XSF Discussion - 2019-08-27

  1. moparisthebest <ralphm> And indeed, maybe mod_block_strangers isn't the best approach. I can imagine various cases where you'd receive a message stanzas from a non-contact that you didn't direct presence to (bare or full). And didn't want it blocked.
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  4. moparisthebest For example, jmp.chat
  5. moparisthebest Where you want messages from SMS non-contacts
  6. moparisthebest They have to constantly change their server and client recommendations because of this
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  156. jonas’ moparisthebest, maybe talk to the server implementations about white-listing jmp.chat
  157. jonas’ that’s a reasonable use-case
  158. jonas’ and since you need to be registered with jmp.chat to receive messages from them (?) it is opt-in for each user fully and without extra config
  159. jonas’ could be a config switch obviously for the admin to disable the whitelisting
  160. jonas’ but I think by default it should be whitelisted
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  162. Ge0rG What about > Also blocking messages from strangers, server-wide, is a very bad idea.
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  168. jonas’ true
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  231. winfried Guus Ralphm maybe we should apply for this: https://www.forumstandaardisatie.nl/content/toetsen-van-standaarden
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  233. Guus winfried: i quickly scanned: seems we're to late?
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  237. winfried Guus: They have a continuous call and they accept twice a year. We missed the call for this autumn but can apply for the spring
  238. winfried And best prepare well for it...
  239. Guus kk
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  289. MattJ Ge0rG + all: mailing list archives should be working again now
  290. Ge0rG MattJ: awesome, thanks!
  291. Ge0rG Are the numbers still the same?
  292. MattJ You mean did old URLs break? No, I sincerely hope not
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  297. jonas’ MattJ, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2019-May/008986.html
  298. jonas’ oh, that’s members
  299. jonas’ but members should be public, no?
  300. jonas’ (it was, at least)
  301. jonas’ (I just grepped my xsf@ logs for a random mail.jabber.org link)
  302. jonas’ (other links to standards@ seem to work)
  303. ralphm Yes, should be public
  304. ralphm In principle, mailman knows which lists should be
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  314. Ge0rG jonas’: the evil thing about mailman silently renumbering is that all links still work, they just point to different mails
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  317. ralphm Yes that's horrible
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  319. ralphm At least for standards@ links archived by Google seem to match, with a quick sample
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  321. Ge0rG ralphm: thanks for checking.
  322. Ge0rG I'm sure there are still broken links on the wiki, from our last silent renumbering.
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  325. ralphm When was that? I have old links in my blog and haven't noticed issues
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  328. ralphm 2003-2005
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  330. Ge0rG ralphm: I suppose around 2016, when the infra went belly up
  331. ralphm Ok
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  336. Ge0rG ralphm: eg. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0352:_Client_State_Indication leads into a 404
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  340. Ge0rG https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0256:_Last_Activity_in_Presence has one 404 and one unrelated "XMPP or NodeJS" thread
  341. Ge0rG those two were the first hits of https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?search=mail.jabber.org&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go
  342. ralphm Hmm
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  344. Ge0rG I don't even dare going on
  345. ralphm Are you fixing them as you go?
  346. Guus Bear once provided me with server logs, that I grepped for frequent 404's
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  348. Guus by no means a full fix, but I used it to fix the most high-impact ones.
  349. Guus maybe that can be repeated?
  350. ralphm Particularly in this case, there's context to find the new working URLs
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  352. Ge0rG ralphm: nope. I have no idea where the links used to point to before
  353. Ge0rG and the 404s are kind of unexpected
  354. Ge0rG there used to be more wrong and less 404 links, IIRC
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  356. ralphm Well, you have links with known months. Give the relatively low volume, you can choose suitable replacements.
  357. ralphm (just go up one level, scan for the XEP by number or name)
  358. ralphm E.g. the CSI one: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-August/029037.html
  359. Ge0rG Right.
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  364. MattJ jonas’, oh, right
  365. MattJ I think that's part of my earlier attempts at a fix
  366. MattJ Apache was serving archives/private, and all the docs say to serve archive/public
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  368. moparisthebest ralphm, Ge0rG, jonas’ : it's not just servers that block non-contacts either, also clients https://github.com/ChatSecure/ChatSecure-iOS/issues/844 pretty crappy situation
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  370. moparisthebest and yea jmp.chat getting itself on a whitelist is probably doable, but kind of ruins the whole concept of an open federated system :/
  371. moparisthebest ditch whatsapp/telegram/$hotness_of_the_day and join XMPP and message anyone! (who doesn't happen to use a crippled client or server that they can't fix)
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  374. ralphm Well, for what it is worth, once I disabled that module, I almost immediately got a bunch of spam. I understand it blocks certain users, but I am not affected by that, and that trumps not getting spam. YMMV
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  376. moparisthebest and to be clear I think that's perfectly acceptable opt-in behavior, or even if it was on by default and you could opt-out
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  378. moparisthebest just to have it hard-coded in clients, and server-wide in popular public servers where you can't disable it for your JID is bad bad
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  380. ralphm Sure
  381. MattJ Agreed - a standard way to enable/disable it would be great
  382. Zash Magic blocking command-ish thing?
  383. MattJ Someone XEP it and we could implement it in Prosody in less than an hour
  384. Ge0rG Or, maybe, you know, a way to smartly block just the spam messages.
  385. Ge0rG Or, slightly less useful, a kind of captcha-on-first-contact
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  387. ralphm Yeah, I don't believe in that.
  388. ralphm I'm tempted to say: my server will only ever forward anything (including presence subscription requests) to the client, if there is a matching outgoing presence request or approval.
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  391. ralphm And then something to cover MUC/MIX.
  392. Holger ... invitations.
  393. ralphm for MUC?
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  395. Holger Yeah.
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  397. Holger That's one of those things that typically fail with mod_block_strangers.
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  400. ralphm I don't remember how MUC invitations work, but in MIX there is the inviter - channel - invitee triangle and in that case it would indeed only work if both people have eachother in their roster
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  403. ralphm I'm not sure if that's a negative, depending on how hard you want to block spam
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  407. jonas’ ralphm, MUC has both ways
  408. jonas’ with the MUC channel in between or without
  409. ralphm The big issue, of course, is needing some kind of out-of-band exchange of JIDs, or maybe phone number matching.
  410. jonas’ with is required for rooms where members are not allowed to edit the member list, but are allowed to send invites.
  411. ralphm When we were implementing (only) MIX, I looked in detail at its mediated invites, and really like that model.
  412. jonas’ mediated invites are not spoofable, which is nice, but the problem is with spam of those, yes
  413. ralphm Because it won't cause blockage of invites from 'unknown' entities like the room (the invite comes directly from the inviter to the invitee), so that blocking JIDs will also never cause you to be bothered by people via MIX channels.
  414. ralphm And then if you require a bidirectional relationship, that would block probably most spam.
  415. ralphm (at the expense of ease-of-use, probably)
  416. jonas’ s/, probably//
  417. jonas’ ralphm, what you describe does not sound like a mediated invite to me
  418. ralphm well, I suppose it is mediated in reverse. It requires the participation of the channel.
  419. ralphm I.e. someone can join the channel only if it got an invite that was approved by the channel, and it will only receive invites from non-blocked people.
  420. jonas’ I don’t get this, do you have a link to the document for me to read?
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  436. ralphm jonas’: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0407.html#usecase-user-invite
  437. jonas’ ralphm, ah, yes, that’s neat
  438. jonas’ so there’s a token from the MIX involed
  439. jonas’ so there’s a token from the MIX involved
  440. jonas’ but I could still spoof that
  441. jonas’ ah, but that doesn’t matter because you’d be filtering non-roster contacts
  442. ralphm If you wanted you could implement a step where the invitee checks the invite with the channel, before showing the invite to the user.
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  448. Ge0rG With three parties involved, you can't trust any one to represent the other.
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  450. Ge0rG I've never blocked messages from strangers, and strangely I hardly receive any spam
  451. ralphm Ge0rG: maybe you are a natural anti-spam measure 🤣
  452. Ge0rG It used to be different.
  453. jonas’ ralphm, that requires a way for the channel to say "yes, that token is valid" without joining
  454. ralphm Indeed
  455. jonas’ ralphm, this is simply one of the occasions where Ge0rG did (does) what he was (is) preaching
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  459. Ge0rG jonas’: if you are going to join anyway, and that join depends on the token being valid, you can just skip the round trip
  460. Ge0rG Clients are auto joining for years now.
  461. jonas’ Ge0rG, the point is to validate the token to rule out dumb invite spam
  462. ralphm The point is that you may want to validate the invite before bothering the user
  463. jonas’ unless you’re collaborating with the MIX service, you don’t have valid tokens to invite people
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  465. ralphm In this scenario, you'd minimize spam.
  466. ralphm Also, implicitly the inviter does trust the channel
  467. Ge0rG Spammers would never collaborate with a MIX service
  468. ralphm So that's why I think it works
  469. jonas’ if the spammers collaborate with the MIX service, the obvious solution is to punish the MIX service.
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  471. Ge0rG > ralphm: there is a disapproved SPAM WG for that, in which you can become a member after signing an NDA with the blood of your first-born. That offer is still open, BTW, in case you are interested in not blocking strangers.
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  473. pep. How much is invite spam a thing? I've never experienced it (I mean from spammers. I do get invite spam otherwise but from "legit" users)
  474. Ge0rG pep.: never got that so far
  475. ralphm It's been a long time since I got a bonfide invite
  476. Ge0rG Most invites I'm getting from myself as a shortcut to join a MUC on my mobile
  477. ralphm But I get multiple invites per week
  478. Ge0rG ralphm: do you happen to have xml?
  479. ralphm Not at the moment, but can hold on to it
  480. ralphm Next time
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  483. Ge0rG ralphm: that would be great.
  484. Ge0rG is collecting samples
  485. ralphm nods
  486. ralphm Got a few from default.rs
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  490. wurstsalat any updates regarding DOAP ? gajim does also provide one now
  491. pep. There's a PR awaiting, not sure what's blocking. I'd say editor's processing time
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  493. pep. I'll have a look after we get together with jonas’
  494. Ge0rG Wiring a DOAP looks like a significant effort
  495. Zash copy an existing, edit the name, call it a day
  496. wurstsalat Just implement all the features, then you don't have to filter XEPs ;)
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  498. Ge0rG wurstsalat: fewer features, less work.
  499. wurstsalat I see your point
  500. pep. Ge0rG: I'm sure somebody(tm) could PR a doap file for yaxim once it's deployed
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  502. pep. Then you'd only have to update it
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  504. Ge0rG pep.: I'd actually appreciate that
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  507. wurstsalat Ge0rG, do you have a list of supported XEPs?
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  512. Ge0rG wurstsalat: more or less, at https://yaxim.org/features/
  513. jonas’ pep., the website is not editors realm
  514. pep. Ah
  515. pep. Board?
  516. jonas’ I just happen to know a bit about pelican so I did a few things back then
  517. jonas’ I don’t think there’s a formal team
  518. jonas’ actually
  519. jonas’ I have merge powers there, not sure why :)
  520. jonas’ Guus and I do most of the reviews
  521. pep. Then we should submit that PR to board probably
  522. wurstsalat Ge0rG, Feb 1st, 2017 4:06 pm is sufficiently recent?
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  524. Ge0rG wurstsalat: probably not, but it's the most recent I have ready.
  525. wurstsalat If nobody else volunteers I would compile a doap with this
  526. Zash Didn't someone make a ???? to doap thingymajigger?
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  541. wurstsalat Ge0rG, there you go, an approximation ;) https://paste.gajim.org/view/22c58cfb
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  546. pep. wurstsalat, 0077 "complete" "no forms support", hmm.
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  549. wurstsalat That was me not parsing ;)
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  551. Ge0rG Is that rdf file now licensed under gpl3?
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  553. Ge0rG Should I also add the version tags for the specific XEPs?
  554. pep. yeah that'd be nice, maybe not required though(?)
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  559. Zash disco#info to doap? or was this the project that needed the registries to be in order?
  560. pep. disco#info to doap could help a bit I guess.
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  569. Ge0rG wurstsalat: Is that rdf file now licensed under gpl3?
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  582. lovetox hm the tombstone thing where we redirect to another address on destruction of a muc
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  585. lovetox if i disco such a muc, it has the new address inside <gone>new adress</gone> error condition
  586. lovetox is this somwhere specified ? or is this something people just do
  587. Zash XMPP core RFC
  588. Zash https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#rfc.section.
  589. adityaborikar has left
  590. jonas’ I would’ve pasted that if I hadn’t accidentally Ctrl+Q
  591. wurstsalat Ge0rG: however you like
  592. Zash WTFPL?
  593. wurstsalat Tell me if I have to be specific ;)
  594. lovetox ok nice although weird that they add xmpp: into it
  595. pep. lovetox, it makes sense to be a valid URI I think
  596. Zash lovetox, handy if you ever wanna redirect to a wobsite or email or whatever I suppose
  597. wurstsalat lovetox: I thought gajim did that (but didn't check)
  598. Ge0rG wurstsalat: I'm not yet sure whether to bundle it with the source or with the website.
  599. Ge0rG Zash: I don't want to design the UX for that
  600. Zash Yes, convention for where to put the doap xml plz 🙂
  601. pep. Zash, wherever you want? You have to give a url to xmpp.org anyway
  602. Zash Ge0rG: "This MUC has now become an mailing list. GL;HF"
  603. Ge0rG Channel you are in is tombstoned, suddenly a "new email" editor appears
  604. pep. Somewhere not everybody has access would be better I guess :)
  605. Zash Ge0rG, show a link maybe?
  606. jonas’ wurstsalat, "public domain"?
  607. lovetox Zash still weird, this makes parsing this much more complicated
  608. jonas’ lovetox, don’t you need a URI parser anyways?
  609. Zash Life is complicated.
  610. lovetox i have one yes
  611. pep. And it's most likely always going to be another MUC.. (or MIX, maybe? someday)
  612. Ge0rG Just drop it at the OS URI handler. If you are lucky, the xmpp URI will get bounced to your running instance.
  613. j.r has joined
  614. pep. Or maybe an http url to logs? :P
  615. Zash Note that it's a generic stanza error, applicable to anything and everything.
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  617. Ge0rG If you agree less lucky, you'll end up with a second client running, competing for your resource
  618. Zash Users, MUCs, pubsub nodes, entire servers etc
  619. Ge0rG Everything can be gone.
  620. Ge0rG Messages?
  621. Zash "The recipient or server can no longer be contacted at this address"
  622. jonas’ https://http.cat/410
  623. Zash Hm, maybe that excludes pubsub nodes then
  624. Ge0rG Makes me think of the Moved XEP mess...
  625. Zash Are pubsub nodes recipients?
  626. Zash Moving is a mess
  627. Zash Cool URL^W JIDs don't change!
  628. Ge0rG I moved to the web. Feel free to subscribe to my blog rss
  629. Ge0rG Now imagine we had an URI scheme for individual messages.
  630. Zash Linking to a static website where you detail your shutdown seems like a thing you could do
  631. Zash Imagine if we had URIs in to/from for everything
  632. Ge0rG You could link to your last message, like a will
  633. Ge0rG Zash: heresy!
  634. Zash `<message to="mailto:jdoe@example.com" from="xmpp:me@example.net" type="normal"><subject>Buy!</subject><body>Lorem ipsum</body></message>`
  635. Zash Sure would have simplifed some bridging scenarios
  636. wurstsalat Ge0rG: poezio, dino, and gajim host the doap in their git repos (easiest I think)
  637. wurstsalat pep: the doap from poezio follows a different scheme though (I think Link Mauve updated it)
  638. Ge0rG wurstsalat: so I'd link to a raw file on github? Hmmm...
  639. pep. blame Link Mauve
  640. pep. (he knows better)
  641. pep. Ge0rG, yeah
  642. linkmauve has joined
  643. Ge0rG So be it, then!
  644. zach has left
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  646. linkmauve wurstsalat, I think I updated all DOAP files I knew about when I improved the schema to have more consistent semantics.
  647. linkmauve I’ll have a look at some point, currently in Berlin and enjoying it too much to be too much on the computer. :D
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  650. linkmauve debacle btw, I’m in Berlin atm.
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  688. Ge0rG linkmauve: did you tell Holger?
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