XSF Discussion - 2019-09-06

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  156. Neustradamus Where is the up-to-date memberbot source code?
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  188. pep. Neustradamus, https://github.com/legastero/memberbot/network/members I think
  189. pep. Ah wait, it says archived
  190. pep. Link Mauve has a few patches on top, but it's the only fork apparently so..
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  196. ralphm Hmm, maybe ask Lance when he wakes
  197. ralphm We could have him move it to our org
  198. ralphm Leaving forks intact
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  203. Neustradamus Because there is a problem (I have auto capitalize the first letter of sentence in my client) and when we click on "yes" it is Yes, it does not work. There is no problem for "no" it is no.
  204. Seve Ah yeah, it only allows "Yes" as "Yes" haha :D
  205. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.xml !
  206. Neustradamus And this bug is not new.
  207. Ge0rG This is a bottomless pit. First you want "Yes", then you want "YES", then you want "true", then you want "1"...
  208. Ge0rG In the end, you end up with a YAML parser that interprets your answer as a sexagesimal number.
  209. Guus Yes!
  210. Zash "si", "ja", "SIR YES SIR!"
  211. Guus I mean: yes!
  212. Kev Ydw.
  213. ralphm The age of an issue is not really relevant.
  214. Guus (but not having it case-sensitive would be a welcome improvement)
  215. Guus > "si", "ja", "SIR YES SIR!" Spanish, German/Dutch, American?
  216. Ge0rG Guus: xml:lang?
  217. ralphm 👍👎
  218. linkmauve Thankfully Yes! will get interpreted as 1! which as everyone knows is equal to 1.
  219. Zash Motivate me or someone to fix up the buttons XEP
  220. Zash The return of the revenge of the unintended factorial!
  221. Ge0rG Zash: data forms!
  222. linkmauve Ad-hoc commands!
  223. ralphm pubsub
  224. Zash all of the above, plus jingle!
  225. Guus Donkey!
  226. Seve omg
  227. Zash dataform in ad-hoc command over p2p-xmpp offered via jingle session in pep
  228. Seve Now I'm listening
  229. pep. Ge0rG, will you also allow me to have: はい, ええ, えー, いいえ, いえ, いいや, いや ? :P
  230. pep. or Guus ^ (dunno who was talking about it)
  231. Guus Blamimng Ge0rG for all of this works for me.
  232. Ge0rG "Say yes or no. Please pronounce it clearly, our speech analysis sucks."
  233. ralphm Also XEP-0132.
  234. linkmauve pep., with context dependent answer to actually pick no when you say はい to a negative question.
  235. pep. linkmauve, of course
  236. pep. That's what I expect from locale handling
  237. Ge0rG wasn't there a language where "no" actually means yes?
  238. Ge0rG Uh-oh, I hope I'm not triggering an army of SJWs now.
  239. linkmauve Ge0rG, that was the essence of my joke. :p
  240. Guus Polish, according to my Google-foo.
  241. pep. In Japanese you answer positively (Yes) to a negative question if you agree with the negation
  242. pep. But it's not just them, I actually also do that in french and english nowadays :x
  243. Ge0rG linkmauve: but I don't understand Japanese.
  244. linkmauve Ah, too bad.
  245. linkmauve pep., oh no.
  246. ralphm pep.: I do that a lot
  247. Ge0rG In German you have "ja", "nein" and "doch". When asked a negated question, you use the latter two
  248. pep. Ge0rG, yeah there's also « si » in french
  249. pep. ("doch" equivalent I guess)
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  251. Ge0rG language is complicated. Let's go fishing.
  252. linkmauve Great, I now have a Pod which can do fishing.
  253. linkmauve It costed me 5000G and takes [3] space in memory.
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  256. Guus Hey, this is interesting. We had someone trying to send s2s spam over a server using anonymous logins (we disallow s2s traffic for anonymous sessions). Now the intended recipient (that would not have received anything) is replying back with StopSpam Question subject messages containing a simple math problem.
  257. Ge0rG Guus: how does the recipient know?
  258. Guus exactly.
  259. Ge0rG maybe your s2s blocker is faulty?
  260. Ge0rG is the intended recipient on your own server?
  261. Guus Pretty sure it's not - I'm guessing that the recipient expected the spam to arrive, didn't, and is trying to make it come through with sending questions to de-block data.
  262. Guus which suggests recipient and sender are the same party.
  263. Guus no, they're on xmpp.jp.
  264. Zash Intelesting
  265. Ge0rG Guus: I'm pretty sure this is not how the StopSpam thing works.
  266. Ge0rG Guus: maybe it reacts to presence, not to messages, and your s2s blocker only blocks the latter?
  267. Guus Can't rule out a bug
  268. Guus but it should
  269. Guus feel free to give it a test on igniterealtime.org
  270. Ge0rG Guus: is that the anon domain?
  271. Ge0rG I don't even know how to login to an anon domain
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  273. Guus Ge0rG yes - Smack supports it, afaik
  274. Daniel So does Conversations
  275. Daniel Enter a random local part
  276. Guus it's a SASL mechanism
  277. Ge0rG Yay, let's crash yaxim!
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  280. Guus Thanks for the minutes, Daniel
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  282. Ge0rG Hm. It won't let me in.
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  284. Ge0rG Because I try SCRAM-SHA1, which is advertised, and which obviously fails
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  287. Ge0rG Daniel: doesn't work with Conversations either :(
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  290. Daniel yes because of the same reason
  291. Ge0rG Guus: your server is broken :P
  292. Guus ohboy
  293. Guus the _spammers_ can get in... 😉
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  297. Daniel i wonder if i should make it work with anon available && password.isEmpty()
  298. Daniel or something
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  304. Guus Georg, what exactly happens?
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  307. Guus wait, you guys expect anonymous to be the only SASL mechanism that's offered?
  308. Ge0rG Daniel: that would be the obvious hack
  309. Zash Things seem easier if anonymous users are namespaced onto another virtualhost
  310. Ge0rG Guus: Smack's highly complicated pluggable SASL mechanisms plug mechanism uses SCRAM-SHA1
  311. Ge0rG SCRAM-SHA1 fails
  312. Daniel > Things seem easier if anonymous users are namespaced onto another virtualhost Yes. Thats what I tested Conversations with
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  314. Guus I think in Smack you explicitly tell 'anonymous' somehow
  315. Guus Ge0rG org.jivesoftware.smack.ConnectionConfiguration.Builder#performSaslAnonymousAuthentication
  316. Guus Unsure how the server could help you here.
  317. Zash Guus: Historical thing due to how Openfire didn't have virtual host support in the past?
  318. Guus Openfire does not and will not have virtual host support.
  319. Guus wait to complicated to put that in the existing code base. doesn't outweigh simply running two servers.
  320. Guus way to complicated to put that in the existing code base. doesn't outweigh simply running two servers.
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  322. Ge0rG java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Client State Indication not supported by server
  323. Ge0rG Sigh.
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  326. Ge0rG why is that even mandatory in the code?
  327. Guus CSI - the spec that doesn't have any sensible spec compliant benefits, right?
  328. Guus I think I've a plugin somewhere that will advertise the feature...
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  332. Ge0rG Oh, it is not supposed to throw that kind of exception. This was only meant to ensure that the client is connected to the server.
  333. Ge0rG Guus: it would be great if messages got bounced back.
  334. Guus kindly elaborate
  335. Ge0rG Guus: if I send a message, and your server forbids the delivery of that message, it should reply with a message error
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  337. Ge0rG But it doesn't look like an anon client is able to send messages or presence to yax.im
  338. Guus hmm, I'm guessing we didn't do that because we didn't want to make spammers wiser
  339. Guus which might be overkill
  340. Ge0rG Guus: you are also breaking things for users.
  341. Guus also, I'm not ruling out that this goes wrong in other places
  342. Ge0rG Guus: same thing with presence.
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  345. Ge0rG But at least anon is breaking surprisingly few things.
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  348. Guus hmm, you're onto something. The stanza bouncing rules are somewhat awkward.
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  350. Ge0rG SENT: <iq id='1dfTY-60' type='set'><query xmlns='jabber:iq:roster'><item jid='georg@yax.im' name='Georg' subscription='none'></item></query></iq> RECV: <iq type="error" id="1dfTY-60" to="1qr03gr14@igniterealtime.org/1qr03gr14"> <query xmlns="jabber:iq:roster"><item jid="georg@yax.im" name="Georg" subscription="none"/></query> <error code="500" type="wait"><internal-server-error xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/></error> </iq>
  351. Ge0rG Guus: you might also want to fix that: wait/internal-server-error is definitively the wrong response
  352. Guus hehe
  353. Guus this is just "omgwedidntanticipatethis"
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  355. Guus oh, there's actually an attempt in the code to cause an 'unauthorized'
  356. Guus but that doesn't get processed properly
  357. Ge0rG here's another one!
  358. Ge0rG SENT: <presence to='openfire@conference.igniterealtime.org/Ge0rG' id='1dfTY-94' type='unavailable'></presence> RECV: <presence to="1qr03gr14@igniterealtime.org/1qr03gr14" id="1dfTY-94" type="error" from="openfire@conference.igniterealtime.org/Ge0rG"><error code="400" type="wait"><unexpected-request xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/></error></presence>
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  360. Guus getting a roster in an anonymous session, would 'not-authorized' be a suitable response?
  361. Guus technically, SASL happened...
  362. Guus not-allowed is documented to apply to _any entity_
  363. Guus not-acceptable?
  364. Guus service-unavailable?
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  370. Ge0rG problems found in yaxim: 2 problems found in openfire: 3(?)
  371. Chobbes has left
  372. Guus One down: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Openfire/pull/1472
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  376. Ge0rG I still can't join the MUC, but it seems to be a yaxim bug
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  379. Guus openfire@ is a private muc, I think. Try open_chat
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  382. Neustradamus Guus: Smack has SCRAM-SHA-1 and SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS? https://issues.igniterealtime.org/browse/SMACK-749
  383. Ge0rG Guus: if it's a private MUC, why did I get one message from it?
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  385. Neustradamus Ignite Realtime products are not in the good category? -> https://github.com/scram-xmpp/info/issues/1
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  388. Guus Neustradamus I would appreciate it if you stop following me around with the same question.
  389. Guus Ge0rG I'm unsure if it's private, or simply unlisted, or something else - it's not the regular room that I thought you ment to use, which would be open_chat
  390. Neustradamus I do a search and I have found: https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/saslerror-using-scram-sha-1-malformed-request/73391 and the ticket
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  395. Ge0rG Guus: it was listed in disco#items
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  398. Ge0rG Guus: looks like the room isn't sending a subject.
  399. Ge0rG Guus: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#order
  400. Guus Ge0rG any pointers to the proper handling of undeliverable presence stanzas?
  401. Guus Openfire is dropping all of them silently
  402. Ge0rG Guus: send back... a presence error!
  403. Guus probably not always
  404. Ge0rG not on unavailable, I'd assume
  405. Ge0rG I'm not an expert in that field, sorry
  406. Guus Quickly scanning the RFC gives me more than that'd be a quick fix
  407. Ge0rG > After the room has optionally sent the discussion history to the new occupant, it SHALL send the current room subject. On some days, I hate XEP-0045
  408. Kev We'd bounce a stanza when it can't be delivered unless it's type=error or type=result.
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  410. Ge0rG Wait, SHALL is a synonym to MUST. That makes my hate disappear.
  411. Ge0rG Guus: look, you are violating XEP-0045 there :D
  412. Ge0rG Kev: why don't you bounce type=result?
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  414. Zash Relatedly, what do you do if you recieve a malformed error stanza?
  415. Kev Because you never reply to a result?
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  417. Zash Yell "garbage in, garbage out!" and deliver it?
  418. Ge0rG Zash: define "malformed"
  419. Zash Actually, the issue I'm thinking of is with a malformed iq-reply, a disco#info response where all the <features> went into the top level stanza and the actual <{disco#info>query> payload is missing.
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  421. Zash Thus, having more than 2 direct child tags, which is forbidden
  422. Zash Actually, type=reply can't have more than 1, but still
  423. lovetox Ge0rG, if you just discovered that, and now implement that you are only really joined if you receive the subject
  424. lovetox prepare for older ejabberd server that dont send empty subjects :)
  425. lovetox and in fact prosody didnt do this also once
  426. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  427. lovetox if you want to test old ejabberds jabber.ru is a good testing ground :)
  428. Ge0rG lovetox: I remember those issues, yeah. How do you "complete" a join then? On self-presence?
  429. Ge0rG Are there still servers that don't add 110?
  430. lovetox no a join is complete if you receive a subject
  431. lovetox i put a timer, when i receive self presence
  432. lovetox means joins on not compliant servers need longer, but not really my problem, they can upgrade their software
  433. pep. yeah because then you can't distinguish between muc history and normal delayed messages
  434. lovetox correctly !
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  436. lovetox correct !
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  438. lovetox and this is for another reason important
  439. lovetox servers dont validate delay timestamps on groupchat messages
  440. lovetox and if i receive a message with a timestamp by attr = muc jid that means i respect that timestamp as the true timestamp
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  442. lovetox if i receive a message with a timestamp not set by the server, i save both timestamps, the one i received and one that is potentially set by a user
  443. lovetox and because servers dont validate the by attr in delay timestamps
  444. lovetox you cant just simply parse the by attr
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  446. pep. Do you btw invert the trust model once you start seeing e2ee? :P
  447. lovetox you need the subject to determine if its a muc history message
  448. lovetox pep., what does that mean "invert the trust model"
  449. pep. Well here you rely on the server doing "the right thing" and users potentially being evil, from what I understand
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  451. lovetox yes
  452. lovetox i dont see how that changes with e2e
  453. pep. In the e2ee world, people don't trust their server (otherwise there's little point)
  454. lovetox they trust the server with everything but keeping message content private
  455. pep. So in their view, I guess, the server would be the evil actor and they're be the ones to do the right thing
  456. pep. *they'd
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  459. Guus > After the room has optionally sent the discussion history to the new occupant, it SHALL send the current room subject.
  460. Guus Ge0rG that doesn't say that a room MUST have a subject?
  461. pep. It can be empty
  462. lovetox yes Guus you should send a empty subject
  463. pep. But it must be
  464. Guus srsly/
  465. lovetox yes otherwise how do we differentiate between muc history and live messages?
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  468. pep. <delay/> only happens in MUC history right? :P
  469. lovetox that you have in your implementation NULL for subject and consider this "not empty", i think is not really the point of the xep
  470. Zash Next up: Clients are technically allowed to send messages with subjects that are not the room subject, iff they also include a body.
  471. lovetox pep., delay happens when a client adds it
  472. pep. lovetox, that was a joke
  473. lovetox :)
  474. Ge0rG pep.: it was a very evil joke
  475. lovetox Zash, yeah also a good point, Gajim should interpret this correctly :)
  476. pep. Ge0rG, I guess that's what the XEP authors thought?
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  478. pep. Or predicted, rather
  479. Ge0rG somebody remind me to send a PR to fix that place of the XEP
  480. pep. Ge0rG, That's also how poezio works anyway.. Remember that obnoxious grey color?
  481. Chobbes has joined
  482. Zash grey?
  483. pdurbin has left
  484. pep. Zash, this.
  485. Daniel has left
  486. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/DW2VdqYztEtF6KJ9/this.png
  487. pep. on poezio
  488. pep. https://ppjet.bouah.net/poezio-grey.png
  489. Zash Never seen that before
  490. pep. This comes from the fact that <delay/> is only used in MUC history (right?). Also why poezio doesn't do highlights when <delay/> is present
  491. pep. what?
  492. pep. Have you never noticed people enabling mod_delay for no reason and poezio becoming unreadable?
  493. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/L3qjPKnmAFR5iyoR/not-grey.png
  494. Ge0rG it's dark magenta on black in my theme
  495. Ge0rG and it suppresses highlights, which is evil.
  496. pep. :)
  497. Ge0rG What I says seems largely redundant.
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  500. pep. It is indeed (evil). https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/L3qjPKnmAFR5iyoR/not-grey.png if somebody wants to tackle the issue
  501. pep. fail.
  502. pep. https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3142 this
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  505. Ge0rG > Opened 3 years ago by ge0rg
  506. Ge0rG Everything old is new again.
  507. pep. What is dead may never die
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  510. Guus third PR gone into Openfire. Tx Ge0rG
  511. Ge0rG Guus: thanks!
  512. Guus Don't thank me yet: these were shot from the hip.
  513. Ge0rG Guus: deploy to igniterealtime, see what happens
  514. Ge0rG friday afternoon is the best time for that
  515. Guus Yeah, maybe
  516. Guus I should get back to work first 🙂
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  524. Daniel Is fasten going to be used for the full qoute / reference use case?
  525. pep. Daniel, might even be called "Attach" in the end! See standards@
  526. Ge0rG 🙈🙉🙊
  527. pep. And yes
  528. pep. Or is reference going to be used for mentions etc. still?
  529. Guus Are we intentionally sending out repeated newsletter tweets? It is starting to get annoying.
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  531. Daniel can we get an example in the XEP (for quoteing a message)
  532. Daniel Guus, that annoys me to
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  534. Daniel not that i wouldn’t know how. it's just that i want it explicit that this xep is meant for that
  535. Guus nyco are you triggering these? Maybe cut down on the frequency?
  536. Ge0rG Guus: the worst thing is that the tweets lack actual content
  537. Ge0rG they look like a badly trained AI. Sorry.
  538. Ge0rG or maybe an attempt at SEO
  539. Zash Like the rest of Twitter? </troll>
  540. Daniel so references and old attaching are going to be obsoleted?
  541. jonas’ Daniel, I don’t think so
  542. jonas’ AAUI, Kev intends to rebase/adapt References to Fastening
  543. jonas’ or revamp it at least
  544. jonas’ Fastening and References serve different use-cases
  545. Kev References gets updated to use fastening once fastening's published, and the idea is that old attaching goes away, yes.
  546. Daniel and isn’t quoting referse fasting? if you consider the MAM playout you want the original message with the quote and not the quotes for the original message
  547. Daniel or maybe you want the later
  548. Daniel or maybe both
  549. jonas’ Kev, humm, isn’t fastening supposed to be 1:N, i.e. a message can be fastened to at most one other message, but a message can have multiple messages fastened to it?
  550. jonas’ how would that work with multiple mentions, for example?
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  553. Ge0rG fasten your references!
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  557. Daniel fwiw it is completely not obvious from reading the current XEP that this can (even remotely) be used for quoteing
  558. Daniel > that adds additional information to the context of a previous message. i'm really not sure that quoteing falls under that category
  559. ralphm jonas’: yes 1:N
  560. ralphm I don't think that quoting is a good use case for this. You might use references instead.
  561. ralphm I'll try to 'complete' my blog post with many examples this weekend.
  562. ralphm Including renderings
  563. ralphm (of fasten, references, and combinations thereof)
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  566. Daniel ok. i’ll just wait then. because right now i can’t picture any of this
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  595. Ge0rG Guus, pep.: I've been really blind regarding the no-subject-set thing. It's actually right there, in your face, in Example 42: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-42
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  598. jonas’ relevant: https://issues.prosody.im/1053
  599. Guus > Guus, pep.: I've been really blind regarding the no-subject-set thing. It's actually right there, in your face, in Example 42: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-42 I've seen that. I think Daryl just merged my PR that adds that.
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  602. Zash While we're on the topic of Openfire bugs here, what's up with sending `</stream:stream>` unencrypted at the end of TLS connections?
  603. Guus Hah
  604. Guus I fixed that earlier this week
  605. Guus At least during dialback
  606. Zash Heh, that explains why I just saw that just now.
  607. Guus Should not happen anymore on IgniteRealtime.org, if you care to test
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  610. Zash Gotta be properly capitalized too? :)
  611. Guus No, that's autocorrect on my phone
  612. Guus > Heh, that explains why I just saw that just now. The problem has always been there, the fix is recent.
  613. Guus If you only saw a problem recently, then my fix made things unexpectedly worse...
  614. Zash I think I've pointed it out in the past
  615. Guus Kk
  616. Guus Fyi, my current status:
  617. Zash Looks fixed indeed, normal "closed" message
  618. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/8ad21367-2b15-45d2-8079-670a386067aa/cCutz7hVTKSzxHAk9GyhZA.jpg
  619. Zash Good idea!
  620. Guus > Looks fixed indeed, normal "closed" message Good, tx
  621. Guus One of the benefits of having kids: making pancakes and pretending you do _them_ a favour.
  622. Zash Level 2: Teaching them to make pancakes
  623. Guus That's a trap
  624. Guus You'll have to clean up during the time that they are in training, but suck at flipping pancakes by throwing them in the air.
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  627. Zash Cast iron.
  628. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/5801e2dc-ee1d-484c-8d4b-d23f03ffb49a/IBgfNURnQC2YLGJRBF_rVQ.jpg
  629. Guus It is
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