XSF Discussion - 2019-08-02

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  18. xnamed Hi, I am new here, I would like to suggest an idea, I'm thinking about collaborative editor in XMPP for some reasons We have some stuff already in XMPP could use for it:   • XHTML-IM ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html )   • XMPP E2E Security ( https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_E2E_Security )   • Publish-Subscribe ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html )   • Bookmarks ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html )   • Multi-User Chat ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html )   • and maybe other XEPs I didn't learned yet!
 What do we need:   • Shows cursors and selections of remote users   • Show the others having joined the session and something like Chat State Notifications ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0085.html ) and Chat Markers ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html ) XEPs   • Syntax highlighting   • That's all I have for now

Maybe the idea is old or something I don't know, I'm just telling my thoughts!
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  21. Zash There's https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0284.html
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  23. xnamed well, looks good, I will try with it
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  100. lovetox pep., Ge0rG does that proposal for adding a feature under a feature break entity caps?
  101. Zash Yup. And probably the schema to.
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  105. Ge0rG I still think it's less wrong than putting all combination os sub-features into individual feature var strings.
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  107. jonas’ except that it breaks all the things
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  111. Ge0rG create a new feature tag that's recursive
  112. Zash And caps3
  113. Ge0rG caps3.11
  114. Ge0rG caps for workgroups
  115. jonas’ '390 is still experimental
  116. jonas’ so that’s the least of worries
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  119. pep. Is ecaps2 implemented at all in clients? I know it's in xmpp-parsers, and I know there's a prosody module to convert to escaps2, but that's about it?
  120. lovetox could it not be named, "pubsub:order-by" ?
  121. pep. lovetox, that's the second proposal
  122. pep. But it's ugly
  123. lovetox why though? it breaks nothing
  124. jonas’ pep., aioxmpp has an implementation, obviously
  125. lovetox and nobody looks everyday at xml streams, so i dont really care if its ugly
  126. pep. lovetox, yeah as I said in the mail
  127. pep. I was mostly curious if there were prettier alternatives
  128. pep. Or smarter ones
  129. pep. jonas’, right
  130. jonas’ XEP-0128 forms!!kk
  131. jonas’ actually...
  132. lovetox yeah that was my next bet
  133. pep. actually..
  134. lovetox you have to disco info the pubsub service itself anyway
  135. lovetox so it can announce all features inside its extended form
  136. lovetox like httpupload does
  137. lovetox with max-size etc
  138. pep. or pubsub nodes, or .. muc? :)
  139. lovetox its still bit of a hack
  140. ralphm Well, forms are for config. I think the way we would have done this is per-subprotocol features. It is a bit untortunate. Nested features would not work correctly with CAPS.
  141. pep. Then you can do disco#items on muc with order-by and rsm, imagine the possibilities!!1!
  142. jonas’ nested features would break any schema-validating parser
  143. jonas’ although I’d like to get written down somewhere that unknown elements and attributes MUST be ignored, unless they carry an attribute {urn:xmpp}critical="true" :>
  144. jonas’ in which case you have to run in circles screaming full of terror
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  146. ralphm One other possibility is querying a node that is the 'main' subprotocol namespace and adding the rsm feature on that
  147. jonas’ ralphm, but the roundtrips
  148. Zash Oh right, disco and nodes.
  149. jonas’ (and it doesn’t work with caps either)
  150. ralphm I didn't say is was pretty
  151. lovetox i would just add a field var=feature to the extended form
  152. lovetox and list all features there
  153. lovetox prettier in my opinion
  154. jonas’ ralphm, also, what if I create a pubsub node named like a feature (very common in PEP)
  155. Zash jonas’, hush
  156. ralphm Yeah
  157. Ge0rG jonas’: obviously, this must be forbidden by the protocol!
  158. Zash Wasn't there some overlaps like this already?
  159. ralphm I think for now just having a new pubsub feature and a new disco feature suffices
  160. ralphm If there only a handful of combinations, we don't have to overengineer
  161. pep. Should we also update pubsub to create pubsub#with-rsm btw? To fix the current thing that's broken
  162. pep. "broken"
  163. ralphm Yes
  164. ralphm That was my suggestion
  165. lovetox yeah pubsub has already endless feautres, just add pubsub#rsm and be done with
  166. ralphm Backwards compatible, too
  167. ralphm Old clients will see the rsm feature and will try
  168. pep. I'm curious though who mandates to add RSM in disco
  169. pep. RSM itself?
  170. ralphm Not really
  171. ralphm Rsm for disco isn't defined
  172. pep. Not that
  173. ralphm Or at least not explicitly
  174. Zash disco#items?
  175. pep. ralphm, you misunderstood
  176. pep. What says currently, "if you do rsm with pubsub, add rsm in disco#info"
  177. pep. Because I'd want to remove that when introducing pubsub#rsm
  178. ralphm Nothing?
  179. ralphm Maybe instead, if you want RSM on disco items, we need to expose a feature, and update XEP-0030
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  181. pep. update XEP-0030 !!1! /me runs wavings arms in the air
  182. pep. Am I going to get punished for daring to update a Final XEP?
  183. ralphm Or a new XEP
  184. pep. :(
  185. Zash pep., the elders will come down from the temple and whack ye upon thy fingers
  186. ralphm Zash: like who?
  187. Zash Dunno
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  194. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#support how can I, without breaking it, say "don't do it anymore" :)
  195. pep. heh, there are mentions already of the issue in this paragraph
  196. pep. Maybe that could have been sorted out at this time
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  237. xnamed few years ago jabber.ru was supporting XEP MUC-Filter which is not exist on xmpp.org and it was working very well with Isida-bot ( http://isida.dsy.name/wiki/en:Index ) and added later to other bots I have unofficial mod_muc with muc-filter support, working on ejabberd-2.1.13 and previous versions the module was not published by Ejabberd, I think it was monopolized by jabber.ru, I know many who wanted to get it but when they asked about it, the answers is like something that did not exist There is short description about the XEP here ( https://github.com/xnamed/isida4/wiki/muc-filter#principle-of-operation ) A list of bot filters that it can do here ( https://github.com/xnamed/isida4/wiki/muc-filter#configuring-the-bot ) If anyone is interested about that, if the description not enough I will send the module if necessary, I can explain it if you don't know erlang and I think it could be implemented the same way on Prosody One of the good things about this feature, users can choose filters in each room, no need to write filters for the server for everything For some time I thought there is no need for it, but there are still some kids, It was very annoying to me when one of my friends room got spammed, more than 1000 messages, then I get them all on my other devices because of XEP MAM :)
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  241. Guus xnamed: I'd be happy to add that to Openfire
  242. xnamed I'm happy to hear it Guus
  243. jonas’ I didn’t understand the documentation
  244. Guus jonas’ it's not overly clear, but the generic principle appears to be: don't broadcast stanzas that are sent to a MUC. Instead, forward it to a JID. Only if that JID gives an 'ok', broadcast the original stanza.
  245. jonas’ ah. hm.
  246. Kev So that's very similar to what we discussed at the Summit, about having an external spam-checker service that would give yay/nay verdicts on stanzas.
  247. Kev If I'm understanding correctly.
  248. Zash Who was it that made a thing for that?
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  250. Zash Or, what it called?
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  252. Zash Providence?
  253. Zash Seems to have dissapeared into a black hole.
  254. pep. The thing valerian did? (the jappix author)
  255. Zash Yes
  256. pep. https://journal.valeriansaliou.name/announcing-providence-a-spam-filter-for-xmpp/ it's disappeared though :(
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  258. xnamed at least it can be choice for who like to use it, and it is not only about spamming, censoring, option for each participant to block private messages with someone and other things
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  260. Kev Oh, it's per-occupant? I missed that bit. That's fun.
  261. jonas’ I imagine pain down that road with MUC MAM
  262. xnamed yes
  263. Kev jonas’: Yes.
  264. jonas’ a world of pain
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  267. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0004.html#final-changes we don't seem to add this kind of changelogs anymore do we?
  268. jonas’ presumably you would find those in the normal version log
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  270. pep. So I've got a diff for pubsub/rsm SHOULD-ing a new feature in disco#info of the entity. Now I'm looking at RSM and Order-by and I want to remove the "Determining Support" part, because it doesn't make sense on its own, but that would mean removing SHOULDs or MUSTs (or MUST NOT)
  271. jonas’ pep., propose the diff
  272. jonas’ council will figure out a way
  273. pep. k
  274. jonas’ IMO it should be OK to remove that (IIRC) because the information is useless to a peer anyways
  275. pep. Indeed
  276. pep. Any other XEPs one can think of that should also be amended?
  277. pep. Generic stuff? 0004?
  278. jonas’ '4 has nothing to do with RSM, does it?
  279. pep. it doesn't, but it's generic like rsm and doesn't mean much as is, does it?
  280. jonas’ it does
  281. jonas’ people do send forms directly via messages
  282. pep. Though, TIL <message> can contain <x xmlns="jabber:x:data"/>. Not clue what that means
  283. jonas’ and clients which support displaying and handling that would... exactly
  284. jonas’ ... expose that feature
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  287. pep. I was also reminded of jabber:x:search, that can use forms, rsm, etc. So we'd need to add new disco features on every single spec that can use any of these :/
  288. jonas’ yes
  289. jonas’ except if the spec requires it frmo the start
  290. pep. yeah
  291. jonas’ like muclumbus-search
  292. pep. muclumbus-search will be superseeded by disco#items+rsm+order-by at some point :P
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  294. pep. jonas’, or like MAM
  295. pep. Though everybody includes it..
  296. jonas’ pep., I miss +filter-by-name/address/description in that enumeration
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  298. Link Mauve xnamed, I once wrote https://hg.linkmauve.fr/eldonilo/barbecue/ as an implementation of XEP-0284 for the web, I don’t maintain it anymore and the library it’s build upon is dead too, but you may find some inspiration in there. It’s targetting wysiwyg more than plain text, and doesn’t have syntax highlighting or cursors/selections, but that could be added to 0284.
  299. pep. order-by and rsm are sufficient. You "just" need to add a "name"/"address"/"description" filter?
  300. pep. the @by
  301. jonas’ pep., and then a thing which returns all the info at once instead of having to disco#info each individual result returned by disco#items
  302. jonas’ pep., disco#items does not support filtering so far
  303. pep. Sure, what I just said
  304. pep. We were looking at adding order-by for disco#items with edhelas
  305. jonas’ seems reasonable
  306. pep. Maybe you want a filter-by as well, but order-by + rsm should be enough for now? (put relevant items first, ignore the rest)
  307. jonas’ and once you start with filter-by, you’ll want to write down how that filtering works, which will be its own mess. there’s a reason it’s underspecified in muclumbus at the moment
  308. jonas’ (it boils down to "whatever postgres does")
  309. pep. yeah..
  310. Zash SQL over XMPP?
  311. pep. Specifying order-by on disco#items of a MUC service is already fun :(
  312. pep. There's only 'creation' and 'modification' filters atm
  313. pep. "What does that even mean on MUC"
  314. jonas’ pep., nothing useful
  315. Zash What does it mean in PubSub?
  316. pep. Zash, that's defined in the XEP
  317. edhelas well to me 'creation' should be enough for MUC disco#items
  318. edhelas Zash please add support for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0043.html
  319. Zash How about no
  320. MattJ You're holding back XMPP from world domination
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  322. Guus Yes it's all your fault.
  323. edhelas Prosody is always holding back XMPP, look at ejabberd, they supports 0043 for years
  324. xnamed Link Mauve, I will see
  325. Guus Does SQL-Injection count, btw?
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  327. xnamed just added the module on Github, mod_muc ( https://github.com/xnamed/mod_muc )
Guus, Kev,
  328. Zash So in conclusion, I killed XMPP. Finally the world is ready for my real evil plan, ZMPP!
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  331. Guus (how do you pronounce that?)
  332. Zash No talk, only chat!
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  338. jonas’ > Retracted edhelas, are you serious?
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  345. edhelas It's 100% real news, I heard it on FoxNews
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  348. xnamed Zash, what about XNPP?
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  351. xnamed Link Mauve, I found a collaborative editor project on github written in C++ so I think it possible to get some information from it, but we will not implement XEP-0284 on the client as long as it's deferred
  352. Link Mauve xnamed, it won’t go back to experimental without feedback from implementors.
  353. xnamed ok
  354. Link Mauve “09:31:46 pep.> Am I going to get punished for daring to update a Final XEP?”, XEP-0030 already got updated in a very incompatible way in the weirdly-named 2.5rc3 version.
  355. Link Mauve A valid parser from rc2 and before could choke on disco#info produced by rc3.
  356. Link Mauve The one in xmpp-parsers had to be updated to remove the explicit ordering restriction.
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  358. pep. So maybe we could update disco and caps at the same time and break the world :)
  359. Link Mauve Please don’t.
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  363. Link Mauve xnamed, which project is that, btw?
  364. xnamed Link Mauve, https://github.com/gobby/gobby
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  366. Link Mauve Ah, I know this one, but it’s using a totally different protocol atm.
  367. xnamed yes I know
  368. xnamed but same idea
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  391. xnamed who are the the XEP-0284: Shared XML Editing authors here?   • Joonas Govenius    • Peter Saint-Andre    • Tom Pusateri
 so we could discuss it with them first
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  393. pep. xnamed, peter is on this chan often enough. I suggest you ask your questions on the standards mailing list though
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  395. xnamed thanks pep.
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  435. jonas’ does anyone know what `tc` is, as an XMPP server-side software/component?
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  441. peter I always kind of liked Shared XML Editing but I suppose it was too complex.
  442. Link Mauve I quite liked implementing it.
  443. Link Mauve Damn, that was in 2012.
  444. xnamed we will not focus on it immediately, it was an idea I did not think the XEP was existed
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  447. xnamed What about OMEMO support in groupchat as gajim-plugin ( https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/wikis/omemogajimplugin#groupchat ) and Conversations?
Groupchat with OMEMO encryption works only in rooms that are:   • non-anonymous   • members-only   • works only with contacts that you have in your roster
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  468. sonny Link Mauve, remember https://github.com/fabi1cazenave/sxedit 😀 ?
  469. pep. https://github.com/fabi1cazenave/sxedit/commit/a99facfa291f22d32ae893a4ca505a7a7027270a "Fait tomber en marche.", Some part of France is currently at it :-°
  470. sonny crap, where is my right to be forgotten when I need it
  471. pep. haha
  472. sonny IIRC SXE/sxedit worked really well and editing nodes instead of characters made collaboration much easier as we would "lock" the nodes that were being edited
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  511. Link Mauve sonny, yup. ^^
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  568. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#forwards, I'm not sure I understand the following: Responding entity support for paging through a result set is optional. If it does support paging (not just Limiting the Number of Items), then in each page it returns, the responding entity MUST include <first/> and <last/> elements that specify the unique ID (UID) for the first and last items in the page. If there is only one item in the page, then the first and last UIDs MUST be the same. If there are no items in the page, then the <first/> and <last/> elements MUST NOT be included.
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  571. pep. "paging" only means a subset of RSM right?
  572. pep. hmm, I guess I'll come back to that once I've read <first/> and <last/>
  573. Ge0rG I wonder what good RSM is for if you take away pagination.
  574. pep. I'm also curious
  575. pep. Maybe you can just get the first N items and be happy with that
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  577. Ge0rG Like in matrix
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  582. Zash pep.: wat
  583. Zash Oh, I thought I saw a "NOT" in "the first and last UIDs MUST be the same"
  584. pep. Also I am definitely not sure how to picture this: No items will be omitted from pages not yet sent (even if, after earlier pages were sent, some of the items they contained were removed from the set).
  585. pep. 2.2, the paging features
  586. pep. Does that mean when the server gets a request, it should store a reference of all items contained in the set, and page through that and not what's actually happening?
  587. pep. It can't store items directly because of the first condition: "Each page of the result set is up-to-date at the time it is sent (not just at the time the first page was sent)."
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  590. Ge0rG Maybe we need to define a message DAG that can be linearly paged.
  591. Zash Linked list?
  592. pep. DAG? What would you branch for?
  593. pep. "The responding entity maintains no state" lol, that's a feature of that paging protocol
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  595. pep. Doesn't that directly contradict the second rule
  596. pep. Maybe that's why these guarantees are MAY, so that responding entities can pick what they like in there
  597. xnamed I added explanation ( https://github.com/xnamed/mod_muc/blob/master/README.md ) about muc-filter very close to the implementation in the ejabberd module I hope that my English is enough or at least to make it easier to you, I had no other way to explain it
  598. Zash pep.: It would likely need to be taken in context of whatever it's used with, eg MAM
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  600. pep. Ok I understand now my first question on rsm
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