XSF Discussion - 2019-08-06

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  73. marc_ Ge0rG: sure, but I don't think it is good to write the XEP without implementing at the same time
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  75. Ge0rG marc_: yes, and it's had to motivate people to implement a XEP full of TODOs
  76. marc_ Ge0rG: it's also hard to motivate somebody to write a XEP if no client will implement it *this* way ;)
  77. marc_ Ge0rG: solution: talk to client devs and agree on some user stories, UI and UX
  78. Ge0rG marc_: I'm a client dev. I know how I'd implement the code, the UI and the UX
  79. Ge0rG marc_: I need somebody from the prosody team to stand up and to hack the server side support.
  80. marc_ Ge0rG: there are other clients as well ;)
  81. Ge0rG marc_: this is a lie.
  82. Ge0rG I mean, yes, there are other clients. But so far I haven't found one where the developer is interested in good onboarding UX and has the time to tackle it.
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  85. Ge0rG The only maybe-exception is Quicksy, which is sacrifices the most important selling point of xmpp
  86. jonas’ Ge0rG, or you hack the server side support yourself
  87. jonas’ or find someone non-prosody-team to do it
  88. jonas’ prosody is quite hackable in my experience
  89. Ge0rG jonas’: I read that as "I volunteer" from you
  90. jonas’ you can certainly do that, but I’d question whether that’s correct
  91. jonas’ or rather, I would actually volunteer, but there’s no way I can make any deadline commitments
  92. marc_ Ge0rG: onboarding is only important if the UX is good afterwards ;)
  93. Ge0rG jonas’: see, and this is why there hasn't been any progress for a year now
  94. Ge0rG jonas’: I'm not picky about the who, but somebody needs to stand up
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  96. jonas’ Ge0rG, please avoid passing judgement on my time scheduling
  97. jonas’ (or anyones really)
  98. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’m not saying "I can’t give you any deadlines" because it’s not important to me or because I want to annoy you or I want to stop progress. I’m saying that because it’s the only realistic thing I can say as things stand right now.
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  101. Ge0rG jonas’: I'm not criticizing you at all.
  102. jonas’ maybe I’m overly sensitive about that right now, that’s surely possible. sorry
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  104. Ge0rG jonas’: :)
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  106. marc_ Ge0rG: try to discuss this topic on froscon, please
  107. Ge0rG marc_: this is a topic for mobile devs. I'm not sure whether dino qualifies ;)
  108. jonas’ not only mobile devs IMO
  109. marc_ > not only mobile devs IMO +4
  110. Ge0rG And the developer of the well-known and widely popular android client seems to disagree with me in most UX questions.
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  112. Ge0rG marc_: desktop clients already fail at taking xmpp: URIs. How are you supposed to make them scan a QR code?
  113. marc_ > And the developer of the well-known and widely popular android client seems to disagree with me in most UX questions. Maybe not in this case... just try it. We don't need another XEP only half of the clients implement
  114. marc_ This makes UX even worse...
  115. marc_ > marc_: desktop clients already fail at taking xmpp: URIs. How are you supposed to make them scan a QR code? Can be fixed?
  116. Ge0rG marc_: requires motivation.
  117. Zash There has to be room for experimentation and all clients don't need to be identical.
  118. Ge0rG Zash: are you going to implement the server side of 401 for me?
  119. Ge0rG but please not in a quirky hacky way but as a proper module.
  120. Zash I can't promise anything right now
  121. marc_ > There has to be room for experimentation and all clients don't need to be identical. Yep
  122. Ge0rG marc_: scanning a QR code requires a camera.
  123. marc_ Ge0rG: displaying QR codes not ;)
  124. marc_ I demonstrated a modified Gajim Version a year ago? 🤔
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  126. Ge0rG marc_: http://asciiqr.com/index.php?i=&t=https%3A%2F%2Fyax.im%2Fi%2F%23georg%40yax.im
  127. Ge0rG █▀▀▀▀▀█ ▀ ▄█▄▄▄ ▄ █▀▀▀▀▀█ █ ███ █ █▄ ▄▄██▀ █ ███ █ █ ▀▀▀ █ ▀█ ▀ █▀ █ ▀▀▀ █ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▄▀ █ ▀ ▀ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██▀▀▄ ▀ ▀▄ █▄ ▀▀█▀ ▄▀▀▀▄▀ ▀█▄▄▀█▀█▀ ▀ ▄▄▄▀█ ██▄▄ ▀█▄▄▄▀▀▄▀█▄▀▄██▄ ▀███ ▀▀█ ▄▀▄█ ▄▀▀█▀ █ █▄▄ █▄█ ▀▀▄ ▀▀ ▀▀▀▄▄▀█▄█▄▀█▀▀▀█▀█▀█ █▀▀▀▀▀█ ▄ ▄ ▀▄▄█ ▀ █ ▀██ █ ███ █ ▄ █▀ ▀ ▀▀█▀██▄██ █ ▀▀▀ █ █ █▀ █▄ ▀██ █ █▀ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀ ▀ ▀ ▀▀▀▀▀▀
  128. Ge0rG (which doesn't work if your terminal is white-on-black)
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  130. Zash Or a non-fixed-width font
  131. marc_ What's your point? You need to generate a token for 401...
  132. Ge0rG Zash: s/or/and/
  133. Ge0rG oh, wait. triple negation.
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  135. Ge0rG marc_: my point is that most desktop developers are having other problems than easy onboarding UX
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  137. marc_ But they may have valuable input...
  138. Ge0rG marc_: right. Developers _always_ have valuable input on UX topic. This is why most XMPP clients are well-polished and usable.
  139. Zash What was the QR code for?
  140. Ge0rG Zash: don't you have a faux android phone?
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  142. marc_ Ge0rG: just be a bit more constructive and think more as community ;)
  143. Zash Ge0rG: I just woke up and sat trough a meeting without getting coffee first, so excuse my cold context cache for this topic
  144. Zash What was communicated via QR? URL? Show the URL on the screen so it can be typed?
  145. Zash Tho it's no fun to type a long hexadecimal or base64 code 😕
  146. Ge0rG Zash: http upload a picture of the QR code.
  147. Ge0rG Conversations can do that.
  148. Zash HTTP upload to a fax service?
  149. Ge0rG marc_: pardon me my sarcasm, but in the last years I have tried to ignite a better appreciation for UX in the xmpp developers, and there was no significant contribution. 0379 is a prime example, and 0401 isn't even there yet.
  150. Ge0rG Zash: how much FEC do you need to survive faxing?
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  153. Ge0rG ,oO( fox 'em! )
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  155. Zash Did PARS require more than saving the complete original presence subscription request?
  156. marc_ Ge0rG: I understand but my time is limited and I would like to progress as community with this XEP
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  158. Ge0rG Zash: from the server? no
  159. Ge0rG marc_: then please invent a mechansim to force the community to participate. If you pull that off, I'd like to make use of it as well, for a number of other important topics
  160. Ge0rG marc_: or you have to take the community members that are actually interested on their own, i.e. me
  161. Ge0rG marc_: you could also write a mail to standards@ or jdev@, asking client developers for feedback on the UX side of things
  162. Ge0rG we will figure out the protocol, it's the easy part.
  163. Zash The best way is probably to make a thing and show it. Takes some time and energy tho.
  164. Ge0rG Zash: I can make the client side in yaxim, but 0401 needs server support
  165. Ge0rG I've been asking for help for a year now, or maybe two.
  166. Zash But there's always a million things to do and only so much time and energy per day
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  170. pep. “Ge0rG: then please invent a mechansim to force the community to participate. If you pull that off, I'd like to make use of it as well, for a number of other important topics”, /me thinks about all the free labor he gets during sprints :-°
  171. Ge0rG pep.: how many mobile client sprints have there been so far?
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  174. jonas’ one of my next ToDo steps is to make a writeup of the unwritten rules of extensibility in XMPP, since I get the feeling that there are different opinions on that and having a written down thing which is ratified by council would be good
  175. jonas’ I’m thinking along the lines of stuff like "is it allowed to put arbitrary (separately namespaced) elements in arbitrary places of existing protocols (provided you don’t do mixed content, which is always bad)?"
  176. Ge0rG except into features ;)
  177. jonas’ those rules would then find their way into validating parsers which then need to deal with that type of stuff
  178. jonas’ there would be rules on how to deal with unknown content based on whether you’re the recipient (@to) of the stanza or not
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  180. Zash jonas’ Amend https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html and/or https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html (maybe others)?
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  188. jonas’ '134 maybe
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  190. jonas’ '143 is probably not read by folks who write parsers
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  197. pep. "Ge0rG> pep.: how many mobile client sprints have there been so far?", so far I don't think there's been anything particularly centered on mobile, but you're welcome to propose something :)
  198. pep. "jonas’> [..] I get the feeling that there are different opinions on [rules of extensibility in XMPP]", I agree
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  226. flow I don't
  227. flow Cause I believe it is simply: It's ok to extend, if you can live with the entities not understanding the extension, but there are exceptions like xep30's feature
  228. Kev Well, the extension has to be in a different namespace, you can't shove things into existing namespaces (without negotiation).
  229. flow I am even not sure if this is true, but you usually want a different namespace
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  264. marc_ Ge0rG: i'm not even subscribed to these lists ;)
  265. Ge0rG marc_: to be honest, I'd like to move 0401 into a state where it has a reasonable chance to become part of Compliance Suite 2020
  266. pep. Where was that Logitech/XMPP/home automation again? And what happened to that?
  267. marc_ Ge0rG: let's work on it then :)
  268. pep. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/12/logitech-firmware-update-breaks-locally-controlled-harmony-hub-systems/ found it
  269. Ge0rG marc_: yes. This is why I pinged you.
  270. Ge0rG marc_: do you want to further improve the XEP? Or are you looking for feedback from client developers?
  271. Ge0rG In the latter case, please open a thread on the standards@ ML
  272. marc_ Ge0rG: can you open it, please? I don't have time to work on it until end of August
  273. marc_ Would be nice to get some feedback in the meantime
  274. Ge0rG marc_: I don't know what you want to get feedback on. I have a very clear vision of what to do and how to do it.
  275. marc_ Ge0rG: post it on @standards and ask for feedback then
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  279. pep. The "ask for feedback on standards@" thing doesn't really work either tbh :/
  280. pep. Sometimes it spawns a discussion here if you're lucky
  281. marc_ If you got my idea of somehow spilt adding contacts with server side pars and server invitation you can propose this as well
  282. pep. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-August/036341.html for this example this. Or this https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-August/036338.html (this we talked about it here afterwards..)
  283. Ge0rG marc_: I'm not sure where and why you want to split things
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  286. marc_ Ge0rG: that's why I hate discussing these things via chat ;)
  287. marc_ It's much easier to do this in RL
  288. Ge0rG marc_: I'm not so sure
  289. Ge0rG still hopes that origin-id will just go away.
  290. pep. "just" go away, and that @id magically gets fixed?
  291. Ge0rG pep.: exactly
  292. Ge0rG how many IDs does a message really need?
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  295. pep. From what I understand you need origin-id because you don't have the same guarantees with @id. And as much as I don't like legacy, that will always be a thing, and I even if we said "@id now means XXXX", you wouldn't know if what you receive actually is what you expect. At least with origin-id you "know", otherwise it just wouldn't be there
  296. marc_ Ge0rG: have you been on a sprint so far?
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  299. pep. (There will be incorrect implementations, but that's another issue)
  300. Ge0rG marc_: yes, I think once so far
  301. marc_ Ge0rG: are you planning to participate to one again?
  302. Ge0rG pep.: in that case, you could add an element `<my-id-is-much-unique/>`
  303. pep. Ge0rG, I think the issue was that some entities rewrite these @id
  304. pep. But otherwise yes
  305. Ge0rG marc_: there are none planned
  306. Ge0rG pep.: in that case we should at least force origin-id=@id at the sender ;)
  307. pep. I don't disagree with that
  308. pep. That's what my implementation does
  309. Ge0rG but it's a hacky legacy mess.
  310. pep. Now I just need to figure out if we need it everywhere or just in some specific places..
  311. pep. I can start sending it all the time I guess :/
  312. Ge0rG pep.: I suppose they only need to be in non-ephemeral messages
  313. pep. Ge0rG, I agree it's a legacy mess. We need XMPP42 and proper @id
  314. Ge0rG Why is https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2019_September_Stockholm in the newsletter but not on the wiki frontpage?
  315. pep. hmm. dunno why it's in the newsletter even. Not that we're telling off people, but we're already 10-11 and that's a good number
  316. pep. At least for the venue we have
  317. pep. We could probably do some more, but not a lot more
  318. Ge0rG pep.: that might be a good info for the top of the wiki page.
  319. pep. Sure
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  344. flow "Cisco’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)"
  345. flow https://blogs.cisco.com/security/cisco-scores-big-with-a-new-ietf-approved-internet-standard
  346. Ge0rG Looks like we can all go home now.
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  355. lovetox so say i have my last mam stanza-id, and i query mam with that every day. but server upgrades and loses the archive
  356. lovetox so now that stanza-id is not anymore in the archive, and when i query i get a item-not-found error
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  358. lovetox should i assume now the archive is lost? and treat it like first time use, query 7 days or whatever i would do on first startup?
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  361. pep. flow, wut. The IETF doesn't have rules against that? Especially when they're closely related? Though I guess Cisco could have infiltrated the IETF and just reversed the decision :P
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  382. Holger lovetox: FWIW ejabberd just returns the next n messages still archived in this case, but yes as per the current MAM spec you'd get item-not-found. I guess the alternatives are either what you said or full sync in that case. Answer isn't obvious to me.
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  384. lovetox Holger, the server cant know the next n messages
  385. lovetox ah ejabberd can because it uses timestamps as id
  386. lovetox Gajim right now just fails forever
  387. lovetox there is no fallback if a stanza-id is not found :D
  388. Holger Yeah. 0059 suggests that behavior in case the server does know, but 0313 disagrees.
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  392. Holger lovetox: If you usually do a full sync no matter what except on first start, I would think it makes some sense to also do a full sync after item-not-found.
  393. pep. not sure fullsync is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything
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