XSF Discussion - 2019-07-17

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07:42:06 flow pep., actually a pretty popular part of openfire and smack
07:42:14 flow (and I guess spark)
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08:03:40 pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588 hmm.
08:03:55 pep. Is there something saying it must be somebody involved with the projects?
08:04:32 Ge0rG I'm saying that
08:04:55 pep. I also think it makes sense to say that
08:05:24 Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
08:05:30 Ge0rG > the XSF Board has decided that all implementations have to reapply once per year
08:05:58 Ge0rG It's not an explicit "nobody else may do it for you" but I still think the wording is clear
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08:18:44 flow so who wants to tell him that the spend those two hours in vain?
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08:19:31 pep. We can keep the link updates :)
08:20:27 flow true
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08:22:24 Ge0rG we can kindly ask them to contact individual project maintainers and to ACK the PR
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08:22:31 Ge0rG that would only take another two hours or so
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08:23:26 jonas’ I think the consensus back then was "if someone cares enough", not necessarily involved with the project. In this case, they went through the trouble to hunt down releases and stuff, so maybe it’s worth letting them do the renew.
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08:24:18 Ge0rG jonas’: there are always fans caring enough about their abandoned pet project of xmpp client. This is a very slippery slope to move forward
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08:33:11 flow As long as we don't have system in place where only registered e-mail/xmpp addresses of the project are able to update the entry, I would be willing to take that slippery slope
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08:39:28 Guus The though behind the renewal is to have a more or less up to date listing, not to have direct engagement with individual projects. I'd not object to third party contributions, when the contributed-to project shows some relevant activity
08:40:15 Guus I'm fine with the required level of activity not being formally defined.
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08:41:25 Guus Also: workgroup queues is indeed a popular part of the IgniteRealtime projects. I think the XEP was authored by Jive, at the time.
08:41:43 Guus I'd consider adopting it, if there's momentum.
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08:42:07 Daniel It's all problematic anyway. If I were to stop developing Conversations now it's probably still going to be a relatively decent xmpp client in a year
08:43:44 Daniel I kinda get where this activity thing is coming from. But apparently it's not stopping Pidgin from getting listed anyway
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08:47:50 flow well the goal was to hide abandoned projects and pidgin appears to be actively developed ( https://bitbucket.org/pidgin/main/commits/all )
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08:51:47 pep. The XMPP part of pidgin* ?
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08:52:13 Daniel The goal was to have a decent list of recommendations without getting too political. And activity was the seemingly objective criteria we came up with as the lowest common denominator
08:52:22 pep. I guess it's more or less easy for a multi-protocol client to show activity
08:52:36 Daniel But in reality it's a pretty flawed one
08:52:59 Daniel As my hypothetical example with pidgin and Conversations a year from now pointed out
08:53:01 Zash Having at least one developer that remembers to do the renewal once per year*
08:53:23 pep. Zash, poezio just got reminded by one of its users :p
08:53:29 Zash != actively developed
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08:58:52 pep. jonas’, one more click plz, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/591/files :)
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09:03:02 jonas’ done
09:03:07 pep. o/
09:04:09 pep. I'm looking at Meetups listed on the events page and I'm curious about Paris, there was one in the past right?
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09:04:15 pep. nyco, Link Mauve, ^
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09:14:42 ralphm Guus: if it is actively being used, maybe that XEP should be revived?
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17:58:10 kockblock XMPeePee is PooPoo
17:58:37 kockblock Oh, Daniel der Lutsch ist auch hier
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17:59:07 ralphm Bye!
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18:47:56 Lance Has anyone used MUC hats to build anything? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
18:48:29 Guus Physical hats, but that's not what you mean.
18:48:34 Lance Looking at using it for a work project to implement discord style room roles/permissions.
18:49:10 ralphm Mostly an obscure cult, so far.
18:49:25 ralphm But yes, I still think the idea is solid.
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18:49:57 ralphm It was also designed with games in mind.
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19:01:20 lovetox yeah looks good
19:01:38 lovetox but do i read this corectly the server adds the hat to the presence?
19:01:39 Lance Heh, "format is open for debate" with three possible options. But I think option 1 is the one to go with.
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19:02:25 Lance Yeah, first step for me will be making a prosody module that strips out any hats a user tries to send themselves, and stamp the correct server-sanctioned ones
19:02:47 ralphm I drafted this with hildjj in the FOSDEM hackers room many moons ago.
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19:02:57 lovetox yeah looks like a nice idea, easy to implement for clients
19:03:02 lovetox but mostly server work
19:03:12 ralphm Would be happy to be the author to revive.
19:03:16 lovetox so yeah i definitly would implement that in gajim if a server has support
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19:03:48 Lance I'll have implementation experience to provide over the next few weeks then ralphm
19:03:53 lovetox Gajim also has the necessary adhoc interface for the admins
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19:04:52 ralphm Cool.
19:05:21 ralphm Lance: let me know when, and we'll pick it up
19:05:56 ralphm There are a few, eh, sparse sections.
19:06:32 Lance lmao, yes. that's what prompted my asking :)
19:07:14 Seve Lance: check converse.js
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19:10:08 lovetox ah i wondered what this tags are
19:10:33 lovetox but this is weird how can converse.js show this if servers dont have support for it
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20:06:17 pep. Lance, I think MattJ and jc were interested in hats
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20:18:53 wurstsalat This was also on a sprint's agenda some time ago
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20:20:40 pep. Yeah it was discussed somewhat in Cambridge, I don't think anything came out of it though
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20:33:31 Lance ah, wonderful, gajim supports adhoc commands on rooms. that makes testing hats so much easier now
20:34:01 pep. Prosody doesn't support ad-hoc on rooms iirc :(
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20:35:39 Lance ... of course not. will still give it a try, trunk might surprise me
20:36:27 Lance but i at least have a module now that will strip out hats sent by occupants, and stamp the hats assigned by the server
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20:43:13 Zash Lance: Already? Nice.
20:44:11 MattJ I have a module that does... something
20:44:26 Lance Zash: check the presence stanzas in the stanza discuss room :p
20:44:36 MattJ Would have to check when I'm at my laptop
20:44:55 Zash pep.: It should be doable to re-use the adhoc(.lib) handling itself and adapt it to MUC.
20:45:28 ralphm 😃🍿
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20:46:12 MattJ I think the hardest part of hats is knowing who should be able to wear them and when, and of course that isn't in the XEP and varies across deployments
20:46:44 Zash The only certainty is that the one with the most hats wins!
20:47:12 Zash Hat Fortress 2 over XMPP! \o/
20:47:20 ralphm Yeah, the assumption was that the rooms would have business for that. Like if you expose a chess game as a MUC room, it would know what hats are appropriate.
20:47:53 ralphm Not sure how easy it is to make this generic.
20:48:05 lovetox i thought this is simply something the room owner decides
20:48:23 MattJ iirc I made a generic module that could be extended for different use cases
20:48:27 lovetox like promoting someone to moderator, i can give him a hat
20:48:29 Lance Or in my case, with audio/video conferencing, who is allowed to stream :)
20:48:42 MattJ lovetox: decides how/where? Where does the list of hats come from?
20:49:02 Zash Implementing such logic in a bot seems logical
20:49:06 ralphm lovetox: what I mean is that if you have a hat 'chair person', you probably want a rule that there can be only one.
20:49:23 ralphm Codifying rules like this generically is hard.
20:49:28 MattJ Yeah, that
20:50:02 lovetox Of course you can think up all rules, but i think also just the admin thinking up some hat like "Teacher" is already fine
20:50:12 ralphm And I think such rules are business logic and application specific and should be in _this_ XEP.
20:50:12 lovetox i show the label as client beside the nick
20:50:14 lovetox and thats it
20:50:21 lovetox everybody knows this is the teacher :)
20:50:36 Zash Custom MUC modules/server-side extensions?
20:51:03 ralphm If you want to expose rooms with the rule 'do whatever you want', then yeah, that's pretty easy to do.
20:51:07 MattJ lovetox: hats are namespaced, and for a reason... you might want to allow PMs to teachers but not other students, etc.
20:51:21 MattJ So the label is just a part of it
20:51:37 ralphm The label is the least interesting part of hats.
20:51:50 fippo lance: so you're doing stuff we discussed in... 2015? :-)
20:51:51 lovetox Ok i understand you can treat hats like roles with permissions
20:51:58 MattJ And if a student makes a room and assigns themselves 'Teacher', that is unacceptable in many cases :)
20:51:59 lovetox but you could also just display the label
20:52:04 lovetox its already useful
20:52:06 Lance fippo: yes
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20:52:29 Lance i've kinda put a lot of things on backburner for a few years
20:52:36 MattJ Sure, just displaying the label is fine
20:52:52 lovetox Yes i understand you could add lots of nice features on top of that
20:53:06 fippo lance: problems put on the backburner are much more tasty :-)
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20:53:56 MattJ fippo: or the smoke alarm goes off
20:54:53 ralphm For more generic rooms, you could start with allowing room admins to assign hats. Another would be a mechanism that allows room admins to whitelist members per hat they can assume.
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20:59:27 ralphm E.g. in this room, a whitelist of Directors could assume a hat that means Chair. Usually that would be me, sometimes Alex, sometimes another person in my absence.
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21:06:04 Zash This sounds a lot like security labels
21:06:43 Lance Yeah, it kinda is. Security labels for occupants, not messages
21:06:48 lovetox a bit but not really
21:06:54 lovetox sec labels are about messages
21:07:47 lovetox though the part who is allowed to put labels onto messages could be also a hat
21:07:49 Zash In the more general sense that all the interesting logic would resid on the server side, with the protocol mostly being about presentation
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21:08:33 ralphm Right
21:09:02 Lance So next round of iteration for this for me is probably going to be adding permissions to hats. So some way to query a hat to get back a dataform of what's allowed or not. That _might_ inform some updates for the xep
21:09:30 ralphm I can imagine some form of useful, but limited, hat admin protocol. If you then want more fancy, you'd do custom oob admin/logic.
21:09:31 Lance Or a query that returns the somehow-compiled set of what you're allowed to do, based on your current hats.
21:10:04 ralphm Such basic protocol might be part of this XEP even.
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21:10:44 ralphm And we'd it clear how one might use hats in MIX, which lacks roles
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21:10:58 ralphm make
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21:12:08 ralphm For MUC, roles and affiliations could be grandfathered in
21:12:38 MattJ Lance: ping me tomorrow if you're around, I definitely already have stuff around this, I just don't remember how complete it was
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21:12:48 MattJ I was planning to update the XEP
21:12:50 Lance Will do MattJ. Thanks!
21:12:54 ralphm I'll give it some sleep, too
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