XSF Discussion - 2019-09-15

  1. Jens Korte

    Hi! Is there a protocol or standard for connecting a standalone XMMP server to the Internet using USB sticks? I thought of poor areas in the world or Cuba, where people have a traditional grown "offline network".

  2. ralphm

    Jens Korte: I'm not aware of something fitting that description. How would this work?

  3. Jens Korte

    ralphm, I don't know with a new connection type between servers? I don't know the protocols

  4. ralphm

    What I mean is: how is it supposed to work from a user's perspective?

  5. Daniel

    maybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach

  6. ralphm

    Well, I am from the time where BBS and UUCP were still the ways to share messages.

  7. ralphm

    And there's nothing about XMPP that requires instant communication patterns. Especially for messages stanzas.

  8. ralphm

    There are people working on things like https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/ which are fully decentralized and can fall back to sneaketnet, but that's not based on XMPP.

  9. ralphm

    But a UUCP like model for XMPP seems feasible.

  10. Jens Korte

    Daniel, video chat isn't mesaging and sneakernet isn't instant ;) I was just wondering about offline support...

  11. jonas’

    Jens Korte, maybe look towards the Disruption/Delay Tolerant Networking community

  12. jonas’

    XMPP-over-DTN hasn’t been explored much yet to my knowledge, but I’d be surprised if it had not been explored *at all*

  13. ralphm

    Especially because we have entities working for military organisations.

  14. ralphm

    And then there is the ancient https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html, which I don't necessarily recommend, but might address part of this.

  15. Jens Korte

    I had a look at XEP 0013 before, but that is not the way I mean. Scuttlebutt is new to me and quite interesting. DTN is a quite big and solid thing. I can use it only, if it is used by a software. Thx for that.

  16. ralphm

    There's some related projects around scuttlebutt

  17. Jens Korte

    I will have a look at it later. I already found it in F-Droid

  18. moparisthebest

    Jens Korte: I thought Cuba had it's own internet?

  19. pep.

    > Daniel> maybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach XMPP is broader than just instant messaging fortunately, (even if there aren't many (open) implementations to show this off, they are not inexistent)

  20. ralphm


  21. moparisthebest

    https://gizmodo.com/cubas-illegal-underground-internet-is-thriving-1681797114 this kind of thing

  22. moparisthebest

    Which of course XMPP works fine on, doesn't need internet, just some type of connectivity

  23. Ge0rG

    Daniel: you should @xmpp retweet https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/1173175743209189376 as well

  24. Daniel

    i did

  25. Ge0rG

    Ah, great. Didn't see it.

  26. moparisthebest

    Guess Twitter doesn't have reliable delivery either

  27. Seve

    Daniel: you don't want it to be recorded or is the venue?

  28. Daniel

    I don't

  29. Ge0rG

    That's a bit surprising. May we know why?

  30. Daniel

    I think the format of Meetup (which I want to keep closer to 'friends hanging out') don’t go well with recording it. also I don’t want the pressure of having to live up to the level of quality that is required for permanently putting something on the internet.

  31. Daniel

    also if anything we'd only have audio

  32. Daniel

    i think there is a good chance that a similar talk will be given again in a more appropriate setting with better recording

  33. Ge0rG


  34. Surjo


  35. Surjo


  36. Jens Korte

    moparisthebest, "“El Paquete”, a sneaker-net distribution of media files that’s passed around the country on USB sticks and hard drives, and which may be Cuba’s largest source of private employment." https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8740-the_internet_in_cuba_a_story_of_community_resilience#t=2 as of 12-2017. And yes there are two other network mentioned on that page, that are not sneaker-networks.

  37. moparisthebest

    That's neat, though I feel like XMPP would be totally unsuitable for that, I could be wrong

  38. jonas’

    at the point of doing stuff like sneakernet or DTN, you’d do away with the XML stream and just wrap stanzas in bundles and send them through the network.

  39. jonas’

    the only thing left then is how to handle authn

  40. Ge0rG

    You need a very different type of user identity and routing mechanism. You could use xmpp message elements for the payload, but why?

  41. jonas’

    Ge0rG, for s2s from mars to earth

  42. jonas’

    you don’t want to do TCP over that type of link

  43. Zash

    Fancy stuff where you gotta take the positions of heavenly bodies into account. And sometimes wait for months because your destination is blocked by the sun or something.

  44. jonas’


  45. Ge0rG

    In Cuba?

  46. Daniel

    You want sneaker net between Mars and earth? That's some insane RTT

  47. Zash

    That's basically DTN for ya

  48. Zash

    If you can handle that then you can handle dealing with the positions of cargo ships.

  49. ralphm

    jonas’: bundles? Like, say, XML documents?

  50. Zash

    Stream bundles?

  51. jonas’

    ralphm, bundle as in Bundle Protocol

  52. jonas’

    RFC 5050

  53. ralphm


  54. Jens Korte

    I can't say any useful to DTN/sneakernet, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers

  55. Zash

    Not totally unlike SMTP I'm guessing?

  56. Ge0rG

    jonas’: tl;dr, are the bundles signed by the sending entity?

  57. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I don’t think so in plain RFC 5050

  58. jonas’

    the WIP next iteration of the bundle protocol (Bundle Protocol 7) has some security things

  59. Zash

    Who would MITM you in space?

  60. jonas’

    ah no, neither, so that must’ve been some extension to the protocol

  61. Ge0rG

    Yeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP.

  62. Daniel

    > Yeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP. Ge0rG: Please give proper trigger warnings before making such a 'joke'

  63. Ge0rG

    Daniel: the <s/> stands for "serious"! 🤪

  64. Ge0rG

    Last Friday I had a chat with the founders of a medical startup. They can't afford real developers, so they look for some students instead...

  65. Ge0rG

    I'm not making this up.

  66. Daniel

    i was that student

  67. Jens Korte

    Zash, I guess the NSA, Russia or China will do the MITM just to make sure they get all the raw data. Am I right, a company from israel was the cheapest provider for internet in libanon? The same will happen in space with DTN, but instead of cheapest it will be because of fastest or most reliable.

  68. rion

    Jens Korte: also Kazakhstan officially does MITM for all traffic afaik. They force people to install special certificates to avoid warnings

  69. Jens Korte

    rion, yes I have read about it at heise.de (german)