XSF Discussion - 2019-06-30

pep., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09LU6XVyxs&t=4s ?

I made a thing: https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter

Cool. Do you have an example output?

jonas’

ralphm, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/588851b3/

Cool. You could add labels for why the probe fails: maybe one for the mechanism, and one for the reason. Or something.

I don’t think that would be a valid use of labels

(they should be low-cardinality)

it could be made to export all offered SASL mechansims though

https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter#build--usage more example output

That could replace xmpp.net to some extent I guess :)

that’s not the intention

and ralph hasn’t even shouted at me yet, which is good

Hah. Indeed I approve!

Hi, how does XMPP handle organisations with 55 channels and managing them simultaneously e.g. by adding a moderator to all of them? https://talk.feneas.org/t/federated-instant-messenger-with-easy-access-control/68?u=mikaela

I'm not sure I get the question. What kind of "managing" are you talking about?

The way I'm picturing it atm is that it could very well be done the same way as IRC with a bot on each room, or at the server level directly. I don't know any specification for that

Or even with a client.

If I had 55 XMPP MUCs, how would I add/remove moderators in all of them simultaneously? In IRC I can create a GroupServ group and give the GroupServ group access to 55 IRC channels and then add users to the group with flag +c so they would have access to everything the group can do

Mikaela, you develop server software that lets you do this

GroupServ is not an IRC thing right? It's an implementation detail on some IRC network?

what you are asking is basically you have a muc component on a server and want to administrate it in some ways

I don't think this is very rare scenario, maybe the number of MUCs is, but I am under impression that XMPP and even Matrix think they are better than IRC, but they cannot handle groups at all. Then Slack came and it has same administrators in all rooms and now Riot wants to replace it and it seems unable to handle this scenario. I was hoping maybe I am wrong and XMPP handles this somehow natively, but I guess it's not designed for big teams either

first server developers would need to give you these administration features

GroupServ is part of Atheme IRC services, I am not sure if ANope has these

then clients could expose them via ad hoc commands to the server

Mikaela, it's entirely doable, just that apparently nobody has needed this before

I am happy to hear that

Also, it's not hard to be better than IRC, when all the features are not native to the protocol but just implementation details :)

Mikaela, i understand the use case, but this is rather easy to do, but needs no XEP standards whatsoever

just write a plugin for prosody or ejabberd, that adds a jid to some muc member list table

hmm, you might need to redefine the group on each MUC component though

to execute this method we have already working mechanisms like ad hoc commands, where servers offer administration features

Yeah since you are in the channel for the protocol xmpp and not any specific implementation the answer is its pretty doable. If I were to be hired to do this (hypothetical) I'd to pretty much exactly what lovetox is suggesting. Write prosody module to configure global moderators. Expose control over adhoc

Also not sure if this covers your use case but server admins on ejabberd are automatically owners of every muc

same in prosody

But that doesn't cover the "group" thing, nor the "at the same time" I guess

I mean it's probably not exactly what you need but it shows that something like this is possible

It's all possible but it would be local to a MUC component always

It does partially, but I guess ideally all the admins wouldn't be server owners, but I am happy with these answers, thank you

Mikaela, in prosody you can add component admins as well

(I guess there's something similar in ejabberd?)

Or make a bot that is server admin. That you can use to delegate this to

That would allow you to script in every language

And not just the language the server is written in

Someday we'll have prosody modules written in Rust! :)

wrt mix it is interesting that I see more and more people asking for IRC level controls. Even 'voice' with voice by default presumably for the ability to soft ban people temporarily is something that people are now asking for

With channels becoming bigger and easier to find

Does MIX not have some kind of access control?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#voice-control

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5 mentions a non-jid example quotation marks are not allowed in a localpart

but the defined UserCaseMapping, has no problems with this

Daniel, hmm

to be clear i'm not advocating for it to be in there

it's just interesting to me. because until recently i didn’t think people needed that stuff

Well tbh it's not like there's many people in our public rooms either

I haven't seen that used on IRC for something other than spam-related stuff though

oh from my brief experience the moderators of that one fairly popular public MUC are pretty strict and try to get every one on topic and even kick people and stuff

which is not really how i would handle that and that's the reason i'm not in that muc

but maybe being strict on that kinda stuff is also why they are so popular

dunno

from where does the rule come that Leading spaces in resourcepart is not allowed?

Do you mean Nicknames?

I don't think there's such a rule for resourceparts

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.5

scroll to invalid examples

the definition of resourcepart says only to apply opaqueString profile

which at least in my impl has no problems with spaces also not in first place

Ah, must be new in the PRECIS based JID definition

I don't see that anywhere else

PRECIS is going to be a problem if we ever actually do this

what do you mean? im doing this already :D

and you run into problems

I don't see where this is forbidden

I also dont but somewhere it is, i cant change my nick on a ejabberd

i vaguely remember trailing and leading spaces get normalized to nothing

I thought it was only for nicknames as per https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8266#section-5

i also dont get jid malformed, it just leaves the space

so ' test' becomes 'test'

but i might be wrong

In some more abstract PRECIS class or?

Daniel it seem so, i have no problem with that but i want to read were it actually says that

Zash but we dont use the Nickname class

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8264 doesn't say anything

i string prep ' ' is a valid resource. in precis it gets normalized to nothing, which then is not a valid resource

or something

Daniel, yes but there is additional rules

and resourcepart has to be at least 1 char

precis does not enforce ALL rules

we have in xmpp

but most of it, the rest you have to check yourself

but i dont find anything about the leading and trailing space thing

Huh

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6885#appendix-B.7 says that in resourceprep > Mapping: Spaces are mapped to nothing

All spaces or just spaces at the start?

This seems to be a lie

Or mistake

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3920#appendix-B doesn't explicitly say so

Unless by pointing to the entire https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454#section-5 it includes spaces too

But in 7564 it says that Opaque strings such as passwords and nicknames (PRECIS-Nickname)

Link Mauve, your nickname is forbidden!

so maybe there is somewhere something thats says to actually use PRECIS-Nickname

But resources are not nicknames

Are we descending into OOP-y class hierarchy madness now?

no? pretty sure MUC speaks of resources when talking about nicknames

You misunderstand

Nicknames are resources

Resources are not nicknames

Nicknames are a subset/subclass of resourecs

yes ! i see my mistake !

And resources are a subclass of opaquestring, which is a subclass of freeformstring, which is .. something?

Please correct me if I'm not reading these twenty-eleven RFCs correctly

I need a class tree viewer thing

im having currently 10 RFCs open in my browser to figure this shit out

it should not be that hard :D

P͞r͏e̢pa͞ra҉tion,̸ ̶E̕nf̸orcem̨ent, and̢ ̧C͘o̵m̛p̵̵a̛͢r͟͞͠isơ͢͠n ̧͠o҉͘͢f ̡I̸͠n͞t͞ę̵͡r͘n̵͠͏a̡͠t̛͝i̵̕o͟n̢̛ą́l͟͝͝i͟҉zed͏ ̴̲̝̰̼͍ͪS̼̟̭̲͕̪̅̉͌͐̑t̞̕r̘̬̯̫ͧͨi͈̩̚ņ̞ͬ͊̍͐ͪ̈́̚g̽s̷̆ͣ̃ͧ̇ͯ ͯͫͣ͏̜͓̬͖̻i͈͎͕̳͚̫͕͑́̑̄̂ͪn̸̫̩̖̳̥͖̹̎ A͔̝̦̗̫ͅp͌͆p̨̜͙̋͆ͮ̃l̰̱̲̯̮̞͖̆͋ͯͮį̫̜̺̉ͯ͌̆ͣͮc̞̥̟̥̹͎̖ͯ̒͋á͖͖͕̭͎̦̅̈͝t̸̫̳̩̝̖͉̟̍ͮ̈́ȉ̪̂͊͞ỏ̶͔͉͇̰̹̺͎̏̈́̎̃n̬̣͇̤̝̱̂̂̑͑͂͡ ̵͂ͭͧ̽P̤͚̰̙ͧ̍̔ͫr͇͍͊ͭ̋̒̊̉o̸̯͍tͭ͑ͪ̋̃oͧ̽ͮ̓̈̌͂c̾͂̕ǒ͉͔̰l̛̯͔͈̟ͯ̽́s̡̳͙̣͖͙͐̏

The ̴F̢re̕eFor͝mCl̛ass͢ does not forbid spaces!

looks crazy

how you do this?

Cl̢as̡s͟ hie͞r̵ar͠c҉h̡y̴ ̶m̷adne̴s̡s ̧e̴n͡s͝u͡e҉s̸!̀

Or we can stick with the simpler times, and believe in the alternate universe where PRECIS never happened.

ascii is pretty much all i need

Daniel, why do you hate ÅÄÖ?

waqas, the universe we (prosody) are currently living in, with stringprep and IDNA2003?

Yes

Ugh, don't TLS on 5222! Gaaah

(direct)

Right

Zash: if a public port can't handle literally any trash thrown at it I'm afraid you've done something wrong

Sure it can handle it, but it's a pain to look at

If, say, it causes binary gunk in a log file that's a bug to fix in the server not a "please stop"

The binary gunk I saw in nginx log files from things shoving TLS at port 80 was painful too.