XSF Discussion - 2019-07-08

according to "Council Minutes" emails it seems it's hardly possible xsf will accept any significnt changes to jingle s5b. So I think what if I propose another s5b based protocol under different namespace, will it have better chances to be accepted?

unlikely

that’d probably fall under duplication

then probably I have to hurry up with sctp+dtls transport implementation while it's still "Deferred"

rion, to be clear, I don’t like this situation at all myself

I’m not sure what to do about it though

The list is often rather silent on Jingle-related issues, presumably because of its complexity. So there are a few choices: (1) council trusts the submitters of patches and allows them through, assuming that those who patch jingle are those who are most familiar with it because they implement it; (2) we replace jingle by something simpler, causing yet another rift in the ecosystem; (3) we stall jingle until we find some trusted reviewers for the patches or a similar mechanism.

currently we seem to be kind of passively ending up in situation (3)

jonas’: I've observed the same pattern with any of the more complex / less implemented xeps

More in-depth questions for example regarding pubsub seemingly hit the same wall of silance

and I find pubsub not even *that* complex

fippo had some review of my change. at least I trust him and I think others too :) According to him there is another way with different pros/cons and he implemented it in some client.

rion, until last week, I didn’t even know who "fippo" is :)

so it’s not as easy and clear cut sometimes

We should probably block a lot of those until we have more (open source) experience with them. For example once the last call for message init it out I will suggest to hold it. I'm planning an implementation for later this year and based on the fact that my implementation will only be the second one that's a good reason to gain some more experience with it imho

message init?

jingle message initiation

a non-iq flow to initiate jingle sessions

IMHO, the XSF Council should be, in theory, knowledgeable in all aspects of XMPP. However, with over 400 XEPs, this is simply not feasible. So I think that (3) is the most viable way forward, and for Jingle we should maybe have three volunteers with sufficient experience to chime in

ah. I'm going to implement it too but not sure how soon

I wonder whether we should use Last Call to find folks who are knowledgeable in the spec and not advance it unless there are any

but that of course does not help with the typical human churn in ecosystems

jonas’: isn't that literally the point of last call

Daniel, no, the last call is for feedback (in my understanding)

not for writing down the names of the poor souls who *provided* feedback as victims for future review requests :)

i mean it's almost funny. with simple xeps like http upload you got tons of bike shedding which prevents it from going through call because everyone seems to have an opinion. and the complex xeps 'nobody' understands just go through

yeah, that's rather sad.

that’s the specific definition of bike shedding, isn’t it?

the situation wasn't much different for RFC 6120...

message init has been implemented and from what i discussed with lance it was with mam enabled even

and the case that was raised on list (need to reply...) seemed unlikely unless you consider cases like hunt groups where multiple people use the same account

fippo: I'm very much interested in the interaction of message init (actually all non-directly-IM use cases of messages) with MAM and Carbons

especially under the new Carbon rules which are apparently widely ignored.

ge0rg: its a bigger topic, yeah. it was originally designed to interact well with both ("did i have a call from that person" - mam; "i took the call on the other device" - carbons)

At VEON we used dedicated messages for the latter. We called them CDRs, although I'm not sure if that was the right call (haha).

https://ralphm.net/publications/xmpp_chat_voip/#/6/4

(example below this slide)

We didn't get to submit a proper XEP on it, but I probably should.

(Ge0rG, fippo)

> I probably should This happens everywhere in the XSF, doesn't it? :)

Ge0rG: a company shutting down your project and development team tends to change one's priorities. ✏

ralphm: not trying to criticize you, it's just a general sentiment

ralphm: i never dared to call anything CDR inside a telco :-)

fippo, I called things CDRs, but only because they were.

Ge0rG, It's nice when the Council has members with direct knowledge and experience of a subject area. Where we don't, I hope people at least know someone they trust and can ask for a review. That's certainly how I work - I don't claim any serious understanding of VOIP, for example, but I'm pretty confident that fippo knows a thing or two.

fippo: haha

I read most messages by fippo and it made sense, but I didn't respond. Should I do more "I agree" messages?

dwd: that's a great way to work indeed. But maybe we can formalize that out just a little bit, with "trusted people" being loosely defined for certain topics like Jingle, and "ask for a review" happening on-list?

Ge0rG, I think if we wanted to formalize it, I'd say we should form a SIG and/or Work Team for it and formalize it that way.

ralphm, Yes. Speaking personally, a whole bunch of "I agree", and "Me too", is very useful for me to gauge consensus on things.

Silence is agreement!

Zash, It's not though. It's just silence. And if we choose to interpret silence in a particular way, it becomes quite complex to judge almost anything.

Zash, IoW, All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

especially on topics I’m not familiar with, I don’t know if silence is due to other people also not being familiar, or whether there’s truly a horde of folks who know things and simply agree in silence

s/for .*/negative parlamentarism/ ? :)

Ok, I'll speak up more.

we need simple mailing list reactions :)

`Content-Type: human/reaction; charset=utf-8`

ralphm: that'd be great

a jingle directorate? but remember, its already hard work to get people to review stuff

jonas’, I sometimes wonder if we shouldn't switch to thumbs up/thumbs down/comments on PRs as the feedback of record.

but that would be fully moving to GitHub

but only for PRs

jonas’, Move off mailing lists totally, and maybe see about integrating chatroom archive fragments into PRs.

which is kind of meh, because there’s then no single source of truth for technical discussion

jonas’, Well, PRs and issues.

I see

I’m not fond of that

I do not approve

jonas’, I'm not wild about the idea either. But I wonder whether mailing lists are really the most appropriate thing these days.

haven’t seen anything else with that fine-grained multi-device synchronising read marker support.

dwd: essentially anyone can +1 or -1 on github, and sometimes PRs go viral and get thousands of useless votes

Ge0rG, For sure.

Ge0rG, Any alternative I could suggest to mailing lists would get the same push-back, of course.

maybe github allows us to limit that to members

Ge0rG, My question is not, therefore, "Is X a perfect solution?" but "Is X better for us than mailing lists?"

one thing which mailing lists give me which nothing else has been able to so far is what I mentioned above: I can read parts of a thread, mark them as read when I not only read/looked at it, but also understood it, and have that state synchronised across my clients.

Ge0rG, And, of course, discussing such things on a mailing list are a recipe for survivorship bias of sorts.

which is vital for how I work

no web-based system has had that yet.

jonas’, Yes, I can understand that.

dwd: right. I tend to side with jonas’ here though. While ugly, I think that establishing a sort of +1 one-liner comment on-list from competent participants would be good

it’d break my ability to participate.

Ge0rG, By the way, if we had an XSF PR that garnered thousands of votes, it'd be a problem I'd love to have.

it appears to me that the Matrix has a very active and vocal marketing department, leading to a percetion of it being the only federated chat system out there.

Yes, indeed.

they also had the genius and very unique idea to create bridges to other IM networks

very genious, very unique

I'm sure we all know what we have to do. And we lack the time to.

Ge0rG, more marketing?

> matrix-appservice-purple@conf.xmpp.matrix.org/Ge0rG: cancel: Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: closed

fwiw we are going to be at froscon in august

with both a booth and a talk

Ge0rG, you’re not helping the lack of time by being cryptic :)

Daniel: we = the XSF?

yes

Thanks for reminding me. I'll try to make an appearance as well. Are volunteers still needed?

Maybe somebody should issue a tweet? A mention in the newsletter?

probably. the booth certainly could need 'stuff'. we might have enough 'staff'. but last year or when ever that was we were sitting at what was basically an empty table

don't we have SCAM for that?

well scam is just people

Yes, but if you need Stuff, they're the people to ask.

scam could certainly pay for a poster or get it printed. but someone still has to design it

I think Ralph and/or Guus have Stuff, for example.

Daniel, Again, yes, but if nobody knows that's what you need, it definitely won't happen.

i mean i have a flag. i will certainly get more stickers printed

Daniel, I think Guus has a load of stickers he can send you.

but also like a general 'this is xmpp' poster would be nice. something like that

but yes. we will try to be more organized this time.

A nice pictogram of the federated nature of XMPP?

i think Ge0rG was offering his help. and this might be something he could help us with I guess

Pictures of doctors, soldiers, and so on. :-)

Bonus points if the background is black with fading green hieroglyphs...

dwd: soldiers are not PC any more

Daniel: let's try to create reusable designs for this, so that we can use them for other conferences too. Stuff like posters etc are very nice.

Ge0rG, Yes and no. People are usually impressed with the fact it's XMPP used for MEDEVAC in battlefields. Something that WHatsapp or Matrix can't claim.

terrorists and nato

Guus, Those pop-up stands are quite cheap these days, I think.

dwd: Matrix can claim the French government.

and matrix only has the french goverment

also they have 100bps and we have only 75bps.

Ge0rG, Yet XMPP can claim the French military, as well as every other NATO one.

dwd: payment won't be the problem, design will be.

dwd: we can also claim Nintendo, EA and some other evildoers.

Did I mention Google?

Ge0rG, Oh, yes, indeed.

I'm taking my kids to the swimming pool now, I'm getting anxious looks

But yes, let's do create more eye candy

Guus, Go drown them.

I have this from CLT 2016... https://op-co.de/tmp/CLT-2016-preview.jpg

froscon is probably a slightly different audience, should be something with the spirit of FOSS

clt and froscon are pretty similiar

EA uses xmpp? Epic does for sure

froscon always sounds like frogs to me

fippo: https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming ;)

maybe we should remove EVE there for a while, people are complaining that EVE wants to make the in-game chat slower ;)

jonas’: they want _what_?

https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000106030972/eve-online-etliche-spieler-drohen-mit-kuendigung-ihres-abos-wegen I only have that, which is both cookiewalled and in german

Daniel: I haven't been to froscon, but CLT is very user oriented, not so much targeting nerds

froscon is user oriented~ish as well

froscon is not fosdem

alright

maybe a little bit closer to fosdem (or ccc events) that clt

but certainly not fosdem or congress

Daniel: do you have any other marketing material that we can make use of?

i have a flag. lol

Daniel: what about a description of the booth, and what we are allowed to put there?

it's just one table. I'm not aware of any limitations regarding on what we are allowed to put there. you can’t advertise commercial services. but that's the only limitation i'm aware of

also technically i'm not the organizer of the booth. one of the dino developers is

Daniel: is there a MUC, or some other collaboration tool?

Ge0rG: not yet

> [15:40] <Ge0rG> fippo: https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming  I saw this xmpp for Fortnite. Unfortunately I can't unsee it.

Bad people use good technology for bad things...

Ha, that's a neat page. I only knew about a few of them.

There are also significant numbers in IoT, like Google Cloud Printing. Somebody just needs to collect evidence

Wasn't 0 AD using XMPP too?

Zash: was that released yet?

Website says alpha, but gameplay seems fairly solid.

We were next to them at FOSDEM, right?

Yes

So were they using xmpp?

Yes

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/source/lobby

actually most of the project at FOSDEM are using XMPP, but we don't know yet

except the Matrix guys

Do we want them added to the list? Number of users: ~10

*technically* matrix's xmpp gateway uses xmpp right?

So matrix should go on that list of companies using XMPP

moparisthebest: the gateway is down for months now

The software still exists though?

That's a bit of a stretch

waqas: you are outdated. It's a bit of a buster now.

hi