eevvoorperhaps a dinner with one of the berlin xmpp guys? ;)
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linkmauveeevvoor, sure!
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GuusPEP defines that a service must support the 'owner' and 'subscriber' affiliations. 0060 doesn't define an affiliation named 'subscriber'. How should I read that?
MattJIf you read it in a certain way, I said I'd submit a PR
ZashDid you?
Guusit wasn't removed, because I just found the same thing 🙂
MattJI don't recall submitting a PR
MattJBut the rules clearly state that now Guus has found it, it's his responsibility
Guusah, yes.
Guusthe infamous 'touched it last' rule
Guusthere's something to be said for requiring a affiliation that grants the subscribe privilege though
Guusgotta feed the offsping - ttyl
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MattJGuus, yes, maybe, perhaps - but it's controlled by the access_model
MattJSo as far as design goes, there would be the choice between modelling "entity may subscribe" as either a new affiliation, or as a property of the node
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flowIt really would be nice if we had an tracker for such issues (and ideally not github)
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ralphmI'm fairly sure there never was a subscriber affiliation.
ralphmflow: agreed. Maybe we should look into hosting a Gitlab instance, but first things first. MattJ is still making an inventory for iteam, and then they can define what to do next, and ask for help if needed.
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Ge0rGwhat would be the principal difference between github and gitlab?
jonas’one is self hosted
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jonas’gitlab requires some serious amount of resources though
ZashWrite them down in the wiki?
MattJYeah, I'd be a -1 to self-hosting anything, for now at least
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MattJWe *had* a self-hosted tracker in the past, fwiw
Ge0rGjonas’: besides of the obvious hosting question, what's the _principal_ difference?
Ge0rGBoth provide an issue tracker, so if we need an issue tracker, why not make use of our XSF github?
Ge0rGIf we need something different from an issue tracker, why use gitlab?
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pep.Ge0rG: free software/not. The feature set is more or less similar tbh. Gitlab seems to be a lot more open to big projects out there though
Zashcries over Github account being mandatory
jonas’pep., gitlab isn’t free software once you have an edition which doesn’t suck ;)
pep.Gitlab's email handling is pretty cool nowadays, (I rarely need to open the browser), bit that's not something github is incapable of doing.
ZashWhat were the requirements again?
pep.jonas’: what features do you require for it not to suck?
ZashWhat problem are we solving?
jonas’properly cross-referencing issues
jonas’you can link issues, but they don’t show up as related. you need something beyond CE for that
pep.Zash: no idea. Somebody asked questions about github and gitlab
jonas’(don’t confuse this with the feature of related merge requests, which *is* in CE)
Ge0rGI don't understand how "it's not github" is a relevant feature request, considering the state of our infra.
pep.jonas’: yeah I get it
pep.jonas’: it's not impossible that if a big project whines a bit to gitlab they backport it to CE :p
pep.flow: what did you have in mind?
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ZashI don't want "not github", I want "not requiring an account with a single vendor"
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Ge0rGZash: you can login to github with your gmail! 😁
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AlexMemberbot is still online until our member meeting tomorrow. In case you have not voted yet ;-)
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Ge0rGAlex: 👍
Zash!
Ge0rGAnd Link Mauve has reapplied!
pep.But he hasn't voted yet and his server is down. And mom-support doesn't know how to bring it back up :p
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AlexI accept votes also be Email
pep.His email server is at the same place :p
pep.Anyway, that's his issue to solve. He can contact you if he needs to
pep.He's got jabberfr temporarily
Ge0rGpep.: but how do we know it's actually him?
pep.I was with him until yesterday
pep.Or the day before
pep.How do you know, I don't know
pep.I was actually going to ask if that was something board and council made sure of at every session :p
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Ge0rGOn some days I don't know whether it's me or not
pep.If council members can see jids in the room for example
Ge0rGpep.: there are questions that must not be asked
pep.He he he
ZashProsody supports nickname reservations, so that could be used
ralphmI suppose our voting shots are long enough to cover issues like this. One should vote as early as one can. And missing one vote is not a disaster.
ralphmSlots
pep.ralphm: agreed
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ZashBut, people.
flowpep., gitlab and discourse
pep.Discourse is no issue tracker though. It's a forum? A place you can have discussions that are stored and that you can search through. We have the mailing lists for that
ralphmWell, it is up to Alex to make a determination. And some things don't have to be solved by technology.
flowpep., right, it's a forum and, depending on how you look at it, a mailing list
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ralphmOn GitHub, we choose that for convenience and you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
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ralphmPrimarily discussions are on our mailinglists, some here. If you want to provide new stuff or patch existing stuff you can git send-mail it, or something.
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ralphmIf we indeed want to move to an issue tracker, which was decided against last time around, we can still use Github (for setup convenience) or self hosted Gitlab or something, but that will require ongoing maintenance, and people to (want to) do that.
pep.flow: when you say gitlab is it specifically the self-hosted version, or gitlab.com would do?
flowpep., I am pro-self hosting
ralphmI don't see a point in moving from one hosted thing to another.
flowerr "pro self-hosting"
pep.flow: me too generally.
ralphmI like pro-self hosting, too. I call that my website.
pep.ralphm: it depends. It's pretty subjective but I trust gitlab folks more than github. For one they're not entirely being hypocrites promoting free software and not using it themselves
flowI think we miss a big opportunity by not providing source.xmpp.org and discuss.xmpp.org
ralphmpep.: Yet?
pep.What does that mean?
pep.Ah, you mean they'll inevitably turn into github?
ralphmMaybe
pep.Sure. It's a for profit model after all.
ralphmI don't know either of them personally and companies change
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pep.I wouldn't mind pairing with another foundation if that's a thing, tbh
moparisthebestyou might want to look at https://gitea.io/ before gitlab
pep.For the infra
pep.moparisthebest: yeah I had that in mind
moparisthebestfor self hosting anyway
pep.Gitlab is a beast
moparisthebestyea... it really is
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pep.I had to maintain one until not so long ago
flownot saying that we could not look into alternatives, but gitlab has the most traction,
flowand that is usually the crucial point if you are going long term
ralphmThis
pep.I don't think gitlab is a key element tbh. I also do prefer self-host, but gitlab really is a monster.
moparisthebeston the other hand, I think gitlab has a trello clone thing built in, so you could ditch trello too
pep.Aaaannd we need people to support it anyway, so I suggest we leave the discussion here :p
ralphmpep.: if you mean in that has many moving parts, sure. But it is relatively straight-forward to setup and manage, as they have this omnipackage.
moparisthebestbut as far as "how easy it is to host/maintain" and "how many resources it requires" gitea wins easily over gitlab, if those aren't your concerns, then choose based on something else
ralphmpep.: exactly
pep.ralphm: the omni thing is going away aiui
Zashissue-tracker! hgweb! ... clone the prosody.im setup!! 😀
ralphmmoparisthebest: I'm not familiar with gitea (at all)
ralphmpep.: hm, well, if they then switch to proper .debs, that works, too
ZashGitea seems fine. Annoys me less than Gitlab. But what was the problem being solved again?
pep.ralphm: You mean the usual outdated .deb? With runners that are also a few years old? :)
ralphmZash: someone suggested wanting tickets
moparisthebestgitea is a single static go binary, you run it, you *can* point it at a database or just use sqlite, that's it
ralphmpep.: I don't know, many teams seem capable of having PPAs
pep.Debian runs their infra on gitlab, but when I was maintaining it, they weren't updating the package, they were using upstream directly from what I understand
ZashThe issue was with ml threads like "should we change x?" - "yes" ... (nothing happens)
ZashI think?
ralphmZash: yes, episode n+1
ralphmAlso, last time we actually said no, I believe
pep.One thing I'd like to have is a proper search feature for our MLs, then probably the discourse song would fade a bit
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flowpep., searching is not a problem. But I really want to tag threads
ralphmpep.: I agree that would be nice. I just seem to not delete any mail from my XMPP related mailing list folders.
ralphmI don't know what 'tagging threads' means.
pep.ralphm: sure, and that requires you to be on-list when the email is sent
flowimagine tags like 'stream-management' which would show you all threads about xep198
pep.People joining in later can't do that
ralphmpep.: or download the mbox file
pep.Haha
pep.Nice ux
ZashThat would be nice
ZashIIRC there's somewhere you can connect via IMAP and get read-only access to all IETF mailing list archives
pep.Nice
ZashThe MUA I tried it with did not handle it well
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ralphmThis should work: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/private/summit.mbox/summit.mbox
pep.flow: I agree that would be nice. Though generally it's already been done, people out a xep number in the subject and it works fine
pep.(Or whatever other keywords)
flow"…works fine" ← how do you know that?
pep.Because I also search in there fairly often
flowbut how you do know that you get all threads?
moparisthebestcouncil vote emails don't have XEP numbers in subjects, just as one example
pep.flow: who knows.. How do you know it works anyway..
pep.moparisthebest: I can search through that as well. Xep/features are generally mentioned in the body at least
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pep.Anyway.. It's far from perfect, but it works
moparisthebestfor some definition of works
moparisthebestwhat do we need XMPP for? we can just send text to each other over telnet, it works
ralphmHeh, standards.mbox is only 36377 messages, 192MB
ralphmGoing back all the way to July 2001.
pep.moparisthebest: heh, you're also in the discourse camp?
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moparisthebestnot necesarily, more like "downloading giant .mbox and figuring out how to use it seems like a poor way" camp haha, discourse is nice though
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moparisthebesthttps://ponymail.incubator.apache.org/ could be an option, I've used it here before https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@poi.apache.org
ralphmmoparisthebest: disappointing :/
moparisthebesthttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=xep198+xep-198+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fmail.jabber.org%2Fpipermail%2Fstandards%2F that doesn't work very well
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ralphmI've briefly considered migrating to Mailman 3, but it will break the archives, or you have to keep the old archive around or somesuch. http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html
moparisthebestand https://www.google.com/search?q=xep198%20xep-198%20site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fmail.jabber.org%2Fpipermail%2Fstandards%2F only has 3 results
pep.ralphm: that would be nice. We can certainly keep static archives alongside
ralphmThe are a bunch of other caveats listed there. I'm scared a bit.
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Ge0rGWhat about having a mirror of the archive with some other, more modern web frontend? Or nicely ask the gmane folks
ralphmGe0rG: oh, you mean Mailman 3?
Ge0rGralphm: whatever can be installed alongside the current mailman
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ralphmI'm not there's a lot of that. The problem is that Mailman 2, which we are currently running, just like probably 99% of all mailing lists, has been in maintenance mode for years, and nobody actually seems to be focussed on it anymore. Somebody would have to do the research on this, but it doesn't sound trivial. Additionally, Mailman 2 is written in Python 2, which is EOL at the end of the year.
Ge0rGIn years, or in decades?
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ZashWhere are Mailman 3 sources hosted?
Zashhttps://code.launchpad.net/mailman seems to suggest that Mailman 2 had commits a few weeks ago and Mailman 3 hasn't been touched in years.
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Ge0rGReminds me of the xmpp client list activity.
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ralphmZash: https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
ZashOh of course
ralphmI wasn't aware somebody's actually still doing stuff on 2.1, but I don't think those are big things
XSF Discussion - 2019-08-28