fresh waves? we beat records in temperature in Paris
nyco
I'm in a Burger King... :'(
pep.
#itsnotjustparis !
Guus
same here 🙂
Guus
well, I'm not in a Burger King.
Zash
Something something makes you wish for nuclear winter.
nyco
at least I gotta milkshake
nyco
maybe not nuclear winter, but something in between, like planting trees, reduce waste...
Guus
ralphm MattJ Seve ?
Seve
I'm here :)
Seve
I was just thinking on a funny sentence, but nothing came out.
nyco
quorum
MattJ
Here
MattJ
Sorry I'm late
nyco
cool
nyco
who leads?
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Guus
our (burger) king of course!
nyco
anyway, I had just one question: should we enlarge the poll on compliance badges to Standards@ instead of restricting it to Members@ ?
Guus
I don't mind.
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Guus
is there a need to gather more feedback?
Guus
Let's do this properly.
Guusbangs a gavel
Guus
0. Role call
Guus
everyone but Ralph has made a noice
nyco
_o/
nyco
everyone but Ralph has complained about heat :)
Guus
0. Agenda
zachhas left
Guus
apart from what's on Trello, and what Nyco just said, anything else?
nyco
I'm good
Seve
Nothing here
Guus
1. Minute Taker
Guus
volunteers?
Guus
😕
Guus
2. Vote on Github contribution
Seve
I saw it, but I haven't made my mind yet, sorry.
nyco
a lot of stuff is highly obsolete
nyco
I'm all for merging, because that's done anyway
nyco
a contribution is a contribution
Guus
In short: we had someone that renewed many of the projects that are listed on our website. From what I can tell, the renewals itself are semantically correct. There was a debate wether or not we'd require _people involved_ with a project to renew them - or if we'd allow anyone to do it.
nyco
we still have no high-level, world-class XMPP app
Guus
Are we comfortable voting on this today, or does anyone want more info/time?
Ge0rG
From the floor, as the one who brought us into this mess, I'm strongly in favor of requiring somebody involved in the projects to do the renewal.
Guus
background info is linked to in the trello issue.
Ge0rG
As we don't have any other proxy info on commitment to xmpp from the developers.
nyco
maybe that rule was not our best move...
nyco
I see the intention though
Guus
I disagree - the list is on our website to facilitate finding useful things, not to pull in XMPP developers from the listed projects.
MattJ
(I'm just reviewing)
nyco
the same goes for Vysper, btw
just revived... or not
Guus
nyco I'm aware that there's a lot of gray area here.
Ge0rG
Guus: yes, and things are only useful if they are still maintained.
Guus
Ge0rG - or heavily used.
Ge0rG
Compliance Suite would be another proxy, but then most are out.
nyco
that's the art of decision making: lacking clear black and white frontiers
pep.
Guus, it would probably be smarter not to encourage using unmaintained software, hence having developers chip in
Ge0rG
Guus: unmaintained clients that are heavily used are a major burden for our ecosystem.
Guus
Also - there's no practical way for the website editors to verify that people providing a PR are sufficiently associated with the project that they're renewing
nyco
pep. I agree with that, well I agreed with that originally
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm not speaking about 100% enforcement, but about clearly communicating.
nyco
we're still neutral, or more precisely wanna be
Ge0rG
Simply asking in the PR whether the author is involved would be fine by me
Guus
I think that with what we've done with the renewal, the quality of the list has dramatically improved. I'm not sure if putting in more enforcement effort would be worth it.
Guus
Also, I think that the PR that's outstanding now, would benefit the website.
Guus
I'd hate to reject that PR, simply because its author is not associated with most of the projects there were renewed.
MattJ
I think I'm in favour of accepting it
nyco
we still need better to qualify the quality, maintenance and modernity of a piece of software
Ge0rG
Guus: can you verify that all updated projects are actually still maintained? Including their xmpp parts?
MattJ
Ge0rG, I peeked at a few random samples, and it seemed so
nyco
just some websites are still up, dunno why
Guus
Ge0rG I've run through the list, and verified that most of the renewed projects indeed had activitiy
nyco
how can we truly check?
nyco
ask for declarative info from the owners?
Guus
nyco we can't without spending much more effort than I think is wise to spend on such a list.
Ge0rG
Pidgin also had activity. Nevertheless it's stuck in 2005, xmpp-wise.
nyco
agree, exactly what I wanted to point at
nyco
Psi(+) is the same
nyco
maybe not Gajim
nyco
anyway
nyco
chair? we take a decision today?
Guus
So, we now have a list of which 20% of the items on it are debatable, against more than half, before we had this procedure. That's good enough for me, to be honest.
Ge0rG
I suppose you can just have a Board vote on this specific PR, for an exception to the maintainer rule.
nyco
or we revoke the maintener revival rule ;-)
Guus
I'd prefer to make this a vote on the rule, not on a specific PR
Guus
to prevent this from coming back again.
Ge0rG
I'm not in a position to prevent that, so do go on.
Guus
if we cannot have that vote today, then I'd like to vote on just the PR today - to ensure that the author gets feedback.
Seve
So what would it be? We remove the once per year check? Or just the acceptance of the change only if it comes from a person related to the specific project?
nyco
we keep the rule, make an exception today, reconsider the rule later?
Guus
I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
flow: it's noted in a blog item, which I suspect is taken verbatim from the then-board descision.
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Zash
I thought these rules were precisely to prevent random users from asking to revew Pidgin?
nyco
oh
Guus
Zash: no, they weren't
Guus
they were there to be able to remove unused listings.
Guus
Board, are you comfortable voting today? If not, I'm punting this to next week.
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nyco
what do we vote?
flow
Hmm it is not really explicitly spelled out in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ AFAIKT
Guus
I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
nyco
right flow
Matt
is there a place where i can make a thread about xmpp??
nyco
Guus +1
Matt
i havent been able to find a fourms
nyco
MattJ what do you mean?
Guus
Matt is a different person than MattJ.
Matt
yeah
pep.
Matt, can you wait a bit please, this chan is currently used for a board meeting
nyco
yep, just saw this
Matt
uh oh
Matt
im sorry
Guus
Matt - we're in the middle of a di...what pep said. 🙂
Guus
no worries.
Guus
Seve, MattJ?
MattJ
I'm ok voting now
Guus
Seve?
MattJ
But the vote is simply allow/disallow, right?
MattJ
I have to say I prefer the middle-ground: allow by maintainer by default, allow exceptions if necessary
MattJ
This PR is exceptional because clearly some work was put into it
Guus
MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
MattJ
Ok
flow
I would favor allowing everyone until there is a mechahism in place which only allows updates by registered (mail|xmpp) addresses FWIW
Ge0rG
so this is about who may open a PR on the website?
Guus
I'd prefer to vote on allow/disallow - to not have this keep coming back, which I think is wasteful of our time. If you disagree, feel free to correct me.
nyco
let's not make it too strict and too complex and too formal and too restrictive
pep.
flow, maybe once DOAP is democratized we could use the author list there :)
MattJ
"Should non-maintainers be allowed to renew a project listing?" is the vote then, right?
Ge0rG
once DOAP is deployed, we don't need to maintain a list. It would be auto-generated from the DOAP records.
Guus
MattJ: yes.
pep.
true
Seve
Guus, sorry, I'm just having difficulties on what to do. I would like to have a thought or two about what do we expect from the list, but anyway this will change on every board.
Seve, if we postpone the vote until next week, does that help you?
pep.
We don't have control over who commits on each client
pep.
But we could very well list them if they support X or Y. For future discussions I guess.
Seve
Guus, I'm on the side of having better quality over than quantity, but I think that's not possible right now as nyco said. I will be+1 on the vote, then.
nyco
honestly, doing a release is a very long checklist
if authors delegate that to other people, that's cool
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Guus
Ok, so, you're OK to vote, I gather from that. 🙂
Guus
For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
Ge0rG
I presume that my disagreement and its motivation has been logged.
Guus
Ge0rG if only we had a minute taker...
Guus
or: it'll be as logged as the outcome of this vote.
nyco
technically, logged, yes
nyco
http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
Guus
nyco, seve, mattj, can I have a vote for the chat log please?
nyco
+1
MattJ
-1
nyco
Guus you vote as well :)
Guus
I'm +1
MattJ
Oh wait, we agreed it still needs review/approval, right?
Ge0rG
I read that as "editors will approve renewals from non-maintainers"
nyco
> For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
MattJ
"to renew" or "to request renewal"?
Seveis waiting for clarification
MattJ
> 15:10:19 Guus> MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
MattJ
If this is the case, I don't really know what this vote is for, since we'd be reviewing individual requests anyway
Guus
Mattj, the vote is for a PR not to be automatically rejected, if the PR author is not a project member.
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Seve
But no confirmation from a project member would be required, right?
Guus
right.
MattJ
I don't want PRs automatically rejected, which way should I vote? :)
Ge0rG
required for what? What will editors do with such PRs?
Guus
Ok, let push this to next week.
MattJ
Ok :)
Ge0rG
will they be brought up to Board?
Guus
We can discuss this out of the context of this meeting
Ge0rG
or will editors just decide, somehow?
Guus
(I need to go soon)
nyco
it's 16:15 past
nyco
do we put an end to this meeting?
Guus
I motion that we, as a one time exception, accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
Guus
nyco, noted.
Guus
wait, let me rephrase that
Guus
I motion that, independent of the outcome of the pending discussion, now choose to accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
nyco
ok
MattJ
+1 to accepting PR #588
nyco
gotta go...
nyco
+1
Guus
+1
Guus
tx nyco
Seve
+1
nyco
thx all
Guus
Ok, that's a full house, motion carries.
Guus
3. AOB?
Guus
(none for me)
Seve
None here
ralphm
+1
Seve
Wow, nice ralphm
ralphm
Also hi
nyco
oh hey
Guus
hi ralph
Guus
4. Date of next
Guus
+1w
nyco
+1
ralphm
Yay
Guus
5. End
Guusbangs the gavel.
nyco
thx all
ralphm
Thanks guus
nyco
bye
Ge0rG
Btw, ChatSecure and Empathy from that PR don't look very maintained. The last actual code change to Empathy was in Sep 2017.
dwd
Ge0rG, Don't say that *now*.
pep.
Ge0rG, empathy is very much not maintained from what I understand.
Ge0rG
dwd: I'm not on Board, so it wasn't my duty to review that PR in time for the vote.
Ge0rG
which is just an excuse for me not having uncollapsed all the diff chunks
ralphm
https://github.com/GNOME/empathy
ralphm
7 days seems recent
Ge0rG
ralphm: The last *actual code change*
pep.
Collabora at least hasn't worked for ages on it. And independant devs are not pushing anything anymore. Also there's now a "new" xmpp backend for telepathy, telepathy-nonsense (empathy uses gabble)
dwd
pep., Yeah, Empathy's backend was wjjjt's, I think, and he's not worked on it in a decade or so.
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waqas
Last commit with actual release code changes was in Aug 17, 2017 (not including translation fixes)
Ge0rG
(maybe this is just another way to confirm that project maintainers should be involved in the renewal 🤷)
Guus
I wonder if much of the discussion that we're having here is caused by a difference of perspective. In my perspective, this list is "good enough" if it doesn't list a significant amount of old/crappy projects - like it did before we had the renewal process. I feel that others try to hold that list to a higher standard.
Guus
Although I'd love the list to be "better", I fear that the effort involved would skyrocket - which in my opinion isn't worth it.
Guus
That's why I'm OK to settle for what I think is "good enough" (which generally is what we have now)
Ge0rG
Guus: I know that some people in the XSF are very focused on keeping the XSF neutral, and listing some implementations while deliberately delisting others is only one small step away from violating neutrality.
Ge0rG
Which is why the periodic renewal by projects was introduced in the first place, because it is clearly not a violation of neutrality.
Ge0rG
or rather, it provides an objective way to treat all projects, while significantly improving the SNR of the list.
Ge0rG
so nobody can cry foul.
Guus
SNR?
Ge0rG
if the current Board is okay with having editors or the Board decide on non-maintainer PRs based on subjective criteria, so be it.
Ge0rG
Guus: signal to noise ratio
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Ge0rG
https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kopete-devel/ also looks more dead than alive.
Guus
Ge0rG: we could still accept _all_ PRs, without applying any criteria other than very basic ones (eg: is the listed website reachable).
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Guus
That's not ideal, but would still be an improvement over what we had before the renewal policy (as old/crappy listings will eventually go away, unless renewed)
Guus
or at least, I'd be willing to go with that, until we find that those are being structurally renewed, too.
Ge0rG
Guus: this allows gaming of the list by project affectionados.
Ge0rG
I'm still using my favorite jabber client from 2002, it needs to be on that list!
Guus
Not more than what we had before the renewal process.
Ge0rG
Guus: I think we agree that before, the situation was just bad.
matt
hey no offense to anyones emotions but why is this chat public?
matt
how do you guys combat people like coming in and start spamming
Ge0rG
matt: that's a very minor problem, and typically solved manually by the room admins
Guus
Hey Matt, unsure what you mean? We certainly didn't want to come across as rude.
matt
no im not upset
Guus
or are you not specifically meaning _this_ argument? 🙂
Guus
ah ok 🙂
Guus
well, what Ge0rG said. There are moderators here, that can remove people from the room.
matt
pretty cool to see the dev work on a project though
Ge0rG
Guus: also please let me remind you of https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
Kev
I still like the original process we agreed, FWIW (someone on the team renews it, it goes on, else not). It was simple (although obviously people can lie about affiliations) and consistent.
dwd
matt, Not even the dev work, this is all a meta-level up from there.
matt
huge fan of xmpp been using it for a year now
matt
i hope you guys can come down to nyc some time
dwd
matt, Cool. What are you using it for, and what clients/servers/etc?
Ge0rG
I think the developers of ChatSecure are located in NYC
matt
oh really?
dwd
Also yeah, it'd be lovely to get the US Summits going again somehow.
matt
would totally love a meet up
Guus
US summit would be nice to have again!
matt
i mostly use xmpp for IMs and file transfers
Ge0rG
Kev: +1
matt
im pretty vanilla
matt
but i wanna implement a new system
dwd
matt, Personal use with friends, that kind of thing?
matt
yeah
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Guus
I'm off to do more work again. Thanks for the insights, Ge0rG (others). Still not seeing it your way though 🙂
dwd
matt, Cool - that's probably our biggest use-case, but still most people use Signal/Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger/etc, so it's nice to see.
Ge0rG
Guus: whatever makes your Board work.
matt
me and my friends love it
dwd
mathieui, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
Ge0rG
Guus: but don't mind me complaining in the next pidgin renewal PR
dwd
Ooops.
matt
it brings back that old 90s AIM feel that we grew up with
dwd
matt, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
matt
I wanna add DND stats to the Vcards
Guus
Ge0rG I would send out rescuers if you'd fail to complain on that.
matt
i want to add Real life experience to xmpp
matt
like life RPG but with instant messaging
dwd
matt, Ah, you'd probably want to add extension stuff like that to PEP, I'd think.
dwd
matt, That's the mechanism that, for example, location, mood, etc all work through.
matt
hm pep
matt
is that a module?
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pep.
It's a specification
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dwd
matt, Serverside, it can be. But it's usually built in as standard on any server you're likely to use.
matt
why cant i just edit the Vcard module
Zash
We talk about standards here, not code.
dwd
matt, Well, if you did that, then no other client would be able to use what you wrote without special support.
matt
ah
Guus
Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/sever✎
dwd
matt, Whereas if you use PEP, you don't have to edit any server code at all, and any client can just add the support for the DND/RPG/etc data you add.
Guus
Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/servers ✏
matt
very cool
dwd
matt, So you'd just edit your client's code to add the new PEP node and its data. Which is less work for you, plus it gives you things like push updates etc, which vCard won't do.
matt
ok so how do i do that with form data
dwd
matt, What client are you using?
matt
gajim
Guus
From a protocol perspective, you could use any of the features that dwd mentioned as an example. This is the documentation for sharing 'location' through that mechanism, for example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0080.html
matt
and using ejabberd
Guus
(hoping that my random pick of examples was appropriate 😛 )
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dwd
matt, Gajim, you'll find, already uses PEP for location, mood, user tune, and probably some other things I've forgotten. Dig around in the code and you'll soon find it all.
matt
you guys are awesome
matt
thanks
Guus
We're here all week. Try the veal.
matt
come down to nyc
matt
and do a talk at barns and noble or something
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matt
you guys would be treated like rockstars here
pep.
They use XMPP?
Guus
We used to have a pretty strong presence west of the Atlantic, but things have shifted more to Europe in the last few years, sadly.
dwd
Guus, Well, it's great for *us*...
pep.
badum tsss
Guus
I'm happy with a EU-presence, but I wouldn't mind having a US one too. 🙂
matt
A lot of people use MQTT for production stuff
matt
like ecommerce
matt
updating qty
dwd
matt, For sure, but MQTT isn't any relation of XMPP.
matt
isnt there a module for xmpp
dwd
matt, For ejabberd, yes. As far as I know it's completely unstandardized though.
matt
ah ok
Zash
Not that far from saying "We use TCP for stuff"
matt
whats the best way to input xml data?
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matt
through a console like the one on gajim or pidgin
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Guus
Unsure what you mean? You'd rarely want regular end-users to input raw XML data.
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Guus
If you want to play around with sending raw XMPP, then those consoles are probably a good choice though.
matt
the reason why i ask is cause at some point i want to people to fill out a quiz and it will send it their xmpp accounts
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vanitasvitae
matt: i *think* you should take a look at adhoc commands maybe
matt
ok
Guus
Dataforms, perhaps?
dwd
matt, XEP-0050.
dwd
!xep50
dwdwonders if there's a bot in here these days...
vanitasvitae
Or this one? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0336.html#usecases
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matt
ok i will read this one
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lovetox
dont get how you want to use adhoc commands as quiz to random users
lovetox
what you should do is just attach a dataform with the quiz to a message
lovetox
then you go around and beg clients to implement support
lovetox
Gajim has a plugin that shows a button on messages that have a dataform
lovetox
so you can press the button the form opens you fill out the data, and press send
lovetox
actually i think this is underused, a lot of nice things you can do with that
lovetox
but i guess this is because dataform ui is not easy to implement and most client specially mobile dont have support
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Ge0rG
Yeah, you need to write a widget toolkit wrapper. Not a pleasant job.
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Zash
So, buttons?
Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html with what changes?