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Guus
jonas’ - are you available?
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jonas’
depends on your definition of "available", Guus
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Guus
jonas’: I've got quick questions about muclumbus, but I'm feeding the offspring now
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Guus
Did my one-on-one message arrive? If so, I'll follow up on that after lunch
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jonas’
Guus, no it did not, but that’s probably because you sent it to an account on which I’m currently not available
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jonas’
an account which I generally prefer for 1:1 messages
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jonas’
is there a reason we cannot discuss this in a more public venue, like here or operators@? (I still can’t join jdev@)
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Guus
Didn't want to bother others. Will do here
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Guus
Simple question really
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Guus
Is-open, does that include public rooms that at the time of query cannot be joined because of a server policy (eg: amount of occupants is at a configured max)?
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jonas’
Guus, no, because muclumbus does not attempt to join rooms
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jonas’
it only works with the info available from disco#info
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Ge0rG
so yes, it does include those rooms
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jonas’
oh, yeah
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jonas’
I got that inverted
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jonas’
s/\bno\b/yes/
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Guus
Right. 🙂
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Guus
Tx
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jonas’
Rx
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Guus
jonas’ follow-up question. The description of the 'q' form field is: "Optional string. Operates like the search box on the website."
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Guus
... how does the website behave?
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Guus
I've now got: split value on whitespace, and split the to-be evaluated value the same way - then check if the evaluated value split contains all of the q split.
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jonas’
Guus, it’s not properly documented, as you’ve found
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jonas’
it is I think a shlex.split in python, which means that you can search for stuff including spaces by writing `"foo bar"` into the search box
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Guus
website doesn't appear to do partial text search, so the 'split on whitespace' thing made most sense.
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Guus
but might be incomplete, or plain wrong.
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jonas’
the resulting keywords are fed into SQL surrounded by `%`
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jonas’
https://search.jabbercat.org/search?q=gefl%C3%BC this shows partial match✎ -
jonas’
https://search.jabbercat.org/search?q=gefl%C3%BC this shows a partial match ✏
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Guus
oh, shoot, I missed the 3-character minimum thingy
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jonas’
that’s a deployment-specific option
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Guus
yeah, but it's why I though it was not doing partial matches
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Guus
I searched for 'te', didn't get 'test' results.
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Guus
(and didn't read the bright red warning message)
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jonas’
heh
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flow
pff warning messages, nobody reads those, c.f. compiler warnings
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Guus
all search terms are AND'ed, nor OR'ed, right?
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jonas’
Guus, yes
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Guus
q, rolling version 2 ...
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Guus
This seems to work fine. If I put this on a publicly reachable server, is there a way for you to test this, jonas’ ?
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Guus
(or anyone else, for that matter?)
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jonas’
Guus, yes, I have a test client software
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jonas’
it’s even included in the public repo I think https://github.com/horazont/muchopper/blob/master/examples/request.py
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Guus
that seems like something I can run myself
- Ge0rG is running a mirror bot that forks the pubsub data. Sometimes.
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Guus
oh, but it doesnt create/populate mucs, I think?
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jonas’
Guus, no, it doesn’t
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jonas’
it only queries the search thing
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pep.
I sent a link with poezio, and then I realized it was actually an image and some clients would display it a bit more user-friendly if I included the right tags. I sent an LMC with an OOB tag, but Conversations and dino don't display the picture anyway. Is that a bug? feature?
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pep.
The XEP says: To deal with multiple payloads, the sender MUST re-send the entire stanza, only altering id and the payloads being corrected and adding the 'replace' payload. It is expected that the receiver SHOULD then treat the new stanza as complete replacement for all the payloads received in the original stanza.
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lovetox
read this the first time
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lovetox
was that not changed a few weeks ago?
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lovetox
LMC is about body for me
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lovetox
and not all payloads
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Ge0rG
pep.: OOB is abused by Conversations and other clients for inline media, with the restriction that url must be equal to message body
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Ge0rG
not sure if you can LMC a picture into a message, though, as changing the type of message is forbidden by LMC
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lovetox
its not abused at all
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lovetox
or your definition of abused is weird
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lovetox
oob adds a url to a message, and thats what we do
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lovetox
using the xep like it was intended
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lovetox
how i display messages with a oob tag is up to the client
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lovetox
and not a concern of the xep
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Ge0rG
lovetox: the abuse is because it's essentially used for inline images / media, and because of the undocumented body=url requirement
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lovetox
how is that an abuse, to display a url added via oob inline?!
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lovetox
the XEP makes zero statements as to how a client has to display a oob url
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Ge0rG
lovetox: yes, so I could use the same syntax to append my avatar to all my messages.
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lovetox
yeah and?
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Ge0rG
it would be an equally legal use of 0066
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lovetox
people not going to chat with you long when you do that
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lovetox
not sure where the abuse is though
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lovetox
protocol wise, you abusing people with messages, yes thats clear
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Ge0rG
lovetox: only people using a client that's not adhering to XEPs will notice.
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Ge0rG
All my messages are verbal abuse, nevermind the OOB
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Ge0rG
OOB is not the right XEP for inline media, because it doesn't define how to display the URI, and because there is SIMS. Furthermore, clients only showing OOB media if url==body are enforcing an invisible specification.
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Ge0rG
It's all wrong.
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Ge0rG
It's only slightly less wrong than just HEADing every URL that's sent to you in a message body.
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lovetox
you follow the notion that you think you got to decide if my client displays something inline or not
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lovetox
there is no invisible specification
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Ge0rG
lovetox: no, only that I'm the one who has to decide _how_ I intended my message to be shown
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lovetox
you just found out implementation details of algorithm that decideds what to display inline
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lovetox
and now you think its a invisible specification for you
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lovetox
like its your job that a picture displays inline in MY client
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Ge0rG
lovetox: XEPs are about interoperability between systems. If I see an image that I send inline, I expect your client to also display it inline, maybe with the exception that you explicitly disabled inline media.
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Ge0rG
lovetox: as a client author, if I want to tell other clients to display a certain file inline, I now need to know that OOB has to be used (despite OOB not being made for inline media), and that I need to set the body to the URL, leave empty the description and send whatever text I want to accompany that image as a separate message. None of that is written down anywhere.
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lovetox
There can be an endless settings go into the decision of a client if something is displayed inline
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lovetox
you should not expect anything
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lovetox
you should provide all data necessary to display something inline
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lovetox
but thats about it
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Ge0rG
lovetox: but you can keep pretending that there is no "inline media" and that all your client does is to use some creative rules to magically embed linked image files.
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Ge0rG
> you should provide all data necessary to display something inline Yes, this is exactly what the fuss is about
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lovetox
The problem is that you want to dictate UI and behaviour on another client, on such a complex topic as displaying weblinks inline
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Ge0rG
lovetox: see, we have a fundamental disagreement on the basic assumption.
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Ge0rG
lovetox: you speak about displaying weblinks, I speak about inline media.
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lovetox
same story sorry
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Ge0rG
no, those are completely different.
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Ge0rG
lovetox: given your premise, I agree with all you said.
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lovetox
not at all, its all some file on a webserver
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Ge0rG
OOB is okay'ish for letting another client know that you reference a website or page of some sorts.
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Ge0rG
but it's not how it's used by at least Conversations.
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lovetox
So if i reference a website on facebook, the page shows inline
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lovetox
thats my messenger, so i expect your client now to display it inline
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lovetox
following your logic
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Ge0rG
lovetox: please just stop.
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Ge0rG
lovetox: as I said, we are speaking about two fundamentally different things.
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Ge0rG
lovetox: please don't try to interpret what I said in the context of linking websites.
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lovetox
I know you speak about pictures, but i already told you i dont accept your argument that this is not the same
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lovetox
both can be displayed inline, both are displayed inline in real world by clients
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Ge0rG
lovetox: yes, but the message is different.
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Ge0rG
inline media: "here is a picture that I attach to my message" website reference: "here is a random weblink with which your client may do whatever it wants"
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lovetox
so your argument is SIMS does not support weblinks
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lovetox
so there is no way to tell other clients to show it inline
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lovetox
hence you cant expect it to do it
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Ge0rG
lovetox: what?
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Ge0rG
I have never said anything about website references. I've been exclusively talking about inline media
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Ge0rG
even in my first message, I explicitly wrote that.
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lovetox
yeah so if SIMS would support sharing a website reference, and SIMS = Inline Media, then you would expect to see the website displayed inline?
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Ge0rG
lovetox: sorry, I can't follow you.
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lovetox
how do you tell a client to show a media inline?
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Ge0rG
it looks a bit like you are trying to ask me trick questions to make me issue absurd statements.
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lovetox
just by using SIMS right?
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lovetox
its not a trick question, i think i understand what you are trying to say
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lovetox
SIMS is not for website references
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Ge0rG
exactly!
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lovetox
oob does not say in the xep anything about inline
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Ge0rG
yes!
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Ge0rG
SIMS is designed for inline media only
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Ge0rG
it's a bit overengineered, but nevertheless.
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Ge0rG
so for website references, you use something else than SIMS.
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Ge0rG
you might use OOB, or just rely on the receiving client to parse the URL out of your body
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lovetox
just for the record, i dont think anybody is opposed to implement SIMS over oob
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lovetox
1. SIMS was not really a thing when this was implemented
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lovetox
2. OOB is alot less to implement for clients
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lovetox
so thats why this was chosen
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Ge0rG
Yes, but it's still abuse of OOB.
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Ge0rG
Also with OOB for inline media, you need to HEAD the URL to fetch the file type and size, before you can make any reasonable action with it or display an icon to the user
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lovetox
i still dont see where the abuse is, the oob xep even shares a picture in its example
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lovetox
so yes this XEP was clearly intended to share also links to media on the web
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Ge0rG
but not for inline media in the client. ;)
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lovetox
how you come to that conclusion is not clear to me, there is no way to indicate a inline display hint in oob, and your conclusion is : Its an abuse to show it inline
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Ge0rG
no, it's an abuse for a sender to use OOB for inline media
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Ge0rG
and for the recipient to imply that body==url --> inline media
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lovetox
if your goal is to get more clients to use SIMS, i think you will be more successuful if you hint at the benefits that SIMS has over oob, like communicating the inline wish. Instead of shouting Abuse
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Ge0rG
lovetox: do you know which clients implement SIMS?
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Zash
Communicating hashes for integrity checks, ability to use different transports, thumbnails, what else are benefits of SIMS?
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pep.
"Ge0rG> lovetox: no, only that I'm the one who has to decide _how_ I intended my message to be shown" something something 393 /me hides
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Holger
> lovetox: do you know which clients implement SIMS? Movim IIRC?
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lovetox
Ge0rG, Movim, Psi
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lovetox
maybe converse, but not sure
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Ge0rG
Zash: no need to do a HTTP HEAD
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Holger
> Communicating hashes for integrity checks, ability to use different transports, thumbnails, what else are benefits of SIMS? I think edhelas was interested in metadata such as the size to avoid HEAD requests.
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Holger
Right.
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Zash
Yeah, size and file type
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Holger
And OMEMO people don't want to reveal that data. So I guess chances for implementation might be better once there's full stanza encryption.
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Ge0rG
Speaking of OMEMO, https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/omemo-media-sharing.html combines the worst of both worlds.
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Ge0rG
> The sending entity MAY also generate a thumbnail as a JPEG data uri and include that in the same message. The aesgcm:// and the data:image/jpep, are seperated by a new line character.
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Ge0rG
Nuff' said.