nycofresh waves? we beat records in temperature in Paris
nycoI'm in a Burger King... :'(
pep.#itsnotjustparis !
Guussame here 🙂
Guuswell, I'm not in a Burger King.
ZashSomething something makes you wish for nuclear winter.
nycoat least I gotta milkshake
nycomaybe not nuclear winter, but something in between, like planting trees, reduce waste...
Guusralphm MattJ Seve ?
SeveI'm here :)
SeveI was just thinking on a funny sentence, but nothing came out.
nycoquorum
MattJHere
MattJSorry I'm late
nycocool
nycowho leads?
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Guusour (burger) king of course!
nycoanyway, I had just one question: should we enlarge the poll on compliance badges to Standards@ instead of restricting it to Members@ ?
GuusI don't mind.
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Guusis there a need to gather more feedback?
GuusLet's do this properly.
Guusbangs a gavel
Guus0. Role call
Guuseveryone but Ralph has made a noice
nyco_o/
nycoeveryone but Ralph has complained about heat :)
Guus0. Agenda
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Guusapart from what's on Trello, and what Nyco just said, anything else?
nycoI'm good
SeveNothing here
Guus1. Minute Taker
Guusvolunteers?
Guus😕
Guus2. Vote on Github contribution
SeveI saw it, but I haven't made my mind yet, sorry.
nycoa lot of stuff is highly obsolete
nycoI'm all for merging, because that's done anyway
nycoa contribution is a contribution
GuusIn short: we had someone that renewed many of the projects that are listed on our website. From what I can tell, the renewals itself are semantically correct. There was a debate wether or not we'd require _people involved_ with a project to renew them - or if we'd allow anyone to do it.
nycowe still have no high-level, world-class XMPP app
GuusAre we comfortable voting on this today, or does anyone want more info/time?
Ge0rGFrom the floor, as the one who brought us into this mess, I'm strongly in favor of requiring somebody involved in the projects to do the renewal.
Guusbackground info is linked to in the trello issue.
Ge0rGAs we don't have any other proxy info on commitment to xmpp from the developers.
nycomaybe that rule was not our best move...
nycoI see the intention though
GuusI disagree - the list is on our website to facilitate finding useful things, not to pull in XMPP developers from the listed projects.
MattJ(I'm just reviewing)
nycothe same goes for Vysper, btw
just revived... or not
Guusnyco I'm aware that there's a lot of gray area here.
Ge0rGGuus: yes, and things are only useful if they are still maintained.
GuusGe0rG - or heavily used.
Ge0rGCompliance Suite would be another proxy, but then most are out.
nycothat's the art of decision making: lacking clear black and white frontiers
pep.Guus, it would probably be smarter not to encourage using unmaintained software, hence having developers chip in
Ge0rGGuus: unmaintained clients that are heavily used are a major burden for our ecosystem.
GuusAlso - there's no practical way for the website editors to verify that people providing a PR are sufficiently associated with the project that they're renewing
nycopep. I agree with that, well I agreed with that originally
Ge0rGGuus: I'm not speaking about 100% enforcement, but about clearly communicating.
nycowe're still neutral, or more precisely wanna be
Ge0rGSimply asking in the PR whether the author is involved would be fine by me
GuusI think that with what we've done with the renewal, the quality of the list has dramatically improved. I'm not sure if putting in more enforcement effort would be worth it.
GuusAlso, I think that the PR that's outstanding now, would benefit the website.
GuusI'd hate to reject that PR, simply because its author is not associated with most of the projects there were renewed.
MattJI think I'm in favour of accepting it
nycowe still need better to qualify the quality, maintenance and modernity of a piece of software
Ge0rGGuus: can you verify that all updated projects are actually still maintained? Including their xmpp parts?
MattJGe0rG, I peeked at a few random samples, and it seemed so
nycojust some websites are still up, dunno why
GuusGe0rG I've run through the list, and verified that most of the renewed projects indeed had activitiy
nycohow can we truly check?
nycoask for declarative info from the owners?
Guusnyco we can't without spending much more effort than I think is wise to spend on such a list.
Ge0rGPidgin also had activity. Nevertheless it's stuck in 2005, xmpp-wise.
nycoagree, exactly what I wanted to point at
nycoPsi(+) is the same
nycomaybe not Gajim
nycoanyway
nycochair? we take a decision today?
GuusSo, we now have a list of which 20% of the items on it are debatable, against more than half, before we had this procedure. That's good enough for me, to be honest.
Ge0rGI suppose you can just have a Board vote on this specific PR, for an exception to the maintainer rule.
nycoor we revoke the maintener revival rule ;-)
GuusI'd prefer to make this a vote on the rule, not on a specific PR
Guusto prevent this from coming back again.
Ge0rGI'm not in a position to prevent that, so do go on.
Guusif we cannot have that vote today, then I'd like to vote on just the PR today - to ensure that the author gets feedback.
SeveSo what would it be? We remove the once per year check? Or just the acceptance of the change only if it comes from a person related to the specific project?
nycowe keep the rule, make an exception today, reconsider the rule later?
GuusI propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
Guusflow: it's noted in a blog item, which I suspect is taken verbatim from the then-board descision.
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ZashI thought these rules were precisely to prevent random users from asking to revew Pidgin?
nycooh
GuusZash: no, they weren't
Guusthey were there to be able to remove unused listings.
GuusBoard, are you comfortable voting today? If not, I'm punting this to next week.
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nycowhat do we vote?
flowHmm it is not really explicitly spelled out in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ AFAIKT
GuusI propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
nycoright flow
Mattis there a place where i can make a thread about xmpp??
nycoGuus +1
Matti havent been able to find a fourms
nycoMattJ what do you mean?
GuusMatt is a different person than MattJ.
Mattyeah
pep.Matt, can you wait a bit please, this chan is currently used for a board meeting
nycoyep, just saw this
Mattuh oh
Mattim sorry
GuusMatt - we're in the middle of a di...what pep said. 🙂
Guusno worries.
GuusSeve, MattJ?
MattJI'm ok voting now
GuusSeve?
MattJBut the vote is simply allow/disallow, right?
MattJI have to say I prefer the middle-ground: allow by maintainer by default, allow exceptions if necessary
MattJThis PR is exceptional because clearly some work was put into it
GuusMattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
MattJOk
flowI would favor allowing everyone until there is a mechahism in place which only allows updates by registered (mail|xmpp) addresses FWIW
Ge0rGso this is about who may open a PR on the website?
GuusI'd prefer to vote on allow/disallow - to not have this keep coming back, which I think is wasteful of our time. If you disagree, feel free to correct me.
nycolet's not make it too strict and too complex and too formal and too restrictive
pep.flow, maybe once DOAP is democratized we could use the author list there :)
MattJ"Should non-maintainers be allowed to renew a project listing?" is the vote then, right?
Ge0rGonce DOAP is deployed, we don't need to maintain a list. It would be auto-generated from the DOAP records.
GuusMattJ: yes.
pep.true
SeveGuus, sorry, I'm just having difficulties on what to do. I would like to have a thought or two about what do we expect from the list, but anyway this will change on every board.
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Guusbut I'd first like to here from Seve
Guusbut I'd first like to heaer from Seve
pep.Ge0rG, which might not be better tbh
nycos/heaer/read/
GuusSeve, if we postpone the vote until next week, does that help you?
pep.We don't have control over who commits on each client
pep.But we could very well list them if they support X or Y. For future discussions I guess.
SeveGuus, I'm on the side of having better quality over than quantity, but I think that's not possible right now as nyco said. I will be+1 on the vote, then.
nycohonestly, doing a release is a very long checklist
if authors delegate that to other people, that's cool
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GuusOk, so, you're OK to vote, I gather from that. 🙂
GuusFor the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
Ge0rGI presume that my disagreement and its motivation has been logged.
GuusGe0rG if only we had a minute taker...
Guusor: it'll be as logged as the outcome of this vote.
nycotechnically, logged, yes
nycohttp://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
Guusnyco, seve, mattj, can I have a vote for the chat log please?
nyco+1
MattJ-1
nycoGuus you vote as well :)
GuusI'm +1
MattJOh wait, we agreed it still needs review/approval, right?
Ge0rGI read that as "editors will approve renewals from non-maintainers"
nyco> For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
MattJ"to renew" or "to request renewal"?
Seveis waiting for clarification
MattJ> 15:10:19 Guus> MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
MattJIf this is the case, I don't really know what this vote is for, since we'd be reviewing individual requests anyway
GuusMattj, the vote is for a PR not to be automatically rejected, if the PR author is not a project member.
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SeveBut no confirmation from a project member would be required, right?
Guusright.
MattJI don't want PRs automatically rejected, which way should I vote? :)
Ge0rGrequired for what? What will editors do with such PRs?
GuusOk, let push this to next week.
MattJOk :)
Ge0rGwill they be brought up to Board?
GuusWe can discuss this out of the context of this meeting
Ge0rGor will editors just decide, somehow?
Guus(I need to go soon)
nycoit's 16:15 past
nycodo we put an end to this meeting?
GuusI motion that we, as a one time exception, accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
Guusnyco, noted.
Guuswait, let me rephrase that
GuusI motion that, independent of the outcome of the pending discussion, now choose to accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
nycook
MattJ+1 to accepting PR #588
nycogotta go...
nyco+1
Guus+1
Guustx nyco
Seve+1
nycothx all
GuusOk, that's a full house, motion carries.
Guus3. AOB?
Guus(none for me)
SeveNone here
ralphm+1
SeveWow, nice ralphm
ralphmAlso hi
nycooh hey
Guushi ralph
Guus4. Date of next
Guus+1w
nyco+1
ralphmYay
Guus5. End
Guusbangs the gavel.
nycothx all
ralphmThanks guus
nycobye
Ge0rGBtw, ChatSecure and Empathy from that PR don't look very maintained. The last actual code change to Empathy was in Sep 2017.
dwdGe0rG, Don't say that *now*.
pep.Ge0rG, empathy is very much not maintained from what I understand.
Ge0rGdwd: I'm not on Board, so it wasn't my duty to review that PR in time for the vote.
Ge0rGwhich is just an excuse for me not having uncollapsed all the diff chunks
ralphmhttps://github.com/GNOME/empathy
ralphm7 days seems recent
Ge0rGralphm: The last *actual code change*
pep.Collabora at least hasn't worked for ages on it. And independant devs are not pushing anything anymore. Also there's now a "new" xmpp backend for telepathy, telepathy-nonsense (empathy uses gabble)
dwdpep., Yeah, Empathy's backend was wjjjt's, I think, and he's not worked on it in a decade or so.
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waqasLast commit with actual release code changes was in Aug 17, 2017 (not including translation fixes)
Ge0rG(maybe this is just another way to confirm that project maintainers should be involved in the renewal 🤷)
GuusI wonder if much of the discussion that we're having here is caused by a difference of perspective. In my perspective, this list is "good enough" if it doesn't list a significant amount of old/crappy projects - like it did before we had the renewal process. I feel that others try to hold that list to a higher standard.
GuusAlthough I'd love the list to be "better", I fear that the effort involved would skyrocket - which in my opinion isn't worth it.
GuusThat's why I'm OK to settle for what I think is "good enough" (which generally is what we have now)
Ge0rGGuus: I know that some people in the XSF are very focused on keeping the XSF neutral, and listing some implementations while deliberately delisting others is only one small step away from violating neutrality.
Ge0rGWhich is why the periodic renewal by projects was introduced in the first place, because it is clearly not a violation of neutrality.
Ge0rGor rather, it provides an objective way to treat all projects, while significantly improving the SNR of the list.
Ge0rGso nobody can cry foul.
GuusSNR?
Ge0rGif the current Board is okay with having editors or the Board decide on non-maintainer PRs based on subjective criteria, so be it.
Ge0rGGuus: signal to noise ratio
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Ge0rGhttps://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kopete-devel/ also looks more dead than alive.
GuusGe0rG: we could still accept _all_ PRs, without applying any criteria other than very basic ones (eg: is the listed website reachable).
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GuusThat's not ideal, but would still be an improvement over what we had before the renewal policy (as old/crappy listings will eventually go away, unless renewed)
Guusor at least, I'd be willing to go with that, until we find that those are being structurally renewed, too.
Ge0rGGuus: this allows gaming of the list by project affectionados.
Ge0rGI'm still using my favorite jabber client from 2002, it needs to be on that list!
GuusNot more than what we had before the renewal process.
Ge0rGGuus: I think we agree that before, the situation was just bad.
matthey no offense to anyones emotions but why is this chat public?
matthow do you guys combat people like coming in and start spamming
Ge0rGmatt: that's a very minor problem, and typically solved manually by the room admins
GuusHey Matt, unsure what you mean? We certainly didn't want to come across as rude.
mattno im not upset
Guusor are you not specifically meaning _this_ argument? 🙂
Guusah ok 🙂
Guuswell, what Ge0rG said. There are moderators here, that can remove people from the room.
mattpretty cool to see the dev work on a project though
Ge0rGGuus: also please let me remind you of https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
KevI still like the original process we agreed, FWIW (someone on the team renews it, it goes on, else not). It was simple (although obviously people can lie about affiliations) and consistent.
dwdmatt, Not even the dev work, this is all a meta-level up from there.
matthuge fan of xmpp been using it for a year now
matti hope you guys can come down to nyc some time
dwdmatt, Cool. What are you using it for, and what clients/servers/etc?
Ge0rGI think the developers of ChatSecure are located in NYC
mattoh really?
dwdAlso yeah, it'd be lovely to get the US Summits going again somehow.
mattwould totally love a meet up
GuusUS summit would be nice to have again!
matti mostly use xmpp for IMs and file transfers
Ge0rGKev: +1
mattim pretty vanilla
mattbut i wanna implement a new system
dwdmatt, Personal use with friends, that kind of thing?
mattyeah
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GuusI'm off to do more work again. Thanks for the insights, Ge0rG (others). Still not seeing it your way though 🙂
dwdmatt, Cool - that's probably our biggest use-case, but still most people use Signal/Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger/etc, so it's nice to see.
Ge0rGGuus: whatever makes your Board work.
mattme and my friends love it
dwdmathieui, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
Ge0rGGuus: but don't mind me complaining in the next pidgin renewal PR
dwdOoops.
mattit brings back that old 90s AIM feel that we grew up with
dwdmatt, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
mattI wanna add DND stats to the Vcards
GuusGe0rG I would send out rescuers if you'd fail to complain on that.
matti want to add Real life experience to xmpp
mattlike life RPG but with instant messaging
dwdmatt, Ah, you'd probably want to add extension stuff like that to PEP, I'd think.
dwdmatt, That's the mechanism that, for example, location, mood, etc all work through.
matthm pep
mattis that a module?
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pep.It's a specification
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dwdmatt, Serverside, it can be. But it's usually built in as standard on any server you're likely to use.
mattwhy cant i just edit the Vcard module
ZashWe talk about standards here, not code.
dwdmatt, Well, if you did that, then no other client would be able to use what you wrote without special support.
mattah
GuusMatt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/sever
dwdmatt, Whereas if you use PEP, you don't have to edit any server code at all, and any client can just add the support for the DND/RPG/etc data you add.
GuusMatt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/servers
mattvery cool
dwdmatt, So you'd just edit your client's code to add the new PEP node and its data. Which is less work for you, plus it gives you things like push updates etc, which vCard won't do.
mattok so how do i do that with form data
dwdmatt, What client are you using?
mattgajim
GuusFrom a protocol perspective, you could use any of the features that dwd mentioned as an example. This is the documentation for sharing 'location' through that mechanism, for example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0080.html
mattand using ejabberd
Guus(hoping that my random pick of examples was appropriate 😛 )
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dwdmatt, Gajim, you'll find, already uses PEP for location, mood, user tune, and probably some other things I've forgotten. Dig around in the code and you'll soon find it all.
mattyou guys are awesome
mattthanks
GuusWe're here all week. Try the veal.
mattcome down to nyc
mattand do a talk at barns and noble or something
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mattyou guys would be treated like rockstars here
pep.They use XMPP?
GuusWe used to have a pretty strong presence west of the Atlantic, but things have shifted more to Europe in the last few years, sadly.
dwdGuus, Well, it's great for *us*...
pep.badum tsss
GuusI'm happy with a EU-presence, but I wouldn't mind having a US one too. 🙂
mattA lot of people use MQTT for production stuff
mattlike ecommerce
mattupdating qty
dwdmatt, For sure, but MQTT isn't any relation of XMPP.
mattisnt there a module for xmpp
dwdmatt, For ejabberd, yes. As far as I know it's completely unstandardized though.
mattah ok
ZashNot that far from saying "We use TCP for stuff"
mattwhats the best way to input xml data?
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mattthrough a console like the one on gajim or pidgin
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GuusUnsure what you mean? You'd rarely want regular end-users to input raw XML data.
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GuusIf you want to play around with sending raw XMPP, then those consoles are probably a good choice though.
mattthe reason why i ask is cause at some point i want to people to fill out a quiz and it will send it their xmpp accounts
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vanitasvitaematt: i *think* you should take a look at adhoc commands maybe
mattok
GuusDataforms, perhaps?
dwdmatt, XEP-0050.
dwd!xep50
dwdwonders if there's a bot in here these days...
vanitasvitaeOr this one? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0336.html#usecases
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mattok i will read this one
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lovetoxdont get how you want to use adhoc commands as quiz to random users
lovetoxwhat you should do is just attach a dataform with the quiz to a message
lovetoxthen you go around and beg clients to implement support
lovetoxGajim has a plugin that shows a button on messages that have a dataform
lovetoxso you can press the button the form opens you fill out the data, and press send
lovetoxactually i think this is underused, a lot of nice things you can do with that
lovetoxbut i guess this is because dataform ui is not easy to implement and most client specially mobile dont have support
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Ge0rGYeah, you need to write a widget toolkit wrapper. Not a pleasant job.
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ZashSo, buttons?
Zashhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html with what changes?
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pep.Zash, with data forms instead?T
pep.Zash, with data forms instead?
ZashYou don't really get dataforms that simple
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Zashpep.: Like https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/HNcubzSy4lwQv7zP/xform-buttons.md ?
Zashor `<button><{form}x/></>` ?
pep.Zash, looks good to me?
pep.For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful for their UI
pep.For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful to their UI
XSF Discussion - 2019-07-25