XSF Discussion - 2019-07-25

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  119. nyco

    and... time?

  120. Guus waves

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  122. nyco

    fresh waves? we beat records in temperature in Paris

  123. nyco

    I'm in a Burger King... :'(

  124. pep.

    #itsnotjustparis !

  125. Guus

    same here 🙂

  126. Guus

    well, I'm not in a Burger King.

  127. Zash

    Something something makes you wish for nuclear winter.

  128. nyco

    at least I gotta milkshake

  129. nyco

    maybe not nuclear winter, but something in between, like planting trees, reduce waste...

  130. Guus

    ralphm MattJ Seve ?

  131. Seve

    I'm here :)

  132. Seve

    I was just thinking on a funny sentence, but nothing came out.

  133. nyco


  134. MattJ


  135. MattJ

    Sorry I'm late

  136. nyco


  137. nyco

    who leads?

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  140. Guus

    our (burger) king of course!

  141. nyco

    anyway, I had just one question: should we enlarge the poll on compliance badges to Standards@ instead of restricting it to Members@ ?

  142. Guus

    I don't mind.

  143. ralphm has left

  144. Guus

    is there a need to gather more feedback?

  145. Guus

    Let's do this properly.

  146. Guus bangs a gavel

  147. Guus

    0. Role call

  148. Guus

    everyone but Ralph has made a noice

  149. nyco


  150. nyco

    everyone but Ralph has complained about heat :)

  151. Guus

    0. Agenda

  152. zach has left

  153. Guus

    apart from what's on Trello, and what Nyco just said, anything else?

  154. nyco

    I'm good

  155. Seve

    Nothing here

  156. Guus

    1. Minute Taker

  157. Guus


  158. Guus


  159. Guus

    2. Vote on Github contribution

  160. Seve

    I saw it, but I haven't made my mind yet, sorry.

  161. nyco

    a lot of stuff is highly obsolete

  162. nyco

    I'm all for merging, because that's done anyway

  163. nyco

    a contribution is a contribution

  164. Guus

    In short: we had someone that renewed many of the projects that are listed on our website. From what I can tell, the renewals itself are semantically correct. There was a debate wether or not we'd require _people involved_ with a project to renew them - or if we'd allow anyone to do it.

  165. nyco

    we still have no high-level, world-class XMPP app

  166. Guus

    Are we comfortable voting on this today, or does anyone want more info/time?

  167. Ge0rG

    From the floor, as the one who brought us into this mess, I'm strongly in favor of requiring somebody involved in the projects to do the renewal.

  168. Guus

    background info is linked to in the trello issue.

  169. Ge0rG

    As we don't have any other proxy info on commitment to xmpp from the developers.

  170. nyco

    maybe that rule was not our best move...

  171. nyco

    I see the intention though

  172. Guus

    I disagree - the list is on our website to facilitate finding useful things, not to pull in XMPP developers from the listed projects.

  173. MattJ

    (I'm just reviewing)

  174. nyco

    the same goes for Vysper, btw just revived... or not

  175. Guus

    nyco I'm aware that there's a lot of gray area here.

  176. Ge0rG

    Guus: yes, and things are only useful if they are still maintained.

  177. Guus

    Ge0rG - or heavily used.

  178. Ge0rG

    Compliance Suite would be another proxy, but then most are out.

  179. nyco

    that's the art of decision making: lacking clear black and white frontiers

  180. pep.

    Guus, it would probably be smarter not to encourage using unmaintained software, hence having developers chip in

  181. Ge0rG

    Guus: unmaintained clients that are heavily used are a major burden for our ecosystem.

  182. Guus

    Also - there's no practical way for the website editors to verify that people providing a PR are sufficiently associated with the project that they're renewing

  183. nyco

    pep. I agree with that, well I agreed with that originally

  184. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm not speaking about 100% enforcement, but about clearly communicating.

  185. nyco

    we're still neutral, or more precisely wanna be

  186. Ge0rG

    Simply asking in the PR whether the author is involved would be fine by me

  187. Guus

    I think that with what we've done with the renewal, the quality of the list has dramatically improved. I'm not sure if putting in more enforcement effort would be worth it.

  188. Guus

    Also, I think that the PR that's outstanding now, would benefit the website.

  189. Guus

    I'd hate to reject that PR, simply because its author is not associated with most of the projects there were renewed.

  190. MattJ

    I think I'm in favour of accepting it

  191. nyco

    we still need better to qualify the quality, maintenance and modernity of a piece of software

  192. Ge0rG

    Guus: can you verify that all updated projects are actually still maintained? Including their xmpp parts?

  193. MattJ

    Ge0rG, I peeked at a few random samples, and it seemed so

  194. nyco

    just some websites are still up, dunno why

  195. Guus

    Ge0rG I've run through the list, and verified that most of the renewed projects indeed had activitiy

  196. nyco

    how can we truly check?

  197. nyco

    ask for declarative info from the owners?

  198. Guus

    nyco we can't without spending much more effort than I think is wise to spend on such a list.

  199. Ge0rG

    Pidgin also had activity. Nevertheless it's stuck in 2005, xmpp-wise.

  200. nyco

    agree, exactly what I wanted to point at

  201. nyco

    Psi(+) is the same

  202. nyco

    maybe not Gajim

  203. nyco


  204. nyco

    chair? we take a decision today?

  205. Guus

    So, we now have a list of which 20% of the items on it are debatable, against more than half, before we had this procedure. That's good enough for me, to be honest.

  206. Ge0rG

    I suppose you can just have a Board vote on this specific PR, for an exception to the maintainer rule.

  207. nyco

    or we revoke the maintener revival rule ;-)

  208. Guus

    I'd prefer to make this a vote on the rule, not on a specific PR

  209. Guus

    to prevent this from coming back again.

  210. Ge0rG

    I'm not in a position to prevent that, so do go on.

  211. Guus

    if we cannot have that vote today, then I'd like to vote on just the PR today - to ensure that the author gets feedback.

  212. Seve

    So what would it be? We remove the once per year check? Or just the acceptance of the change only if it comes from a person related to the specific project?

  213. nyco

    we keep the rule, make an exception today, reconsider the rule later?

  214. Guus

    I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.

  215. flow

    *Is* there a "maintainer rule"?

  216. nyco


  217. nyco


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  219. Matt

    hey guys

  220. Guus

    flow: it's noted in a blog item, which I suspect is taken verbatim from the then-board descision.

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  222. Zash

    I thought these rules were precisely to prevent random users from asking to revew Pidgin?

  223. nyco


  224. Guus

    Zash: no, they weren't

  225. Guus

    they were there to be able to remove unused listings.

  226. Guus

    Board, are you comfortable voting today? If not, I'm punting this to next week.

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  228. nyco

    what do we vote?

  229. flow

    Hmm it is not really explicitly spelled out in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ AFAIKT

  230. Guus

    I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.

  231. nyco

    right flow

  232. Matt

    is there a place where i can make a thread about xmpp??

  233. nyco

    Guus +1

  234. Matt

    i havent been able to find a fourms

  235. nyco

    MattJ what do you mean?

  236. Guus

    Matt is a different person than MattJ.

  237. Matt


  238. pep.

    Matt, can you wait a bit please, this chan is currently used for a board meeting

  239. nyco

    yep, just saw this

  240. Matt

    uh oh

  241. Matt

    im sorry

  242. Guus

    Matt - we're in the middle of a di...what pep said. 🙂

  243. Guus

    no worries.

  244. Guus

    Seve, MattJ?

  245. MattJ

    I'm ok voting now

  246. Guus


  247. MattJ

    But the vote is simply allow/disallow, right?

  248. MattJ

    I have to say I prefer the middle-ground: allow by maintainer by default, allow exceptions if necessary

  249. MattJ

    This PR is exceptional because clearly some work was put into it

  250. Guus

    MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.

  251. MattJ


  252. flow

    I would favor allowing everyone until there is a mechahism in place which only allows updates by registered (mail|xmpp) addresses FWIW

  253. Ge0rG

    so this is about who may open a PR on the website?

  254. Guus

    I'd prefer to vote on allow/disallow - to not have this keep coming back, which I think is wasteful of our time. If you disagree, feel free to correct me.

  255. nyco

    let's not make it too strict and too complex and too formal and too restrictive

  256. pep.

    flow, maybe once DOAP is democratized we could use the author list there :)

  257. MattJ

    "Should non-maintainers be allowed to renew a project listing?" is the vote then, right?

  258. Ge0rG

    once DOAP is deployed, we don't need to maintain a list. It would be auto-generated from the DOAP records.

  259. Guus

    MattJ: yes.

  260. pep.


  261. Seve

    Guus, sorry, I'm just having difficulties on what to do. I would like to have a thought or two about what do we expect from the list, but anyway this will change on every board.

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  263. Guus

    but I'd first like to here from Seve

  264. Guus

    but I'd first like to heaer from Seve

  265. pep.

    Ge0rG, which might not be better tbh

  266. nyco


  267. Guus

    Seve, if we postpone the vote until next week, does that help you?

  268. pep.

    We don't have control over who commits on each client

  269. pep.

    But we could very well list them if they support X or Y. For future discussions I guess.

  270. Seve

    Guus, I'm on the side of having better quality over than quantity, but I think that's not possible right now as nyco said. I will be+1 on the vote, then.

  271. nyco

    honestly, doing a release is a very long checklist if authors delegate that to other people, that's cool

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  273. Guus

    Ok, so, you're OK to vote, I gather from that. 🙂

  274. Guus

    For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.

  275. Ge0rG

    I presume that my disagreement and its motivation has been logged.

  276. Guus

    Ge0rG if only we had a minute taker...

  277. Guus

    or: it'll be as logged as the outcome of this vote.

  278. nyco

    technically, logged, yes

  279. nyco


  280. Guus

    nyco, seve, mattj, can I have a vote for the chat log please?

  281. nyco


  282. MattJ


  283. nyco

    Guus you vote as well :)

  284. Guus

    I'm +1

  285. MattJ

    Oh wait, we agreed it still needs review/approval, right?

  286. Ge0rG

    I read that as "editors will approve renewals from non-maintainers"

  287. nyco

    > For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.

  288. MattJ

    "to renew" or "to request renewal"?

  289. Seve is waiting for clarification

  290. MattJ

    > 15:10:19 Guus> MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.

  291. MattJ

    If this is the case, I don't really know what this vote is for, since we'd be reviewing individual requests anyway

  292. Guus

    Mattj, the vote is for a PR not to be automatically rejected, if the PR author is not a project member.

  293. lumi has left

  294. Seve

    But no confirmation from a project member would be required, right?

  295. Guus


  296. MattJ

    I don't want PRs automatically rejected, which way should I vote? :)

  297. Ge0rG

    required for what? What will editors do with such PRs?

  298. Guus

    Ok, let push this to next week.

  299. MattJ

    Ok :)

  300. Ge0rG

    will they be brought up to Board?

  301. Guus

    We can discuss this out of the context of this meeting

  302. Ge0rG

    or will editors just decide, somehow?

  303. Guus

    (I need to go soon)

  304. nyco

    it's 16:15 past

  305. nyco

    do we put an end to this meeting?

  306. Guus

    I motion that we, as a one time exception, accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588

  307. Guus

    nyco, noted.

  308. Guus

    wait, let me rephrase that

  309. Guus

    I motion that, independent of the outcome of the pending discussion, now choose to accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588

  310. nyco


  311. MattJ

    +1 to accepting PR #588

  312. nyco

    gotta go...

  313. nyco


  314. Guus


  315. Guus

    tx nyco

  316. Seve


  317. nyco

    thx all

  318. Guus

    Ok, that's a full house, motion carries.

  319. Guus

    3. AOB?

  320. Guus

    (none for me)

  321. Seve

    None here

  322. ralphm


  323. Seve

    Wow, nice ralphm

  324. ralphm

    Also hi

  325. nyco

    oh hey

  326. Guus

    hi ralph

  327. Guus

    4. Date of next

  328. Guus


  329. nyco


  330. ralphm


  331. Guus

    5. End

  332. Guus bangs the gavel.

  333. nyco

    thx all

  334. ralphm

    Thanks guus

  335. nyco


  336. Ge0rG

    Btw, ChatSecure and Empathy from that PR don't look very maintained. The last actual code change to Empathy was in Sep 2017.

  337. dwd

    Ge0rG, Don't say that *now*.

  338. pep.

    Ge0rG, empathy is very much not maintained from what I understand.

  339. Ge0rG

    dwd: I'm not on Board, so it wasn't my duty to review that PR in time for the vote.

  340. Ge0rG

    which is just an excuse for me not having uncollapsed all the diff chunks

  341. ralphm


  342. ralphm

    7 days seems recent

  343. Ge0rG

    ralphm: The last *actual code change*

  344. pep.

    Collabora at least hasn't worked for ages on it. And independant devs are not pushing anything anymore. Also there's now a "new" xmpp backend for telepathy, telepathy-nonsense (empathy uses gabble)

  345. dwd

    pep., Yeah, Empathy's backend was wjjjt's, I think, and he's not worked on it in a decade or so.

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  347. waqas

    Last commit with actual release code changes was in Aug 17, 2017 (not including translation fixes)

  348. Ge0rG

    (maybe this is just another way to confirm that project maintainers should be involved in the renewal 🤷)

  349. Guus

    I wonder if much of the discussion that we're having here is caused by a difference of perspective. In my perspective, this list is "good enough" if it doesn't list a significant amount of old/crappy projects - like it did before we had the renewal process. I feel that others try to hold that list to a higher standard.

  350. Guus

    Although I'd love the list to be "better", I fear that the effort involved would skyrocket - which in my opinion isn't worth it.

  351. Guus

    That's why I'm OK to settle for what I think is "good enough" (which generally is what we have now)

  352. Ge0rG

    Guus: I know that some people in the XSF are very focused on keeping the XSF neutral, and listing some implementations while deliberately delisting others is only one small step away from violating neutrality.

  353. Ge0rG

    Which is why the periodic renewal by projects was introduced in the first place, because it is clearly not a violation of neutrality.

  354. Ge0rG

    or rather, it provides an objective way to treat all projects, while significantly improving the SNR of the list.

  355. Ge0rG

    so nobody can cry foul.

  356. Guus


  357. Ge0rG

    if the current Board is okay with having editors or the Board decide on non-maintainer PRs based on subjective criteria, so be it.

  358. Ge0rG

    Guus: signal to noise ratio

  359. Matt has left

  360. Ge0rG

    https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kopete-devel/ also looks more dead than alive.

  361. Guus

    Ge0rG: we could still accept _all_ PRs, without applying any criteria other than very basic ones (eg: is the listed website reachable).

  362. matt has joined

  363. Guus

    That's not ideal, but would still be an improvement over what we had before the renewal policy (as old/crappy listings will eventually go away, unless renewed)

  364. Guus

    or at least, I'd be willing to go with that, until we find that those are being structurally renewed, too.

  365. Ge0rG

    Guus: this allows gaming of the list by project affectionados.

  366. Ge0rG

    I'm still using my favorite jabber client from 2002, it needs to be on that list!

  367. Guus

    Not more than what we had before the renewal process.

  368. Ge0rG

    Guus: I think we agree that before, the situation was just bad.

  369. matt

    hey no offense to anyones emotions but why is this chat public?

  370. matt

    how do you guys combat people like coming in and start spamming

  371. Ge0rG

    matt: that's a very minor problem, and typically solved manually by the room admins

  372. Guus

    Hey Matt, unsure what you mean? We certainly didn't want to come across as rude.

  373. matt

    no im not upset

  374. Guus

    or are you not specifically meaning _this_ argument? 🙂

  375. Guus

    ah ok 🙂

  376. Guus

    well, what Ge0rG said. There are moderators here, that can remove people from the room.

  377. matt

    pretty cool to see the dev work on a project though

  378. Ge0rG

    Guus: also please let me remind you of https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425

  379. Kev

    I still like the original process we agreed, FWIW (someone on the team renews it, it goes on, else not). It was simple (although obviously people can lie about affiliations) and consistent.

  380. dwd

    matt, Not even the dev work, this is all a meta-level up from there.

  381. matt

    huge fan of xmpp been using it for a year now

  382. matt

    i hope you guys can come down to nyc some time

  383. dwd

    matt, Cool. What are you using it for, and what clients/servers/etc?

  384. Ge0rG

    I think the developers of ChatSecure are located in NYC

  385. matt

    oh really?

  386. dwd

    Also yeah, it'd be lovely to get the US Summits going again somehow.

  387. matt

    would totally love a meet up

  388. Guus

    US summit would be nice to have again!

  389. matt

    i mostly use xmpp for IMs and file transfers

  390. Ge0rG

    Kev: +1

  391. matt

    im pretty vanilla

  392. matt

    but i wanna implement a new system

  393. dwd

    matt, Personal use with friends, that kind of thing?

  394. matt


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  396. Guus

    I'm off to do more work again. Thanks for the insights, Ge0rG (others). Still not seeing it your way though 🙂

  397. dwd

    matt, Cool - that's probably our biggest use-case, but still most people use Signal/Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger/etc, so it's nice to see.

  398. Ge0rG

    Guus: whatever makes your Board work.

  399. matt

    me and my friends love it

  400. dwd

    mathieui, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?

  401. Ge0rG

    Guus: but don't mind me complaining in the next pidgin renewal PR

  402. dwd


  403. matt

    it brings back that old 90s AIM feel that we grew up with

  404. dwd

    matt, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?

  405. matt

    I wanna add DND stats to the Vcards

  406. Guus

    Ge0rG I would send out rescuers if you'd fail to complain on that.

  407. matt

    i want to add Real life experience to xmpp

  408. matt

    like life RPG but with instant messaging

  409. dwd

    matt, Ah, you'd probably want to add extension stuff like that to PEP, I'd think.

  410. dwd

    matt, That's the mechanism that, for example, location, mood, etc all work through.

  411. matt

    hm pep

  412. matt

    is that a module?

  413. Lance has joined

  414. pep.

    It's a specification

  415. APach has joined

  416. dwd

    matt, Serverside, it can be. But it's usually built in as standard on any server you're likely to use.

  417. matt

    why cant i just edit the Vcard module

  418. Zash

    We talk about standards here, not code.

  419. dwd

    matt, Well, if you did that, then no other client would be able to use what you wrote without special support.

  420. matt


  421. Guus

    Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/sever

  422. dwd

    matt, Whereas if you use PEP, you don't have to edit any server code at all, and any client can just add the support for the DND/RPG/etc data you add.

  423. Guus

    Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/servers

  424. matt

    very cool

  425. dwd

    matt, So you'd just edit your client's code to add the new PEP node and its data. Which is less work for you, plus it gives you things like push updates etc, which vCard won't do.

  426. matt

    ok so how do i do that with form data

  427. dwd

    matt, What client are you using?

  428. matt


  429. Guus

    From a protocol perspective, you could use any of the features that dwd mentioned as an example. This is the documentation for sharing 'location' through that mechanism, for example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0080.html

  430. matt

    and using ejabberd

  431. Guus

    (hoping that my random pick of examples was appropriate 😛 )

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  434. dwd

    matt, Gajim, you'll find, already uses PEP for location, mood, user tune, and probably some other things I've forgotten. Dig around in the code and you'll soon find it all.

  435. matt

    you guys are awesome

  436. matt


  437. Guus

    We're here all week. Try the veal.

  438. matt

    come down to nyc

  439. matt

    and do a talk at barns and noble or something

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  441. matt

    you guys would be treated like rockstars here

  442. pep.

    They use XMPP?

  443. Guus

    We used to have a pretty strong presence west of the Atlantic, but things have shifted more to Europe in the last few years, sadly.

  444. dwd

    Guus, Well, it's great for *us*...

  445. pep.

    badum tsss

  446. Guus

    I'm happy with a EU-presence, but I wouldn't mind having a US one too. 🙂

  447. matt

    A lot of people use MQTT for production stuff

  448. matt

    like ecommerce

  449. matt

    updating qty

  450. dwd

    matt, For sure, but MQTT isn't any relation of XMPP.

  451. matt

    isnt there a module for xmpp

  452. dwd

    matt, For ejabberd, yes. As far as I know it's completely unstandardized though.

  453. matt

    ah ok

  454. Zash

    Not that far from saying "We use TCP for stuff"

  455. matt

    whats the best way to input xml data?

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  457. matt

    through a console like the one on gajim or pidgin

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  459. Guus

    Unsure what you mean? You'd rarely want regular end-users to input raw XML data.

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  461. Guus

    If you want to play around with sending raw XMPP, then those consoles are probably a good choice though.

  462. matt

    the reason why i ask is cause at some point i want to people to fill out a quiz and it will send it their xmpp accounts

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  464. vanitasvitae

    matt: i *think* you should take a look at adhoc commands maybe

  465. matt


  466. Guus

    Dataforms, perhaps?

  467. dwd

    matt, XEP-0050.

  468. dwd


  469. dwd wonders if there's a bot in here these days...

  470. vanitasvitae

    Or this one? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0336.html#usecases

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  472. matt

    ok i will read this one

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  562. lovetox

    dont get how you want to use adhoc commands as quiz to random users

  563. lovetox

    what you should do is just attach a dataform with the quiz to a message

  564. lovetox

    then you go around and beg clients to implement support

  565. lovetox

    Gajim has a plugin that shows a button on messages that have a dataform

  566. lovetox

    so you can press the button the form opens you fill out the data, and press send

  567. lovetox

    actually i think this is underused, a lot of nice things you can do with that

  568. lovetox

    but i guess this is because dataform ui is not easy to implement and most client specially mobile dont have support

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  574. Ge0rG

    Yeah, you need to write a widget toolkit wrapper. Not a pleasant job.

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  582. Zash

    So, buttons?

  583. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html with what changes?

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  585. pep.

    Zash, with data forms instead?T

  586. pep.

    Zash, with data forms instead?

  587. Zash

    You don't really get dataforms that simple

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  591. Zash

    pep.: Like https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/HNcubzSy4lwQv7zP/xform-buttons.md ?

  592. Zash

    or `<button><{form}x/></>` ?

  593. pep.

    Zash, looks good to me?

  594. pep.

    For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful for their UI

  595. pep.

    For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful to their UI

  596. pep.

    Maybe we'd need a FORM_TYPE value as well? :/

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  599. Zash

    pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#voiceapprove

  600. pep.

    I mean your spec, maybe it could use a FORM_TYPE

  601. Zash

    There's no specification. This is already a thing.

  602. Zash

    xform-buttons.md is meant as an informational thing that says "hey you can do this already"

  603. Zash


  604. Zash

    Maybe you could have a form that consists only of a `title`?

  605. Zash

    use that as button label

  606. Lance

    Something to put in a form field indicating "use this input to trigger form submit, instead of adding an extra Submit button"?

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  608. Zash

    `<button>` ?

  609. Lance

    i like it

  610. Zash

    Full circle?

  611. Lance

    `<field><button type="submit" /></field>`

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  613. Lance

    <button> as ui hint, type=submit as behaviour hint

  614. Zash

    Tho for the use case of just having a few auto replies, xforms is massively overkill

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  616. Lance

    with full xforms though, i can see how i can replicate everything from stuff like slack command bots, that aren't just buttons

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