XSF Discussion - 2019-07-08

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  78. rion according to "Council Minutes" emails it seems it's hardly possible xsf will accept any significnt changes to jingle s5b. So I think what if I propose another s5b based protocol under different namespace, will it have better chances to be accepted?
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  83. jonas’ unlikely
  84. jonas’ that’d probably fall under duplication
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  86. rion then probably I have to hurry up with sctp+dtls transport implementation while it's still "Deferred"
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  89. jonas’ rion, to be clear, I don’t like this situation at all myself
  90. jonas’ I’m not sure what to do about it though
  91. jonas’ The list is often rather silent on Jingle-related issues, presumably because of its complexity. So there are a few choices: (1) council trusts the submitters of patches and allows them through, assuming that those who patch jingle are those who are most familiar with it because they implement it; (2) we replace jingle by something simpler, causing yet another rift in the ecosystem; (3) we stall jingle until we find some trusted reviewers for the patches or a similar mechanism.
  92. jonas’ currently we seem to be kind of passively ending up in situation (3)
  93. Daniel jonas’: I've observed the same pattern with any of the more complex / less implemented xeps
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  96. Daniel More in-depth questions for example regarding pubsub seemingly hit the same wall of silance
  97. jonas’ and I find pubsub not even *that* complex
  98. rion fippo had some review of my change. at least I trust him and I think others too :) According to him there is another way with different pros/cons and he implemented it in some client.
  99. jonas’ rion, until last week, I didn’t even know who "fippo" is :)
  100. jonas’ so it’s not as easy and clear cut sometimes
  101. Daniel We should probably block a lot of those until we have more (open source) experience with them. For example once the last call for message init it out I will suggest to hold it. I'm planning an implementation for later this year and based on the fact that my implementation will only be the second one that's a good reason to gain some more experience with it imho
  102. rion message init?
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  105. jonas’ jingle message initiation
  106. jonas’ a non-iq flow to initiate jingle sessions
  107. Ge0rG IMHO, the XSF Council should be, in theory, knowledgeable in all aspects of XMPP. However, with over 400 XEPs, this is simply not feasible. So I think that (3) is the most viable way forward, and for Jingle we should maybe have three volunteers with sufficient experience to chime in
  108. rion ah. I'm going to implement it too but not sure how soon
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  110. jonas’ I wonder whether we should use Last Call to find folks who are knowledgeable in the spec and not advance it unless there are any
  111. jonas’ but that of course does not help with the typical human churn in ecosystems
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  113. Daniel jonas’: isn't that literally the point of last call
  114. jonas’ Daniel, no, the last call is for feedback (in my understanding)
  115. jonas’ not for writing down the names of the poor souls who *provided* feedback as victims for future review requests :)
  116. Daniel i mean it's almost funny. with simple xeps like http upload you got tons of bike shedding which prevents it from going through call because everyone seems to have an opinion. and the complex xeps 'nobody' understands just go through
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  119. Ge0rG yeah, that's rather sad.
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  122. jonas’ that’s the specific definition of bike shedding, isn’t it?
  123. fippo the situation wasn't much different for RFC 6120...
  124. fippo message init has been implemented and from what i discussed with lance it was with mam enabled even
  125. fippo and the case that was raised on list (need to reply...) seemed unlikely unless you consider cases like hunt groups where multiple people use the same account
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  129. Ge0rG fippo: I'm very much interested in the interaction of message init (actually all non-directly-IM use cases of messages) with MAM and Carbons
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  131. Ge0rG especially under the new Carbon rules which are apparently widely ignored.
  132. fippo ge0rg: its a bigger topic, yeah. it was originally designed to interact well with both ("did i have a call from that person" - mam; "i took the call on the other device" - carbons)
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  177. ralphm At VEON we used dedicated messages for the latter. We called them CDRs, although I'm not sure if that was the right call (haha).
  178. ralphm https://ralphm.net/publications/xmpp_chat_voip/#/6/4
  179. ralphm (example below this slide)
  180. ralphm We didn't get to submit a proper XEP on it, but I probably should.
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  193. ralphm (Ge0rG, fippo)
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  195. Ge0rG > I probably should This happens everywhere in the XSF, doesn't it? :)
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  199. ralphm Ge0rG: a company shutting down your project and development team tends to change its one's priorities.
  200. ralphm Ge0rG: a company shutting down your project and development team tends to change one's priorities.
  201. Ge0rG ralphm: not trying to criticize you, it's just a general sentiment
  202. fippo ralphm: i never dared to call anything CDR inside a telco :-)
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  205. dwd fippo, I called things CDRs, but only because they were.
  206. dwd Ge0rG, It's nice when the Council has members with direct knowledge and experience of a subject area. Where we don't, I hope people at least know someone they trust and can ask for a review. That's certainly how I work - I don't claim any serious understanding of VOIP, for example, but I'm pretty confident that fippo knows a thing or two.
  207. ralphm fippo: haha
  208. ralphm I read most messages by fippo and it made sense, but I didn't respond. Should I do more "I agree" messages?
  209. Ge0rG dwd: that's a great way to work indeed. But maybe we can formalize that out just a little bit, with "trusted people" being loosely defined for certain topics like Jingle, and "ask for a review" happening on-list?
  210. dwd Ge0rG, I think if we wanted to formalize it, I'd say we should form a SIG and/or Work Team for it and formalize it that way.
  211. dwd ralphm, Yes. Speaking personally, a whole bunch of "I agree", and "Me too", is very useful for me to gauge consensus on things.
  212. Zash Silence is agreement!
  213. dwd Zash, It's not though. It's just silence. And if we choose to interpret silence in a particular way, it becomes quite complex to judge almost anything.
  214. dwd Zash, IoW, All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
  215. jonas’ especially on topics I’m not familiar with, I don’t know if silence is due to other people also not being familiar, or whether there’s truly a horde of folks who know things and simply agree in silence
  216. Zash s/for .*/negative parlamentarism/ ? :)
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  219. ralphm Ok, I'll speak up more.
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  221. jonas’ we need simple mailing list reactions :)
  222. Zash `Content-Type: human/reaction; charset=utf-8`
  223. Ge0rG ralphm: that'd be great
  224. fippo a jingle directorate? but remember, its already hard work to get people to review stuff
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  228. dwd jonas’, I sometimes wonder if we shouldn't switch to thumbs up/thumbs down/comments on PRs as the feedback of record.
  229. jonas’ but that would be fully moving to GitHub
  230. jonas’ but only for PRs
  231. dwd jonas’, Move off mailing lists totally, and maybe see about integrating chatroom archive fragments into PRs.
  232. jonas’ which is kind of meh, because there’s then no single source of truth for technical discussion
  233. dwd jonas’, Well, PRs and issues.
  234. jonas’ I see
  235. jonas’ I’m not fond of that
  236. Zash I do not approve
  237. dwd jonas’, I'm not wild about the idea either. But I wonder whether mailing lists are really the most appropriate thing these days.
  238. jonas’ haven’t seen anything else with that fine-grained multi-device synchronising read marker support.
  239. Ge0rG dwd: essentially anyone can +1 or -1 on github, and sometimes PRs go viral and get thousands of useless votes
  240. dwd Ge0rG, For sure.
  241. dwd Ge0rG, Any alternative I could suggest to mailing lists would get the same push-back, of course.
  242. Daniel maybe github allows us to limit that to members
  243. dwd Ge0rG, My question is not, therefore, "Is X a perfect solution?" but "Is X better for us than mailing lists?"
  244. jonas’ one thing which mailing lists give me which nothing else has been able to so far is what I mentioned above: I can read parts of a thread, mark them as read when I not only read/looked at it, but also understood it, and have that state synchronised across my clients.
  245. dwd Ge0rG, And, of course, discussing such things on a mailing list are a recipe for survivorship bias of sorts.
  246. jonas’ which is vital for how I work
  247. jonas’ no web-based system has had that yet.
  248. dwd jonas’, Yes, I can understand that.
  249. Ge0rG dwd: right. I tend to side with jonas’ here though. While ugly, I think that establishing a sort of +1 one-liner comment on-list from competent participants would be good
  250. jonas’ it’d break my ability to participate.
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  252. dwd Ge0rG, By the way, if we had an XSF PR that garnered thousands of votes, it'd be a problem I'd love to have.
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  254. Ge0rG it appears to me that the Matrix has a very active and vocal marketing department, leading to a percetion of it being the only federated chat system out there.
  255. dwd Yes, indeed.
  256. Daniel they also had the genius and very unique idea to create bridges to other IM networks
  257. jonas’ very genious, very unique
  258. Ge0rG I'm sure we all know what we have to do. And we lack the time to.
  259. jonas’ Ge0rG, more marketing?
  260. Ge0rG > matrix-appservice-purple@conf.xmpp.matrix.org/Ge0rG: cancel: Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: closed
  261. Daniel fwiw we are going to be at froscon in august
  262. Daniel with both a booth and a talk
  263. jonas’ Ge0rG, you’re not helping the lack of time by being cryptic :)
  264. Ge0rG Daniel: we = the XSF?
  265. Daniel yes
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  268. Ge0rG Thanks for reminding me. I'll try to make an appearance as well. Are volunteers still needed?
  269. Ge0rG Maybe somebody should issue a tweet? A mention in the newsletter?
  270. Daniel probably. the booth certainly could need 'stuff'. we might have enough 'staff'. but last year or when ever that was we were sitting at what was basically an empty table
  271. Ge0rG don't we have SCAM for that?
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  273. Daniel well scam is just people
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  278. dwd Yes, but if you need Stuff, they're the people to ask.
  279. Daniel scam could certainly pay for a poster or get it printed. but someone still has to design it
  280. dwd I think Ralph and/or Guus have Stuff, for example.
  281. dwd Daniel, Again, yes, but if nobody knows that's what you need, it definitely won't happen.
  282. Daniel i mean i have a flag. i will certainly get more stickers printed
  283. dwd Daniel, I think Guus has a load of stickers he can send you.
  284. Daniel but also like a general 'this is xmpp' poster would be nice. something like that
  285. Daniel but yes. we will try to be more organized this time.
  286. Ge0rG A nice pictogram of the federated nature of XMPP?
  287. Daniel i think Ge0rG was offering his help. and this might be something he could help us with I guess
  288. dwd Pictures of doctors, soldiers, and so on. :-)
  289. Ge0rG Bonus points if the background is black with fading green hieroglyphs...
  290. Ge0rG dwd: soldiers are not PC any more
  291. Guus Daniel: let's try to create reusable designs for this, so that we can use them for other conferences too. Stuff like posters etc are very nice.
  292. dwd Ge0rG, Yes and no. People are usually impressed with the fact it's XMPP used for MEDEVAC in battlefields. Something that WHatsapp or Matrix can't claim.
  293. Daniel terrorists and nato
  294. dwd Guus, Those pop-up stands are quite cheap these days, I think.
  295. Ge0rG dwd: Matrix can claim the French government.
  296. Daniel and matrix only has the french goverment
  297. Ge0rG also they have 100bps and we have only 75bps.
  298. dwd Ge0rG, Yet XMPP can claim the French military, as well as every other NATO one.
  299. Guus dwd: payment won't be the problem, design will be.
  300. Ge0rG dwd: we can also claim Nintendo, EA and some other evildoers.
  301. Ge0rG Did I mention Google?
  302. dwd Ge0rG, Oh, yes, indeed.
  303. Guus I'm taking my kids to the swimming pool now, I'm getting anxious looks
  304. Guus But yes, let's do create more eye candy
  305. dwd Guus, Go drown them.
  306. Ge0rG I have this from CLT 2016... https://op-co.de/tmp/CLT-2016-preview.jpg
  307. Ge0rG froscon is probably a slightly different audience, should be something with the spirit of FOSS
  308. Daniel clt and froscon are pretty similiar
  309. fippo EA uses xmpp? Epic does for sure
  310. jonas’ froscon always sounds like frogs to me
  311. Ge0rG fippo: https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming ;)
  312. jonas’ maybe we should remove EVE there for a while, people are complaining that EVE wants to make the in-game chat slower ;)
  313. Ge0rG jonas’: they want _what_?
  314. jonas’ https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000106030972/eve-online-etliche-spieler-drohen-mit-kuendigung-ihres-abos-wegen I only have that, which is both cookiewalled and in german
  315. Ge0rG Daniel: I haven't been to froscon, but CLT is very user oriented, not so much targeting nerds
  316. Daniel froscon is user oriented~ish as well
  317. Daniel froscon is not fosdem
  318. Ge0rG alright
  319. Daniel maybe a little bit closer to fosdem (or ccc events) that clt
  320. Daniel but certainly not fosdem or congress
  321. Ge0rG Daniel: do you have any other marketing material that we can make use of?
  322. Daniel i have a flag. lol
  323. Ge0rG Daniel: what about a description of the booth, and what we are allowed to put there?
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  326. Daniel it's just one table. I'm not aware of any limitations regarding on what we are allowed to put there. you can’t advertise commercial services. but that's the only limitation i'm aware of
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  328. Daniel also technically i'm not the organizer of the booth. one of the dino developers is
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  331. Ge0rG Daniel: is there a MUC, or some other collaboration tool?
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  338. Daniel Ge0rG: not yet
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  475. rion > [15:40] <Ge0rG> fippo: https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming  I saw this xmpp for Fortnite. Unfortunately I can't unsee it.
  476. Ge0rG Bad people use good technology for bad things...
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  478. waqas Ha, that's a neat page. I only knew about a few of them.
  479. Ge0rG There are also significant numbers in IoT, like Google Cloud Printing. Somebody just needs to collect evidence
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  482. Zash Wasn't 0 AD using XMPP too?
  483. Ge0rG Zash: was that released yet?
  484. Zash Website says alpha, but gameplay seems fairly solid.
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  487. ralphm We were next to them at FOSDEM, right?
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  490. Zash Yes
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  493. Ge0rG So were they using xmpp?
  494. ralphm Yes
  495. Zash https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/source/lobby
  496. edhelas actually most of the project at FOSDEM are using XMPP, but we don't know yet
  497. edhelas except the Matrix guys
  498. Ge0rG Do we want them added to the list? Number of users: ~10
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  504. moparisthebest *technically* matrix's xmpp gateway uses xmpp right?
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  506. moparisthebest So matrix should go on that list of companies using XMPP
  507. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the gateway is down for months now
  508. moparisthebest The software still exists though?
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  512. waqas That's a bit of a stretch
  513. Ge0rG waqas: you are outdated. It's a bit of a buster now.
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