XSF Discussion - 2019-08-17

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  283. lovetox

    it is getting ridicoulous with disco info

  284. lovetox

    i just added a feature, and this triggered hundreds of disco info requests

  285. lovetox

    this behavior is not scaleable

  286. lovetox

    we should do something about that

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  288. jonas’

    server-side caps optimization

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  291. ralphm

    lovetox: what's the use case?

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  296. admin1234

    cineva roman pe aici ?

  297. admin1234

    Daniel esti roman ?

  298. admin1234

    david esti roman ?

  299. admin1234

    admin1234 test

  300. admin1234

    Kev help my please

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  307. lovetox

    ralphm, im not sure what you mean

  308. lovetox

    not getting ddos'ed when you join some mucs?

  309. Ge0rG

    There is an experimental prosody module that will cache and auto deliver the disco#info for local clients.

  310. Ge0rG

    Unfortunately it's full of race conditions and/or doesn't work on prosody stable.

  311. ralphm

    lovetox: I didn't understand what you meant by you having added a feature.

  312. ralphm

    But now I do

  313. lovetox

    ralphm, its even worse

  314. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it's also the cause of a significant number of mobile wakeups, because there are also clients that join after you.

  315. lovetox

    because of a unfortunate example in the disco spec

  316. lovetox

    client add version numbers under the identity name attr

  317. lovetox

    means every new version of that client, you get spammed with disco info

  318. lovetox

    even though nothing changed about the caps

  319. Zash

    This is why I'm sceptical of version numbers in disco/caps

  320. lovetox

    in my opinion they should not be there, and nothing mandates that a version number has to be there

  321. lovetox

    its just devs put it there because its in one example i think

  322. lovetox

    we have 0092 for version

  323. lovetox

    there is no need to put this in disco info

  324. Zash

    Yeah. How often do you really need their version number?

  325. lovetox

    if i need it i request it

  326. lovetox

    of course it would be nice to have it in there, but the costs outweigh the benefits

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  328. lovetox

    and yeah i really almost never need the version number

  329. lovetox

    only if i display some details screen of the contact

  330. lovetox

    and if i open that its totally fine to send a 0092 request

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  332. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you could submit a PR fixing the example

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  337. ralphm

    But then it would have to come with a note to discourage the version?

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  339. eevvoor

    lovetox does in gajim exist a bookmark export? jabber.de lost all bookmarks of some users during a downgrade in july I think. In Berlin_me

  340. eevvoor

    lovetox does in gajim exist a bookmark export? jabber.de lost all bookmarks of some users during a downgrade in july I think. In Berlin's Meetup MUC was discussed that so such export exists yet.

  341. ralphm

    Also, I think in practice this isn't as much of an issue: the hash is cached for all users, so only the very first encounter of a new hash will cause a disco request.

  342. ralphm

    As a developer, yeah, that might be less nice.

  343. Daniel

    I think lovetox gets the worst of it because he is the one to first have a new hash

  344. Daniel

    But I've made a note to remove the version from Conversations' cache

  345. ralphm

    From disco info, you mean?

  346. wurstsalat

    eevvoor, there was a plugin once, but it didn't get ported to 1.0 I think

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  348. eevvoor

    wurstsalat, ah that is not long ago. cool, so there is something to build on.

  349. Daniel

    ralphm: yes

  350. ralphm

    lovetox: which example is it?

  351. wurstsalat

    eevvoor, https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/tree/gajim_0.16/offline_bookmarks

  352. eevvoor

    thx wurstsalat

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  360. lovetox

    ralphm, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0115.html#howitworks

  361. lovetox

    scroll a bit down

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  365. lovetox

    yeah and i guess as developer im getting the worst of it

  366. lovetox

    but in Gajim exist plugins that alter the disco info to announce support for some feature

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  369. lovetox

    But either way a server caching disco infos would be great

  370. lovetox

    i dont see any drawbacks

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  374. Ge0rG

    lovetox: race conditions when you change the caps at runtime

  375. lovetox

    do you have an example?

  376. lovetox

    i dont see a problem there, server gets a request for a hash, either he has it then he answers, or not then he routes the IQ

  377. Zash

    You're supposed to include the caps hash in the @node when querying, so that should be detectable

  378. Ge0rG

    Zash: some clients ignore that @node

  379. lovetox

    Ge0rG, how is this relevant?

  380. Zash

    "Some clients are broken"

  381. Ge0rG

    And IIRC we have the issue that the node value can be gamed

  382. lovetox

    ok you lost me

  383. Ge0rG

    Where's caps 2.0 when you need it

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  386. Ge0rG

    lovetox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html

  387. Ge0rG


  388. Zash


  389. Ge0rG

    The implication is that you must not use the cache across JIDs

  390. ralphm

    Screw that

  391. jonas’

    Ge0rG, huh? with XEP-0390 it should be safe, no?

  392. ralphm

    The whole idea of CAPS is that the hash is not related to the JID

  393. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I think so. Did you ask waqas yet?

  394. Zash

    What would you gain by such an attack anyways?

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  397. Ge0rG

    ralphm: the JID is the security boundary in this case

  398. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I did

  399. Ge0rG

    jonas’: did he answer?

  400. jonas’

    I don’t recall

  401. Ge0rG

    The XSF needs a new seal of approval, "Verified by waqas"

  402. lovetox

    there is not a single security relevant feature in disco info that comes to mind, that usual clients currently use

  403. lovetox

    and 0390 is save against all the attacks mentioned?

  404. jonas’

    it should betm

  405. jonas’

    at least as long as we stay on XML 1.0 :)

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  408. lovetox

    from a quick read, it seems not much work client side

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  411. flow

    jonas’, what happens if we don't stay xml 1.0?

  412. Ge0rG

    flow: is there ecaps2 support in smack yet?

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  414. jonas’

    flow, then the control characters used as separators become valid codepoints in XML (1.1) character data and are thus unsuitable as separators :)

  415. jonas’

    (for the hash function input)

  416. Zash

    Then what? DER?

  417. Zash

    Or other TLV-ish thing?

  418. jonas’

    prefix them with NUL should be safe

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  420. Ge0rG

    Is NUL illegal in XML 1.1? I anticipate that class of bugs.

  421. lovetox

    jonas’, why do we need a separator?

  422. lovetox

    its not like we are parsing the string we create again later

  423. Ge0rG

    No, but if you can create ambiguity, you can poison the cache with junk data

  424. lovetox

    ah i get it

  425. lovetox


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  427. lovetox

    but then it seems better to take < as separator but make sure every value

  428. lovetox

    as it will always be illigal as a value

  429. jonas’

    lovetox, < can easily be contained in form field values

  430. lovetox

    only as lt or?

  431. lovetox

    not as <

  432. jonas’

    lovetox, not to your application.

  433. jonas’

    Ge0rG, yes, NUL is illegal in XML 1.1

  434. jonas’

    lovetox, we need to look at the codepoint representation, not at the wireformat. the wireformat *could* be littered with &#number;-based escape codes creating *lots* of ambiguity and breaking the hashes. not to mention that many XML libraries won’t even give you access to that.

  435. lovetox

    you mean the lib converts &lt; to < before you have access to it?

  436. lovetox

    yes this would be a problem

  437. jonas’

    I sure hope the library does that, just like I sure hope that it does the reverse path

  438. lovetox

    never thought about it, it just works :D

  439. lovetox

    but yes i think it does also in my case

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  441. jonas’

    so, yeah, you need to use a codepoint (or sequence of codepoints) which is invalid in XML character data as separator

  442. jonas’

    go-to approach which is safe for XML 1.1 would be NUL + something

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  451. ralphm

    I think it is unlikely we'd ever switch to 1.1.

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  453. jonas’

    me too

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  468. Ge0rG

    jonas’: could you make ecaps2 future proof by prepending NUL to each separator?

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  488. jonas’

    Ge0rG, it’s in the queue

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  490. jonas’

    I might actually have the diff somewhere

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