XSF Discussion - 2019-08-08


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  52. jonas’

    and set it to moderated

  53. jonas’

    someone with power must create the muc on muc.xmpp.org

  54. jonas’

    you can’t just join there and create it

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  56. Ge0rG

    One does not simply...

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  81. Holger

    I once moved a room by setting it to moderated and sending invites to the new room on join. Plus a message explaining things.

  82. Holger

    (One of the very few Prosody modules I wrote.) :-)

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  89. lovetox

    So MattJ would you be so kind and use your power to create the MUC

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  102. flow

    yes, please :)

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  105. ralphm

    I can create it

  106. jonas’

    yes please

  107. Ge0rG

    don't forget to give it a good name :)

  108. Zash

    xdev?

  109. Zash

    x is moar cool than j 🙂

  110. Holger

    .oO( Sounds like the beginning of a discussion that can easily take several weeks ... )

  111. jonas’

    yog-sothoth@

  112. ralphm

    I gave it a great name: jdev

  113. Seve

    xdev +1 :(

  114. Zash

    Why not both, jxdev!

  115. Zash

    or xjdev

  116. jonas’

    ... dev@ would do the trick too, it’s already on muc.xmpp.org

  117. ralphm

    This is not a democracy.

  118. Seve

    jonas’, true!

  119. jonas’

    I hereby call for a member meeting to remove ralphm from Board</joking>

  120. Holger

    I would've suggested dev/devel/development as well, but there might be some value in sticking to the same name as the jdev@ mailing list.

  121. Zash

    Historical Reasons™

  122. Kev

    Or just sentimental value.

  123. ralphm

    jonas’: there's this member election coming up, though, where I have to renew.

  124. jonas’

    consistency is nice

  125. ralphm

    Kev & jonas’: these.

  126. ralphm

    Also Zash

  127. Yagiza

    Hello!

  128. Yagiza

    About OMEMO implementation.

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  130. Yagiza

    When do I need to ask user if he trust the identity?

  131. Yagiza

    In save_identity or is_trusted_identity callback?

  132. Zash

    This sounds like a question for xmpp:jdev@muc.xmpp.org?join 🙂

  133. lovetox

    Yagiza, neither

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  135. lovetox

    If signal asks is trusted, you return always true

  136. lovetox

    you have to implement your own trust management on top

  137. lovetox

    otherwise signal will not build sessions until user interacts with the client which would result in very bad UX

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  142. Yagiza

    lovetox, so, I should always trust the identity, but notify user that identity cannot be trusted yet.

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  144. lovetox

    depends on what you want to do

  145. lovetox

    What im saying is, you should circumvent signal trust management and always return True when signal lib asks you

  146. lovetox

    that does not mean you Trust anything though

  147. lovetox

    you have to add your own trust management on top of that

  148. lovetox

    could mean you trust on first contact, (blind trust), could mean you always want a user interaction before a message is sent ..

  149. lovetox

    whatever you think is in the security interests auf your users

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  208. ralphm bangs gavel

  209. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  210. ralphm

    Who do we have?

  211. nyco

    _o/

  212. nyco

    and hi

  213. Seve

    Hello

  214. nyco

    quorum

  215. Guus

    ola

  216. ralphm

    MattJ: around?

  217. MattJ

    Here

  218. Seve

    Wow, nice

  219. ralphm

    CooL!

  220. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

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  223. nyco

    ok...

  224. ralphm

    Thanks nyco

  225. ralphm

    2. Compliance badges

  226. nyco

    yep, so

  227. nyco

    the poll has run

  228. nyco

    I can pack it and deliver it

  229. ralphm

    What's the gist?

  230. nyco

    also I can share the form and sheet with board members

  231. nyco

    but

  232. nyco

    we raised the question whether we wanted or not to enlarge the audience to standards@

  233. nyco

    so... 1. stop 2. more ?

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  235. ralphm

    It depends, really. How many responses did you get and can we work with it?

  236. ralphm

    I'm not opposed to extending the audience

  237. Guus

    I think it's kind of silly to, after all these weeks and various discussions / emails, go back _again_ to asking for input.

  238. ralphm

    right

  239. ralphm

    I prefer to take a decision.

  240. Guus

    We're trying to pick a nice image here - it's not a life/death decision. Let's try to come to a conclusion.

  241. nyco

    all right

  242. Seve

    Yes, we have been talking about this for a bit already

  243. nyco

    I'll send the results... to what list?

  244. nyco

    also, who wants to have it shared?

  245. MattJ

    Have there been any responses from people saying they would definitely use them? I confess I haven't been keeping up to date, but I mostly/only(?) read negative comments

  246. ralphm

    I'm ok with sharing a quantative summary, not individual comments.

  247. nyco

    these are anonymous

  248. nyco

    19 responses

  249. nyco

    ok, I'll send it to board@

  250. nyco

    next topic?

  251. ralphm

    thanks

  252. ralphm

    nyco: what

  253. ralphm

    's the overal theme of the result?

  254. nyco

    our preferred badge

  255. nyco

    and predictions if it's gonna be used

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  258. ralphm

    You're not giving anything away, are you?

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  260. nyco

    I gotta count

  261. ralphm

    oh

  262. ralphm

    Ok, moving on then.

  263. nyco

    spoiler warning: don't read what's next => opensourcedesign wins

  264. nyco

    spoiler warning: don't read what's next => people will use it

  265. ralphm

    Yay

  266. nyco

    that's positive to very positive

  267. Seve

    :)

  268. ralphm

    Let's then discuss it finally next week.

  269. ralphm

    3. M-Sec

  270. ralphm

    This card has been on our agenda for a while

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  273. Guus

    If I recall correctly, this is the second email from the same project. I'm unsure if we handled the first one.

  274. ralphm

    I responded to their initial request, and they send a reply, but I haven't followed up since.

  275. Guus

    And did a second email / invitation then arrive again out of the blue?

  276. ralphm

    I think so

  277. Guus

    I remember thinking: "didn't they already reach out?"

  278. ralphm

    We got a response from Charlotte Tucker on May 17.

  279. ralphm

    Where they mentioned that they were primarily working on awareness, nothing in depth, yet

  280. Guus

    I found that response to be somewhat of a disappointment.

  281. Guus

    it didn't show any relation with XMPP, other than "you have a website and we'd like to use you to boost SEO"

  282. ralphm

    Yes, indeed.

  283. Seve

    I was not sure how we could create those 'synergies' between us

  284. Guus

    (this is from memory, I might be off a tad, but that was what my impression was)

  285. Guus

    If there's potential for XMPP usage / evangelism, I'm interested in pursuing furher (that was my thought to the initial email)

  286. ralphm

    Is this really a new e-mail? Because I haven't seen a repeat.

  287. Seve

    I didn't see anything related to XMPP last time. Do you know if they were using XMPP?

  288. Guus

    the second email made me question if it'd be in our interest to move further.

  289. ralphm

    Guus: for me? no

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  291. nyco

    to me it's disconnted

  292. ralphm

    It is the same text?

  293. Guus

    I'm unsure if there was really a new e-mail. Might be my email client acting up

  294. Guus

    in any case, this got me wondering: "We understand KEIO, our M-Sec partner (in CC), is already engaged with you."

  295. Guus

    I'd be interested in finding out what our relation with KEIO is.

  296. Seve

    Same here

  297. nyco

    https://github.com/nkzwlab

  298. ralphm

    Guus: I wrote this last time, so I think the answer is 'little':

  299. ralphm

    Thanks for reaching out to the XMPP Standards Foundation. The M-Sec Project seems like a great effort and looks interesting. I am aware that people at KEIO University have been involved with the XMPP community previously. E.g. around Efficient XML Interchange (EXI), internationalization of XMPP servers, as well as sensor networks over XMPP. Can you briefly go into how you think the XMPP Standards Foundation (or the XMPP community in general) could contribute to this project? Are you looking at using XMPP as a communication platform for chat (use case 2), sensor networks (use case 1), or the IoT use cases? Are you seeking guidance on the usage of protocols or libraries, or collaboration on defining new or improving existing XMPP Extension Protocols?

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  301. Seve

    Did we get a reply?

  302. ralphm

    Yes:

  303. ralphm

    At this initial stage (the first year of the project), we would be interested in a primary communications collaboration, in which we mutually cross-promote project activities and results (on social media, blogs, intermediary contacts, etc.). At this point, we are building up awareness of the project. We could spread your news in our communities and help you to continue being positioned as a thought-leader in this sphere. Do you currently use these platforms? - Social - Blog - Newsletter - Other platforms On our side, we are building social accounts, a blog and newsletter, as well as leveraging our partners' already well-established platforms. Then, we would be interested to discuss the ways to collaborate that you have mentioned in the coming months. We are working on defining the use cases and how they will be implemented in the smart cities of Santander and Fujisawa. Our partners in the M-Sec project would step into the conversation at this time.

  304. Guus

    ah, yes, this, apart from any lack of XMPP references, is what put me off from Charlotte's response: "Do you currently use these platforms?" To me, that's them putting in zero effort to finding out what we do. That does not bode well for future collaboration, in my view.

  305. ralphm

    I have not responded to that one, unfortunately, but I don't feel my questions were actually answered.

  306. Seve

    Ahh, right

  307. ralphm

    So until I see a different type of message, that doesn't sound like SEO, I think we do nothing.

  308. Guus

    In my view, we either do nothing, or give it one shot and express our concern that this looks like a buckshot attempt at SEO.

  309. ralphm

    If you really feel the latter is needed, I could

  310. Seve

    I'm fine with the collaboration on social media and such, but it looks like it is just that :/ Would have been great if they could reply to your response, ralphm. I would see it as beneficial for us if they use XMPP, otherwise makes no sense we continue with it

  311. Guus

    I don't think it's needed - but if there's a chance that this might turn out beneficial for the XSF / XMPP, we might want to give it one last shot.

  312. Guus

    but I'm equally happy with just dropping it.

  313. nyco

    if they want to google-bomb "m-sec", they'll have to fight against "meter per second"... good luck... a name change would be better :)

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  315. ralphm

    hehe

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  317. ralphm

    Ok, I'll think about it for a bit. Moving on.

  318. ralphm

    4. Roadmap

  319. ralphm

    I'm back from vacation and will do this before next meeting.

  320. ralphm

    5. AOB

  321. ralphm

    ?

  322. MattJ

    None here

  323. Guus

    Any updates from the German effort?

  324. Guus

    Ge0rG ?

  325. Guus

    I'd love for that to take form / shape, as I think it could benefit XMPP.

  326. Seve

    Indeed

  327. ralphm

    I think it hasn't been two months yet.

  328. ralphm

    I assume Ge0rG will ping us when there's news.

  329. Guus

    Sure, but if we can proactively support Alex and him, I'd love for us to be ready for that.

  330. ralphm

    Of course.

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  332. Ge0rG

    No news. Sorry.

  333. Guus

    but lets discuss that with him present.

  334. Guus

    ah

  335. ralphm

    Ge0rG: so mostly waiting for now?

  336. Ge0rG

    I'd still like to know from Board what we would expect from that collaboration.

  337. Ge0rG

    ralphm: indeed.

  338. Seve

    Something we should have ready, I have to say. Just for when the time comes

  339. ralphm

    We'll, I'm mostly interested in what kind of things they want to 'fix' and what kind of regulation would help achieve this.

  340. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I suppose the goal is to enforce federation between IM networks, while preserving E2EE and user security and privacy.

  341. ralphm

    I mean, of course I'd love the whole world to use XMPP for all messaging, as people use SMTP for e-mail, but that seems a bridge too far for now.

  342. Guus

    I'm not expecting specifics, but I'd love for a result a la XMPP becoming the standard to be used by inter-governmental-agency communications.

  343. ralphm

    Right. I'm not even sure if that stated goal is actually achievable.

  344. Ge0rG

    indeed, mandating open standards for government IM needs, or even for all IM systems, would essentially mean XMPP

  345. ralphm

    But even if it is, what kind of 'features' are included in there? Just plain-text messages? Groups? Media?

  346. Guus

    let that be part of the to-be-had discussion with them.

  347. Guus

    let's first see if they're interested in moving towards something like this.

  348. ralphm

    So yeah, I'd like to participate asking such questions.

  349. ralphm

    Ge0rG: does that help at all?

  350. Ge0rG

    ralphm: a bit indeed. However I'm not sure how we can arrange such a discussion.

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  352. Ge0rG

    This won't work easily if I'm a proxy.

  353. Guus

    if not a mandated solution, then at the very least recognision that XMPP is a good way to solve privacy / security IM issues within certain fields might be a nice outcome.

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  355. Ge0rG

    In that case, we(the XSF) should rather prepare a list of questions and a list of demands/requirements

  356. Ge0rG

    And I can bring that in

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  358. ralphm

    Ge0rG: after their response, I suppose?

  359. Guus

    Ge0rG - what are your own thoughts here?

  360. Guus

    as you've brought it up in the first place, you must have some sort of desired end-result?

  361. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'd like to get one step ahead of them

  362. Ge0rG

    I also need to separate my own desires from the official XSF voice.

  363. Seve

    Which are?

  364. Guus

    sure, but maybe they overlap, at least partially 😃

  365. Ge0rG

    I'd like to have a law mandating that IM systems over a certain size must expose an API/federation mechanism based on open standards.

  366. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I feel anyone here can express their desires, and then we come up with a rough consensus.

  367. Ge0rG

    The representative was very interested in E2EE, and I fear OMEMO won't cut it.

  368. Ge0rG

    So maybe we need to have some kind of MLS based proposal

  369. ralphm

    Ge0rG: do you mean public services?

  370. ralphm

    Ge0rG: do business-oriented platforms like Slack count?

  371. Guus

    MLS?

  372. Kev

    Guus: Standardised E2E.

  373. Kev

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/

  374. Ge0rG

    ralphm: that's an excellent question

  375. Seve

    Ge0rG, https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/

  376. Guus

    If there's interest in E2EE, and there's an observed lack of that in XMPP, then maybe an outcome could be grants to work on improving that.

  377. Seve

    it was for Guus and also late... :) Thanks Kev

  378. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'd say that all commercial providers should have to do that.

  379. nyco

    has the gavel been banged?

  380. ralphm

    nyco: not yet

  381. Guus

    Ge0rG maybe we should start to create some sort of document to capture motives like these

  382. Ge0rG

    ralphm: there might be a set of useful objective criteria when to require support for federation

  383. MattJ

    Yeah, I have to prep for a meeting starting in 10

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  385. Ge0rG

    Guus: did you say "wiki"?

  386. Guus

    maybe something less public

  387. Ge0rG

    Does that matter? Do we expect to get gamed by Facebook?

  388. Guus

    I'd hate to see ideas that we're not going to pitch in the end, find their way to people that we didn't want to pitch those ideas too.

  389. Ge0rG

    Guus: alright. Can you arrange for something?

  390. Seve

    Should we find the way to work on this via email instead (so we can free the Board members)

  391. Ge0rG

    Seve: some kind of etherpad maybe, communicated via email to Board + X(?)

  392. Guus

    something like that would work for me

  393. Guus

    People said they needed to go though.

  394. Guus

    maybe wrap this up?

  395. ralphm

    Sure, or just a mailing list might suffice.

  396. Ge0rG

    Sure

  397. Daniel

    Some politicians in Germany seem eager to get some form of regulation going. So the question is not 'is regulation a good thing' but instead can we help them to at least make this less idiotic

  398. ralphm

    Wrapping up.

  399. Seve

    Ge0rG, yes

  400. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  401. ralphm

    +1W

  402. ralphm

    7. Close

  403. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  404. Guus

    Daniel +!

  405. ralphm bangs gavel

  406. nyco

    thx

  407. Seve

    Perfect, thank you guys :)

  408. Guus

    I'm unsure if I can make it next week.

  409. Guus

    Thanks guys!

  410. Daniel

    Also if they are going to regulate anyway I'd rather have them use xmpp than for example wire or matrix

  411. ralphm

    Daniel: understood. Elections coming up?

  412. Guus

    MattJ - could you arrange for a private mailing list for this to be set up, with your iteam hat on?

  413. Ge0rG

    I'd prefer an etherpad actually.

  414. Daniel

    ralphm: not really.

  415. Ge0rG

    We want to make a document after all

  416. nyco has sent the minutes

  417. Guus

    Ge0rG fine, etherpad it is - I've never created/used one of those though

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  419. nyco has sent the results for the compliance badges poll

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  426. Guus

    Thanks nyco - seems like a clear outcome to me.

  427. Guus

    let's discuss next week how to proceed. I'd love to quickly engage the author and see if he's interested in completing these designs.

  428. Ge0rG

    nyco: where did you send it to?

  429. Ge0rG

    Ah, to board@. What a pity.

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  520. Guus

    jonas’ would you mind trying to crawl igniterealtime.org again? DH key size should be better now.

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  527. jonas’

    Guus, it runs into a timeout now, it appears my prosody isn’t getting a reply after it sent the stream header after STARTTLS

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  529. Guus

    jonas’: that's odd. I've retreated away from the laptop, will investigate later

  530. Guus

    Thanks for trying

  531. jonas’

    you’re welcome

  532. jonas’

    Guus, FYI debug logs from my side https://paste.debian.net/hidden/fdf8e8df/

  533. Guus

    I noticed buffer sizing issues before, maybe that's what's going on here

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  548. jonas’

    thinking about introducing a "critical" (= you need to understand this element, otherwise reply with feature-not-implemented) attribute in XMPP, it’s not that easy actually.

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  550. jonas’

    for example, one can have content which is critical for a client to understand, but not for the servers (even possibly MUC servers, so the @to addressed entity) to understand, for example, a mandatory read receipt

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  552. jonas’

    and then, one could imagine a thing which would need to be understood by a smart archive (for example, reactions), too

  553. jonas’

    or stuff which needs to be only understood by forwarding servers (i.e. both users servers), like extended addressing for server-side carbon-copying or something

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  557. Zash

    You just need to invent a feature to advertise understanding of "critical" and mark it itself as critical `<feature var='critical' xmlns:critical='urn:xmpp:critical:sqrt(-1)' critical:critical='critical'/>`

  558. jonas’

    you could’ve just written urn:xmpp:critical:i ;P

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  572. Ge0rG

    You forgot to make it ALL UPPERCASE

  573. ralphm

    Ge0rG, Kev, Seve is anyone in our community involved in MLS?

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  575. Ge0rG

    I'm not, but I'd like to if I find the time

  576. jonas’

    ralphm, I think Dave participated in the earlier times on the mailing list

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  578. ralphm

    I'm happy for the security mob to do their thing, but eventually we should probably have an XMPP proposal to use it.

  579. Ge0rG

    Yes

  580. ralphm

    Unsure when would be a good time to get involved, whether XMPP has particular properties that need to be taken into account.

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  583. ralphm

    But I guess dwd might have a better idea on this.

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