the language the server is written in
15:15:21 pep. Someday we'll have prosody modules written in Rust! :)
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15:26:44 Daniel wrt mix it is interesting that I see more and more people asking for IRC level controls. Even 'voice' with voice by default presumably for the ability to soft ban people temporarily is something that people are now asking for
15:26:59 Daniel With channels becoming bigger and easier to find
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15:28:06 pep. Does MIX not have some kind of access control?
15:31:01 Daniel https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#voice-control
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15:32:07 lovetox https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5 mentions a non-jid example quotation marks are not allowed in a localpart
15:32:19 lovetox but the defined UserCaseMapping, has no problems with this
15:32:26 pep. Daniel, hmm
15:32:42 Daniel to be clear i'm not advocating for it to be in there
15:33:16 Daniel it's just interesting to me. because until recently i didn’t think people needed that stuff
15:33:49 pep. Well tbh it's not like there's many people in our public rooms either
15:34:19 pep. I haven't seen that used on IRC for something other than spam-related stuff though
15:35:38 Daniel oh from my brief experience the moderators of that one fairly popular public MUC are pretty strict and try to get every one on topic and even kick people and stuff
15:36:03 Daniel which is not really how i would handle that and that's the reason i'm not in that muc
15:36:26 Daniel but maybe being strict on that kinda stuff is also why they are so popular
15:36:27 Daniel dunno
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17:35:48 lovetox from where does the rule come that Leading spaces in resourcepart is not allowed?
17:36:22 Zash Do you mean Nicknames?
17:36:42 Zash I don't think there's such a rule for resourceparts
17:36:53 lovetox https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5
17:36:57 lovetox scroll to invalid examples
17:37:34 lovetox the definition of resourcepart says only to apply opaqueString profile
17:37:52 lovetox which at least in my impl has no problems with spaces also not in first place
17:38:09 Zash Ah, must be new in the PRECIS based JID definition
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17:40:22 Zash I don't see that anywhere else
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17:42:58 Daniel PRECIS is going to be a problem if we ever actually do this
17:43:15 lovetox what do you mean? im doing this already :D
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17:43:33 Daniel and you run into problems
17:43:42 Zash I don't see where this is forbidden
17:44:28 lovetox I also dont but somewhere it is, i cant change my nick on a ejabberd
17:44:33 Daniel i vaguely remember trailing and leading spaces get normalized to nothing
17:44:35 Zash I thought it was only for nicknames as per https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8266#section-5
17:44:39 lovetox i also dont get jid malformed, it just leaves the space
17:44:40 Daniel so ' test' becomes 'test'
17:44:51 Daniel but i might be wrong
17:45:04 Zash In some more abstract PRECIS class or?
17:45:27 lovetox Daniel it seem so, i have no problem with that but i want to read were it actually says that
17:45:37 lovetox Zash but we dont use the Nickname class
17:45:38 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8264 doesn't say anything
17:46:33 Daniel i string prep ' ' is a valid resource. in precis it gets normalized to nothing, which then is not a valid resource
17:46:35 Daniel or something
17:47:10 lovetox Daniel, yes but there is additional rules
17:47:17 lovetox and resourcepart has to be at least 1 char
17:47:25 lovetox precis does not enforce ALL rules
17:47:31 lovetox we have in xmpp
17:47:40 lovetox but most of it, the rest you have to check yourself
17:47:57 lovetox but i dont find anything about the leading and trailing space thing
17:49:19 Zash Huh
17:49:55 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6885#appendix-B.7 says that in resourceprep > Mapping: Spaces are mapped to nothing
17:50:46 waqas All spaces or just spaces at the start?
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17:51:43 Zash This seems to be a lie
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17:51:47 Zash Or mistake
17:52:44 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3920#appendix-B doesn't explicitly say so
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17:54:38 Zash Unless by pointing to the entire https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454#section-5 it includes spaces too
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17:59:45 lovetox But in 7564 it says that Opaque strings such as passwords and nicknames (PRECIS-Nickname)
18:00:17 Zash Link Mauve, your nickname is forbidden!
18:00:34 lovetox so maybe there is somewhere something thats says to actually use PRECIS-Nickname
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18:01:45 Zash But resources are not nicknames
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18:02:41 Zash Are we descending into OOP-y class hierarchy madness now?
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18:03:27 lovetox no? pretty sure MUC speaks of resources when talking about nicknames
18:03:54 Zash You misunderstand
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18:04:00 Zash Nicknames are resources
18:04:06 Zash Resources are not nicknames
18:04:20 Zash Nicknames are a subset/subclass of resourecs
18:04:27 lovetox yes ! i see my mistake !
18:04:58 Zash And resources are a subclass of opaquestring, which is a subclass of freeformstring, which is .. something?
18:05:15 Zash Please correct me if I'm not reading these twenty-eleven RFCs correctly
18:05:45 Zash I need a class tree viewer thing
18:05:48 lovetox im having currently 10 RFCs open in my browser to figure this shit out
18:05:51 lovetox it should not be that hard :D
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18:07:57 Zash P͞r͏e̢pa͞ra҉tion,̸ ̶E̕nf̸orcem̨ent, and̢ ̧C͘o̵m̛p̵̵a̛͢r͟͞͠isơ͢͠n ̧͠o҉͘͢f ̡I̸͠n͞t͞ę̵͡r͘n̵͠͏a̡͠t̛͝i̵̕o͟n̢̛ą́l͟͝͝i͟҉zed͏ ̴̲̝̰̼͍ͪS̼̟̭̲͕̪̅̉͌͐̑t̞̕r̘̬̯̫ͧͨi͈̩̚ņ̞ͬ͊̍͐ͪ̈́̚g̽s̷̆ͣ̃ͧ̇ͯ ͯͫͣ͏̜͓̬͖̻i͈͎͕̳͚̫͕͑́̑̄̂ͪn̸̫̩̖̳̥͖̹̎ A͔̝̦̗̫ͅp͌͆p̨̜͙̋͆ͮ̃l̰̱̲̯̮̞͖̆͋ͯͮį̫̜̺̉ͯ͌̆ͣͮc̞̥̟̥̹͎̖ͯ̒͋á͖͖͕̭͎̦̅̈͝t̸̫̳̩̝̖͉̟̍ͮ̈́ȉ̪̂͊͞ỏ̶͔͉͇̰̹̺͎̏̈́̎̃n̬̣͇̤̝̱̂̂̑͑͂͡ ̵͂ͭͧ̽P̤͚̰̙ͧ̍̔ͫr͇͍͊ͭ̋̒̊̉o̸̯͍tͭ͑ͪ̋̃oͧ̽ͮ̓̈̌͂c̾͂̕ǒ͉͔̰l̛̯͔͈̟ͯ̽́s̡̳͙̣͖͙͐̏
18:08:33 Zash The ̴F̢re̕eFor͝mCl̛ass͢ does not forbid spaces!
18:08:34 lovetox looks crazy
18:08:47 lovetox how you do this?
18:09:09 Zash Cl̢as̡s͟ hie͞r̵ar͠c҉h̡y̴ ̶m̷adne̴s̡s ̧e̴n͡s͝u͡e҉s̸!̀
18:09:12 waqas Or we can stick with the simpler times, and believe in the alternate universe where PRECIS never happened.
18:09:27 Daniel ascii is pretty much all i need
18:09:41 Zash Daniel, why do you hate ÅÄÖ?
18:12:46 Zash waqas, the universe we (prosody) are currently living in, with stringprep and IDNA2003?
18:12:58 waqas Yes
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18:27:38 Zash Ugh, don't TLS on 5222! Gaaah
18:27:58 Zash (direct)
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19:07:27 ralphm Right
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20:24:41 moparisthebest Zash: if a public port can't handle literally any trash thrown at it I'm afraid you've done something wrong
20:25:28 Zash Sure it can handle it, but it's a pain to look at
20:25:30 moparisthebest If, say, it causes binary gunk in a log file that's a bug to fix in the server not a "please stop"
20:26:08 Zash The binary gunk I saw in nginx log files from things shoving TLS at port 80 was painful too.
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