XSF Discussion - 2019-09-12

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  179. derdaniel

    Good morning

  180. jonas’

    good morning

  181. jonas’

    are you *the* daniel?

  182. jcbrand

    No, he's Derda Niel

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  196. jonas’

    would the XSF want to host blog posts showcasing e.g. how to configure a specific XMPP setup on xmpp.org?

  197. jonas’

    from non-XSF members

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  201. Daniel

    jonas’, maybe not 'blog post' but actually good tutorials i think are welcome

  202. Daniel

    re the discussion on the developers foundation at the last summit

  203. Ge0rG

    maybe we can just retweet them from @xmpp

  204. Daniel

    when ever i finally have a few days down time i'll actually submit such a tutorial myself

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  210. Daniel

    here is how Conversations is going to deal with the multiple translation issue from now on: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/commit/9bf5fb98acce52d49326f2f613a99f5b957f95c7

  211. Ge0rG

    Daniel: got a screenshot of the language tag?

  212. pep.

    Daniel, is there such a thing as "no language tag"? xml:lang is usually (often? always?) set on the stream

  213. Daniel


  214. Daniel

    pep., no tag means stream

  215. Daniel

    and then Conversations will show that

  216. ralphm

    I type in Dutch and English depending on which contact I'm talking to. I am Dutch, but have my phone set to English. How do you plan to handle this?

  217. pep.

    I also do type Japanese on my xml:lang="en" stream fwiw

  218. Daniel

    ralphm, it's just displaying the tag if there are multiple bodies

  219. Daniel

    so you will never see that anyway

  220. ralphm

    I mean, how do I tell my client what I am doing?

  221. pep.

    Most clients don't or badly support multiple languages anyway

  222. Daniel

    right. but Conversations will not send multiple. if you have a client that sends multiple it is the responsibilty of that client to set something sane

  223. Daniel

    i mean if you type a dutch message with Conversations it will only have one body and thus not show any tag on the receiving side

  224. ralphm

    But even if you have a single body, would you then just not have a language tag, and just have it inherit from the stream?

  225. Ge0rG

    ralphm: change the PC / mobile phone language setting before talking, reconnect to update the stream language

  226. pep.


  227. ralphm

    Ge0rG: of course

  228. jonas’

    08:50:07 Daniel> pep., no tag means stream

  229. jonas’

    Daniel, no tag means the tag on the stanza

  230. pep.

    well no tag means parent tag

  231. pep.

    and so on

  232. ralphm

    Well xml:lang is inherited as defined by the XML spec, so that part was clear to me.

  233. Daniel

    no single body will not show a tag

  234. Daniel

    that would be extremly annoying

  235. jonas’

    Daniel, overall, that sounds like a very reasonable solution

  236. Ge0rG

    It's not inherited in most xml parser implementations...

  237. ralphm

    Ge0rG: yep, it is not easy, and then there's the part where you take a stanza from a stream and send it onwards on another stream. You'd have to take the inherited xml:lang along (just as with namespaces/prefixes).

  238. Daniel

    (i'll make a note for looking into the inheritence)

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  240. Ge0rG had issues with that hairy part as well... https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/message-getbody-returns-null-if-all-bodies-have-an-xml-lang/83923

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  250. ralphm

    I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all.

  251. flow

    Daniel, inheritance applies to other things besides xml:lang too. If you are going to fix it for xml:lang, you may want to make sure that it is also done (or at least possible) for those other things. At least that is what I did in Smack

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  254. flow

    ralphm, what about e.g. pubsub notifications to a wide audience?

  255. jonas’

    flow, what are the other things?

  256. jonas’

    I only know of xml:lang

  257. pep.

    wasn't xml:space a thing?

  258. jonas’

    if that isn’t handled by the XML parser you’re screwed anyways (and I don’t think it’s inherited?)

  259. Daniel

    > I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all. As I argue in the commit message just showing the default without any warning doesn't help because you never know what legacy does out there

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  262. Daniel

    So whether or not sending this in practice is a good idea is only a secondary question. Your client will have to deal with it either way

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  264. flow

    jonas’, namespaces and prefixes

  265. jonas’

    flow, right, I assume that everyone uses an XML Namespaces compliant parser

  266. jonas’

    if you don’t, you’re screwed anyways

  267. jonas’

    if you don’t, you’re in a world of pain anyways

  268. flow

    jonas’, I would't agree with your assumption and conclusion, but yes, makes things easier

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  278. ralphm

    flow: for pubsub, yes, that might be a good idea. But I thought we were mostly discussing regular messages with the standard body element.

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  281. ralphm

    For regular conversations, denothing the language is impractical, at most.

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  283. ralphm

    And at the same time language is hard. Especially if you look at far-east languages. Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, can all be expressed in Unicode. However, due to the so-called han-unification, it means that they all use the same code points with (wildly) different glyphs. So there, denoting which language it is, is crucial for proper display. I am unsure how this actually achieved in platforms.

  284. jonas’

    probably from contetx?

  285. jonas’

    probably from context?

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  291. Ge0rG

    right-click, select encoding. Like in the browser in the good old days of koi-8r

  292. ralphm

    Ge0rG: it has nothing to do with encoding

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  295. ralphm

    You may want to read about Han Unification.

  296. Ge0rG

    ralphm: so it would be: right-click, select *de*coding

  297. pep.

    that's not related to xml:lang anymore is it. Sure language is hard

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  299. Ge0rG

    ralphm: is it something to be covered by xml:lang regional selectors, or by unicode variant selectors?

  300. ralphm

    pep.: well, it is related in that you arguably could use xml:lang for selecting which variant glyphs to use.

  301. pep.

    ralphm, you mean automatically?

  302. ralphm

    Ge0rG: and yes, variant selectors might help, too

  303. ralphm

    pep.: maybe there are heuristics, but I don't know

  304. Ge0rG

    is there an xml:lang that will render all gender-neutral emojis as female?

  305. pep.


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  307. pep.

    Ge0rG, no, there has to be a male modifier alongside!

  308. pep.

    (that's what I see most often anyway..)

  309. Ge0rG


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  311. ralphm

    Those are ZWJs, not variation selectors, I think?

  312. Ge0rG

    ralphm: ZWJs are used to append variation selectors, aren't they?

  313. Ge0rG

    The number of "characters" in a single Emoji is a highly debatable thing.

  314. Ge0rG


  315. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I am a bit out of my depth here, but I think that using presentation selectors with emoji (with ZWJ) is different from what unicode calls variation selectors.

  316. ralphm

    I think variation selectors (regarding emoji) is for making a distinction between a monochrome glyph and a colorful one.

  317. Ge0rG

    ralphm: right; I've totally lost track of the different selectors and how to glue them to the actual Emoji

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  319. ralphm

    I think this page explains it nicely https://blog.emojipedia.org/emoji-zwj-sequences-three-letters-many-possibilities/

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  321. ralphm

    It also mentions VS-16, and I was correct, it seems.

  322. Ge0rG

    Apparently, you just append the fitzpatrick modifier, but use a ZWJ for the gender.

  323. ralphm

    (under the heading Twitter, with a footnoot 3)

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  325. Ge0rG

    Now I wonder what happens if you strip out VS-16 from the woman-heart-woman or the facepalm-man emoji.

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  327. ralphm

    I am still hoping that some day, having WAFFLE + ZWJ + REGIONAL INDICATOR N + NATIONAL INDICATOR L will yield a Stroopwafel.

  328. ralphm

    You probably get a monochrome heart

  329. ralphm


  330. Ge0rG

    Inside the colored Emoji?

  331. ralphm

    this makes it explicit

  332. ralphm

    I don't know man

  333. Ge0rG

    Can I use a 💔 in that sequence?

  334. Ge0rG

    So many questions.

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  336. ralphm


  337. ralphm

    I installed a font that supports Unicode 12, now, so I see a waffle at least.

  338. ralphm

    (I didn't at the time)

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  341. Ge0rG

    ralphm: does it have the epileptic parrot Emoji?

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  345. Ge0rG

    (The Epileptic Parrots would make a great metal band name)

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  347. ralphm

    It is called party parrot

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  349. ralphm


  350. Seve


  351. Ge0rG

    There used to be a parrot.exe bundled with certain SoundBlaster cards. It had a cult as well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMJ0Ufiilg

  352. Seve


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  358. ralphm

    That is awesome!

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  364. Ge0rG

    ralphm: there is a bunch of covers and even some live performance videos!

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  429. Daniel

    am i reading 313 correctly that it doesn’t warn you not to make the dino mistake?

  430. Daniel

    or am I missing something?

  431. Daniel

    (matching up query-id and service jid)

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  433. MattJ

    I don't recall any text along those lines, no

  434. MattJ

    I agree that evidently it needs to be documented

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  436. MattJ

    But I would have assumed it was obvious that results would come from the JID you queried

  437. MattJ

    and not from a different JID

  438. Daniel


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  440. MattJ

    To be clear, I'm 200% in favour of documenting anything that will help people write more secure software by default

  441. MattJ

    Just explaining why it probably wasn't added in the first place

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  443. Daniel

    sure. to be clear i found it 100% obvious to match the jid and the query-id

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  445. Ge0rG

    I found it obvious as well, but my underlying library was playing games with me.

  446. MattJ

    I think it's obvious to everyone if they read it properly, but it's easy for anyone to forget things, so it's good to make important things explicit

  447. Ge0rG

    Smack is calling the processMessage() callback on each message, including on messages that contain a MAM payload, and it is actually the straightforward way to just extract and use it there.

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  449. Ge0rG

    But processMessage() will also get called on all malicious MAM injections.

  450. Ge0rG

    So even when you are aware of the pitfalls, it's not always obvious

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  455. flow

    Ge0rG, which call site of (assuming the MessageListener's) processMessage() are you referring to, from MucManager?

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  457. Ge0rG

    flow: for historical reasons, I'm going through connection.addSyncStanzaListener(..., new StanzaTypeFilter(Message.class))

  458. Ge0rG

    flow: there was a time when smack was silently removing your listeners on network events, like a disconnect

  459. Ge0rG

    so I had to work around all those

  460. flow

    Ge0rG, so you tell smack to invoke a listener for every message and then appear to be complaining about it doing so?

  461. Ge0rG

    flow: looks like that, yes.

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  465. Ge0rG

    flow: what's the official way? A ChatManager?

  466. Ge0rG

    What do I do to track message delivery errors? A ChatMessageDeliveryErrorManager?

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  475. ralphm bangs gavel

  476. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  477. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  478. ralphm

    Seve sent regrets.

  479. Seve

    I still have network, I can follow for now 👍

  480. dwd

    You might need to incant their names.

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  482. MattJ


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  484. MattJ

    It worked

  485. kokonoe has left

  486. ralphm

    I didn't even incant, yet?

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  488. nyco


  489. dwd

    ralphm, Negative latency.

  490. ralphm

    dwd: figures

  491. ralphm


  492. MattJ

    I assumed you did it out loud

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  494. Seve

    Guus cannot attend

  495. ralphm

    Trello as agenda. Any additional items?

  496. MattJ

    None here

  497. ralphm

    Seve: I missed that, ok.

  498. nyco


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  500. ralphm

    nyco: works?

  501. pep.

    There are awaiting PRs in the repo. I was wondering if that should go through board, but I guess I'll poke jonas’ first

  502. nyco_

    shaky connection

  503. nyco_

    I'm here, but maybe not

  504. ralphm

    pep.: PRs for what?

  505. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  506. ralphm


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  508. Daniel

    i can do that

  509. ralphm

    Thanks Daniel

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  511. ralphm

    2. POSS

  512. ralphm

    nyco put this on the agenda

  513. nyco_

    oh yes

  514. nyco_

    actually maybe rather SCAM

  515. pep.

    ralphm, DOAP for example. but ignore it for now, I'll try to get that in the agenda for next week

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  517. ralphm

    nyco_ that'd be my first guess, yes

  518. nyco_


  519. ralphm

    3. ralphm's items

  520. ralphm

    I have been occupied with other stuff, sorry.

  521. ralphm

    Will try for next week.,

  522. ralphm

    4. GSOC

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  526. ralphm

    I saw this was discussed last week?

  527. nyco_


  528. nyco_

    mentors & flow have no time to write stuff...

  529. ralphm

    With an apparent action item for commteam to write a blog post

  530. nyco_

    commTeam may aggregate students blog posts...

  531. ralphm

    Can you take it up with commteam?

  532. nyco_

    sir, yes sir

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  534. ralphm

    Much appreciated sir.

  535. ralphm

    And shine your shoes next time.

  536. Seve


  537. nyco_

    sir, sorry sir

  538. ralphm

    5. Adopt a character

  539. Seve

    Flow suggested this one

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  542. ralphm

    Besides the confusing terminology – I assume they mean codepoint – why should we do this?

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  545. nyco_

    because it's funny and only 100€

  546. nyco_

    we could attract some sympathy

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  548. nyco_

    apart from that it is useless, that is why it is absolutely necessary

  549. ralphm

    Surely funny.

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  551. ralphm

    I also should ask: should the XSF put money (from its sponsors) in this?

  552. nyco_

    good point, but that's only 100€

  553. nyco_

    Silver sponsors pay 1k€

  554. Seve

    I don't really know how much this is known though, but I share the same opinion as Guus and Nyco. We can poll the membership as well, or gather more information on the popuarity of it, etc. Ideally we could promote ourselves a bit as well.

  555. nyco_

    we have some money in the bank, right?

  556. flow

    It's even less, because USD, and tex deducable. And it's for a non-profit org.

  557. nyco_

    ok, less than 100€

  558. mukt2 has joined

  559. nyco_

    I think the popularity of this thing has nothing to do with what we can do with it

  560. flow

    I'd also hoped that one of your sponsors would help us for the silver sponsoring, but even 100$ would be ok and increase the visiblity of the XSF a bit.

  561. nyco_

    I have mixed feeling about it, I defend the idea now, but I'm not so sure, just feelings

  562. flow

    My general feeling is that it could be justified to spend 100$ for this. But I have no detail knowledge about our bank account

  563. Seve

    We could have the badge on our website which is cool

  564. nyco_


  565. nyco_


  566. Seve

    No, they generate a badge, Nyco

  567. flow

    We could also ask members to help with the funding, if it's a problem

  568. ralphm

    I also should point out that Bronze level is not unique, that's only for Silver and Gold.

  569. nyco_

    the badges for compliance are coming which will improve our visuals

  570. adiaholic has joined

  571. flow

    ralphm, IIRC only gold is unique

  572. flow

    but silver limited to 5 or so

  573. ralphm

    oh, ok

  574. flow

    while bronze is unlimited

  575. nyco_

    https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html no bronze

  576. pep.

    not this bronze

  577. nyco_

    oh waut

  578. wurstsalat has left

  579. flow

    ralphm, re the terminology, "adopt a character" is how unicode.org calls it

  580. wurstsalat has joined

  581. Seve

    flow: do you know by any chance other communities that did this?

  582. flow

    but anyhow, appeared like a cheap way to get some visibility and it's for a non-profit that we benefit from, soo

  583. flow

    Seve, just look at the current sponsors

  584. flow


  585. Seve

    Yeah, we are not Adobe :D

  586. j.r has left

  587. ralphm

    I know of one company that went crazy with this, by the way: https://www.elastic.co/blog/elastic-love-for-the-adopt-a-character-program-and-the-unicode-consortium

  588. nyco_

    instead of sponsors money, indeed we can even make a small crowdfunding campaign, which brings visibility as well, allows us to measure somehow our attractiveness

  589. ralphm

    flow: my 😜 wasn't obvious?

  590. Daniel

    not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us

  591. neshtaxmpp has joined

  592. j.r has joined

  593. dwd

    ralphm, Is that the emoji we're adopting?

  594. j.r has left

  595. Seve

    > not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us That's my "issue"

  596. pep.

    I agree with Daniel

  597. ralphm

    dwd: this is not my suggestion, no

  598. nyco_

    it is not about visibility among sponsors, it is about us generating original content and gettings relayed and engage the communities

  599. ralphm

    But if you'd want to do it in a big way, you'd adopt < and >

  600. ralphm

    At Gold level

  601. peter has joined

  602. flow


  603. nyco_

    the chat bubble at bronze level will do

  604. adiaholic has left

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  606. dwd

    My view, BTW, is that adopting is worth a punt at the $100 mark, and we can make some noise about it ourselves. It's just an interesting talking point at that level, but a talking point is always useful.

  607. flow

    My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters

  608. nyco_

    we communicate on our channels, our competitors don't come on our channels

  609. Seve

    I like the idea and would love if somebody among us was motivates enough for this, to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character. For me is really a +1, just that I don't find myself inspired enough about the whole unicode world to promote it properly

  610. mukt2 has left

  611. nyco_

    also, let's focus on ourselves, our future, how we serve our people

  612. Daniel

    if you want something to tweet pay for drinks and/or dinner at the next developer sprint and we get you pictures of happy developers developing xmpp

  613. nyco_

    looking at competition is a waste of time, makes you feel bad/good

  614. nyco_

    that can be done anyway

  615. nyco_

    dudes drinking beer is not funny nor attractive btw

  616. Seve

    > My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters Surely they can afford it, so yeah, but we would be first as well

  617. zach has left

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  619. pep.

    > to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character. Tbh I see this easily criticized.. "XMPP don't have anything better to do? They could fix their protocol instead"

  620. pep.

    (Not by Matrix obviously)

  621. nyco_

    there, you named it! :)

  622. nyco_

    the same could be said to any char sponsor

  623. pep.

    nyco_, yes

  624. nyco_

    what do people actually say on Elastic for example?

  625. nyco_

    quite sure we don't care about _potential_ negativity

  626. mukt2 has joined

  627. dwd

    pep., You realise people say that stuff *anyway*, right?

  628. Seve


  629. ralphm


  630. j.r has joined

  631. pep.

    dwd, yeah

  632. ralphm

    I see enough support for asking the community what character they'd like to see adopted

  633. nyco_

    let's make short blog post, a call for funding, we offer the bubble bronze, that's 100€ we see how the community responds to this we move on, or not if we do, a second blog post to announce the bubble is ours in a funny way

  634. Kev


  635. ralphm

    Kev: that's you suggestion?

  636. nyco_

    how does it work to collect donations from the community?

  637. Kev

    ralphm: Well, ask a Welshman :)

  638. ralphm

    Dude we have Texel

  639. Ge0rG

    I'm still in favor of the light bulb

  640. Seve

    I'm not

  641. dwd

    Guys, I'd humbly suggest you just pick something (chat bubble sounds good) and do it. No real need to ask the community.

  642. Ge0rG

    is there a bike shedding emoji?

  643. kokonoe has left

  644. nyco_

    not lighbulb, it's Jabber, it dates from the XXth century

  645. Seve


  646. ralphm

    The rules are here: https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/sponsorship/

  647. MattJ

    The irony: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20190912-1568296922-7917.png

  648. nyco_

    symbolises presence, which has become overtime a secundary feature

  649. marc_ has left

  650. Ge0rG

    I like presents

  651. Seve

    dwd: thank you

  652. ralphm

    MattJ: https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/1172092470311739392 should help you

  653. dwd

    MattJ, Could we sponsor U+FFFD then?

  654. Zash


  655. nyco_


  656. ralphm

    +1 on selecting the chat bubble, but noting it is also sponsored at Gold level by Discourse

  657. nyco_

    +1 chat bubble

  658. Ge0rG

    dwd: why not ALM?

  659. nyco_

    Discourse, we don't care, these are friends, not competitors even competitors, we don't care, see above

  660. Seve

    Are there any other chat bubble characters? I'm guessing there is no "real time" emoji

  661. Zash

    U+1F4AC 💬 U+1F5E8 🗨 U+1F5E9 🗩 U+1F5EA 🗪 U+1F5EB 🗫

  662. dwd


  663. nyco_

    we could list candidates, but the chat bubble is pretty obvious and expecetd

  664. Zash

    dwd: :D

  665. ralphm


  666. ralphm

    I suggested < and > above

  667. nyco_

    given the popularity of XML...

  668. Kev

    I suggest (as Dave) that if Board want to do this, just come up with something and do it :)

  669. Zash

    Make XML great again!

  670. ralphm

    I like 🗪 U+1F5EA

  671. ralphm

    Zash: thanks for the swag idea there

  672. Ge0rG

    I still think we would have to make it a bikeshed emoji, but there are no bikeshed emojis, and the closest term would be yak shaving, but there are no yak emoji, only water buffalos.

  673. Kev

    Ge0rG: Can we propose a new modifier for the water buffalo?

  674. Ge0rG

    ralphm: it's nice, except that it's not yet widely supported

  675. Kev

    But FWIW, I think ralphm's suggestion of U+1F5EA is cute.

  676. ralphm

    Ge0rG: well, we are progressive

  677. COM8 has joined

  678. Kev

    And it's nice to have something that if we include it in JIDs will break the network ;p

  679. Ge0rG

    > Copy 🚩 This Unicode character has no emoji version, meaning this is intended to display only as a black and white glyph on most platforms.

  680. nyco_

    ok, it's 16:09, the meeting has been sabotaged by the floor! :)

  681. COM8 has left

  682. ralphm

    nyco_: ehem, somebody asked for input by the community

  683. ralphm

    But I agree we are done for today.

  684. nyco_


  685. nyco_

    I don't know who

  686. ralphm

    Board: let's all think about our preference and hammer it next week.

  687. dwd

    For those without a decent font, like me: Unicode Character 'TWO SPEECH BUBBLES' (U+1F5EA) https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1F5EA/index.htm

  688. ralphm

    dwd: see my tweet for help

  689. UsL has joined

  690. Ge0rG

    ralphm: your help is not universally applicabl

  691. Ge0rG

    ralphm: your help is not universally applicable

  692. ralphm

    6. AOB

  693. nyco_


  694. Seve

    None here

  695. ralphm

    Ge0rG: you could at least look at it in more detail, and see that the second link actually is for the most part.

  696. ralphm

    7. Date of Next

  697. ralphm


  698. nyco_


  699. ralphm

    8. Close

  700. ralphm

    Thanks Daniel for the minutes.

  701. ralphm

    And thanks everyone else, too.

  702. ralphm bangs gavel

  703. MattJ


  704. Seve

    Thank you for the meeting, got a bit off topic though :D

  705. nyco_

    thanks, merci !

  706. Daniel

    what's 'POSS' by the way?

  707. COM8 has joined

  708. dwd

    Daniel, Paris Open Source Summit

  709. pep.

    Paris Open-Source Summit

  710. Daniel

    i see. thanks

  711. Daniel

    isn’t that scam then?

  712. Daniel

    shouldn’t we at some point merge scam and comm?

  713. Daniel

    and make it 'outreach' or something?

  714. pep.

    Yeah I'm of this opinion as well

  715. dwd

    Daniel, There's certainly a lot of crossover.

  716. Ge0rG

    shouldn't that be decided by the respective teams?

  717. COM8 has left

  718. ralphm

    Well, I generally just do SCAM, and I prefer that

  719. neshtaxmpp has left

  720. ralphm

    There is no reason why work teams can't work together

  721. MattJ

    I'd also prefer it to be able to just set these teams a budget, and let them discuss unicode character options for hours

  722. pep.


  723. Kev

    That seems rather sensible.

  724. pep.

    I think it's somewhat wasted time for board

  725. ralphm

    SCAM already has a budget

  726. MattJ

    It feels like a lot of trivial stuff trickles up to Board these days

  727. Daniel

    we have a budget?

  728. pep.


  729. j.r has left

  730. Kev

    Ooh, XSF trivia Kev didn't know.

  731. MattJ

    Yes, we set one for SCAM

  732. Daniel

    oh we do

  733. pep.


  734. peter

    FYI last night we got paid for GSoC, so we now have an extra $4800.00 in the bank account. Don't spend it all on Unicode characters! ;-)

  735. ralphm

    It is $1000/yr

  736. zach has left

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  738. ralphm

    peter: hehe

  739. Zash

    ralphm: for gold?

  740. COM8 has joined

  741. Daniel

    now we have to spend it all so we can get it raised for next year (that's how budgets work, right?)

  742. mukt2 has left

  743. pep.


  744. pep.

    "See, we need moar"

  745. Zash

    "You have money left? Better reduce next years budget by that then"

  746. Ge0rG

    that should be enough for Gold on <🗪>

  747. Ge0rG

    i.e. all three of them

  748. j.r has joined

  749. Ge0rG

    no wait, just for silver :(

  750. Kev

    See, *do* need more.

  751. dwd

    I would actually be very happy to see more money spent on outreach in general.

  752. ralphm

    Zash: for SCAM. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-September/008648.html

  753. Daniel

    pep. and I actually wanted to spend money on scam a couple of times. but we didn’t know we had a budget

  754. adiaholic has joined

  755. Zash


  756. Ge0rG

    dwd: I offer to loudly proclaim "XMPP" in the shopping mall in my home city for just 250$/hr

  757. mukt2 has joined

  758. pep.

    I'm not sure I would do that even at this price

  759. COM8 has left

  760. ralphm

    Daniel: well, every time people have asked about money (like for stickers) I said: yes, send the bill to peter

  761. MattJ

    pep., words true of real XMPP developer :)

  762. pep.


  763. Ge0rG

    pep.: I was trying to think of the lowest-effort thing that qualifies as "outreach for money" that doesn't immediately qualify as a SCAM

  764. peter has left

  765. Daniel

    ralphm, sure. i just wasn’t really aware that those came out of the scam budget

  766. kokonoe has joined

  767. dwd

    Ge0rG, Unicode characters?

  768. Zash

    Let's start a "sponsor an xmlns" campain! /notentirelyserious

  769. Ge0rG

    dwd: this results in being placed on some well-hidden web-page. We can have that already for free.

  770. ralphm

    Daniel: well, we haven't really been strict and make a financial overview

  771. ralphm

    most of the money is spent on the Summit / FOSDEM and that $1000 is a nice target

  772. winfried has left

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  774. jonas’

    14:03:38 dwd> MattJ, Could we sponsor U+FFFD then?

  775. ralphm

    stpeter: if you are kinda here, have you seen my mail over at xmpp@ietf.org regarding Unicode versions?

  776. jonas’

    I literally laughed out loudly, in a fiendish laugh. Thanks for that one.

  777. andy has left

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  779. dwd

    ralphm, I don't see it. When?

  780. Ge0rG

    dwd: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI

  781. COM8 has joined

  782. dwd

    I've found it now.

  783. COM8 has left

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  792. ralphm

    dwd: wow, if you missed it then I guess nobody's read it

  793. neshtaxmpp has joined

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  797. dwd

    ralphm, I have a eyeball-meltingly large inbox, mind.

  798. COM8 has joined

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  800. COM8 has left

  801. ralphm

    Select All, Mark as Read.

  802. Zash

    Select all, Archive.

  803. COM8 has joined

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  806. Ge0rG

    Read Mail Really Fast.

  807. Zash

    Inbox Zero Archivement

  808. Ge0rG

    > =inbox [Msgs:163039 New:99724 Flag:1477 Post:11 Inc:20 7281M]

  809. peter

    ralphm: I did see your note among the other ~10k unread messages. ;-) I'll need focused time to spool up all that i18n context again, hopefully tomorrow.

  810. winfried has left

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  813. peter


  814. winfried has left

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  817. ralphm

    peter: 👍

  818. COM8 has left

  819. Ge0rG

    flow: so, what's the official way to process messages? A ChatManager?

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  839. dwd

    What's the response to a MAM request which matches no messages?

  840. zach has left

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  842. Zash

    `<iq type='result'><{urn:xmpp:mam:2}fin complete='true'/></iq>` ?

  843. jubalh has joined

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  845. Zash

    {rsm}set/count=0 maybe

  846. winfried has left

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  848. Zash

    Don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere

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  855. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409 should this be to board? Is seems there is no place on the website where CC or Creative Commons is mentioned apart in specific places like IPR changelog, or a blog post I can't find the url for

  856. pep.

    *sent to board

  857. kokonoe has joined

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  860. pep.

    Also as mentioned earlier in the board meeting, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594 DOAP. Maybe Link Mauve can chime in next board meeting if we put it on the agenda

  861. pep.

    (Is all that handled by board, or anybody else?)

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  869. dwd

    pep., Licensing is Board, DOAP... Might be? Probably is, but they may bump it straight to whoever is looking after the website.

  870. pep.

    Who is looking after the website?

  871. kokonoe has left

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  874. pep.

    (Editors surely have commit rights, does that make them "looking after the website"?)

  875. jonas’

    I don’t think that editors have commit rights per-se?

  876. Zash

    I suspect it's Board

  877. nyco_

    pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board

  878. nyco_


  879. pep.

    I don't have a trello account, can you put it there in the meantime(?)

  880. winfried has left

  881. winfried has joined

  882. nyco_

    you put it there

  883. nyco_


  884. nyco_

    my mistake

  885. jonas’

    will do

  886. nyco_

    > pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board pep. added PR 409 to the board Trello board

  887. nyco_

    forgot the past tense

  888. pep.


  889. nyco_

    jonas’ it's added

  890. jonas’


  891. nyco_


  892. pep.

    I didn't, probably somebody did for me

  893. nyco_

    I did

  894. pep.

    cool thanks

  895. nyco_

    thx to you for raising it

  896. pep.

    I'm also interested about DOAP

  897. pep.

    If you can add that one as well :)

  898. pep.

    At least know who's responsability that is

  899. kokonoe has left

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  901. nyco_

    well... not sure

  902. pep.

    Can we put this on the agenda so it gets decided who's responsible to say yes or no?

  903. pep.

    Also I got myself an account, pep@bouah.net

  904. dwd

    Ultimately, everything outside a XEP is Board.

  905. nyco_

    pep. I have add_ED_ the item to the board's board

  906. pep.

    Ah ok thank you :)

  907. nyco_

    dwd : and the board does not know/want, it's for the iteam

  908. Kev

    dwd: Well, mostly. Technical is still the domain of Council, even when non-XEP. E.g. technical direction. But mostly.

  909. kokonoe has left

  910. pep.

    Do I need to be invited to the trello board? Should I be able to write stuff already?

  911. pep.

    Trello is fighting me so that I create my first board atm, I don't think I need that

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  990. dwd

    ralphm, I have read, and carefully considered, your email to xmpp@ietf.

  991. dwd

    ralphm, It raises many interesting challenges.

  992. dwd

    ralphm, My response is as follows:

  993. dwd

    ralphm, That's a bit shit isn't it?

  994. Zash

    Everything is terrible. News at 11.

  995. ralphm

    dwd: quite

  996. dwd

    ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point?

  997. Zash

    Like email?

  998. dwd

    ralphm, I've a vague recollection that Kurt Zeilenga suggested it could be used to canonicalize "Western Names" for Chinese people into the proper form, etc.

  999. dwd

    Zash, Like email but more so. We'd need a canonicalization service, I imagine.

  1000. Wojtek has left

  1001. Ge0rG

    dwd [20:35]: > ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point? What if that domain is malicious and sends major violations to us? Not looking at conference.jabber.org at all

  1002. zach has left

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  1005. jonas’

    Ge0rG, hand it to the SPAM WG?

  1006. ralphm

    dwd: maybe there's a sane strategy, but I'm unaware of one and it surely isn't documented clearly anywhere.

  1007. Ge0rG

    jonas’: no, what I mean is: what if it crashes clients or causes nasal demons?

  1008. jonas’

    that’s client bugs

  1009. APach has joined

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  1011. Ge0rG

    Right, it's presumptuous to assume that the server won't give us JIDs with quotes in them

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  1013. jonas’


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  1015. jubalh

    guys, does https://github.com/dino/dino/commit/e84f2c49567e86d2a261ea264d65c4adc549c930 mean that 'from' always needs to be there?

  1016. jonas’

    jubalh, it depends on your stream layer

  1017. jonas’

    on the wire, the @from may also be omitted

  1018. jubalh

    because we have: https://github.com/profanity-im/profanity/blob/master/src/xmpp/roster.c#L215 right now

  1019. jubalh

    where we only test if equals barejid if from is there

  1020. jonas’

    that’s correct

  1021. jonas’

    if @from is absent, it’s to be treated as equivalent to your account bare JID

  1022. jonas’

    RFC 6120 something

  1023. jonas’

    (on inbound stanzas, obviously)

  1024. jubalh

    alright, thanks!

  1025. jonas’

    3. When the server generates a stanza from the server for delivery to the client on behalf of the account of the connected client (e.g., in the context of data storage services provided by the server on behalf of the client), the stanza MUST either (a) not include a 'from' attribute or (b) include a 'from' attribute whose value is the account's bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>).

  1026. jonas’

    some client libraries will alias absent @from to the bare JID for easier handling in client code

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  1033. Zash

    I tried removing redundant @to/@from at the server. IIRC some clients didn't appreciate it.

  1034. Ge0rG

    jubalh: some servers will do crazy things on messages inside of Carbons, at least for messages to your own JID

  1035. Daniel

    Yes that check in Dino has the potential to go boom. Because null is valid

  1036. Daniel

    But most servers do set it

  1037. Ge0rG

    I wish that'd be something the underlying xmpp would take care of

  1038. Daniel

    So it's fine ™

  1039. ralphm

    jonas’: the thing I was talking about with dwd is a bit more involved though, as per that email

  1040. Ge0rG

    Daniel: send a message to self on prosody 0.10 IIRC

  1041. ralphm

    Even if server do saner things, you still have issues with differing Unicode versions.

  1042. ralphm


  1043. Zash

    Myeah, prosody internally removes @to on stanzas to the account.

  1044. Daniel

    Ge0rG: yes I'm just saying that this particular check in Dino (around carbons) will be fine most of the time

  1045. Daniel

    But yeah if you do it properly you also want to accept null

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  1047. larma

    Daniel, you missed the part where dino will automatically inject the correct value of from if it's messing

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  1049. Daniel


  1050. jubalh

    jonas’, can I somehow convince you to implement XEP-0392 in Profanity? ;) I heard you did it in poezio

  1051. Ge0rG

    So I have a JID getter wrapper that gets passed the appropriate default value for where it is called on.

  1052. larma


  1053. larma

    It even has a comment with reference to the RFC \o/

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  1055. jonas’

    ralphm, "that email"?

  1056. kokonoe has joined

  1057. Zash

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI ?

  1058. jonas’

    right, I thought there was another email I was missing about solutions to the mess

  1059. lumi has joined

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  1061. Zash

    jonas’, the one I'm going to write about potato farming? 😉

  1062. jonas’

    Zash, that sounds like a plan

  1063. kokonoe has left

  1064. ralphm

    No 🥔 no 🍟. Yay!

  1065. ralphm

    Moar 🥔

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  1075. Zash

    Thread relevant for retractions: https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2019/09/09/2

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  1080. Zash

    Brilliant. ß is mapped to ss by stringprep. Which is fine with IDNA 2003 because it does the same. However, in IDNA 2008 those are distinct.

  1081. Daniel

    what about ẞ?

  1082. Zash


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  1084. Zash

    nameprep (configured to allow unassigned) just passes it trough

  1085. Mikaela has joined

  1086. Zash

    IDNA 2003 doesn't like it IDNA 2008 maps it to 'ss'

  1087. Zash

    $ lua -e 'print(require"util.encodings".idna.to_ascii("ẞß"))' xn--ss-hia

  1088. Ge0rG


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  1090. Daniel

    well mapping ẞ to what ever ß maps to makes sense. mapping it to ſs would also be an option I guess

  1091. Zash


  1092. Zash

    ß maps to ß

  1093. Daniel

    someone should probably have a talk with them

  1094. jubalh has left

  1095. Daniel

    about our beloved s'es

  1096. moparisthebest

    I vaguely recall reading about the same issue with domain names right?

  1097. Daniel

    idna2008 has a compat mode because of that

  1098. Zash

    It does

  1099. Daniel

    more or less specifically because of the ß->ss issue

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  1102. Zash

    Yeah, but the non-compat mode seems to be moot due to stringprep already doing ß→ss

  1103. Daniel

    allowing anything but ascii was a mistake

  1104. jubalh has joined

  1105. Zash

    Incidentally, I haven't spotted any non-ascii domains as active peers

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  1108. Zash

    So at least for domains maybe we don't have to worry too much.

  1109. Daniel

    someone on the Conversations had plä.net (or something) once

  1110. Daniel

    which triggered multiple things in Conversations

  1111. Daniel

    including cert validation and stuff

  1112. Zash

    There's nödåtgärd.se which was around when Prosody originally gained IDNA code, and maybe even the reason for it.

  1113. pep.

    Zash, maybe that's because they can't initiate anything with you that you haven't noticed them :P

  1114. moparisthebest

    > allowing anything but ascii was a mistake

  1115. moparisthebest

    haha yes

  1116. Zash

    But punycode

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