I can add a CC by-sa (latest) in each newsletter individually, at no cost
Seve
I remember something happened and that PR had to wait for some reason, but can't remember why
nyco_
there is no legal terms, nor any terms of service
Guus
From what I read in the PR, Goffi wants the newsletter to explicitly state that it's CC By-SA licensed, so that its content can be translated shared on other sites.
nyco_
IANAL
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MattJ
I see no problem with that in itself
Guus
JC mentions that the entire website probably _should_ be under this license anyway
Seve
We may just be missing to add that on every newsletter and that would be it?
nyco_
for the newsletter, on my side, no worry to make it CC by-sa explicity, for all starting from now, or individually
Guus
Goffi mentions that it still is not, and by adding the license at least to the newsletter, the problem thta he's having would be fixed.
nyco_
that's a micro issue, what about the macro ?
MattJ
Well, we can first add it to the newsletter, and then resolve the website
Guus
If we at one point had the website under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ and the license reference got lost during a website makeover, I have no issue in adding https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ to each newsletter.
MattJ
I think allowing distribution and translation of the newsletter is higher priority
2.5 is what we had. I don't know what the differences are between 2.5 and 4.0
nyco_
so it this PR obsolete now? in which case we can reject it
nyco_
1.5
nyco_
differences between 4.0 and 2.5 is 1.5 :)
nyco_
you're welcome... :/
MattJ
Guus, what evidence do you have that 2.5 is what we had?
Guus
JC's comment in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409#issuecomment-369945588
MattJ
Right, I was looking for more
Guus
pulling up wayback machine now...
Seve
Like an evidence? :D
MattJ
In the interests of getting things moving, I motion that we publish the newsletter as cc-by-sa in future, and tackle the larger issue of the website separately
Guus
agreed
nyco_
ok, all newsletters from now on are under latest CC by-sa
anybody against that?
nyco_
+1 for that motion
MattJ
Seems like we're in agreement - Seve?
nyco_
I raise the question: what version
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nyco_
I motion "the latest"
Seve
Just thinking about if the XSF apart from the author could have the rights?
Seve
but I'm totally +1 with it
MattJ
4.0 seems fine to me, unless someone has a reason to object
nyco_
we are pointing to news, that we write, there will be some copy-pasting though, which is legally authorised
Guus
I don't have a reason to object.
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Guus
Can't find a reference to an exact version in the wayback machine on short notice (it ... is .. slow).
nyco_
no, not 4.0, but "latest", which means when a new version is published, we auto-upgrade
MattJ
nyco_, I'm not sure you can just do that
nyco_
you can
Guus
let's not auto-upgrade. We don't know what we're agreeing to, by doing that.
MattJ
or want to
MattJ
Right
nyco_
I got lawyers in my coworking space, I'll confirm
nyco_
then when a new version of the license is published, we raise the question again
Seve
cool
nyco_
or we can just trust the license issuer to be just more competent than we are
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MattJ
Ok, I'll respond to the PR with our feedback
nyco_
thx MattJ
Seve
Thank you
MattJ
1.2) DOAP
Guus
so we agreed to not auto-update?
Guus
(for the minutes?)
Seve
No auto-upgrade, no
Link Mauve
Hi, I’m here to answer any question you have about 1.2.
MattJ
Guus, the PR is for 4.0 on the newsletter, so I think that's what we will go with for now
Guus
ok
MattJ
if anyone objects, shout, but I think that can be addressed separately
MattJ
DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409/files
MattJ
Nope
MattJ
Copy/paste fail. DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594
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Guus
I'm having concerns
MattJ
Technical or philosophical?
nyco_
I have just asked my lawyers: you can publish content under "CC by-sa or later"
nyco_
> Technical or philosophical?
can it be another option?
MattJ
nyco_, thanks for the info
Guus
- DOAP as a protocol seems pretty new/unused - no updates in its git history for over a year. Is this the right tool to be used for this?
- Adding more details to software listing on the XSF website is a slippery slope, as discussed before.
- Asking for DOAP data would add hurdles for new projects to be listed - some projects already don't take the effort to do this simple listing - I don't want to make this more difficult.
MattJ
1) doesn't concern me. I think the alternative is making up something of our own, which has zero tooling/etc. - DOAP is RDF, which has a bunch of existing tooling and projects around it
Link Mauve
- DOAP is used at least by CPAN (Perl repository) and PyPI (Python repository), I expect other ones too, and there were minimal additions I had to add to support our usecase.
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Seve
DOAP data should be optional for new projects (or any projects) to be listed. The more you provide, the better. But that should not block
Link Mauve
AppStream might be another to look into.
nyco_
DOAP could structure the community a lot, as well as contribute to SEO
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MattJ
2) I'm curious what the concrete problems are here. In the past discussions have been about how we can objectively verify someone's support for a certain protocol. Here they are self-reporting, and we just state that
MattJ
3) it's optional, not a hurdle
Guus
3) if some projects do it, your listing has to do it to 'keep up'
Link Mauve
For your third point Guus, I expect DOAP to allow relaxing the renewal requirement, for instance if a project just got a new release in the past year we could automatically consider it as the most recent renewal and avoid the manual one.
MattJ
Guus, and I'm fine with that - I think it's a great thing for a project to have
Guus
Link Mauve good point.
Seve
Guus, that means more incentive for projects to become better
nyco_
this specific DOAP format may seem overkill though
Link Mauve
The exact rules are of course to be discussed.
MattJ
nyco_, I agree, but it can be automated
MattJ
and I don't see a better/simpler format than someone we just cook up ourselves
Link Mauve
nyco_, the main reason I went for this format was that it was already used elsewhere, had existing parsers, and so that other people could use them for different purposes than what we originally thought about.
MattJ
*than something
Seve
In this example you can see here: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-0048.xml
Where it says "Software support", I would appreciate a lot a link or a comment to a page explaining how this data/support info is obtained, so we state it is not crafted by us
nyco_
Link Mauve : that's what I used "may"
Link Mauve
This isn’t just about xmpp.org, but for any consumer to derive data from our list of XMPP software.
Guus
Seve that link doesn't work for me.
nyco_
Link Mauve : good point, that's why I mentioned SEO
Seve
https://i.imgur.com/lx9zSpJ.png
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Link Mauve
Guus, Chromium is known to have issues with running JavaScript on XSLT-transformed pages, you may prefer to use a pre-rendered page.
Guus
Do we want to apply this before the spec has been ironed out?
Seve
Guus, maybe you can check my screenshot
Guus
Link Mauve I got a 404 actually, but nevermind. Seve's screenshot is useful.
Guus
I quite dislike that XEP example, by the way
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nyco_
that software support table is awesome
MattJ
because?
Guus
I'd hate for discussions around 'why is my implementation not listed'
MattJ
"because you didn't provide a DOAP file"
Seve
Because you didn't provide
MattJ
"here's how"
Seve
ok MattJ, you win this time
Seve
That's why I'm saying we need that other page explaining this
Link Mauve
Seve, good point, we can add any such link once we have one written. :)
Guus
I don't like how that almost forces people to use this at all.
nyco_
I don't get that "force", please explain?
MattJ
Guus, it doesn't force, but obviously if they do this then they benefit
MattJ
and I really see no problem - why wouldn't you do it?
MattJ
It's not like we're asking for money
Seve
I have some other frontend/interface points to discuss, but maybe that should go into another conversation
Guus
By not complying, you're at a disadvantage.
MattJ
So why not comply?
Link Mauve
Guus, the idea was to do it similarly to the w3c HTML5 pages, which for each section (for us each XEP I guess? At least for now) you can see which browsers support the feature.
MattJ
What are the barriers?
nyco_
I share Guus' concerns about putting pressure on software projects owners, who are already struggling
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MattJ
nyco_, this removes the annual renewal requirement already, so they can spend their time elsewhere
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Link Mauve
We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website.
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Guus
why not comply: time/money and a spec that's not ironed out.
Seve
To me, that gives you more reasons to keep up with your project. I find it a bit "weird" to have a client but not a list of what do you support, etc
nyco_
MattJ there is still non-code maintenance to be done
Seve
We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website.
Problem solved!✎
Link Mauve
Guus, note that this PR doesn’t modify the XEP page at all atm.
moparisthebest
https://caniuse.com/ ?
Link Mauve
It only adds the data to Pelican for further use.
Seve
>We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website.
Problem solved! ✏
Link Mauve
moparisthebest, this kind of website could perfectly use the DOAP data we will gather.
nyco_
Link Mauve : agree a form can simplify people's lives
Guus
Link Mauve true.
Link Mauve
nyco_, I can add that as an actionable.
MattJ
I am strongly strongly in favour of this, and we can only make it better and easier over time
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nyco_
moparisthebest : and the shiny new https://www.caniemail.com
MattJ
I see absolutely no reason why any project would be barred from participating
Seve
I feel the same excitement!
nyco_
we need our own canixmpp.com
Link Mauve
That was the reason I proposed this PR as early, so we can discuss it and figure out the points to be resolved before going full out with it. :)
nyco_
yeah, looks like we can build so much with only the small adoption of a format
MattJ
The meeting is over time. Do we want to vote on approving the PR in this meeting, or provide some actionable feedback on it?
nyco_
looks like we have a consensus that DOAP can be cool
nyco_
we have not agreed on the details and next steps yet
nyco_
that's my feeling
Seve
I would like to ask for some frontend tweaks if possible (in the sense of, if those can be done by somebody)
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MattJ
Seve, there is no frontend yet (in this PR)
Seve
Ah, right hah :)
MattJ
This is just some tooling to fetch the data
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Seve
I went too far
MattJ
and then more PRs can follow, which actually do something with it
Link Mauve
Seve, note that there is no frontend work in this PR, it only adds a "doap" entry for each software we have in our lists, and a simple Python parser for them.
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Guus
If the question is only to add a link to software listing on our website (but I think that the PR also includes some kind of script?), I'd not object to just that.
Guus
what does the parser do?
nyco_
so let's continue that discussion on the next board meeting?
Seve
I would be ok with voting for this PR
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MattJ
Yeah, I think we're going to have to call this one unfinished. I have another meeting to attend in a few.
Link Mauve
Guus, it parses a DOAP file and adds the data to Pelican’s internal structs, for further use.
MattJ
Feel free to continue discussion afterwards
Link Mauve
I could remove it from the PR if you want to only add the doap URLs.
Thank you everybody! thanks Link Mauve for being present, that helps a lot
Seve
and Guus for the minutes, we love you!
Link Mauve
And to you all for running the board. :)
Guus
You should run next year!
Guus
see: council and board elections! 🙂
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Daniel
i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful (and somewhat overdue) for users. it is fine to get your weekend project listed on their. but users need to be able to quickly figure out in what state a client is before clicking the link. and doap files seem to be a good way to figure that out automatically.
also the reverse thing (show which software supports a given XEP) is nice as well. especially for libraries. (the list should be less in your face and also collapsible; but that's details)
Link Mauve
The design of the table in the XEP was edhelas’s work, kudos to him for that, but that’s a first attempt.
Link Mauve
We obviously can improve on it. :)
Link Mauve
Now that Pelican has access to the status of the XEPs per client, we could automatically select the relevant compliance suite badge.
Daniel
peli-who?
Link Mauve
The website generator used for xmpp.org.
Daniel
i see
Daniel
yes that would be super helpful. i mean right now the user will have to click through each website to find something that is actually good
Daniel
it might also bring more visibility to the compliance suits themselves
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Link Mauve
sonny, you may be interested, ↑
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sonny
Link Mauve, yes! I'm working on the proposal today and will send it to you
sonny
for review
Link Mauve
sonny, the whole DOAP thing might play well with it.
sonny
indeed
Link Mauve
See the messages since 15:50:49.
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Ge0rG
> i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful
Daniel: for that, a simple tuple of `"compliance-suite": 2019` and `"compliance-level": "advanced-im"` would be more than sufficient
Ge0rG
DOAP is significant overkill for that matter. I see how it's useful, but I really would like to have the CS level in the software listing rather sooner than later
Ge0rG
which was one of the points of the Badge.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: is there an elegant way to make use of implicit dependencies in DOAP? i.e. I don't actually do anything with RSM, except for applying it in MAM
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Ge0rG
Or: I'm using 0049 only for Bookmarks
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Daniel
It might not be worth listing at all?
Ge0rG
Maybe.
Ge0rGjust realized that CS-2020 is missing one of the most important XEPs, ever. XEP-0245
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Link Mauve
Ge0rG, DOAP is purely descriptive, it would be up to consumer scripts to derive data from it.
Link Mauve
Also for user-facing lists I expect we wouldn’t show 0059 or 0049 at all, instead display Feature: Bookmarks.
Link Mauve
“we” being any random consumer script.
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, !
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: so I need to enter all the dependencies manually, explicitly?
Link Mauve
If you want to advertise them, I’d say yes.
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: is there a mid-term URL for the style.xsl that I can use on the RDF file checked into my git?
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Link Mauve
Ge0rG, I have it at https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl (just updated it), but I’m not sure about CORS things.
Link Mauve
Do you even need CORS with XSLT?
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Ge0rG
> Unsafe attempt to load URL https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl from frame with URL https://op-co.de/tmp/yaxim.rdf.xml. Domains, protocols and ports must match.
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: so how can I commit it to source control and have it renderable?
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, use xslt-proc as part of your website’s build system?
Link Mauve
Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct MIME type.✎
Link Mauve
Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct Content-Type. ✏
Ge0rG
I'm building my website from a different repository.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: so how's this for now? https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml
Ge0rG
Also why is 0030 even versioned 2.5rc3?
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Link Mauve
Ge0rG, I’m not aware of short-name in DOAP, and neither is the DOAP owl.
Ge0rG~blames~ thanks wurstsalat
Link Mauve
If you want to invent new properties you have to do them in a different namespace.
Ge0rG
so should name be the long name or just "yaxim" then?
Link Mauve
Just yaxim I think.
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Link Mauve
As an implementation detail of the xmpp.org Pelican integration I started, it should match the name used on xmpp.org.
Ge0rG
ah well, it will be fun with Bruno the Jabber™ Bear
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: that list has many supplementary XEPs now, no idea which ones to kick out.
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Link Mauve
Ge0rG, otherwise it looks good. :)
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: awesome!
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: why is the xsl referencing ../style.css btw?
Ge0rG
it makes self-hosting moar complicated
Link Mauve
I think because PulkoMandy has a the sample DOAP files in a directory, with the XSLT and CSS in the parent.
Ge0rG
ah well. I won't ever touch that again, anyway.
Ge0rG
Is there a more elegant way to make the DOAP apply for Bruno as well as for yaxim, than `cp yaxim.rdf bruno.rdf`?
Link Mauve
ln -s?
Link Mauve
Also no, you’ll have to change the name probably.
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: how am I supposed to change name and desc... yeah
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Zash
cp
Ge0rG
cp is more elegant than cp?
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pep.
Template it somehow?
Zash
cp+sed>cp
Ge0rG
Sigh.
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MattJ
Yeah, I think automating it is the way
Link Mauve
Zash, that’s UUOC. :p
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MattJ
Re-posting my in-progress MAM diff: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj
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MattJ
lovetox and jonas’ ^ hopefully it addresses some of the issues you have asked about
Zash
> and also implement , and clients that depend on these fields MUST verify [...]
MattJ
Good catch
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Zash
Bug in the thing or in the text?
MattJ
I think the text, but looks like I already fixed it
Ge0rG
MattJ: will you also handle my preferences-as-a-tristate remark from standards@?
Zash
Tristate? Which email?
MattJ
Ge0rG, preferences have been removed :)
MattJ
(they will be submitted as a separate XEP)
Daniel
MattJ, so assuming i use after-id and I want the second page? will i just make a new request with a new after-id or do i RSM?
MattJ
Daniel, it's confusing because there is overlap, but RSM seems to not be enough
Ge0rG
Zash: (c) from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html
MattJ
Daniel, so I would imagine before-id/after-id should be used for filtering, and RSM only for paging (as it was designed)
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MattJ
and I just need to figure out if/what text should be added about that
Ge0rG
It's great to dig out years-old mails that nobody responded to.
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Zash
Ge0rG: We added that to Prosody at least, right?
Daniel
MattJ, so to answer the question on the second page i'd be using RSM?
Ge0rG
MattJ: I suppose that you'll add preferences into a separate XEP, then. That would be a great opportunity to sneak it in.
Ge0rG
Zash: please read all of it.
Zash
Ah
MattJ
Daniel, yes, at which point if you only have after-id in the query and are using <after> in RSM, you could drop after-id with no change in the results you see
MattJ
But that wouldn't be necessary
Daniel
right. and/or I would be in the slightly confusing situation where i have an after-id and a rsm after that are different?
MattJ
Yep
MattJ
If you find it confusing, just specify one or the other
MattJ
One selects the query range, one selects the page
MattJ
But you could change the range to begin at the start of the page you want to request, and you'll get the same results
Daniel
right. so 'count' is not the full archive
MattJ
Right
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MattJ
I suspect this will be quite a pain to implement on the server side, fwiw, need to investigate that
MattJ
But the goal is to solve real problems that people are having with MAM (as clients), so I want to make sure these changes solve those problems before going much further
Daniel
i always thought it was supposed to fix server side issues?
Daniel
MattJ: are you going to write a security section and/or other words regarding the client having to match the query ID with running queries and verify the sender ID? If not I could maybe volunteer to do that
Daniel
most clients seem to be fine with just abusing RSM for that
MattJ
I can include that, yeah
MattJ
Made a note
MattJ
I think abusing RSM is fine in general, and I'm not even sure it's abuse... if you look at the archive as a stream of messages and the client wants successive pages
MattJ
It just gets messed up in corner cases, such as where people want to fill a hole in the past
Daniel
ah. because you can’t have both
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MattJ
Yeah
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MattJ
Also, <before> in RSM has a slightly different meaning
MattJ
<before> in RSM means you want the page before the id you provide
MattJ
before-id doesn't select the page, you'll still get the oldest page first
MattJ
This probably needs some extra clarification in the doc also
Ge0rG
MattJ: you should also have a section on "Order of events", for clients that desire a mostly-historically-linear access to the log
MattJ
Rough description of what it would contain?
Ge0rG
i.e. fetch MAM before enabling carbons / sending presence-available, then immediately close the gap :>
MattJ
Right
MattJ
That's originally what this section was: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sync
MattJ
a nice how-to for clients
Ge0rG
Very nice.
MattJ
and then it just didn't work, because of the race
Ge0rG
and then Bind2 never happened
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MattJ
so I documented the race problem and postponed the how-to for a brighter day, when it was fixed
MattJ
so I'd like to make bind2 happen
MattJ
or bind-not-2, whatever it takes to get something done
Ge0rG
MattJ: MAM-sub
MattJ
because it's pretty easy to fix this
Ge0rG
just gimme MAM-sub: an atomic switchover from MAM to live traffic, given on a date/id passed by the client; auto-enabling of "sent" carbons, delivery of all received messages, similar to the Carbon rules but with no forwarded wrapper, immediate acking with mam-id of outgoing messages
Ge0rG
ah, yeah. wiping of all MAMed messages from offline, delivery of the remaining offline messages
MattJ: this will solve all MAM problems, except for MUC-PMs
Ge0rG
and it's sufficiently easy to make me wonder why it's not there yet ;)
Daniel
all MAM problems?
Ge0rG
Daniel: that was a slight exaggeration.
Ge0rG
It will only solve the problems I'm bitching about for two years.
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Daniel
i've been using. gather last_id; enable_carbons, send presence, fire mam query for years w/o any known issues
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Daniel
sure a "get mam-id for sent messages" would be nice
Daniel
(i also feel like we've talked about that a week ago)
Ge0rG
Daniel: yes, it works, at the cost of client side deduplication
Daniel
what are you going to dedup?
Daniel
offline messages?
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Ge0rG
Offline, online and MAM results
Ge0rG
Also my database schema requires messages to arrive roughly in chronological order.
Daniel
well yes you need dedup but online + mam result will rarly happen
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Ge0rG
Rarely is not never
Ge0rG
Mobile connections may be very slow, especially in Germany
Daniel
sure. like i said you'll need dedup. but traffic wise or what ever you are concerned about it's not an issue
Daniel
i mean you are getting like 1 duplicate message or what? who cares
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MattJ
Daniel: your XMPP client will never succeed while you have that attitude
MattJ
Everyone knows success depends on a perfect protocol first
Ge0rG
🤐
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Ge0rG
There is actually one other issue with synchronizing MAM. How do I decide whether to ring the phone notification sound or not?
jonas’
delay
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Daniel
wait until catchup is complete. crossrefenece with messages received from your other instances. take chat markers into account. and then bleep once if there are messages in the new queue
Ge0rG
Daniel: regardless of whether it's a fresh sync or just a reconnect after 10mins of lack of coverage?
Daniel
yes
Daniel
i mean depends on what a fresh sync is to you
Ge0rG
I just installed the client
Daniel
are you downloading the entire MAM?
Daniel
i use what i described in catchup situations. first install isn’t catchup
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Ge0rG
The current beta is downloading 31 days, I'll probably limit it to 7 or so.
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lovetox
Great MattJ that will certainly help to fill holes
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lovetox
i just wonder is the field request not enough to detect fields
lovetox
do we need another feature?
lovetox
sure its one less roundtrip
lovetox
but are we going to add extended2, extended3 now for every field we add to mam?
lovetox
though if i look at pubsub i guess thats not a problem
lovetox
^^
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Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#appendix-revs
> Version 2.5_rc3_
What's up with an rc version?
Zash
For 2 years?
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Ge0rG
Zash: yes
Zash
wat
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pep.
Let's all show openssl how much we care about them adding SRVName and xmppAddr support to `openssl x509`:
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9950
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9951
Boulder, the software, could support it. Imagine if the XSF ran an XMPP-only CA (again). :)
Zash
Doesn't mean Let's Encrypt has to have that feature enabled in production.
Zash
That part would probably require fighting the CA/B forum
pep.
Right. I guess we can do both at the same time
pep.
Pay for lobbies to change CA/B stuff, and implement opt-in support in boulder
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MattJ
lovetox: I don't intend to add an extended2, but move to draft
MattJ
And the field request wouldn't cover the page flipping feature
pep.
MattJ, move to draft doesn't prevent MAM42 from adding #extended2, or #extended38
pep.
That you add it in 313 or in another XEP, it's the same to me
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MattJ
I originally planned another XEP, but it makes more sense here
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MattJ
More than prefs did
Zash
XEPlosion
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pep.
in sasl anon, what's the "trace" for? If the client want to optionally give some fingerprint info? (that can't really be trusted I guess as it's not specified(?)
Zash
In the olden days you'd put youn email there, for some reason.✎
Zash
In the olden days you'd put your email there, for some reason. ✏
pep.
That's up to the service require such info I guess?
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Zash
IIRC that's what anonymous FTP sites said in their greeting messages decades ago.