XSF Discussion - 2019-08-28

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  105. eevvoor linkmauve, xmpp:berlin-meetup@conference.conversations.im?join
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  110. eevvoor perhaps a dinner with one of the berlin xmpp guys? ;)
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  113. linkmauve eevvoor, sure!
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  230. Guus PEP defines that a service must support the 'owner' and 'subscriber' affiliations. 0060 doesn't define an affiliation named 'subscriber'. How should I read that?
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  232. MattJ I quietly ignored that
  233. MattJ Well, not too quietly actually
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  236. MattJ https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-August/035319.html
  237. Zash Was it removed?
  238. MattJ If you read it in a certain way, I said I'd submit a PR
  239. Zash Did you?
  240. Guus it wasn't removed, because I just found the same thing 🙂
  241. MattJ I don't recall submitting a PR
  242. MattJ But the rules clearly state that now Guus has found it, it's his responsibility
  243. Guus ah, yes.
  244. Guus the infamous 'touched it last' rule
  245. Guus there's something to be said for requiring a affiliation that grants the subscribe privilege though
  246. Guus gotta feed the offsping - ttyl
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  250. MattJ Guus, yes, maybe, perhaps - but it's controlled by the access_model
  251. MattJ So as far as design goes, there would be the choice between modelling "entity may subscribe" as either a new affiliation, or as a property of the node
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  258. flow It really would be nice if we had an tracker for such issues (and ideally not github)
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  261. ralphm I'm fairly sure there never was a subscriber affiliation.
  262. ralphm flow: agreed. Maybe we should look into hosting a Gitlab instance, but first things first. MattJ is still making an inventory for iteam, and then they can define what to do next, and ask for help if needed.
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  265. Ge0rG what would be the principal difference between github and gitlab?
  266. jonas’ one is self hosted
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  268. jonas’ gitlab requires some serious amount of resources though
  269. Zash Write them down in the wiki?
  270. MattJ Yeah, I'd be a -1 to self-hosting anything, for now at least
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  272. MattJ We *had* a self-hosted tracker in the past, fwiw
  273. Ge0rG jonas’: besides of the obvious hosting question, what's the _principal_ difference?
  274. Ge0rG Both provide an issue tracker, so if we need an issue tracker, why not make use of our XSF github?
  275. Ge0rG If we need something different from an issue tracker, why use gitlab?
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  278. pep. Ge0rG: free software/not. The feature set is more or less similar tbh. Gitlab seems to be a lot more open to big projects out there though
  279. Zash cries over Github account being mandatory
  280. jonas’ pep., gitlab isn’t free software once you have an edition which doesn’t suck ;)
  281. pep. Gitlab's email handling is pretty cool nowadays, (I rarely need to open the browser), bit that's not something github is incapable of doing.
  282. Zash What were the requirements again?
  283. pep. jonas’: what features do you require for it not to suck?
  284. Zash What problem are we solving?
  285. jonas’ properly cross-referencing issues
  286. jonas’ you can link issues, but they don’t show up as related. you need something beyond CE for that
  287. pep. Zash: no idea. Somebody asked questions about github and gitlab
  288. jonas’ (don’t confuse this with the feature of related merge requests, which *is* in CE)
  289. Ge0rG I don't understand how "it's not github" is a relevant feature request, considering the state of our infra.
  290. pep. jonas’: yeah I get it
  291. pep. jonas’: it's not impossible that if a big project whines a bit to gitlab they backport it to CE :p
  292. pep. flow: what did you have in mind?
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  294. Zash I don't want "not github", I want "not requiring an account with a single vendor"
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  296. Ge0rG Zash: you can login to github with your gmail! 😁
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  345. Alex Memberbot is still online until our member meeting tomorrow. In case you have not voted yet ;-)
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  348. Ge0rG Alex: 👍
  349. Zash !
  350. Ge0rG And Link Mauve has reapplied!
  351. pep. But he hasn't voted yet and his server is down. And mom-support doesn't know how to bring it back up :p
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  361. Alex I accept votes also be Email
  362. pep. His email server is at the same place :p
  363. pep. Anyway, that's his issue to solve. He can contact you if he needs to
  364. pep. He's got jabberfr temporarily
  365. Ge0rG pep.: but how do we know it's actually him?
  366. pep. I was with him until yesterday
  367. pep. Or the day before
  368. pep. How do you know, I don't know
  369. pep. I was actually going to ask if that was something board and council made sure of at every session :p
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  371. Ge0rG On some days I don't know whether it's me or not
  372. pep. If council members can see jids in the room for example
  373. Ge0rG pep.: there are questions that must not be asked
  374. pep. He he he
  375. Zash Prosody supports nickname reservations, so that could be used
  376. ralphm I suppose our voting shots are long enough to cover issues like this. One should vote as early as one can. And missing one vote is not a disaster.
  377. ralphm Slots
  378. pep. ralphm: agreed
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  380. Zash But, people.
  381. flow pep., gitlab and discourse
  382. pep. Discourse is no issue tracker though. It's a forum? A place you can have discussions that are stored and that you can search through. We have the mailing lists for that
  383. ralphm Well, it is up to Alex to make a determination. And some things don't have to be solved by technology.
  384. flow pep., right, it's a forum and, depending on how you look at it, a mailing list
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  388. ralphm On GitHub, we choose that for convenience and you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
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  392. ralphm Primarily discussions are on our mailinglists, some here. If you want to provide new stuff or patch existing stuff you can git send-mail it, or something.
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  394. ralphm If we indeed want to move to an issue tracker, which was decided against last time around, we can still use Github (for setup convenience) or self hosted Gitlab or something, but that will require ongoing maintenance, and people to (want to) do that.
  395. pep. flow: when you say gitlab is it specifically the self-hosted version, or gitlab.com would do?
  396. flow pep., I am pro-self hosting
  397. ralphm I don't see a point in moving from one hosted thing to another.
  398. flow err "pro self-hosting"
  399. pep. flow: me too generally.
  400. ralphm I like pro-self hosting, too. I call that my website.
  401. pep. ralphm: it depends. It's pretty subjective but I trust gitlab folks more than github. For one they're not entirely being hypocrites promoting free software and not using it themselves
  402. flow I think we miss a big opportunity by not providing source.xmpp.org and discuss.xmpp.org
  403. ralphm pep.: Yet?
  404. pep. What does that mean?
  405. pep. Ah, you mean they'll inevitably turn into github?
  406. ralphm Maybe
  407. pep. Sure. It's a for profit model after all.
  408. ralphm I don't know either of them personally and companies change
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  412. pep. I wouldn't mind pairing with another foundation if that's a thing, tbh
  413. moparisthebest you might want to look at https://gitea.io/ before gitlab
  414. pep. For the infra
  415. pep. moparisthebest: yeah I had that in mind
  416. moparisthebest for self hosting anyway
  417. pep. Gitlab is a beast
  418. moparisthebest yea... it really is
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  421. pep. I had to maintain one until not so long ago
  422. flow not saying that we could not look into alternatives, but gitlab has the most traction,
  423. flow and that is usually the crucial point if you are going long term
  424. ralphm This
  425. pep. I don't think gitlab is a key element tbh. I also do prefer self-host, but gitlab really is a monster.
  426. moparisthebest on the other hand, I think gitlab has a trello clone thing built in, so you could ditch trello too
  427. pep. Aaaannd we need people to support it anyway, so I suggest we leave the discussion here :p
  428. ralphm pep.: if you mean in that has many moving parts, sure. But it is relatively straight-forward to setup and manage, as they have this omnipackage.
  429. moparisthebest but as far as "how easy it is to host/maintain" and "how many resources it requires" gitea wins easily over gitlab, if those aren't your concerns, then choose based on something else
  430. ralphm pep.: exactly
  431. pep. ralphm: the omni thing is going away aiui
  432. Zash issue-tracker! hgweb! ... clone the prosody.im setup!! 😀
  433. ralphm moparisthebest: I'm not familiar with gitea (at all)
  434. ralphm pep.: hm, well, if they then switch to proper .debs, that works, too
  435. Zash Gitea seems fine. Annoys me less than Gitlab. But what was the problem being solved again?
  436. pep. ralphm: You mean the usual outdated .deb? With runners that are also a few years old? :)
  437. ralphm Zash: someone suggested wanting tickets
  438. moparisthebest gitea is a single static go binary, you run it, you *can* point it at a database or just use sqlite, that's it
  439. ralphm pep.: I don't know, many teams seem capable of having PPAs
  440. pep. Debian runs their infra on gitlab, but when I was maintaining it, they weren't updating the package, they were using upstream directly from what I understand
  441. Zash The issue was with ml threads like "should we change x?" - "yes" ... (nothing happens)
  442. Zash I think?
  443. ralphm Zash: yes, episode n+1
  444. ralphm Also, last time we actually said no, I believe
  445. pep. One thing I'd like to have is a proper search feature for our MLs, then probably the discourse song would fade a bit
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  448. flow pep., searching is not a problem. But I really want to tag threads
  449. ralphm pep.: I agree that would be nice. I just seem to not delete any mail from my XMPP related mailing list folders.
  450. ralphm I don't know what 'tagging threads' means.
  451. pep. ralphm: sure, and that requires you to be on-list when the email is sent
  452. flow imagine tags like 'stream-management' which would show you all threads about xep198
  453. pep. People joining in later can't do that
  454. ralphm pep.: or download the mbox file
  455. pep. Haha
  456. pep. Nice ux
  457. Zash That would be nice
  458. Zash IIRC there's somewhere you can connect via IMAP and get read-only access to all IETF mailing list archives
  459. pep. Nice
  460. Zash The MUA I tried it with did not handle it well
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  462. ralphm This should work: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/private/summit.mbox/summit.mbox
  463. pep. flow: I agree that would be nice. Though generally it's already been done, people out a xep number in the subject and it works fine
  464. pep. (Or whatever other keywords)
  465. flow "…works fine" ← how do you know that?
  466. pep. Because I also search in there fairly often
  467. flow but how you do know that you get all threads?
  468. moparisthebest council vote emails don't have XEP numbers in subjects, just as one example
  469. pep. flow: who knows.. How do you know it works anyway..
  470. pep. moparisthebest: I can search through that as well. Xep/features are generally mentioned in the body at least
  471. Douglas Terabyte has left
  472. pep. Anyway.. It's far from perfect, but it works
  473. moparisthebest for some definition of works
  474. moparisthebest what do we need XMPP for? we can just send text to each other over telnet, it works
  475. ralphm Heh, standards.mbox is only 36377 messages, 192MB
  476. ralphm Going back all the way to July 2001.
  477. pep. moparisthebest: heh, you're also in the discourse camp?
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  479. moparisthebest not necesarily, more like "downloading giant .mbox and figuring out how to use it seems like a poor way" camp haha, discourse is nice though
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  481. moparisthebest https://ponymail.incubator.apache.org/ could be an option, I've used it here before https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@poi.apache.org
  482. ralphm moparisthebest: disappointing :/
  483. moparisthebest https://duckduckgo.com/?q=xep198+xep-198+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fmail.jabber.org%2Fpipermail%2Fstandards%2F that doesn't work very well
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  486. ralphm I've briefly considered migrating to Mailman 3, but it will break the archives, or you have to keep the old archive around or somesuch. http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html
  487. moparisthebest and https://www.google.com/search?q=xep198%20xep-198%20site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fmail.jabber.org%2Fpipermail%2Fstandards%2F only has 3 results
  488. pep. ralphm: that would be nice. We can certainly keep static archives alongside
  489. ralphm The are a bunch of other caveats listed there. I'm scared a bit.
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  503. Ge0rG What about having a mirror of the archive with some other, more modern web frontend? Or nicely ask the gmane folks
  504. ralphm Ge0rG: oh, you mean Mailman 3?
  505. Ge0rG ralphm: whatever can be installed alongside the current mailman
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  509. ralphm I'm not there's a lot of that. The problem is that Mailman 2, which we are currently running, just like probably 99% of all mailing lists, has been in maintenance mode for years, and nobody actually seems to be focussed on it anymore. Somebody would have to do the research on this, but it doesn't sound trivial. Additionally, Mailman 2 is written in Python 2, which is EOL at the end of the year.
  510. Ge0rG In years, or in decades?
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  514. Zash Where are Mailman 3 sources hosted?
  515. Zash https://code.launchpad.net/mailman seems to suggest that Mailman 2 had commits a few weeks ago and Mailman 3 hasn't been touched in years.
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  524. Ge0rG Reminds me of the xmpp client list activity.
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  527. ralphm Zash: https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
  528. Zash Oh of course
  529. ralphm I wasn't aware somebody's actually still doing stuff on 2.1, but I don't think those are big things
  530. ralphm https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/changes/1819?start_revid=1819
  531. Zash Ah, the mailman 3 link in the menu does link to gitlab
  532. ralphm Basically https://wiki.list.org/msapiro has been doing this on his own since 2008.
  533. ralphm https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2019-April/084332.html
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  538. ralphm (also note that that particular list is still on 2.1 :-) )
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  541. Zash > There are already 73 Mailman 3 lists @python.org (there are still 313 MM 2.1 lists).
  542. Zash Woah
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  544. ralphm I am running Mailman myself for a couple of lists, and may attempt to migrate some.
  545. ralphm I was surprised how small the standards@ mbox file is.
  546. ralphm First snag: apparently Ubuntu packages only became available starting with 18.04, so I have to do quite some yak shaving.
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  560. Ge0rG Get away from my yak!
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  562. Zash Training for the 2020 Yak shaving world cup starts now!
  563. Ge0rG The mailman always rings twice!
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  565. Ge0rG So I've been looking at yaxim every three minutes like a lab rat pushing the reward button, and then I realized that sending CSI is a GDPR issue
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  591. moparisthebest Don't you just spin up another docker container in 2019
  592. Zash Hush now
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