XSF Discussion - 2019-08-16

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  101. COM8 Is there a reason why all XEPs related to IoT are "Retracted" or "Deferred"?
  102. Ge0rG COM8: yes, lack of author commitment.
  103. COM8 hmm so what's the state of XMPP for IoT then?
  104. Ge0rG COM8: very sad
  105. COM8 nice :D
  106. Ge0rG I'm not sure whether there is a set of actually usable IoT protocols, and AFAIK there is no set of libraries / widget toolkits / whatever at the middleware layer.
  107. ralphm I believe these protocols are actually being used, mostly in collaboration with their author. However, I would say they deviate XEP-0134: XMPP Design Guidelines.
  108. ralphm In the sense that there seem to be preexisting models which where then modeled on top of XMPP.
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  110. COM8 Ge0rG: Yes, noticed that too since I was doing research on it. I'm currently planning to create a XMPP-IoT extension for my client (UWPX) and setup a simple image for ESP32s.
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  112. ralphm I think it would be great if someone took a fresh look at this domain and design a set of protocols that use existing building blocks and disregard this prior work, to see what it would look like. I think it could be all a lot simpler and more elegant.
  113. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, that was also my general impression.
  114. Ge0rG But then again, "IoT" means something different to everybody, so we should maybe try to define more precise scopes, and have a first phase of distinct protocol desings for each, and then look how we can aggregate them
  115. ralphm Sure
  116. Ge0rG Going the good ol' design-by-committee route of the XSF will lead to yet another monstrosity that's impossible to implement
  117. Ge0rG because everybody will bring in their pet feature, and in the end it will be unbearably unmaintainable
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  122. ralphm The problem with the current set of IoT protocols was that they were not designed by people with previous XMPP protocol knowledge.
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  124. Ge0rG I have knowledge of XMPP and I have knowlede of home automation, but I lack the time.
  125. ralphm And that everyone in our community didn't really have the cycles to make it better aligned.
  126. ralphm I'm not a fan of design by committee; having three or so people, with some XMPP experience, hammering it out with running code, is usually pretty good.
  127. Ge0rG Agreed.
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  129. ralphm But sometimes this is hard, like with Jingle.
  130. jonas’ there is now a Triage permission on github which allows to read and clone a repo, plus manage issues and PRs.
  131. jonas’ this would be excellent for folks like pep. who want to get their hands dirty on editor tasks, but are not official editor team members and thus should not be given +w on the repository
  132. Ge0rG When I did my own IoT deployment, I ended up reinventing the wheel on top of MQTT. I really wish we had an XMPP based middleware for sensors and actors, and maybe a bunch of pre-defined profiles like "RGB light"
  133. ralphm Ge0rG: I think XMPP shines as a routing mechanism, using simpler protocols locally (on resource constrained devices) and bridging them.
  134. flow I wrote the "Simple IoT" XEP after working with peter wahers XEPs (the "IoT XEPs"): http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-siot/xep-siot.html Most of his XEPs re-invent the wheel when existing building blocks could be used IMHO
  135. ralphm flow: didn't I just say that? 🤣
  136. Ge0rG "Last Updated: 2016-09-04" 😞
  137. flow ralphm, just wanted to confirm that
  138. flow Of course, everyones idea of "IoT" is different
  139. Ge0rG flow: while you are there, I've recently had an ugly (but non-breaking) stacktrace from the Smack debugger during roster load: https://op-co.de/tmp/smack-roster-trace.txt
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  142. flow Ge0rG, where is the source of org.yaxim.androidclient.util.JULHandler ?
  143. flow > Ge0rG> "Last Updated: 2016-09-04" 😞 I am not sure what this is trying to express: Disappointed because I did not work at it? Or because nobody cared enough to try it and continue working on it?
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  145. flow Also I believe XMPP already has most things for IoT. Any further/new IoT XEP would probably be a specification allowing vendor interoperability. And since vendors do not have interest in that, we see no activity in this regard. If you want to do IoT for your own, e.g. control your lightbulb, you probably would just go ahead and implement it based on ad-hoc commands (which would allow your 10 year old PSI instance to control it FWIW \o/)
  146. ralphm If it hasn't been submitted to the editor, then indeed chances are it is not being looked at
  147. Ge0rG flow: https://github.com/ge0rg/yaxim/blob/appcompat/src/org/yaxim/androidclient/util/JULHandler.java
  148. flow Ge0rG, used Smack version?
  149. Ge0rG what ralphm said.
  150. Ge0rG flow: 4.3.5 snapshot
  151. ralphm Besides exposure, submission of XEP creates a more clear legal situation for others to contribute.
  152. ralphm a
  153. Ge0rG a.k.a. "don't call it a (proto)XEP until it's submitted"
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  155. flow ralphm, I am not sure I would agree, at least I don't see why that is the case
  156. flow But it's not like I have problems submitting XEPs, I guess you know that ;)
  157. Ge0rG flow: before you submit it to the XSF, it's just an XML or HTML file on your web server.
  158. flow Ge0rG, the question is why submission or the acceptance as protoXEP creates a more clear legal situation for others to contribute?
  159. flow I mean, yes the editor asks you questions, but those questions could also be seen as answered by writing the xml/html file
  160. flow and publishing it
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  162. flow Ge0rG, which smack version is it, because the stacktrace does not match what is at https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/4.3/smack-im/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smack/roster/Roster.java#L1601
  163. Ge0rG flow: because by submitting it as a proto-XEP, you accept the https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy
  164. flow I'd say I already accept that by publishing a document which states that it is full conformance of the XSF's IPR
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  167. ralphm Having a document with rights assigned to the XSF, but not formally received or hosted by it, makes it muddy.
  168. COM8 Regarding IoT: Since I'm working on it anyway for my B.Sc. Thesis I will try to come up with a protocol that uses already existing features of XMPP and try (once I got it up and running) to standardize it.
  169. Ge0rG flow: the stacktrace also doesn't match my source files (WTF?), but the error happens in `LOGGER.log(Level.FINE, "RosterResultListener received {}", packet);` when single-stepping
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  171. Ge0rG COM8: you might or might not use http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-siot/xep-siot.html as a foundation
  172. ralphm COM8: splendid
  173. ralphm Ge0rG: well, maybe. As I said, muddy.
  174. flow COM8, also feel free to join iot@muc.xmpp.org
  175. COM8 Ge0rG: Thanks will have a look at it
  176. COM8 flow: 👍🏻
  177. Ge0rG COM8: what kind of IoT are you doing?
  178. ralphm flow: if you believe your document is worthy of being worked on, just send it to the editor. Even if it results in major rewrites
  179. Ge0rG I know that Cisco and some others are pushing XMPP for IT Security Incident data exchange, which is also a hot topic for me
  180. ralphm Ge0rG: interesting. Is any of them in our community?
  181. Ge0rG ralphm: no :(
  182. Ge0rG ralphm: https://blogs.cisco.com/security/cisco-scores-big-with-a-new-ietf-approved-internet-standard
  183. flow well PSA is listed as author for xmpp-grid (RFC8600)
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  186. COM8 Ge0rG: Home automation so trying to provide an interface for all sensors/devices in XMPP apps (DataForms).
  187. COM8 ralphm: Yes
  188. ralphm I'm not opposed to do work in the IETF, t.b.h.
  189. Ge0rG at a high level, you need to define sensor / actor types ("switch", "temperature sensor", "RGB light", ...) which probably map to abstract types like "1x binary", "3x float value (0...1)"
  190. Ge0rG and then have a discovery mechanism, a config mechanism and a pubsub mechanism
  191. ralphm So is it reasonable?
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  193. ralphm I think I looked at it before. This work started in 2016 or so
  194. ralphm And MILE is older.
  195. ralphm https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mile/charters
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  200. Ge0rG Is M2M the same as IoT?
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  203. ralphm I think so
  204. ralphm Or at least some subset
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  206. Ge0rG We are depressingly understaffed.
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  214. Ge0rG flow: are you interested in corrected line numbers from the stacktrace?
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  217. flow Ge0rG, no, I think I found the bug
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  219. Ge0rG flow: great!
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