Jens KorteHi! Is there a protocol or standard for connecting a standalone XMMP server to the Internet using USB sticks? I thought of poor areas in the world or Cuba, where people have a traditional grown "offline network".
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ralphmJens Korte: I'm not aware of something fitting that description. How would this work?
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Jens Korteralphm, I don't know with a new connection type between servers? I don't know the protocols
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ralphmWhat I mean is: how is it supposed to work from a user's perspective?
Danielmaybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach
ralphmWell, I am from the time where BBS and UUCP were still the ways to share messages.
ralphmAnd there's nothing about XMPP that requires instant communication patterns. Especially for messages stanzas.
ralphmThere are people working on things like https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/ which are fully decentralized and can fall back to sneaketnet, but that's not based on XMPP.
ralphmBut a UUCP like model for XMPP seems feasible.
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Jens KorteDaniel, video chat isn't mesaging and sneakernet isn't instant ;) I was just wondering about offline support...
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jonas’Jens Korte, maybe look towards the Disruption/Delay Tolerant Networking community
jonas’XMPP-over-DTN hasn’t been explored much yet to my knowledge, but I’d be surprised if it had not been explored *at all*
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ralphmEspecially because we have entities working for military organisations.
ralphmAnd then there is the ancient https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html, which I don't necessarily recommend, but might address part of this.
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Jens KorteI had a look at XEP 0013 before, but that is not the way I mean. Scuttlebutt is new to me and quite interesting. DTN is a quite big and solid thing. I can use it only, if it is used by a software. Thx for that.
ralphmThere's some related projects around scuttlebutt
Jens KorteI will have a look at it later. I already found it in F-Droid
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moparisthebestJens Korte: I thought Cuba had it's own internet?
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pep.> Daniel> maybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach
XMPP is broader than just instant messaging fortunately, (even if there aren't many (open) implementations to show this off, they are not inexistent)
ralphmTotally.
moparisthebesthttps://gizmodo.com/cubas-illegal-underground-internet-is-thriving-1681797114 this kind of thing
moparisthebestWhich of course XMPP works fine on, doesn't need internet, just some type of connectivity
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Ge0rGDaniel: you should @xmpp retweet https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/1173175743209189376 as well
Danieli did
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Ge0rGAh, great. Didn't see it.
moparisthebestGuess Twitter doesn't have reliable delivery either
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SeveDaniel: you don't want it to be recorded or is the venue?
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DanielI don't
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Ge0rGThat's a bit surprising. May we know why?
DanielI think the format of Meetup (which I want to keep closer to 'friends hanging out') don’t go well with recording it. also I don’t want the pressure of having to live up to the level of quality that is required for permanently putting something on the internet.
Danielalso if anything we'd only have audio
Danieli think there is a good chance that a similar talk will be given again in a more appropriate setting with better recording
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Ge0rGAh!
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SurjoHello
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Jens Kortemoparisthebest, "“El Paquete”, a sneaker-net distribution of media files that’s passed around the country on USB sticks and hard drives, and which may be Cuba’s largest source of private employment." https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8740-the_internet_in_cuba_a_story_of_community_resilience#t=2 as of 12-2017. And yes there are two other network mentioned on that page, that are not sneaker-networks.
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moparisthebestThat's neat, though I feel like XMPP would be totally unsuitable for that, I could be wrong
jonas’at the point of doing stuff like sneakernet or DTN, you’d do away with the XML stream and just wrap stanzas in bundles and send them through the network.
jonas’the only thing left then is how to handle authn
Ge0rGYou need a very different type of user identity and routing mechanism. You could use xmpp message elements for the payload, but why?
jonas’Ge0rG, for s2s from mars to earth
jonas’you don’t want to do TCP over that type of link
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ZashFancy stuff where you gotta take the positions of heavenly bodies into account. And sometimes wait for months because your destination is blocked by the sun or something.
jonas’eeyup
Ge0rGIn Cuba?
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DanielYou want sneaker net between Mars and earth? That's some insane RTT
ZashThat's basically DTN for ya
ZashIf you can handle that then you can handle dealing with the positions of cargo ships.
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ralphmjonas’: bundles? Like, say, XML documents?
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ZashStream bundles?
jonas’ralphm, bundle as in Bundle Protocol
jonas’RFC 5050
ralphmAh
Jens KorteI can't say any useful to DTN/sneakernet, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
ZashNot totally unlike SMTP I'm guessing?
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Ge0rGjonas’: tl;dr, are the bundles signed by the sending entity?
jonas’Ge0rG, I don’t think so in plain RFC 5050
jonas’the WIP next iteration of the bundle protocol (Bundle Protocol 7) has some security things
ZashWho would MITM you in space?
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jonas’ah no, neither, so that must’ve been some extension to the protocol
Ge0rGYeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP.
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Daniel> Yeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP.
Ge0rG: Please give proper trigger warnings before making such a 'joke'
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Ge0rGDaniel: the <s/> stands for "serious"! 🤪
Ge0rGLast Friday I had a chat with the founders of a medical startup. They can't afford real developers, so they look for some students instead...
Ge0rGI'm not making this up.
Danieli was that student
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Jens KorteZash, I guess the NSA, Russia or China will do the MITM just to make sure they get all the raw data. Am I right, a company from israel was the cheapest provider for internet in libanon? The same will happen in space with DTN, but instead of cheapest it will be because of fastest or most reliable.
rionJens Korte: also Kazakhstan officially does MITM for all traffic afaik. They force people to install special certificates to avoid warnings
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Jens Korterion, yes I have read about it at heise.de (german)
XSF Discussion - 2019-09-15