XSF Discussion - 2019-07-29

  1. Guus

    Dave, I got your one on one, but my reply isn't being delivered.

  2. Ge0rG

    This is an accurate depiction of why matrix wins over XMPP.

  3. Guus

    Yes, this is bad, although I've never experienced it with anyone else than Dave

  4. Guus

    Which I suspect is running non-production code

  5. jonas’

    non-production s2s code

  6. Guus

    I'm guessing he's running s2s through Metre

  7. ralphm


  8. Ge0rG

    I've experienced asymmetric s2s with other people than Dave.

  9. ralphm

    I'm sure Matrix is bug free. Let's just quit.

  10. Ge0rG

    Yes. Or let's maybe fix the reliability issues that we are mostly ignoring for two decades now.

  11. fippo

    we did s2s interop testing... a decade ago

  12. ralphm

    I've seen various proposals being discussed, here, on list, and at summits, but there's a whole lot of whataboutism and stuff, and not a lot of just experimenting. Dave's Metre is at least an attempt to figure out all the weird corners.

  13. Ge0rG

    fippo: this is not about protocol-level interop, but about network connectivity corner cases, or connections being stuck going unnoticed

  14. Ge0rG

    Things like the periodic pinger module of some widely-used server implementation which will _ping_ the other server, but won't act in any way on a timeout.

  15. ralphm

    I'm also not talking just about s2s, but good examples are MIX and SASL2.

  16. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, there are still very few servers which support bidi, yours doesn’t for instance.

  17. Link Mauve

    It’s the first step towards no-asymetric s2s.

  18. Link Mauve

    It’s the first step towards no-assymetric s2s.

  19. Link Mauve

    It’s the first step towards no-asymmetric s2s.

  20. Link Mauve

    (Words are hard.)

  21. fippo

    ge0rg: true, we just tested the basics. and bidi is an attempt to solve some of those issues

  22. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: maybe because mod_bidi is a community module that's not enabled by default, and nobody can quite tell whether it has side-effects?

  23. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: do you have stats on how many servers have bidi enabled?

  24. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, from linkmauve.fr I see 19, out of 177+181 open s2s.

  25. Link Mauve

    I’m not sure in which direction these 19 count.

  26. Ge0rG

    so it's ~10%

  27. Ge0rG

    Maybe it's working perfectly, or maybe it's got a can of worms of its own.

  28. Link Mauve

    On JabberFR I see 27, out of 1122+1112 s2s.

  29. Ge0rG

    But now I will have another corner-case to consider when debugging s2s issues.

  30. Kev

    Getting bidi right turns out to be not as straightforward as one might think.

  31. Ge0rG

    I'm enabling mod_bidi now. Let's wait and see.

  32. Link Mauve

    Tell me when you’re done.

  33. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: done.

  34. Link Mauve

    I don’t see a bidi s2s being established.

  35. Link Mauve

    Even after closing the connection and letting it be reestablished.

  36. Ge0rG

    apparently, mod_bidi didn't get loaded on the MUC domain.

  37. Link Mauve

    Oh, that’d be the reason why.

  38. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: try again

  39. Link Mauve

    Yay, perfect. :)

  40. Link Mauve

    It also establishes much faster.

  41. Link Mauve

    About 1s vs. 4s.

  42. Ge0rG

    mod_admin_telnet won't show it as bidi, though.

  43. Ge0rG


  44. Link Mauve

    It doesn’t here either, weird.

  45. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: would you pull a number please?

  46. Link Mauve

    I was already at it. :)

  47. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: đź‘Ť

  48. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, https://issues.prosody.im/1403

  49. Ge0rG

    Yay. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646 only defines "-" as a delimiter, not "_"

  50. ralphm

    Ah, XPG vs IETF.

  51. Ge0rG

    Also Java.

  52. ralphm

    I think Java supports both.

  53. Ge0rG

    yeah, apparently what I need to call is `Locale.toLanguageTag()`

  54. pep.

    Link Mauve, Ge0rG: mod_bidi should show in the admin console? I think I added that

  55. Ge0rG

    pep.: nope. | <- linkmauve.fr [s2sin563bd6fc3640] (authenticated) (encrypted) (IPv6)

  56. Ge0rG

    at least not in 0.11

  57. pep.

    Right, If it is it will be in trunk

  58. pep.

    Who cares about releases :p

  59. Ge0rG


  60. pep.

    Though Link Mauve would be using trunk

  61. Ge0rG

    so if he can't see it, and I can't see it, it must be broken

  62. Link Mauve

    pep., maybe a too old trunk.

  63. Ge0rG

    mod_bidi Updated: 5 years ago

  64. Link Mauve

    | jabberfr.org | <- yax.im [s2sin55c473563c00] (authenticated) (encrypted) (IPv6) (bidi)

  65. Link Mauve

    That’s on JabberFR.

  66. Link Mauve

    So maybe it’s already fixed.

  67. Ge0rG

    are there two mod_bidi's?

  68. Link Mauve


  69. pep.


  70. pep.

    The fix is in the telnet console

  71. Ge0rG

    is there a telnet console in prosody-modules?

  72. Ge0rG ,oO( Hope dies last. But it dies. )

  73. pep.

    What, no

  74. pep.

    It's in core?

  75. Link Mauve

    hg is so slow on my server…

  76. Link Mauve

    Just spawning the python2 process takes like ten seconds.

  77. Link Mauve

    added 246 changesets with 270 changes to 79 files

  78. jonas’

    RIIR in 3... 2... 1...

  79. Link Mauve

    Nope, still not fixed.

  80. Link Mauve

    jonas’, I wish they’d get at it faster. :(

  81. Link Mauve


  82. jonas’

    speaking of rust, my hand mixer’s mixing things are rusty :(

  83. jonas’

    and here people wonder why I don’t like rust!!k

  84. pep.

    "Buster (Debian 10): Rust 1.28 (https://packages.debian.org/source/buster/rustc)", same for RHEL :((

  85. Link Mauve


  86. Link Mauve

    Maybe in two years they’ll be able to run today’s xmpp-rs.

  87. Zash

    What's that, being upset that it doesn't have the latest bleeding edge Rust?

  88. Zash

    It also desn't have the latest bleeding edge Go

  89. jonas’

    this is not programming@ by the way

  90. pep.

    Zash, the latest stable is 1.36 :)

  91. pep.

    jonas’, I'll stop here, I was just reacting to the above :P

  92. Link Mauve

    jonas’, oops, sorry.

  93. Link Mauve

    pep., testing suggests you display (bidi) for incoming s2s, but not for outgoing.

  94. pep.

    Put that in the issue I guess

  95. Link Mauve

    It’s already there.

  96. Ge0rG gives Link Mauve an XMPP badge

  97. Ge0rG awards Link Mauve an XMPP badge

  98. pep.

    In the meantime you're not allowed to initiate bidi, you must only accept it :P

  99. pep.

    So that it gets displayed

  100. digu


  101. ralphm


  102. jonas’

    PSA: I got my MUA fixed apparently and I’ll take care of the editor backlog tomorrow afternoon or tonight.

  103. Ge0rG


  104. edhelas

    small question regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-requestrecent, when doing a max_items requests, the order should be most recent on top ?

  105. Lance

    in the example, it is newest at end of list

  106. edhelas

    to me it's an issue

  107. edhelas

    as a client I don't want to retrieve all the node items with their payloads (for performance purposes)

  108. Lance

    i can't find any text mandating a particular result ordering. but everything is shown as always oldest to newest

  109. edhelas

    so I retrieve only the item ids, then check which items are missing and then retrieve independently the items that I need

  110. Lance

    where max_items will just give you the page of results at the very end in that sort order

  111. edhelas

    yes but this order is not specified anywhere

  112. edhelas

    ejabberd actually returns the list the other way around

  113. Lance

    ahh, then yeah. this is a gap in spec