would the XSF want to host blog posts showcasing e.g. how to configure a specific XMPP setup on xmpp.org?
jonas’
from non-XSF members
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Daniel
jonas’, maybe not 'blog post' but actually good tutorials i think are welcome
Daniel
re the discussion on the developers foundation at the last summit
Ge0rG
maybe we can just retweet them from @xmpp
Daniel
when ever i finally have a few days down time i'll actually submit such a tutorial myself
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Daniel
here is how Conversations is going to deal with the multiple translation issue from now on: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/commit/9bf5fb98acce52d49326f2f613a99f5b957f95c7
Ge0rG
Daniel: got a screenshot of the language tag?
pep.
Daniel, is there such a thing as "no language tag"? xml:lang is usually (often? always?) set on the stream
I type in Dutch and English depending on which contact I'm talking to. I am Dutch, but have my phone set to English. How do you plan to handle this?
pep.
I also do type Japanese on my xml:lang="en" stream fwiw
Daniel
ralphm, it's just displaying the tag if there are multiple bodies
Daniel
so you will never see that anyway
ralphm
I mean, how do I tell my client what I am doing?
pep.
Most clients don't or badly support multiple languages anyway
Daniel
right. but Conversations will not send multiple. if you have a client that sends multiple it is the responsibilty of that client to set something sane
Daniel
i mean if you type a dutch message with Conversations it will only have one body and thus not show any tag on the receiving side
ralphm
But even if you have a single body, would you then just not have a language tag, and just have it inherit from the stream?
Ge0rG
ralphm: change the PC / mobile phone language setting before talking, reconnect to update the stream language
pep.
:D
ralphm
Ge0rG: of course
jonas’
08:50:07 Daniel> pep., no tag means stream
jonas’
Daniel, no tag means the tag on the stanza
pep.
well no tag means parent tag
pep.
and so on
ralphm
Well xml:lang is inherited as defined by the XML spec, so that part was clear to me.
Daniel
no single body will not show a tag
Daniel
that would be extremly annoying
jonas’
Daniel, overall, that sounds like a very reasonable solution
Ge0rG
It's not inherited in most xml parser implementations...
ralphm
Ge0rG: yep, it is not easy, and then there's the part where you take a stanza from a stream and send it onwards on another stream. You'd have to take the inherited xml:lang along (just as with namespaces/prefixes).
Daniel
(i'll make a note for looking into the inheritence)
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Ge0rGhad issues with that hairy part as well... https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/message-getbody-returns-null-if-all-bodies-have-an-xml-lang/83923
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ralphm
I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all.
flow
Daniel, inheritance applies to other things besides xml:lang too. If you are going to fix it for xml:lang, you may want to make sure that it is also done (or at least possible) for those other things. At least that is what I did in Smack
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flow
ralphm, what about e.g. pubsub notifications to a wide audience?
jonas’
flow, what are the other things?
jonas’
I only know of xml:lang
pep.
wasn't xml:space a thing?
jonas’
if that isn’t handled by the XML parser you’re screwed anyways (and I don’t think it’s inherited?)
Daniel
> I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all.
As I argue in the commit message just showing the default without any warning doesn't help because you never know what legacy does out there
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Daniel
So whether or not sending this in practice is a good idea is only a secondary question. Your client will have to deal with it either way
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flow
jonas’, namespaces and prefixes
jonas’
flow, right, I assume that everyone uses an XML Namespaces compliant parser
jonas’, I would't agree with your assumption and conclusion, but yes, makes things easier
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ralphm
flow: for pubsub, yes, that might be a good idea. But I thought we were mostly discussing regular messages with the standard body element.
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ralphm
For regular conversations, denothing the language is impractical, at most.
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ralphm
And at the same time language is hard. Especially if you look at far-east languages. Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, can all be expressed in Unicode. However, due to the so-called han-unification, it means that they all use the same code points with (wildly) different glyphs. So there, denoting which language it is, is crucial for proper display. I am unsure how this actually achieved in platforms.
right-click, select encoding. Like in the browser in the good old days of koi-8r
ralphm
Ge0rG: it has nothing to do with encoding
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ralphm
You may want to read about Han Unification.
Ge0rG
ralphm: so it would be: right-click, select *de*coding
pep.
that's not related to xml:lang anymore is it. Sure language is hard
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Ge0rG
ralphm: is it something to be covered by xml:lang regional selectors, or by unicode variant selectors?
ralphm
pep.: well, it is related in that you arguably could use xml:lang for selecting which variant glyphs to use.
pep.
ralphm, you mean automatically?
ralphm
Ge0rG: and yes, variant selectors might help, too
ralphm
pep.: maybe there are heuristics, but I don't know
Ge0rG
is there an xml:lang that will render all gender-neutral emojis as female?
pep.
haha
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pep.
Ge0rG, no, there has to be a male modifier alongside!
pep.
(that's what I see most often anyway..)
Ge0rG
xml:lang="en_US@♀\u1F3FF"
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ralphm
Those are ZWJs, not variation selectors, I think?
Ge0rG
ralphm: ZWJs are used to append variation selectors, aren't they?
Ge0rG
The number of "characters" in a single Emoji is a highly debatable thing.
Ge0rG
https://hsivonen.fi/string-length/
ralphm
Ge0rG: I am a bit out of my depth here, but I think that using presentation selectors with emoji (with ZWJ) is different from what unicode calls variation selectors.
ralphm
I think variation selectors (regarding emoji) is for making a distinction between a monochrome glyph and a colorful one.
Ge0rG
ralphm: right; I've totally lost track of the different selectors and how to glue them to the actual Emoji
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ralphm
I think this page explains it nicely https://blog.emojipedia.org/emoji-zwj-sequences-three-letters-many-possibilities/
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ralphm
It also mentions VS-16, and I was correct, it seems.
Ge0rG
Apparently, you just append the fitzpatrick modifier, but use a ZWJ for the gender.
ralphm
(under the heading Twitter, with a footnoot 3)
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Ge0rG
Now I wonder what happens if you strip out VS-16 from the woman-heart-woman or the facepalm-man emoji.
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ralphm
I am still hoping that some day, having WAFFLE + ZWJ + REGIONAL INDICATOR N + NATIONAL INDICATOR L will yield a Stroopwafel.
I installed a font that supports Unicode 12, now, so I see a waffle at least.
ralphm
(I didn't at the time)
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Ge0rG
ralphm: does it have the epileptic parrot Emoji?
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Ge0rG
(The Epileptic Parrots would make a great metal band name)
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ralphm
It is called party parrot
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ralphm
https://cultofthepartyparrot.com/
Seve
crazy
Ge0rG
There used to be a parrot.exe bundled with certain SoundBlaster cards. It had a cult as well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMJ0Ufiilg
Seve
:D
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ralphm
That is awesome!
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Ge0rG
ralphm: there is a bunch of covers and even some live performance videos!
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Daniel
am i reading 313 correctly that it doesn’t warn you not to make the dino mistake?
Daniel
or am I missing something?
Daniel
(matching up query-id and service jid)
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MattJ
I don't recall any text along those lines, no
MattJ
I agree that evidently it needs to be documented
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MattJ
But I would have assumed it was obvious that results would come from the JID you queried
MattJ
and not from a different JID
Daniel
well…
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MattJ
To be clear, I'm 200% in favour of documenting anything that will help people write more secure software by default
MattJ
Just explaining why it probably wasn't added in the first place
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Daniel
sure. to be clear i found it 100% obvious to match the jid and the query-id
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Ge0rG
I found it obvious as well, but my underlying library was playing games with me.
MattJ
I think it's obvious to everyone if they read it properly, but it's easy for anyone to forget things, so it's good to make important things explicit
Ge0rG
Smack is calling the processMessage() callback on each message, including on messages that contain a MAM payload, and it is actually the straightforward way to just extract and use it there.
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Ge0rG
But processMessage() will also get called on all malicious MAM injections.
Ge0rG
So even when you are aware of the pitfalls, it's not always obvious
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flow
Ge0rG, which call site of (assuming the MessageListener's) processMessage() are you referring to, from MucManager?
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Ge0rG
flow: for historical reasons, I'm going through connection.addSyncStanzaListener(..., new StanzaTypeFilter(Message.class))
Ge0rG
flow: there was a time when smack was silently removing your listeners on network events, like a disconnect
Ge0rG
so I had to work around all those
flow
Ge0rG, so you tell smack to invoke a listener for every message and then appear to be complaining about it doing so?
Ge0rG
flow: looks like that, yes.
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Ge0rG
flow: what's the official way? A ChatManager?
Ge0rG
What do I do to track message delivery errors? A ChatMessageDeliveryErrorManager?
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
ralphm
Who do we have today?
ralphm
Seve sent regrets.
Seve
I still have network, I can follow for now 👍
dwd
You might need to incant their names.
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MattJ
Hey
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MattJ
It worked
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ralphm
I didn't even incant, yet?
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nyco
test
dwd
ralphm, Negative latency.
ralphm
dwd: figures
ralphm
Guus?
MattJ
I assumed you did it out loud
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Seve
Guus cannot attend
ralphm
Trello as agenda. Any additional items?
MattJ
None here
ralphm
Seve: I missed that, ok.
nyco
re-re-test
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ralphm
nyco: works?
pep.
There are awaiting PRs in the repo. I was wondering if that should go through board, but I guess I'll poke jonas’ first
nyco_
shaky connection
nyco_
I'm here, but maybe not
ralphm
pep.: PRs for what?
ralphm
1. Minute taker
ralphm
Who?
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Daniel
i can do that
ralphm
Thanks Daniel
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ralphm
2. POSS
ralphm
nyco put this on the agenda
nyco_
oh yes
nyco_
actually maybe rather SCAM
pep.
ralphm, DOAP for example. but ignore it for now, I'll try to get that in the agenda for next week
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ralphm
nyco_ that'd be my first guess, yes
nyco_
ok
ralphm
3. ralphm's items
ralphm
I have been occupied with other stuff, sorry.
ralphm
Will try for next week.,
ralphm
4. GSOC
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ralphm
I saw this was discussed last week?
nyco_
yep
nyco_
mentors & flow have no time to write stuff...
ralphm
With an apparent action item for commteam to write a blog post
nyco_
commTeam may aggregate students blog posts...
ralphm
Can you take it up with commteam?
nyco_
sir, yes sir
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ralphm
Much appreciated sir.
ralphm
And shine your shoes next time.
Seve
:)
nyco_
sir, sorry sir
ralphm
5. Adopt a character
Seve
Flow suggested this one
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ralphm
Besides the confusing terminology – I assume they mean codepoint – why should we do this?
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nyco_
because it's funny and only 100€
nyco_
we could attract some sympathy
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nyco_
apart from that it is useless, that is why it is absolutely necessary
ralphm
Surely funny.
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ralphm
I also should ask: should the XSF put money (from its sponsors) in this?
nyco_
good point, but that's only 100€
nyco_
Silver sponsors pay 1k€
Seve
I don't really know how much this is known though, but I share the same opinion as Guus and Nyco. We can poll the membership as well, or gather more information on the popuarity of it, etc. Ideally we could promote ourselves a bit as well.
nyco_
we have some money in the bank, right?
flow
It's even less, because USD, and tex deducable. And it's for a non-profit org.
nyco_
ok, less than 100€
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nyco_
I think the popularity of this thing has nothing to do with what we can do with it
flow
I'd also hoped that one of your sponsors would help us for the silver sponsoring, but even 100$ would be ok and increase the visiblity of the XSF a bit.
nyco_
I have mixed feeling about it, I defend the idea now, but I'm not so sure, just feelings
flow
My general feeling is that it could be justified to spend 100$ for this. But I have no detail knowledge about our bank account
Seve
We could have the badge on our website which is cool
nyco_
s/badge/character/
nyco_
:)
Seve
No, they generate a badge, Nyco
flow
We could also ask members to help with the funding, if it's a problem
ralphm
I also should point out that Bronze level is not unique, that's only for Silver and Gold.
nyco_
the badges for compliance are coming
which will improve our visuals
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flow
ralphm, IIRC only gold is unique
flow
but silver limited to 5 or so
ralphm
oh, ok
flow
while bronze is unlimited
nyco_
https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html no bronze
pep.
not this bronze
nyco_
oh waut
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flow
ralphm, re the terminology, "adopt a character" is how unicode.org calls it
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Seve
flow: do you know by any chance other communities that did this?
flow
but anyhow, appeared like a cheap way to get some visibility and it's for a non-profit that we benefit from, soo
I know of one company that went crazy with this, by the way: https://www.elastic.co/blog/elastic-love-for-the-adopt-a-character-program-and-the-unicode-consortium
nyco_
instead of sponsors money, indeed we can even make a small crowdfunding campaign, which brings visibility as well, allows us to measure somehow our attractiveness
ralphm
flow: my 😜 wasn't obvious?
Daniel
not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us
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dwd
ralphm, Is that the emoji we're adopting?
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Seve
> not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us
That's my "issue"
pep.
I agree with Daniel
ralphm
dwd: this is not my suggestion, no
nyco_
it is not about visibility among sponsors, it is about us generating original content and gettings relayed and engage the communities
ralphm
But if you'd want to do it in a big way, you'd adopt < and >
ralphm
At Gold level
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flow
hehe
nyco_
the chat bubble at bronze level will do
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dwd
My view, BTW, is that adopting is worth a punt at the $100 mark, and we can make some noise about it ourselves. It's just an interesting talking point at that level, but a talking point is always useful.
flow
My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters
nyco_
we communicate on our channels, our competitors don't come on our channels
Seve
I like the idea and would love if somebody among us was motivates enough for this, to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character. For me is really a +1, just that I don't find myself inspired enough about the whole unicode world to promote it properly
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nyco_
also, let's focus on ourselves, our future, how we serve our people
Daniel
if you want something to tweet pay for drinks and/or dinner at the next developer sprint and we get you pictures of happy developers developing xmpp
nyco_
looking at competition is a waste of time, makes you feel bad/good
nyco_
that can be done anyway
nyco_
dudes drinking beer is not funny nor attractive btw
Seve
> My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters
Surely they can afford it, so yeah, but we would be first as well
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pep.
> to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character.
Tbh I see this easily criticized.. "XMPP don't have anything better to do? They could fix their protocol instead"
pep.
(Not by Matrix obviously)
nyco_
there, you named it! :)
nyco_
the same could be said to any char sponsor
pep.
nyco_, yes
nyco_
what do people actually say on Elastic for example?
nyco_
quite sure we don't care about _potential_ negativity
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dwd
pep., You realise people say that stuff *anyway*, right?
Seve
Exactly
ralphm
indeed
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pep.
dwd, yeah
ralphm
I see enough support for asking the community what character they'd like to see adopted
nyco_
let's make short blog post, a call for funding, we offer the bubble bronze, that's 100€
we see how the community responds to this
we move on, or not
if we do, a second blog post to announce the bubble is ours in a funny way
Kev
🐑
ralphm
Kev: that's you suggestion?
nyco_
how does it work to collect donations from the community?
Kev
ralphm: Well, ask a Welshman :)
ralphm
Dude we have Texel
Ge0rG
I'm still in favor of the light bulb
Seve
I'm not
dwd
Guys, I'd humbly suggest you just pick something (chat bubble sounds good) and do it. No real need to ask the community.
Ge0rG
is there a bike shedding emoji?
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nyco_
not lighbulb, it's Jabber, it dates from the XXth century
Seve
Correct
ralphm
The rules are here: https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/sponsorship/
MattJ
The irony: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20190912-1568296922-7917.png
nyco_
symbolises presence, which has become overtime a secundary feature
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Ge0rG
I like presents
Seve
dwd: thank you
ralphm
MattJ: https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/1172092470311739392 should help you
dwd
MattJ, Could we sponsor U+FFFD then?
Zash
hah
nyco_
?
ralphm
+1 on selecting the chat bubble, but noting it is also sponsored at Gold level by Discourse
nyco_
+1 chat bubble
Ge0rG
dwd: why not ALM?
nyco_
Discourse, we don't care, these are friends, not competitors
even competitors, we don't care, see above
Seve
Are there any other chat bubble characters? I'm guessing there is no "real time" emoji
Zash
U+1F4AC 💬
U+1F5E8 🗨
U+1F5E9 🗩
U+1F5EA 🗪
U+1F5EB 🗫
dwd
U+003C?
nyco_
we could list candidates, but the chat bubble is pretty obvious and expecetd
Zash
dwd: :D
ralphm
dwd
ralphm
I suggested < and > above
nyco_
given the popularity of XML...
Kev
I suggest (as Dave) that if Board want to do this, just come up with something and do it :)
Zash
Make XML great again!
ralphm
I like 🗪 U+1F5EA
ralphm
Zash: thanks for the swag idea there
Ge0rG
I still think we would have to make it a bikeshed emoji, but there are no bikeshed emojis, and the closest term would be yak shaving, but there are no yak emoji, only water buffalos.
Kev
Ge0rG: Can we propose a new modifier for the water buffalo?
Ge0rG
ralphm: it's nice, except that it's not yet widely supported
Kev
But FWIW, I think ralphm's suggestion of U+1F5EA is cute.
ralphm
Ge0rG: well, we are progressive
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Kev
And it's nice to have something that if we include it in JIDs will break the network ;p
Ge0rG
> Copy
🚩 This Unicode character has no emoji version, meaning this is intended to display only as a black and white glyph on most platforms.
nyco_
ok, it's 16:09, the meeting has been sabotaged by the floor! :)
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ralphm
nyco_: ehem, somebody asked for input by the community
ralphm
But I agree we are done for today.
nyco_
oh...
nyco_
I don't know who
ralphm
Board: let's all think about our preference and hammer it next week.
dwd
For those without a decent font, like me: Unicode Character 'TWO SPEECH BUBBLES' (U+1F5EA) https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1F5EA/index.htm
ralphm: I did see your note among the other ~10k unread messages. ;-) I'll need focused time to spool up all that i18n context again, hopefully tomorrow.
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peter
bbiab
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ralphm
peter: 👍
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Ge0rG
flow: so, what's the official way to process messages? A ChatManager?
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dwd
What's the response to a MAM request which matches no messages?
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409 should this be to board? Is seems there is no place on the website where CC or Creative Commons is mentioned apart in specific places like IPR changelog, or a blog post I can't find the url for
pep.
*sent to board
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pep.
Also as mentioned earlier in the board meeting, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594 DOAP. Maybe Link Mauve can chime in next board meeting if we put it on the agenda
pep.
(Is all that handled by board, or anybody else?)
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dwd
pep., Licensing is Board, DOAP... Might be? Probably is, but they may bump it straight to whoever is looking after the website.
pep.
Who is looking after the website?
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pep.
(Editors surely have commit rights, does that make them "looking after the website"?)
jonas’
I don’t think that editors have commit rights per-se?
Zash
I suspect it's Board
nyco_
pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board
nyco_
thx
pep.
I don't have a trello account, can you put it there in the meantime(?)
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nyco_
you put it there
nyco_
oops
nyco_
my mistake
jonas’
will do
nyco_
> pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board
pep. added PR 409 to the board Trello board
nyco_
forgot the past tense
pep.
oh
nyco_
jonas’ it's added
jonas’
ok
nyco_
sorry
pep.
I didn't, probably somebody did for me
nyco_
I did
pep.
cool thanks
nyco_
thx to you for raising it
pep.
I'm also interested about DOAP
pep.
If you can add that one as well :)
pep.
At least know who's responsability that is
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nyco_
well... not sure
pep.
Can we put this on the agenda so it gets decided who's responsible to say yes or no?
pep.
Also I got myself an account, pep@bouah.net
dwd
Ultimately, everything outside a XEP is Board.
nyco_
pep. I have add_ED_ the item to the board's board
pep.
Ah ok thank you :)
nyco_
dwd : and the board does not know/want, it's for the iteam
Kev
dwd: Well, mostly. Technical is still the domain of Council, even when non-XEP. E.g. technical direction. But mostly.
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pep.
Do I need to be invited to the trello board? Should I be able to write stuff already?
pep.
Trello is fighting me so that I create my first board atm, I don't think I need that
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dwd
ralphm, I have read, and carefully considered, your email to xmpp@ietf.
dwd
ralphm, It raises many interesting challenges.
dwd
ralphm, My response is as follows:
dwd
ralphm, That's a bit shit isn't it?
Zash
Everything is terrible. News at 11.
ralphm
dwd: quite
dwd
ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point?
Zash
Like email?
dwd
ralphm, I've a vague recollection that Kurt Zeilenga suggested it could be used to canonicalize "Western Names" for Chinese people into the proper form, etc.
dwd
Zash, Like email but more so. We'd need a canonicalization service, I imagine.
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Ge0rG
dwd [20:35]:
> ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point?
What if that domain is malicious and sends major violations to us? Not looking at conference.jabber.org at all
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jonas’
Ge0rG, hand it to the SPAM WG?
ralphm
dwd: maybe there's a sane strategy, but I'm unaware of one and it surely isn't documented clearly anywhere.
Ge0rG
jonas’: no, what I mean is: what if it crashes clients or causes nasal demons?
jonas’
that’s client bugs
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Ge0rG
Right, it's presumptuous to assume that the server won't give us JIDs with quotes in them
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jonas’
yes
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jubalh
guys, does https://github.com/dino/dino/commit/e84f2c49567e86d2a261ea264d65c4adc549c930 mean that 'from' always needs to be there?
jonas’
jubalh, it depends on your stream layer
jonas’
on the wire, the @from may also be omitted
jubalh
because we have: https://github.com/profanity-im/profanity/blob/master/src/xmpp/roster.c#L215 right now
jubalh
where we only test if equals barejid if from is there
jonas’
that’s correct
jonas’
if @from is absent, it’s to be treated as equivalent to your account bare JID
jonas’
RFC 6120 something
jonas’
(on inbound stanzas, obviously)
jubalh
alright, thanks!
jonas’
3. When the server generates a stanza from the server for delivery
to the client on behalf of the account of the connected client
(e.g., in the context of data storage services provided by the
server on behalf of the client), the stanza MUST either (a) not
include a 'from' attribute or (b) include a 'from' attribute
whose value is the account's bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>).
jonas’
some client libraries will alias absent @from to the bare JID for easier handling in client code
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Zash
I tried removing redundant @to/@from at the server. IIRC some clients didn't appreciate it.
Ge0rG
jubalh: some servers will do crazy things on messages inside of Carbons, at least for messages to your own JID
Daniel
Yes that check in Dino has the potential to go boom. Because null is valid
Daniel
But most servers do set it
Ge0rG
I wish that'd be something the underlying xmpp would take care of
Daniel
So it's fine ™
ralphm
jonas’: the thing I was talking about with dwd is a bit more involved though, as per that email
Ge0rG
Daniel: send a message to self on prosody 0.10 IIRC
ralphm
Even if server do saner things, you still have issues with differing Unicode versions.
ralphm
s
Zash
Myeah, prosody internally removes @to on stanzas to the account.
Daniel
Ge0rG: yes I'm just saying that this particular check in Dino (around carbons) will be fine most of the time
Daniel
But yeah if you do it properly you also want to accept null
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larma
Daniel, you missed the part where dino will automatically inject the correct value of from if it's messing
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Daniel
Ok
jubalh
jonas’, can I somehow convince you to implement XEP-0392 in Profanity? ;) I heard you did it in poezio
Ge0rG
So I have a JID getter wrapper that gets passed the appropriate default value for where it is called on.