XSF Discussion - 2019-08-16

  1. jcbrand has left

  2. pdurbin has joined

  3. pdurbin has left

  4. lskdjf has left

  5. xnamed has left

  6. xnamed has joined

  7. patrick has left

  8. arc has left

  9. arc has joined

  10. Syndace has left

  11. Chobbes has joined

  12. Chobbes has left

  13. Chobbes has joined

  14. andy has left

  15. Chobbes has left

  16. Chobbes has joined

  17. neshtaxmpp has left

  18. neshtaxmpp has joined

  19. Chobbes has left

  20. arc has left

  21. arc has joined

  22. pdurbin has joined

  23. arc has left

  24. arc has joined

  25. pdurbin has left

  26. kokonoe has left

  27. kokonoe has joined

  28. neshtaxmpp has left

  29. neshtaxmpp has joined

  30. Syndace has joined

  31. david has left

  32. david has joined

  33. Yagiza has joined

  34. valo has left

  35. valo has joined

  36. adityaborikar has joined

  37. pdurbin has joined

  38. adityaborikar has left

  39. adityaborikar has joined

  40. pdurbin has left

  41. kokonoe has left

  42. Nekit has joined

  43. adityaborikar has left

  44. lumi has joined

  45. kokonoe has joined

  46. xnamed has left

  47. Steve Kille has joined

  48. lumi has left

  49. adityaborikar has joined

  50. Ge0rG has joined

  51. aj has joined

  52. aj has left

  53. adityaborikar has left

  54. adityaborikar has joined

  55. jcbrand has joined

  56. sezuan has joined

  57. Tobias has joined

  58. pdurbin has joined

  59. aj has joined

  60. pdurbin has left

  61. LNJ has joined

  62. sezuan has left

  63. Nekit has left

  64. Nekit has joined

  65. valo has left

  66. aj has left

  67. lovetox has joined

  68. adityaborikar has left

  69. adityaborikar has joined

  70. goffi has joined

  71. Steve Kille has left

  72. UsL has left

  73. karoshi has joined

  74. lovetox has left

  75. lorddavidiii has joined

  76. lovetox has joined

  77. intosi has left

  78. intosi has joined

  79. valo has joined

  80. kokonoe has left

  81. sezuan has joined

  82. kokonoe has joined

  83. j.r has left

  84. j.r has joined

  85. Mikaela has joined

  86. adityaborikar has left

  87. adityaborikar has joined

  88. pdurbin has joined

  89. pdurbin has left

  90. mimi89999 has left

  91. mimi89999 has joined

  92. Mikaela has left

  93. Mikaela has joined

  94. COM8 has joined

  95. COM8 has left

  96. COM8 has joined

  97. valo has left

  98. andy has joined

  99. Steve Kille has joined

  100. adityaborikar has left

  101. COM8

    Is there a reason why all XEPs related to IoT are "Retracted" or "Deferred"?

  102. Ge0rG

    COM8: yes, lack of author commitment.

  103. COM8

    hmm so what's the state of XMPP for IoT then?

  104. Ge0rG

    COM8: very sad

  105. COM8

    nice :D

  106. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure whether there is a set of actually usable IoT protocols, and AFAIK there is no set of libraries / widget toolkits / whatever at the middleware layer.

  107. ralphm

    I believe these protocols are actually being used, mostly in collaboration with their author. However, I would say they deviate XEP-0134: XMPP Design Guidelines.

  108. ralphm

    In the sense that there seem to be preexisting models which where then modeled on top of XMPP.

  109. adityaborikar has joined

  110. COM8

    Ge0rG: Yes, noticed that too since I was doing research on it. I'm currently planning to create a XMPP-IoT extension for my client (UWPX) and setup a simple image for ESP32s.

  111. COM8 has left

  112. ralphm

    I think it would be great if someone took a fresh look at this domain and design a set of protocols that use existing building blocks and disregard this prior work, to see what it would look like. I think it could be all a lot simpler and more elegant.

  113. Ge0rG

    ralphm: yes, that was also my general impression.

  114. Ge0rG

    But then again, "IoT" means something different to everybody, so we should maybe try to define more precise scopes, and have a first phase of distinct protocol desings for each, and then look how we can aggregate them

  115. ralphm


  116. Ge0rG

    Going the good ol' design-by-committee route of the XSF will lead to yet another monstrosity that's impossible to implement

  117. Ge0rG

    because everybody will bring in their pet feature, and in the end it will be unbearably unmaintainable

  118. COM8 has joined

  119. COM8 has left

  120. Steve Kille has left

  121. COM8 has joined

  122. ralphm

    The problem with the current set of IoT protocols was that they were not designed by people with previous XMPP protocol knowledge.

  123. COM8 has left

  124. Ge0rG

    I have knowledge of XMPP and I have knowlede of home automation, but I lack the time.

  125. ralphm

    And that everyone in our community didn't really have the cycles to make it better aligned.

  126. ralphm

    I'm not a fan of design by committee; having three or so people, with some XMPP experience, hammering it out with running code, is usually pretty good.

  127. Ge0rG


  128. lorddavidiii has left

  129. ralphm

    But sometimes this is hard, like with Jingle.

  130. jonasโ€™

    there is now a Triage permission on github which allows to read and clone a repo, plus manage issues and PRs.

  131. jonasโ€™

    this would be excellent for folks like pep. who want to get their hands dirty on editor tasks, but are not official editor team members and thus should not be given +w on the repository

  132. Ge0rG

    When I did my own IoT deployment, I ended up reinventing the wheel on top of MQTT. I really wish we had an XMPP based middleware for sensors and actors, and maybe a bunch of pre-defined profiles like "RGB light"

  133. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I think XMPP shines as a routing mechanism, using simpler protocols locally (on resource constrained devices) and bridging them.

  134. flow

    I wrote the "Simple IoT" XEP after working with peter wahers XEPs (the "IoT XEPs"): http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-siot/xep-siot.html Most of his XEPs re-invent the wheel when existing building blocks could be used IMHO

  135. ralphm

    flow: didn't I just say that? ๐Ÿคฃ

  136. Ge0rG

    "Last Updated: 2016-09-04" ๐Ÿ˜ž

  137. flow

    ralphm, just wanted to confirm that

  138. flow

    Of course, everyones idea of "IoT" is different

  139. Ge0rG

    flow: while you are there, I've recently had an ugly (but non-breaking) stacktrace from the Smack debugger during roster load: https://op-co.de/tmp/smack-roster-trace.txt

  140. madhur.garg has left

  141. valo has joined

  142. flow

    Ge0rG, where is the source of org.yaxim.androidclient.util.JULHandler ?

  143. flow

    > Ge0rG> "Last Updated: 2016-09-04" ๐Ÿ˜ž I am not sure what this is trying to express: Disappointed because I did not work at it? Or because nobody cared enough to try it and continue working on it?

  144. COM8 has joined

  145. flow

    Also I believe XMPP already has most things for IoT. Any further/new IoT XEP would probably be a specification allowing vendor interoperability. And since vendors do not have interest in that, we see no activity in this regard. If you want to do IoT for your own, e.g. control your lightbulb, you probably would just go ahead and implement it based on ad-hoc commands (which would allow your 10 year old PSI instance to control it FWIW \o/)

  146. ralphm

    If it hasn't been submitted to the editor, then indeed chances are it is not being looked at

  147. Ge0rG

    flow: https://github.com/ge0rg/yaxim/blob/appcompat/src/org/yaxim/androidclient/util/JULHandler.java

  148. flow

    Ge0rG, used Smack version?

  149. Ge0rG

    what ralphm said.

  150. Ge0rG

    flow: 4.3.5 snapshot

  151. ralphm

    Besides exposure, submission of XEP creates a more clear legal situation for others to contribute.

  152. ralphm


  153. Ge0rG

    a.k.a. "don't call it a (proto)XEP until it's submitted"

  154. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  155. flow

    ralphm, I am not sure I would agree, at least I don't see why that is the case

  156. flow

    But it's not like I have problems submitting XEPs, I guess you know that ;)

  157. Ge0rG

    flow: before you submit it to the XSF, it's just an XML or HTML file on your web server.

  158. flow

    Ge0rG, the question is why submission or the acceptance as protoXEP creates a more clear legal situation for others to contribute?

  159. flow

    I mean, yes the editor asks you questions, but those questions could also be seen as answered by writing the xml/html file

  160. flow

    and publishing it

  161. kokonoe has left

  162. flow

    Ge0rG, which smack version is it, because the stacktrace does not match what is at https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/4.3/smack-im/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smack/roster/Roster.java#L1601

  163. Ge0rG

    flow: because by submitting it as a proto-XEP, you accept the https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy

  164. flow

    I'd say I already accept that by publishing a document which states that it is full conformance of the XSF's IPR

  165. kokonoe has joined

  166. Steve Kille has joined

  167. ralphm

    Having a document with rights assigned to the XSF, but not formally received or hosted by it, makes it muddy.

  168. COM8

    Regarding IoT: Since I'm working on it anyway for my B.Sc. Thesis I will try to come up with a protocol that uses already existing features of XMPP and try (once I got it up and running) to standardize it.

  169. Ge0rG

    flow: the stacktrace also doesn't match my source files (WTF?), but the error happens in `LOGGER.log(Level.FINE, "RosterResultListener received {}", packet);` when single-stepping

  170. adityaborikar has left

  171. Ge0rG

    COM8: you might or might not use http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-siot/xep-siot.html as a foundation

  172. ralphm

    COM8: splendid

  173. ralphm

    Ge0rG: well, maybe. As I said, muddy.

  174. flow

    COM8, also feel free to join iot@muc.xmpp.org

  175. COM8

    Ge0rG: Thanks will have a look at it

  176. COM8

    flow: ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป

  177. Ge0rG

    COM8: what kind of IoT are you doing?

  178. ralphm

    flow: if you believe your document is worthy of being worked on, just send it to the editor. Even if it results in major rewrites

  179. Ge0rG

    I know that Cisco and some others are pushing XMPP for IT Security Incident data exchange, which is also a hot topic for me

  180. ralphm

    Ge0rG: interesting. Is any of them in our community?

  181. Ge0rG

    ralphm: no :(

  182. Ge0rG

    ralphm: https://blogs.cisco.com/security/cisco-scores-big-with-a-new-ietf-approved-internet-standard

  183. flow

    well PSA is listed as author for xmpp-grid (RFC8600)

  184. j.r has left

  185. j.r has joined

  186. COM8

    Ge0rG: Home automation so trying to provide an interface for all sensors/devices in XMPP apps (DataForms).

  187. COM8

    ralphm: Yes

  188. ralphm

    I'm not opposed to do work in the IETF, t.b.h.

  189. Ge0rG

    at a high level, you need to define sensor / actor types ("switch", "temperature sensor", "RGB light", ...) which probably map to abstract types like "1x binary", "3x float value (0...1)"

  190. Ge0rG

    and then have a discovery mechanism, a config mechanism and a pubsub mechanism

  191. ralphm

    So is it reasonable?

  192. adityaborikar has joined

  193. ralphm

    I think I looked at it before. This work started in 2016 or so

  194. ralphm

    And MILE is older.

  195. ralphm


  196. adityaborikar has left

  197. Daniel has left

  198. Daniel has joined

  199. Steve Kille has left

  200. Ge0rG

    Is M2M the same as IoT?

  201. Daniel has left

  202. Daniel has joined

  203. ralphm

    I think so

  204. ralphm

    Or at least some subset

  205. COM8 has left

  206. Ge0rG

    We are depressingly understaffed.

  207. COM8 has joined

  208. pdurbin has joined

  209. adityaborikar has joined

  210. Nekit has left

  211. Nekit has joined

  212. UsL has joined

  213. j.r has left

  214. Ge0rG

    flow: are you interested in corrected line numbers from the stacktrace?

  215. Dele (Mobile) has left

  216. j.r has joined

  217. flow

    Ge0rG, no, I think I found the bug

  218. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  219. Ge0rG

    flow: great!

  220. madhur.garg has joined

  221. Dele (Mobile) has left

  222. lskdjf has joined

  223. pdurbin has left

  224. lorddavidiii has joined

  225. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  226. pdurbin has joined

  227. david has left

  228. COM8 has left

  229. COM8 has joined

  230. david has joined

  231. Dele (Mobile) has left

  232. david has left

  233. kokonoe has left

  234. david has joined

  235. kokonoe has joined

  236. alameyo has left

  237. alameyo has joined

  238. COM8 has left

  239. pdurbin has left

  240. Steve Kille has joined

  241. kokonoe has left

  242. pdurbin has joined

  243. mr.fister has left

  244. mr.fister has joined

  245. adityaborikar has left

  246. debacle has joined

  247. XSF has left

  248. adityaborikar has joined

  249. Mikaela has left

  250. Mikaela has joined

  251. Tobias has left

  252. Tobias has joined

  253. mr.fister has left

  254. aj has joined

  255. COM8 has joined

  256. pdurbin has left

  257. eevvoor has joined

  258. rion has left

  259. rion has joined

  260. mr.fister has joined

  261. j.r has left

  262. COM8 has left

  263. Steve Kille has left

  264. j.r has joined

  265. Nekit has left

  266. Nekit has joined

  267. adityaborikar has left

  268. adityaborikar has joined

  269. adityaborikar has left

  270. adityaborikar has joined

  271. mr.fister has left

  272. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  273. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  274. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  275. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  276. debacle has left

  277. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  278. Daniel has left

  279. j.r has left

  280. adityaborikar has left

  281. Dele (Mobile) has left

  282. rion has left

  283. rion has joined

  284. j.r has joined

  285. Chobbes has joined

  286. lorddavidiii has left

  287. xnamed has joined

  288. adityaborikar has joined

  289. adityaborikar has left

  290. jubalh has joined

  291. Daniel has joined

  292. j.r has left

  293. rion has left

  294. rion has joined

  295. j.r has joined

  296. Chobbes has left

  297. LNJ has left

  298. pdurbin has joined

  299. pdurbin has left

  300. jubalh has left

  301. alameyo has left

  302. alameyo has joined

  303. adityaborikar has joined

  304. adityaborikar has left

  305. alameyo has left

  306. alameyo has joined

  307. adityaborikar has joined

  308. valo has left

  309. Chobbes has joined

  310. alameyo has left

  311. alameyo has joined

  312. j.r has left

  313. Steve Kille has joined

  314. j.r has joined

  315. j.r has left

  316. aj has left

  317. Chobbes has left

  318. Chobbes has joined

  319. edhelas has left

  320. madhur.garg has left

  321. madhur.garg has joined

  322. edhelas has joined

  323. Steve Kille has left

  324. sezuan has left

  325. j.r has joined

  326. valo has joined

  327. xnamed has left

  328. Chobbes has left

  329. Chobbes has joined

  330. Steve Kille has joined

  331. j.r has left

  332. pdurbin has joined

  333. Wojtek has joined

  334. Wojtek has left

  335. j.r has joined

  336. Nekit has left

  337. Nekit has joined

  338. LNJ has joined

  339. pdurbin has left

  340. Steve Kille has left

  341. arc has left

  342. arc has joined

  343. Nekit has left

  344. Nekit has joined

  345. j.r has left

  346. Steve Kille has joined

  347. arc has left

  348. arc has joined

  349. Daniel has left

  350. j.r has joined

  351. Daniel has joined

  352. mimi89999 has left

  353. mimi89999 has joined

  354. lumi has joined

  355. lumi has left

  356. Steve Kille has left

  357. sezuan has joined

  358. sezuan has left

  359. sezuan has joined

  360. sezuan has left

  361. sezuan has joined

  362. sezuan has left

  363. sezuan has joined

  364. sezuan has left

  365. sezuan has joined

  366. sezuan has left

  367. sezuan has joined

  368. andy has left

  369. andy has joined

  370. sezuan has left

  371. sezuan has joined

  372. david has left

  373. sezuan has left

  374. waqas has joined

  375. david has joined

  376. pdurbin has joined

  377. mimi89999 has left

  378. pdurbin has left

  379. Daniel has left

  380. Daniel has joined

  381. Daniel has left

  382. Daniel has joined

  383. Daniel has left

  384. Daniel has joined

  385. xnamed has joined

  386. xnamed has left

  387. xnamed has joined

  388. Nekit has left

  389. mimi89999 has joined

  390. Yagiza has left

  391. mimi89999 has left

  392. adityaborikar has left

  393. j.r has left

  394. fippo has joined

  395. j.r has joined

  396. jubalh has joined

  397. lumi has joined

  398. mimi89999 has joined

  399. Allo has left

  400. Allo has joined

  401. kokonoe has joined

  402. mimi89999 has left

  403. jubalh has left

  404. mimi89999 has joined

  405. mimi89999 has left

  406. mimi89999 has joined

  407. j.r has left

  408. Steve Kille has joined

  409. xnamed has left

  410. david has left

  411. andrey.g has left

  412. alameyo has left

  413. Guus has left

  414. Nekit has joined

  415. Guus has joined

  416. alameyo has joined

  417. neshtaxmpp has left

  418. sezuan has joined

  419. mimi89999 has left

  420. sezuan has left

  421. sezuan has joined

  422. sezuan has left

  423. sezuan has joined

  424. sezuan has left

  425. sezuan has joined

  426. mimi89999 has joined

  427. lumi has left

  428. sezuan has left

  429. sezuan has joined

  430. mr.fister has joined

  431. sezuan has left

  432. sezuan has joined

  433. sezuan has left

  434. sezuan has joined

  435. sezuan has left

  436. sezuan has joined

  437. sezuan has left

  438. sezuan has joined

  439. sezuan has left

  440. sezuan has joined

  441. sezuan has left

  442. sezuan has joined

  443. sezuan has left

  444. sezuan has joined

  445. Chobbes has left

  446. sezuan has left

  447. sezuan has joined

  448. sezuan has left

  449. sezuan has joined

  450. sezuan has left

  451. sezuan has joined

  452. sezuan has left

  453. sezuan has joined

  454. sezuan has left

  455. sezuan has joined

  456. sezuan has left

  457. sezuan has joined

  458. sezuan has left

  459. sezuan has joined

  460. sezuan has left

  461. sezuan has joined

  462. Lance has joined

  463. sezuan has left

  464. sezuan has joined

  465. sezuan has left

  466. sezuan has joined

  467. andrey.g has joined

  468. david has joined

  469. sezuan has left

  470. LNJ has left

  471. eevvoor has left

  472. Chobbes has joined

  473. Tobias has left

  474. pdurbin has joined

  475. pdurbin has left

  476. edhelas has left

  477. Tobias has joined

  478. edhelas has joined

  479. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  480. Tobias has left

  481. Tobias has joined

  482. Dele (Mobile) has left

  483. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  484. Dele (Mobile) has left

  485. Chobbes has left

  486. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  487. Dele (Mobile) has left

  488. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  489. Dele (Mobile) has left

  490. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  491. Dele (Mobile) has left

  492. Dele (Mobile) has joined

  493. pep_ has joined

  494. pep_ has left

  495. pep_ has joined

  496. pep_ has left

  497. Mikaela has left

  498. Mikaela has joined

  499. karoshi has left

  500. Lance has left

  501. goffi has left

  502. Mikaela has left

  503. Lance has joined

  504. mimi89999 has left

  505. Lance has left

  506. pdurbin has joined

  507. pdurbin has left

  508. Lance has joined

  509. andy has left

  510. UsL has left

  511. UsL has joined

  512. Lance has left

  513. Chobbes has joined

  514. Wojtek has joined

  515. Wojtek has left