jonas’someone with power must create the muc on muc.xmpp.org
jonas’you can’t just join there and create it
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Ge0rGOne does not simply...
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HolgerI once moved a room by setting it to moderated and sending invites to the new room on join. Plus a message explaining things.
Holger(One of the very few Prosody modules I wrote.) :-)
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lovetoxSo MattJ would you be so kind and use your power to create the MUC
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flowyes, please :)
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ralphmI can create it
jonas’yes please
Ge0rGdon't forget to give it a good name :)
Zashxdev?
Zashx is moar cool than j 🙂
Holger.oO( Sounds like the beginning of a discussion that can easily take several weeks ... )
jonas’yog-sothoth@
ralphmI gave it a great name: jdev
Sevexdev +1 :(
ZashWhy not both, jxdev!
Zashor xjdev
jonas’... dev@ would do the trick too, it’s already on muc.xmpp.org
ralphmThis is not a democracy.
Sevejonas’, true!
jonas’I hereby call for a member meeting to remove ralphm from Board</joking>
HolgerI would've suggested dev/devel/development as well, but there might be some value in sticking to the same name as the jdev@ mailing list.
ZashHistorical Reasons™
KevOr just sentimental value.
ralphmjonas’: there's this member election coming up, though, where I have to renew.
jonas’consistency is nice
ralphmKev & jonas’: these.
ralphmAlso Zash
YagizaHello!
YagizaAbout OMEMO implementation.
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YagizaWhen do I need to ask user if he trust the identity?
YagizaIn save_identity or is_trusted_identity callback?
ZashThis sounds like a question for xmpp:jdev@muc.xmpp.org?join 🙂
lovetoxYagiza, neither
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lovetoxIf signal asks is trusted, you return always true
lovetoxyou have to implement your own trust management on top
lovetoxotherwise signal will not build sessions until user interacts with the client which would result in very bad UX
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Yagizalovetox, so, I should always trust the identity, but notify user that identity cannot be trusted yet.
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lovetoxdepends on what you want to do
lovetoxWhat im saying is, you should circumvent signal trust management and always return True when signal lib asks you
lovetoxthat does not mean you Trust anything though
lovetoxyou have to add your own trust management on top of that
lovetoxcould mean you trust on first contact, (blind trust), could mean you always want a user interaction before a message is sent ..
lovetoxwhatever you think is in the security interests auf your users
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm0. Welcome + Agenda
ralphmWho do we have?
nyco_o/
nycoand hi
SeveHello
nycoquorum
Guusola
ralphmMattJ: around?
MattJHere
SeveWow, nice
ralphmCooL!
ralphm1. Minute taker
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nycook...
ralphmThanks nyco
ralphm2. Compliance badges
nycoyep, so
nycothe poll has run
nycoI can pack it and deliver it
ralphmWhat's the gist?
nycoalso I can share the form and sheet with board members
nycobut
nycowe raised the question whether we wanted or not to enlarge the audience to standards@
nycoso...
1. stop
2. more
?
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ralphmIt depends, really. How many responses did you get and can we work with it?
ralphmI'm not opposed to extending the audience
GuusI think it's kind of silly to, after all these weeks and various discussions / emails, go back _again_ to asking for input.
ralphmright
ralphmI prefer to take a decision.
GuusWe're trying to pick a nice image here - it's not a life/death decision. Let's try to come to a conclusion.
nycoall right
SeveYes, we have been talking about this for a bit already
nycoI'll send the results... to what list?
nycoalso, who wants to have it shared?
MattJHave there been any responses from people saying they would definitely use them? I confess I haven't been keeping up to date, but I mostly/only(?) read negative comments
ralphmI'm ok with sharing a quantative summary, not individual comments.
nycothese are anonymous
nyco19 responses
nycook, I'll send it to board@
nyconext topic?
ralphmthanks
ralphmnyco: what
ralphm's the overal theme of the result?
nycoour preferred badge
nycoand predictions if it's gonna be used
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ralphmYou're not giving anything away, are you?
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nycoI gotta count
ralphmoh
ralphmOk, moving on then.
nycospoiler warning: don't read what's next => opensourcedesign wins
nycospoiler warning: don't read what's next => people will use it
ralphmYay
nycothat's positive to very positive
Seve:)
ralphmLet's then discuss it finally next week.
ralphm3. M-Sec
ralphmThis card has been on our agenda for a while
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GuusIf I recall correctly, this is the second email from the same project. I'm unsure if we handled the first one.
ralphmI responded to their initial request, and they send a reply, but I haven't followed up since.
GuusAnd did a second email / invitation then arrive again out of the blue?
ralphmI think so
GuusI remember thinking: "didn't they already reach out?"
ralphmWe got a response from Charlotte Tucker on May 17.
ralphmWhere they mentioned that they were primarily working on awareness, nothing in depth, yet
GuusI found that response to be somewhat of a disappointment.
Guusit didn't show any relation with XMPP, other than "you have a website and we'd like to use you to boost SEO"
ralphmYes, indeed.
SeveI was not sure how we could create those 'synergies' between us
Guus(this is from memory, I might be off a tad, but that was what my impression was)
GuusIf there's potential for XMPP usage / evangelism, I'm interested in pursuing furher (that was my thought to the initial email)
ralphmIs this really a new e-mail? Because I haven't seen a repeat.
SeveI didn't see anything related to XMPP last time. Do you know if they were using XMPP?
Guusthe second email made me question if it'd be in our interest to move further.
ralphmGuus: for me? no
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nycoto me it's disconnted
ralphmIt is the same text?
GuusI'm unsure if there was really a new e-mail. Might be my email client acting up
Guusin any case, this got me wondering: "We understand KEIO,
our M-Sec partner (in CC), is already engaged with you."
GuusI'd be interested in finding out what our relation with KEIO is.
SeveSame here
nycohttps://github.com/nkzwlab
ralphmGuus: I wrote this last time, so I think the answer is 'little':
ralphmThanks for reaching out to the XMPP Standards Foundation. The M-Sec Project seems like a great effort and looks interesting. I am aware that people at KEIO University have been involved with the XMPP community previously. E.g. around Efficient XML Interchange (EXI), internationalization of XMPP servers, as well as sensor networks over XMPP.
Can you briefly go into how you think the XMPP Standards Foundation (or the XMPP community in general) could contribute to this project?
Are you looking at using XMPP as a communication platform for chat (use case 2), sensor networks (use case 1), or the IoT use cases? Are you seeking guidance on the usage of protocols or libraries, or collaboration on defining new or improving existing XMPP Extension Protocols?
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SeveDid we get a reply?
ralphmYes:
ralphmAt this initial stage (the first year of the project), we would be interested in a primary communications collaboration, in which we mutually cross-promote project activities and results (on social media, blogs, intermediary contacts, etc.). At this point, we are building up awareness of the project. We could spread your news in our communities and help you to continue being positioned as a thought-leader in this sphere.
Do you currently use these platforms?
- Social
- Blog
- Newsletter
- Other platforms
On our side, we are building social accounts, a blog and newsletter, as well as leveraging our partners' already well-established platforms.
Then, we would be interested to discuss the ways to collaborate that you have mentioned in the coming months. We are working on defining the use cases and how they will be implemented in the smart cities of Santander and Fujisawa. Our partners in the M-Sec project would step into the conversation at this time.
Guusah, yes, this, apart from any lack of XMPP references, is what put me off from Charlotte's response: "Do you currently use these platforms?" To me, that's them putting in zero effort to finding out what we do. That does not bode well for future collaboration, in my view.
ralphmI have not responded to that one, unfortunately, but I don't feel my questions were actually answered.
SeveAhh, right
ralphmSo until I see a different type of message, that doesn't sound like SEO, I think we do nothing.
GuusIn my view, we either do nothing, or give it one shot and express our concern that this looks like a buckshot attempt at SEO.
ralphmIf you really feel the latter is needed, I could
SeveI'm fine with the collaboration on social media and such, but it looks like it is just that :/
Would have been great if they could reply to your response, ralphm.
I would see it as beneficial for us if they use XMPP, otherwise makes no sense we continue with it
GuusI don't think it's needed - but if there's a chance that this might turn out beneficial for the XSF / XMPP, we might want to give it one last shot.
Guusbut I'm equally happy with just dropping it.
nycoif they want to google-bomb "m-sec", they'll have to fight against "meter per second"... good luck... a name change would be better :)
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ralphmhehe
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ralphmOk, I'll think about it for a bit. Moving on.
ralphm4. Roadmap
ralphmI'm back from vacation and will do this before next meeting.
ralphm5. AOB
ralphm?
MattJNone here
GuusAny updates from the German effort?
GuusGe0rG ?
GuusI'd love for that to take form / shape, as I think it could benefit XMPP.
SeveIndeed
ralphmI think it hasn't been two months yet.
ralphmI assume Ge0rG will ping us when there's news.
GuusSure, but if we can proactively support Alex and him, I'd love for us to be ready for that.
ralphmOf course.
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Ge0rGNo news. Sorry.
Guusbut lets discuss that with him present.
Guusah
ralphmGe0rG: so mostly waiting for now?
Ge0rGI'd still like to know from Board what we would expect from that collaboration.
Ge0rGralphm: indeed.
SeveSomething we should have ready, I have to say. Just for when the time comes
ralphmWe'll, I'm mostly interested in what kind of things they want to 'fix' and what kind of regulation would help achieve this.
Ge0rGralphm: I suppose the goal is to enforce federation between IM networks, while preserving E2EE and user security and privacy.
ralphmI mean, of course I'd love the whole world to use XMPP for all messaging, as people use SMTP for e-mail, but that seems a bridge too far for now.
GuusI'm not expecting specifics, but I'd love for a result a la XMPP becoming the standard to be used by inter-governmental-agency communications.
ralphmRight. I'm not even sure if that stated goal is actually achievable.
Ge0rGindeed, mandating open standards for government IM needs, or even for all IM systems, would essentially mean XMPP
ralphmBut even if it is, what kind of 'features' are included in there? Just plain-text messages? Groups? Media?
Guuslet that be part of the to-be-had discussion with them.
Guuslet's first see if they're interested in moving towards something like this.
ralphmSo yeah, I'd like to participate asking such questions.
ralphmGe0rG: does that help at all?
Ge0rGralphm: a bit indeed. However I'm not sure how we can arrange such a discussion.
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Ge0rGThis won't work easily if I'm a proxy.
Guusif not a mandated solution, then at the very least recognision that XMPP is a good way to solve privacy / security IM issues within certain fields might be a nice outcome.
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Ge0rGIn that case, we(the XSF) should rather prepare a list of questions and a list of demands/requirements
Ge0rGAnd I can bring that in
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ralphmGe0rG: after their response, I suppose?
GuusGe0rG - what are your own thoughts here?
Guusas you've brought it up in the first place, you must have some sort of desired end-result?
Ge0rGralphm: I'd like to get one step ahead of them
Ge0rGI also need to separate my own desires from the official XSF voice.
SeveWhich are?
Guussure, but maybe they overlap, at least partially 😃
Ge0rGI'd like to have a law mandating that IM systems over a certain size must expose an API/federation mechanism based on open standards.
ralphmGe0rG: I feel anyone here can express their desires, and then we come up with a rough consensus.
Ge0rGThe representative was very interested in E2EE, and I fear OMEMO won't cut it.
Ge0rGSo maybe we need to have some kind of MLS based proposal
ralphmGe0rG: do you mean public services?
ralphmGe0rG: do business-oriented platforms like Slack count?
GuusIf there's interest in E2EE, and there's an observed lack of that in XMPP, then maybe an outcome could be grants to work on improving that.
Seveit was for Guus and also late... :) Thanks Kev
Ge0rGralphm: I'd say that all commercial providers should have to do that.
nycohas the gavel been banged?
ralphmnyco: not yet
GuusGe0rG maybe we should start to create some sort of document to capture motives like these
Ge0rGralphm: there might be a set of useful objective criteria when to require support for federation
MattJYeah, I have to prep for a meeting starting in 10
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Ge0rGGuus: did you say "wiki"?
Guusmaybe something less public
Ge0rGDoes that matter? Do we expect to get gamed by Facebook?
GuusI'd hate to see ideas that we're not going to pitch in the end, find their way to people that we didn't want to pitch those ideas too.
Ge0rGGuus: alright. Can you arrange for something?
SeveShould we find the way to work on this via email instead (so we can free the Board members)
Ge0rGSeve: some kind of etherpad maybe, communicated via email to Board + X(?)
Guussomething like that would work for me
GuusPeople said they needed to go though.
Guusmaybe wrap this up?
ralphmSure, or just a mailing list might suffice.
Ge0rGSure
DanielSome politicians in Germany seem eager to get some form of regulation going. So the question is not 'is regulation a good thing' but instead can we help them to at least make this less idiotic
ralphmWrapping up.
SeveGe0rG, yes
ralphm6. Date of Next
ralphm+1W
ralphm7. Close
ralphmThanks all!
GuusDaniel +!
ralphmbangs gavel
nycothx
SevePerfect, thank you guys :)
GuusI'm unsure if I can make it next week.
GuusThanks guys!
DanielAlso if they are going to regulate anyway I'd rather have them use xmpp than for example wire or matrix
ralphmDaniel: understood. Elections coming up?
GuusMattJ - could you arrange for a private mailing list for this to be set up, with your iteam hat on?
Ge0rGI'd prefer an etherpad actually.
Danielralphm: not really.
Ge0rGWe want to make a document after all
nycohas sent the minutes
GuusGe0rG fine, etherpad it is - I've never created/used one of those though
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nycohas sent the results for the compliance badges poll
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GuusThanks nyco - seems like a clear outcome to me.
Guuslet's discuss next week how to proceed. I'd love to quickly engage the author and see if he's interested in completing these designs.
Ge0rGnyco: where did you send it to?
Ge0rGAh, to board@. What a pity.
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Guusjonas’ would you mind trying to crawl igniterealtime.org again? DH key size should be better now.
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jonas’Guus, it runs into a timeout now, it appears my prosody isn’t getting a reply after it sent the stream header after STARTTLS
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Guusjonas’: that's odd. I've retreated away from the laptop, will investigate later
GuusThanks for trying
jonas’you’re welcome
jonas’Guus, FYI debug logs from my side https://paste.debian.net/hidden/fdf8e8df/
GuusI noticed buffer sizing issues before, maybe that's what's going on here
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jonas’thinking about introducing a "critical" (= you need to understand this element, otherwise reply with feature-not-implemented) attribute in XMPP, it’s not that easy actually.
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jonas’for example, one can have content which is critical for a client to understand, but not for the servers (even possibly MUC servers, so the @to addressed entity) to understand, for example, a mandatory read receipt
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jonas’and then, one could imagine a thing which would need to be understood by a smart archive (for example, reactions), too
jonas’or stuff which needs to be only understood by forwarding servers (i.e. both users servers), like extended addressing for server-side carbon-copying or something
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ZashYou just need to invent a feature to advertise understanding of "critical" and mark it itself as critical
`<feature var='critical' xmlns:critical='urn:xmpp:critical:sqrt(-1)' critical:critical='critical'/>`
jonas’you could’ve just written urn:xmpp:critical:i ;P
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Ge0rGYou forgot to make it ALL UPPERCASE
ralphmGe0rG, Kev, Seve is anyone in our community involved in MLS?
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Ge0rGI'm not, but I'd like to if I find the time
jonas’ralphm, I think Dave participated in the earlier times on the mailing list
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ralphmI'm happy for the security mob to do their thing, but eventually we should probably have an XMPP proposal to use it.
Ge0rGYes
ralphmUnsure when would be a good time to get involved, whether XMPP has particular properties that need to be taken into account.
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ralphmBut I guess dwd might have a better idea on this.
XSF Discussion - 2019-08-08