Ge0rG> the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year
Ge0rGIt's not an explicit "nobody else may do it for you" but I still think the wording is clear
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flowso who wants to tell him that the spend those two hours in vain?
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pep.We can keep the link updates :)
flowtrue
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Ge0rGwe can kindly ask them to contact individual project maintainers and to ACK the PR
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Ge0rGthat would only take another two hours or so
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jonas’I think the consensus back then was "if someone cares enough", not necessarily involved with the project. In this case, they went through the trouble to hunt down releases and stuff, so maybe it’s worth letting them do the renew.
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Ge0rGjonas’: there are always fans caring enough about their abandoned pet project of xmpp client. This is a very slippery slope to move forward
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flowAs long as we don't have system in place where only registered e-mail/xmpp addresses of the project are able to update the entry, I would be willing to take that slippery slope
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GuusThe though behind the renewal is to have a more or less up to date listing, not to have direct engagement with individual projects. I'd not object to third party contributions, when the contributed-to project shows some relevant activity
GuusI'm fine with the required level of activity not being formally defined.
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GuusAlso: workgroup queues is indeed a popular part of the IgniteRealtime projects. I think the XEP was authored by Jive, at the time.
GuusI'd consider adopting it, if there's momentum.
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DanielIt's all problematic anyway. If I were to stop developing Conversations now it's probably still going to be a relatively decent xmpp client in a year
DanielI kinda get where this activity thing is coming from. But apparently it's not stopping Pidgin from getting listed anyway
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flowwell the goal was to hide abandoned projects and pidgin appears to be actively developed ( https://bitbucket.org/pidgin/main/commits/all )
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pep.The XMPP part of pidgin* ?
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DanielThe goal was to have a decent list of recommendations without getting too political. And activity was the seemingly objective criteria we came up with as the lowest common denominator
pep.I guess it's more or less easy for a multi-protocol client to show activity
DanielBut in reality it's a pretty flawed one
DanielAs my hypothetical example with pidgin and Conversations a year from now pointed out
ZashHaving at least one developer that remembers to do the renewal once per year*
pep.Zash, poezio just got reminded by one of its users :p
Zash!= actively developed
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pep.jonas’, one more click plz, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/591/files :)
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jonas’done
pep.o/
pep.I'm looking at Meetups listed on the events page and I'm curious about Paris, there was one in the past right?
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pep.nyco, Link Mauve, ^
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ralphmGuus: if it is actively being used, maybe that XEP should be revived?
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kockblockXMPeePee is PooPoo
kockblockOh, Daniel der Lutsch ist auch hier
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ralphmBye!
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LanceHas anyone used MUC hats to build anything? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
GuusPhysical hats, but that's not what you mean.
LanceLooking at using it for a work project to implement discord style room roles/permissions.
ralphmMostly an obscure cult, so far.
ralphmBut yes, I still think the idea is solid.
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ralphmIt was also designed with games in mind.
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lovetoxyeah looks good
lovetoxbut do i read this corectly the server adds the hat to the presence?
LanceHeh, "format is open for debate" with three possible options. But I think option 1 is the one to go with.
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LanceYeah, first step for me will be making a prosody module that strips out any hats a user tries to send themselves, and stamp the correct server-sanctioned ones
ralphmI drafted this with hildjj in the FOSDEM hackers room many moons ago.
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lovetoxyeah looks like a nice idea, easy to implement for clients
lovetoxbut mostly server work
ralphmWould be happy to be the author to revive.
lovetoxso yeah i definitly would implement that in gajim if a server has support
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LanceI'll have implementation experience to provide over the next few weeks then ralphm
lovetoxGajim also has the necessary adhoc interface for the admins
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ralphmCool.
ralphmLance: let me know when, and we'll pick it up
ralphmThere are a few, eh, sparse sections.
Lancelmao, yes. that's what prompted my asking :)
SeveLance: check converse.js
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lovetoxah i wondered what this tags are
lovetoxbut this is weird how can converse.js show this if servers dont have support for it
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pep.Lance, I think MattJ and jc were interested in hats
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wurstsalatThis was also on a sprint's agenda some time ago
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pep.Yeah it was discussed somewhat in Cambridge, I don't think anything came out of it though
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Lanceah, wonderful, gajim supports adhoc commands on rooms. that makes testing hats so much easier now
pep.Prosody doesn't support ad-hoc on rooms iirc :(
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Lance... of course not. will still give it a try, trunk might surprise me
Lancebut i at least have a module now that will strip out hats sent by occupants, and stamp the hats assigned by the server
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ZashLance: Already? Nice.
MattJI have a module that does... something
LanceZash: check the presence stanzas in the stanza discuss room :p
MattJWould have to check when I'm at my laptop
Zashpep.: It should be doable to re-use the adhoc(.lib) handling itself and adapt it to MUC.
ralphm😃🍿
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MattJI think the hardest part of hats is knowing who should be able to wear them and when, and of course that isn't in the XEP and varies across deployments
ZashThe only certainty is that the one with the most hats wins!
ZashHat Fortress 2 over XMPP! \o/
ralphmYeah, the assumption was that the rooms would have business for that. Like if you expose a chess game as a MUC room, it would know what hats are appropriate.
ralphmNot sure how easy it is to make this generic.
lovetoxi thought this is simply something the room owner decides
MattJiirc I made a generic module that could be extended for different use cases
lovetoxlike promoting someone to moderator, i can give him a hat
LanceOr in my case, with audio/video conferencing, who is allowed to stream :)
MattJlovetox: decides how/where? Where does the list of hats come from?
ZashImplementing such logic in a bot seems logical
ralphmlovetox: what I mean is that if you have a hat 'chair person', you probably want a rule that there can be only one.
ralphmCodifying rules like this generically is hard.
MattJYeah, that
lovetoxOf course you can think up all rules, but i think also just the admin thinking up some hat like "Teacher" is already fine
ralphmAnd I think such rules are business logic and application specific and should be in _this_ XEP.
lovetoxi show the label as client beside the nick
lovetoxand thats it
lovetoxeverybody knows this is the teacher :)
ZashCustom MUC modules/server-side extensions?
ralphmIf you want to expose rooms with the rule 'do whatever you want', then yeah, that's pretty easy to do.
MattJlovetox: hats are namespaced, and for a reason... you might want to allow PMs to teachers but not other students, etc.
MattJSo the label is just a part of it
ralphmThe label is the least interesting part of hats.
fippolance: so you're doing stuff we discussed in... 2015? :-)
lovetoxOk i understand you can treat hats like roles with permissions
MattJAnd if a student makes a room and assigns themselves 'Teacher', that is unacceptable in many cases :)
lovetoxbut you could also just display the label
lovetoxits already useful
Lancefippo: yes
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Lancei've kinda put a lot of things on backburner for a few years
MattJSure, just displaying the label is fine
lovetoxYes i understand you could add lots of nice features on top of that
fippolance: problems put on the backburner are much more tasty :-)
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MattJfippo: or the smoke alarm goes off
ralphmFor more generic rooms, you could start with allowing room admins to assign hats. Another would be a mechanism that allows room admins to whitelist members per hat they can assume.
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ralphmE.g. in this room, a whitelist of Directors could assume a hat that means Chair. Usually that would be me, sometimes Alex, sometimes another person in my absence.
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ZashThis sounds a lot like security labels
LanceYeah, it kinda is. Security labels for occupants, not messages
lovetoxa bit but not really
lovetoxsec labels are about messages
lovetoxthough the part who is allowed to put labels onto messages could be also a hat
ZashIn the more general sense that all the interesting logic would resid on the server side, with the protocol mostly being about presentation
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ralphmRight
LanceSo next round of iteration for this for me is probably going to be adding permissions to hats. So some way to query a hat to get back a dataform of what's allowed or not. That _might_ inform some updates for the xep
ralphmI can imagine some form of useful, but limited, hat admin protocol. If you then want more fancy, you'd do custom oob admin/logic.
LanceOr a query that returns the somehow-compiled set of what you're allowed to do, based on your current hats.
ralphmSuch basic protocol might be part of this XEP even.
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ralphmAnd we'd it clear how one might use hats in MIX, which lacks roles
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ralphmmake
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ralphmFor MUC, roles and affiliations could be grandfathered in
MattJLance: ping me tomorrow if you're around, I definitely already have stuff around this, I just don't remember how complete it was