XSF Discussion - 2019-09-12

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  179. derdaniel Good morning
  180. jonas’ good morning
  181. jonas’ are you *the* daniel?
  182. jcbrand No, he's Derda Niel
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  196. jonas’ would the XSF want to host blog posts showcasing e.g. how to configure a specific XMPP setup on xmpp.org?
  197. jonas’ from non-XSF members
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  201. Daniel jonas’, maybe not 'blog post' but actually good tutorials i think are welcome
  202. Daniel re the discussion on the developers foundation at the last summit
  203. Ge0rG maybe we can just retweet them from @xmpp
  204. Daniel when ever i finally have a few days down time i'll actually submit such a tutorial myself
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  210. Daniel here is how Conversations is going to deal with the multiple translation issue from now on: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/commit/9bf5fb98acce52d49326f2f613a99f5b957f95c7
  211. Ge0rG Daniel: got a screenshot of the language tag?
  212. pep. Daniel, is there such a thing as "no language tag"? xml:lang is usually (often? always?) set on the stream
  213. Daniel https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/1172067975354114048
  214. Daniel pep., no tag means stream
  215. Daniel and then Conversations will show that
  216. ralphm I type in Dutch and English depending on which contact I'm talking to. I am Dutch, but have my phone set to English. How do you plan to handle this?
  217. pep. I also do type Japanese on my xml:lang="en" stream fwiw
  218. Daniel ralphm, it's just displaying the tag if there are multiple bodies
  219. Daniel so you will never see that anyway
  220. ralphm I mean, how do I tell my client what I am doing?
  221. pep. Most clients don't or badly support multiple languages anyway
  222. Daniel right. but Conversations will not send multiple. if you have a client that sends multiple it is the responsibilty of that client to set something sane
  223. Daniel i mean if you type a dutch message with Conversations it will only have one body and thus not show any tag on the receiving side
  224. ralphm But even if you have a single body, would you then just not have a language tag, and just have it inherit from the stream?
  225. Ge0rG ralphm: change the PC / mobile phone language setting before talking, reconnect to update the stream language
  226. pep. :D
  227. ralphm Ge0rG: of course
  228. jonas’ 08:50:07 Daniel> pep., no tag means stream
  229. jonas’ Daniel, no tag means the tag on the stanza
  230. pep. well no tag means parent tag
  231. pep. and so on
  232. ralphm Well xml:lang is inherited as defined by the XML spec, so that part was clear to me.
  233. Daniel no single body will not show a tag
  234. Daniel that would be extremly annoying
  235. jonas’ Daniel, overall, that sounds like a very reasonable solution
  236. Ge0rG It's not inherited in most xml parser implementations...
  237. ralphm Ge0rG: yep, it is not easy, and then there's the part where you take a stanza from a stream and send it onwards on another stream. You'd have to take the inherited xml:lang along (just as with namespaces/prefixes).
  238. Daniel (i'll make a note for looking into the inheritence)
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  240. Ge0rG had issues with that hairy part as well... https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/message-getbody-returns-null-if-all-bodies-have-an-xml-lang/83923
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  250. ralphm I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all.
  251. flow Daniel, inheritance applies to other things besides xml:lang too. If you are going to fix it for xml:lang, you may want to make sure that it is also done (or at least possible) for those other things. At least that is what I did in Smack
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  254. flow ralphm, what about e.g. pubsub notifications to a wide audience?
  255. jonas’ flow, what are the other things?
  256. jonas’ I only know of xml:lang
  257. pep. wasn't xml:space a thing?
  258. jonas’ if that isn’t handled by the XML parser you’re screwed anyways (and I don’t think it’s inherited?)
  259. Daniel > I'm still not sure if having multiple language bodies is useful at all. As I argue in the commit message just showing the default without any warning doesn't help because you never know what legacy does out there
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  262. Daniel So whether or not sending this in practice is a good idea is only a secondary question. Your client will have to deal with it either way
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  264. flow jonas’, namespaces and prefixes
  265. jonas’ flow, right, I assume that everyone uses an XML Namespaces compliant parser
  266. jonas’ if you don’t, you’re screwed anyways
  267. jonas’ if you don’t, you’re in a world of pain anyways
  268. flow jonas’, I would't agree with your assumption and conclusion, but yes, makes things easier
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  278. ralphm flow: for pubsub, yes, that might be a good idea. But I thought we were mostly discussing regular messages with the standard body element.
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  281. ralphm For regular conversations, denothing the language is impractical, at most.
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  283. ralphm And at the same time language is hard. Especially if you look at far-east languages. Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, can all be expressed in Unicode. However, due to the so-called han-unification, it means that they all use the same code points with (wildly) different glyphs. So there, denoting which language it is, is crucial for proper display. I am unsure how this actually achieved in platforms.
  284. jonas’ probably from contetx?
  285. jonas’ probably from context?
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  291. Ge0rG right-click, select encoding. Like in the browser in the good old days of koi-8r
  292. ralphm Ge0rG: it has nothing to do with encoding
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  295. ralphm You may want to read about Han Unification.
  296. Ge0rG ralphm: so it would be: right-click, select *de*coding
  297. pep. that's not related to xml:lang anymore is it. Sure language is hard
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  299. Ge0rG ralphm: is it something to be covered by xml:lang regional selectors, or by unicode variant selectors?
  300. ralphm pep.: well, it is related in that you arguably could use xml:lang for selecting which variant glyphs to use.
  301. pep. ralphm, you mean automatically?
  302. ralphm Ge0rG: and yes, variant selectors might help, too
  303. ralphm pep.: maybe there are heuristics, but I don't know
  304. Ge0rG is there an xml:lang that will render all gender-neutral emojis as female?
  305. pep. haha
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  307. pep. Ge0rG, no, there has to be a male modifier alongside!
  308. pep. (that's what I see most often anyway..)
  309. Ge0rG xml:lang="en_US@♀\u1F3FF"
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  311. ralphm Those are ZWJs, not variation selectors, I think?
  312. Ge0rG ralphm: ZWJs are used to append variation selectors, aren't they?
  313. Ge0rG The number of "characters" in a single Emoji is a highly debatable thing.
  314. Ge0rG https://hsivonen.fi/string-length/
  315. ralphm Ge0rG: I am a bit out of my depth here, but I think that using presentation selectors with emoji (with ZWJ) is different from what unicode calls variation selectors.
  316. ralphm I think variation selectors (regarding emoji) is for making a distinction between a monochrome glyph and a colorful one.
  317. Ge0rG ralphm: right; I've totally lost track of the different selectors and how to glue them to the actual Emoji
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  319. ralphm I think this page explains it nicely https://blog.emojipedia.org/emoji-zwj-sequences-three-letters-many-possibilities/
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  321. ralphm It also mentions VS-16, and I was correct, it seems.
  322. Ge0rG Apparently, you just append the fitzpatrick modifier, but use a ZWJ for the gender.
  323. ralphm (under the heading Twitter, with a footnoot 3)
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  325. Ge0rG Now I wonder what happens if you strip out VS-16 from the woman-heart-woman or the facepalm-man emoji.
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  327. ralphm I am still hoping that some day, having WAFFLE + ZWJ + REGIONAL INDICATOR N + NATIONAL INDICATOR L will yield a Stroopwafel.
  328. ralphm You probably get a monochrome heart
  329. ralphm maybe
  330. Ge0rG Inside the colored Emoji?
  331. ralphm this makes it explicit
  332. ralphm I don't know man
  333. Ge0rG Can I use a 💔 in that sequence?
  334. Ge0rG So many questions.
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  336. ralphm https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/1062658994341339137
  337. ralphm I installed a font that supports Unicode 12, now, so I see a waffle at least.
  338. ralphm (I didn't at the time)
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  341. Ge0rG ralphm: does it have the epileptic parrot Emoji?
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  345. Ge0rG (The Epileptic Parrots would make a great metal band name)
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  347. ralphm It is called party parrot
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  349. ralphm https://cultofthepartyparrot.com/
  350. Seve crazy
  351. Ge0rG There used to be a parrot.exe bundled with certain SoundBlaster cards. It had a cult as well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMJ0Ufiilg
  352. Seve :D
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  358. ralphm That is awesome!
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  364. Ge0rG ralphm: there is a bunch of covers and even some live performance videos!
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  429. Daniel am i reading 313 correctly that it doesn’t warn you not to make the dino mistake?
  430. Daniel or am I missing something?
  431. Daniel (matching up query-id and service jid)
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  433. MattJ I don't recall any text along those lines, no
  434. MattJ I agree that evidently it needs to be documented
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  436. MattJ But I would have assumed it was obvious that results would come from the JID you queried
  437. MattJ and not from a different JID
  438. Daniel well…
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  440. MattJ To be clear, I'm 200% in favour of documenting anything that will help people write more secure software by default
  441. MattJ Just explaining why it probably wasn't added in the first place
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  443. Daniel sure. to be clear i found it 100% obvious to match the jid and the query-id
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  445. Ge0rG I found it obvious as well, but my underlying library was playing games with me.
  446. MattJ I think it's obvious to everyone if they read it properly, but it's easy for anyone to forget things, so it's good to make important things explicit
  447. Ge0rG Smack is calling the processMessage() callback on each message, including on messages that contain a MAM payload, and it is actually the straightforward way to just extract and use it there.
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  449. Ge0rG But processMessage() will also get called on all malicious MAM injections.
  450. Ge0rG So even when you are aware of the pitfalls, it's not always obvious
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  455. flow Ge0rG, which call site of (assuming the MessageListener's) processMessage() are you referring to, from MucManager?
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  457. Ge0rG flow: for historical reasons, I'm going through connection.addSyncStanzaListener(..., new StanzaTypeFilter(Message.class))
  458. Ge0rG flow: there was a time when smack was silently removing your listeners on network events, like a disconnect
  459. Ge0rG so I had to work around all those
  460. flow Ge0rG, so you tell smack to invoke a listener for every message and then appear to be complaining about it doing so?
  461. Ge0rG flow: looks like that, yes.
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  465. Ge0rG flow: what's the official way? A ChatManager?
  466. Ge0rG What do I do to track message delivery errors? A ChatMessageDeliveryErrorManager?
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  475. ralphm bangs gavel
  476. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  477. ralphm Who do we have today?
  478. ralphm Seve sent regrets.
  479. Seve I still have network, I can follow for now 👍
  480. dwd You might need to incant their names.
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  482. MattJ Hey
  483. nyco has left
  484. MattJ It worked
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  486. ralphm I didn't even incant, yet?
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  488. nyco test
  489. dwd ralphm, Negative latency.
  490. ralphm dwd: figures
  491. ralphm Guus?
  492. MattJ I assumed you did it out loud
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  494. Seve Guus cannot attend
  495. ralphm Trello as agenda. Any additional items?
  496. MattJ None here
  497. ralphm Seve: I missed that, ok.
  498. nyco re-re-test
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  500. ralphm nyco: works?
  501. pep. There are awaiting PRs in the repo. I was wondering if that should go through board, but I guess I'll poke jonas’ first
  502. nyco_ shaky connection
  503. nyco_ I'm here, but maybe not
  504. ralphm pep.: PRs for what?
  505. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  506. ralphm Who?
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  508. Daniel i can do that
  509. ralphm Thanks Daniel
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  511. ralphm 2. POSS
  512. ralphm nyco put this on the agenda
  513. nyco_ oh yes
  514. nyco_ actually maybe rather SCAM
  515. pep. ralphm, DOAP for example. but ignore it for now, I'll try to get that in the agenda for next week
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  517. ralphm nyco_ that'd be my first guess, yes
  518. nyco_ ok
  519. ralphm 3. ralphm's items
  520. ralphm I have been occupied with other stuff, sorry.
  521. ralphm Will try for next week.,
  522. ralphm 4. GSOC
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  526. ralphm I saw this was discussed last week?
  527. nyco_ yep
  528. nyco_ mentors & flow have no time to write stuff...
  529. ralphm With an apparent action item for commteam to write a blog post
  530. nyco_ commTeam may aggregate students blog posts...
  531. ralphm Can you take it up with commteam?
  532. nyco_ sir, yes sir
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  534. ralphm Much appreciated sir.
  535. ralphm And shine your shoes next time.
  536. Seve :)
  537. nyco_ sir, sorry sir
  538. ralphm 5. Adopt a character
  539. Seve Flow suggested this one
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  542. ralphm Besides the confusing terminology – I assume they mean codepoint – why should we do this?
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  545. nyco_ because it's funny and only 100€
  546. nyco_ we could attract some sympathy
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  548. nyco_ apart from that it is useless, that is why it is absolutely necessary
  549. ralphm Surely funny.
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  551. ralphm I also should ask: should the XSF put money (from its sponsors) in this?
  552. nyco_ good point, but that's only 100€
  553. nyco_ Silver sponsors pay 1k€
  554. Seve I don't really know how much this is known though, but I share the same opinion as Guus and Nyco. We can poll the membership as well, or gather more information on the popuarity of it, etc. Ideally we could promote ourselves a bit as well.
  555. nyco_ we have some money in the bank, right?
  556. flow It's even less, because USD, and tex deducable. And it's for a non-profit org.
  557. nyco_ ok, less than 100€
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  559. nyco_ I think the popularity of this thing has nothing to do with what we can do with it
  560. flow I'd also hoped that one of your sponsors would help us for the silver sponsoring, but even 100$ would be ok and increase the visiblity of the XSF a bit.
  561. nyco_ I have mixed feeling about it, I defend the idea now, but I'm not so sure, just feelings
  562. flow My general feeling is that it could be justified to spend 100$ for this. But I have no detail knowledge about our bank account
  563. Seve We could have the badge on our website which is cool
  564. nyco_ s/badge/character/
  565. nyco_ :)
  566. Seve No, they generate a badge, Nyco
  567. flow We could also ask members to help with the funding, if it's a problem
  568. ralphm I also should point out that Bronze level is not unique, that's only for Silver and Gold.
  569. nyco_ the badges for compliance are coming which will improve our visuals
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  571. flow ralphm, IIRC only gold is unique
  572. flow but silver limited to 5 or so
  573. ralphm oh, ok
  574. flow while bronze is unlimited
  575. nyco_ https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html no bronze
  576. pep. not this bronze
  577. nyco_ oh waut
  578. wurstsalat has left
  579. flow ralphm, re the terminology, "adopt a character" is how unicode.org calls it
  580. wurstsalat has joined
  581. Seve flow: do you know by any chance other communities that did this?
  582. flow but anyhow, appeared like a cheap way to get some visibility and it's for a non-profit that we benefit from, soo
  583. flow Seve, just look at the current sponsors
  584. flow https://www.unicode.org/consortium/adopted-characters.html
  585. Seve Yeah, we are not Adobe :D
  586. j.r has left
  587. ralphm I know of one company that went crazy with this, by the way: https://www.elastic.co/blog/elastic-love-for-the-adopt-a-character-program-and-the-unicode-consortium
  588. nyco_ instead of sponsors money, indeed we can even make a small crowdfunding campaign, which brings visibility as well, allows us to measure somehow our attractiveness
  589. ralphm flow: my 😜 wasn't obvious?
  590. Daniel not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us
  591. neshtaxmpp has joined
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  593. dwd ralphm, Is that the emoji we're adopting?
  594. j.r has left
  595. Seve > not sure how visible you really are among 600 other bronze sponsers. that feels like a go big or go home situation (where you really want gold). and gold feels too expensive for us That's my "issue"
  596. pep. I agree with Daniel
  597. ralphm dwd: this is not my suggestion, no
  598. nyco_ it is not about visibility among sponsors, it is about us generating original content and gettings relayed and engage the communities
  599. ralphm But if you'd want to do it in a big way, you'd adopt < and >
  600. ralphm At Gold level
  601. peter has joined
  602. flow hehe
  603. nyco_ the chat bubble at bronze level will do
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  606. dwd My view, BTW, is that adopting is worth a punt at the $100 mark, and we can make some noise about it ourselves. It's just an interesting talking point at that level, but a talking point is always useful.
  607. flow My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters
  608. nyco_ we communicate on our channels, our competitors don't come on our channels
  609. Seve I like the idea and would love if somebody among us was motivates enough for this, to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character. For me is really a +1, just that I don't find myself inspired enough about the whole unicode world to promote it properly
  610. mukt2 has left
  611. nyco_ also, let's focus on ourselves, our future, how we serve our people
  612. Daniel if you want something to tweet pay for drinks and/or dinner at the next developer sprint and we get you pictures of happy developers developing xmpp
  613. nyco_ looking at competition is a waste of time, makes you feel bad/good
  614. nyco_ that can be done anyway
  615. nyco_ dudes drinking beer is not funny nor attractive btw
  616. Seve > My biggest fear is that one of your competitors shows off by adopting more and expensive characters Surely they can afford it, so yeah, but we would be first as well
  617. zach has left
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  619. pep. > to write a blog post about how much we like making a donation and adopting a character. Tbh I see this easily criticized.. "XMPP don't have anything better to do? They could fix their protocol instead"
  620. pep. (Not by Matrix obviously)
  621. nyco_ there, you named it! :)
  622. nyco_ the same could be said to any char sponsor
  623. pep. nyco_, yes
  624. nyco_ what do people actually say on Elastic for example?
  625. nyco_ quite sure we don't care about _potential_ negativity
  626. mukt2 has joined
  627. dwd pep., You realise people say that stuff *anyway*, right?
  628. Seve Exactly
  629. ralphm indeed
  630. j.r has joined
  631. pep. dwd, yeah
  632. ralphm I see enough support for asking the community what character they'd like to see adopted
  633. nyco_ let's make short blog post, a call for funding, we offer the bubble bronze, that's 100€ we see how the community responds to this we move on, or not if we do, a second blog post to announce the bubble is ours in a funny way
  634. Kev 🐑
  635. ralphm Kev: that's you suggestion?
  636. nyco_ how does it work to collect donations from the community?
  637. Kev ralphm: Well, ask a Welshman :)
  638. ralphm Dude we have Texel
  639. Ge0rG I'm still in favor of the light bulb
  640. Seve I'm not
  641. dwd Guys, I'd humbly suggest you just pick something (chat bubble sounds good) and do it. No real need to ask the community.
  642. Ge0rG is there a bike shedding emoji?
  643. kokonoe has left
  644. nyco_ not lighbulb, it's Jabber, it dates from the XXth century
  645. Seve Correct
  646. ralphm The rules are here: https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/sponsorship/
  647. MattJ The irony: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20190912-1568296922-7917.png
  648. nyco_ symbolises presence, which has become overtime a secundary feature
  649. marc_ has left
  650. Ge0rG I like presents
  651. Seve dwd: thank you
  652. ralphm MattJ: https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/1172092470311739392 should help you
  653. dwd MattJ, Could we sponsor U+FFFD then?
  654. Zash hah
  655. nyco_ ?
  656. ralphm +1 on selecting the chat bubble, but noting it is also sponsored at Gold level by Discourse
  657. nyco_ +1 chat bubble
  658. Ge0rG dwd: why not ALM?
  659. nyco_ Discourse, we don't care, these are friends, not competitors even competitors, we don't care, see above
  660. Seve Are there any other chat bubble characters? I'm guessing there is no "real time" emoji
  661. Zash U+1F4AC 💬 U+1F5E8 🗨 U+1F5E9 🗩 U+1F5EA 🗪 U+1F5EB 🗫
  662. dwd U+003C?
  663. nyco_ we could list candidates, but the chat bubble is pretty obvious and expecetd
  664. Zash dwd: :D
  665. ralphm dwd
  666. ralphm I suggested < and > above
  667. nyco_ given the popularity of XML...
  668. Kev I suggest (as Dave) that if Board want to do this, just come up with something and do it :)
  669. Zash Make XML great again!
  670. ralphm I like 🗪 U+1F5EA
  671. ralphm Zash: thanks for the swag idea there
  672. Ge0rG I still think we would have to make it a bikeshed emoji, but there are no bikeshed emojis, and the closest term would be yak shaving, but there are no yak emoji, only water buffalos.
  673. Kev Ge0rG: Can we propose a new modifier for the water buffalo?
  674. Ge0rG ralphm: it's nice, except that it's not yet widely supported
  675. Kev But FWIW, I think ralphm's suggestion of U+1F5EA is cute.
  676. ralphm Ge0rG: well, we are progressive
  677. COM8 has joined
  678. Kev And it's nice to have something that if we include it in JIDs will break the network ;p
  679. Ge0rG > Copy 🚩 This Unicode character has no emoji version, meaning this is intended to display only as a black and white glyph on most platforms.
  680. nyco_ ok, it's 16:09, the meeting has been sabotaged by the floor! :)
  681. COM8 has left
  682. ralphm nyco_: ehem, somebody asked for input by the community
  683. ralphm But I agree we are done for today.
  684. nyco_ oh...
  685. nyco_ I don't know who
  686. ralphm Board: let's all think about our preference and hammer it next week.
  687. dwd For those without a decent font, like me: Unicode Character 'TWO SPEECH BUBBLES' (U+1F5EA) https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1F5EA/index.htm
  688. ralphm dwd: see my tweet for help
  689. UsL has joined
  690. Ge0rG ralphm: your help is not universally applicabl
  691. Ge0rG ralphm: your help is not universally applicable
  692. ralphm 6. AOB
  693. nyco_ nope
  694. Seve None here
  695. ralphm Ge0rG: you could at least look at it in more detail, and see that the second link actually is for the most part.
  696. ralphm 7. Date of Next
  697. ralphm +1W
  698. nyco_ +1
  699. ralphm 8. Close
  700. ralphm Thanks Daniel for the minutes.
  701. ralphm And thanks everyone else, too.
  702. ralphm bangs gavel
  703. MattJ Thanks
  704. Seve Thank you for the meeting, got a bit off topic though :D
  705. nyco_ thanks, merci !
  706. Daniel what's 'POSS' by the way?
  707. COM8 has joined
  708. dwd Daniel, Paris Open Source Summit
  709. pep. Paris Open-Source Summit
  710. Daniel i see. thanks
  711. Daniel isn’t that scam then?
  712. Daniel shouldn’t we at some point merge scam and comm?
  713. Daniel and make it 'outreach' or something?
  714. pep. Yeah I'm of this opinion as well
  715. dwd Daniel, There's certainly a lot of crossover.
  716. Ge0rG shouldn't that be decided by the respective teams?
  717. COM8 has left
  718. ralphm Well, I generally just do SCAM, and I prefer that
  719. neshtaxmpp has left
  720. ralphm There is no reason why work teams can't work together
  721. MattJ I'd also prefer it to be able to just set these teams a budget, and let them discuss unicode character options for hours
  722. pep. Indeed
  723. Kev That seems rather sensible.
  724. pep. I think it's somewhat wasted time for board
  725. ralphm SCAM already has a budget
  726. MattJ It feels like a lot of trivial stuff trickles up to Board these days
  727. Daniel we have a budget?
  728. pep. TIL
  729. j.r has left
  730. Kev Ooh, XSF trivia Kev didn't know.
  731. MattJ Yes, we set one for SCAM
  732. Daniel oh we do
  733. pep. cool.
  734. peter FYI last night we got paid for GSoC, so we now have an extra $4800.00 in the bank account. Don't spend it all on Unicode characters! ;-)
  735. ralphm It is $1000/yr
  736. zach has left
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  738. ralphm peter: hehe
  739. Zash ralphm: for gold?
  740. COM8 has joined
  741. Daniel now we have to spend it all so we can get it raised for next year (that's how budgets work, right?)
  742. mukt2 has left
  743. pep. indeed
  744. pep. "See, we need moar"
  745. Zash "You have money left? Better reduce next years budget by that then"
  746. Ge0rG that should be enough for Gold on <🗪>
  747. Ge0rG i.e. all three of them
  748. j.r has joined
  749. Ge0rG no wait, just for silver :(
  750. Kev See, *do* need more.
  751. dwd I would actually be very happy to see more money spent on outreach in general.
  752. ralphm Zash: for SCAM. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-September/008648.html
  753. Daniel pep. and I actually wanted to spend money on scam a couple of times. but we didn’t know we had a budget
  754. adiaholic has joined
  755. Zash Ah
  756. Ge0rG dwd: I offer to loudly proclaim "XMPP" in the shopping mall in my home city for just 250$/hr
  757. mukt2 has joined
  758. pep. I'm not sure I would do that even at this price
  759. COM8 has left
  760. ralphm Daniel: well, every time people have asked about money (like for stickers) I said: yes, send the bill to peter
  761. MattJ pep., words true of real XMPP developer :)
  762. pep. :D
  763. Ge0rG pep.: I was trying to think of the lowest-effort thing that qualifies as "outreach for money" that doesn't immediately qualify as a SCAM
  764. peter has left
  765. Daniel ralphm, sure. i just wasn’t really aware that those came out of the scam budget
  766. kokonoe has joined
  767. dwd Ge0rG, Unicode characters?
  768. Zash Let's start a "sponsor an xmlns" campain! /notentirelyserious
  769. Ge0rG dwd: this results in being placed on some well-hidden web-page. We can have that already for free.
  770. ralphm Daniel: well, we haven't really been strict and make a financial overview
  771. ralphm most of the money is spent on the Summit / FOSDEM and that $1000 is a nice target
  772. winfried has left
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  774. jonas’ 14:03:38 dwd> MattJ, Could we sponsor U+FFFD then?
  775. ralphm stpeter: if you are kinda here, have you seen my mail over at xmpp@ietf.org regarding Unicode versions?
  776. jonas’ I literally laughed out loudly, in a fiendish laugh. Thanks for that one.
  777. andy has left
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  779. dwd ralphm, I don't see it. When?
  780. Ge0rG dwd: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI
  781. COM8 has joined
  782. dwd I've found it now.
  783. COM8 has left
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  792. ralphm dwd: wow, if you missed it then I guess nobody's read it
  793. neshtaxmpp has joined
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  797. dwd ralphm, I have a eyeball-meltingly large inbox, mind.
  798. COM8 has joined
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  801. ralphm Select All, Mark as Read.
  802. Zash Select all, Archive.
  803. COM8 has joined
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  806. Ge0rG Read Mail Really Fast.
  807. Zash Inbox Zero Archivement
  808. Ge0rG > =inbox [Msgs:163039 New:99724 Flag:1477 Post:11 Inc:20 7281M]
  809. peter ralphm: I did see your note among the other ~10k unread messages. ;-) I'll need focused time to spool up all that i18n context again, hopefully tomorrow.
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  813. peter bbiab
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  817. ralphm peter: 👍
  818. COM8 has left
  819. Ge0rG flow: so, what's the official way to process messages? A ChatManager?
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  839. dwd What's the response to a MAM request which matches no messages?
  840. zach has left
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  842. Zash `<iq type='result'><{urn:xmpp:mam:2}fin complete='true'/></iq>` ?
  843. jubalh has joined
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  845. Zash {rsm}set/count=0 maybe
  846. winfried has left
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  848. Zash Don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere
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  855. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409 should this be to board? Is seems there is no place on the website where CC or Creative Commons is mentioned apart in specific places like IPR changelog, or a blog post I can't find the url for
  856. pep. *sent to board
  857. kokonoe has joined
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  860. pep. Also as mentioned earlier in the board meeting, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594 DOAP. Maybe Link Mauve can chime in next board meeting if we put it on the agenda
  861. pep. (Is all that handled by board, or anybody else?)
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  869. dwd pep., Licensing is Board, DOAP... Might be? Probably is, but they may bump it straight to whoever is looking after the website.
  870. pep. Who is looking after the website?
  871. kokonoe has left
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  874. pep. (Editors surely have commit rights, does that make them "looking after the website"?)
  875. jonas’ I don’t think that editors have commit rights per-se?
  876. Zash I suspect it's Board
  877. nyco_ pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board
  878. nyco_ thx
  879. pep. I don't have a trello account, can you put it there in the meantime(?)
  880. winfried has left
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  882. nyco_ you put it there
  883. nyco_ oops
  884. nyco_ my mistake
  885. jonas’ will do
  886. nyco_ > pep. add PR 409 to the board Trello board pep. added PR 409 to the board Trello board
  887. nyco_ forgot the past tense
  888. pep. oh
  889. nyco_ jonas’ it's added
  890. jonas’ ok
  891. nyco_ sorry
  892. pep. I didn't, probably somebody did for me
  893. nyco_ I did
  894. pep. cool thanks
  895. nyco_ thx to you for raising it
  896. pep. I'm also interested about DOAP
  897. pep. If you can add that one as well :)
  898. pep. At least know who's responsability that is
  899. kokonoe has left
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  901. nyco_ well... not sure
  902. pep. Can we put this on the agenda so it gets decided who's responsible to say yes or no?
  903. pep. Also I got myself an account, pep@bouah.net
  904. dwd Ultimately, everything outside a XEP is Board.
  905. nyco_ pep. I have add_ED_ the item to the board's board
  906. pep. Ah ok thank you :)
  907. nyco_ dwd : and the board does not know/want, it's for the iteam
  908. Kev dwd: Well, mostly. Technical is still the domain of Council, even when non-XEP. E.g. technical direction. But mostly.
  909. kokonoe has left
  910. pep. Do I need to be invited to the trello board? Should I be able to write stuff already?
  911. pep. Trello is fighting me so that I create my first board atm, I don't think I need that
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  990. dwd ralphm, I have read, and carefully considered, your email to xmpp@ietf.
  991. dwd ralphm, It raises many interesting challenges.
  992. dwd ralphm, My response is as follows:
  993. dwd ralphm, That's a bit shit isn't it?
  994. Zash Everything is terrible. News at 11.
  995. ralphm dwd: quite
  996. dwd ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point?
  997. Zash Like email?
  998. dwd ralphm, I've a vague recollection that Kurt Zeilenga suggested it could be used to canonicalize "Western Names" for Chinese people into the proper form, etc.
  999. dwd Zash, Like email but more so. We'd need a canonicalization service, I imagine.
  1000. Wojtek has left
  1001. Ge0rG dwd [20:35]: > ralphm, Didn't we discuss having a domain fully responsible for its own canonicalization at one point? What if that domain is malicious and sends major violations to us? Not looking at conference.jabber.org at all
  1002. zach has left
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  1005. jonas’ Ge0rG, hand it to the SPAM WG?
  1006. ralphm dwd: maybe there's a sane strategy, but I'm unaware of one and it surely isn't documented clearly anywhere.
  1007. Ge0rG jonas’: no, what I mean is: what if it crashes clients or causes nasal demons?
  1008. jonas’ that’s client bugs
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  1011. Ge0rG Right, it's presumptuous to assume that the server won't give us JIDs with quotes in them
  1012. lumi has left
  1013. jonas’ yes
  1014. lumi has joined
  1015. jubalh guys, does https://github.com/dino/dino/commit/e84f2c49567e86d2a261ea264d65c4adc549c930 mean that 'from' always needs to be there?
  1016. jonas’ jubalh, it depends on your stream layer
  1017. jonas’ on the wire, the @from may also be omitted
  1018. jubalh because we have: https://github.com/profanity-im/profanity/blob/master/src/xmpp/roster.c#L215 right now
  1019. jubalh where we only test if equals barejid if from is there
  1020. jonas’ that’s correct
  1021. jonas’ if @from is absent, it’s to be treated as equivalent to your account bare JID
  1022. jonas’ RFC 6120 something
  1023. jonas’ (on inbound stanzas, obviously)
  1024. jubalh alright, thanks!
  1025. jonas’ 3. When the server generates a stanza from the server for delivery to the client on behalf of the account of the connected client (e.g., in the context of data storage services provided by the server on behalf of the client), the stanza MUST either (a) not include a 'from' attribute or (b) include a 'from' attribute whose value is the account's bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>).
  1026. jonas’ some client libraries will alias absent @from to the bare JID for easier handling in client code
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  1033. Zash I tried removing redundant @to/@from at the server. IIRC some clients didn't appreciate it.
  1034. Ge0rG jubalh: some servers will do crazy things on messages inside of Carbons, at least for messages to your own JID
  1035. Daniel Yes that check in Dino has the potential to go boom. Because null is valid
  1036. Daniel But most servers do set it
  1037. Ge0rG I wish that'd be something the underlying xmpp would take care of
  1038. Daniel So it's fine ™
  1039. ralphm jonas’: the thing I was talking about with dwd is a bit more involved though, as per that email
  1040. Ge0rG Daniel: send a message to self on prosody 0.10 IIRC
  1041. ralphm Even if server do saner things, you still have issues with differing Unicode versions.
  1042. ralphm s
  1043. Zash Myeah, prosody internally removes @to on stanzas to the account.
  1044. Daniel Ge0rG: yes I'm just saying that this particular check in Dino (around carbons) will be fine most of the time
  1045. Daniel But yeah if you do it properly you also want to accept null
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  1047. larma Daniel, you missed the part where dino will automatically inject the correct value of from if it's messing
  1048. mukt2 has joined
  1049. Daniel Ok
  1050. jubalh jonas’, can I somehow convince you to implement XEP-0392 in Profanity? ;) I heard you did it in poezio
  1051. Ge0rG So I have a JID getter wrapper that gets passed the appropriate default value for where it is called on.
  1052. larma https://github.com/dino/dino/blob/master/xmpp-vala/src/module/stanza.vala#L19
  1053. larma It even has a comment with reference to the RFC \o/
  1054. kokonoe has left
  1055. jonas’ ralphm, "that email"?
  1056. kokonoe has joined
  1057. Zash https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI ?
  1058. jonas’ right, I thought there was another email I was missing about solutions to the mess
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  1061. Zash jonas’, the one I'm going to write about potato farming? 😉
  1062. jonas’ Zash, that sounds like a plan
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  1064. ralphm No 🥔 no 🍟. Yay!
  1065. ralphm Moar 🥔
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  1075. Zash Thread relevant for retractions: https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2019/09/09/2
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  1080. Zash Brilliant. ß is mapped to ss by stringprep. Which is fine with IDNA 2003 because it does the same. However, in IDNA 2008 those are distinct.
  1081. Daniel what about ẞ?
  1082. Zash Verboten!
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  1084. Zash nameprep (configured to allow unassigned) just passes it trough
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  1086. Zash IDNA 2003 doesn't like it IDNA 2008 maps it to 'ss'
  1087. Zash $ lua -e 'print(require"util.encodings".idna.to_ascii("ẞß"))' xn--ss-hia
  1088. Ge0rG ẞash.
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  1090. Daniel well mapping ẞ to what ever ß maps to makes sense. mapping it to ſs would also be an option I guess
  1091. Zash but
  1092. Zash ß maps to ß
  1093. Daniel someone should probably have a talk with them
  1094. jubalh has left
  1095. Daniel about our beloved s'es
  1096. moparisthebest I vaguely recall reading about the same issue with domain names right?
  1097. Daniel idna2008 has a compat mode because of that
  1098. Zash It does
  1099. Daniel more or less specifically because of the ß->ss issue
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  1102. Zash Yeah, but the non-compat mode seems to be moot due to stringprep already doing ß→ss
  1103. Daniel allowing anything but ascii was a mistake
  1104. jubalh has joined
  1105. Zash Incidentally, I haven't spotted any non-ascii domains as active peers
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  1108. Zash So at least for domains maybe we don't have to worry too much.
  1109. Daniel someone on the Conversations had plä.net (or something) once
  1110. Daniel which triggered multiple things in Conversations
  1111. Daniel including cert validation and stuff
  1112. Zash There's nödåtgärd.se which was around when Prosody originally gained IDNA code, and maybe even the reason for it.
  1113. pep. Zash, maybe that's because they can't initiate anything with you that you haven't noticed them :P
  1114. moparisthebest > allowing anything but ascii was a mistake
  1115. moparisthebest haha yes
  1116. Zash But punycode
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