XSF Discussion - 2019-09-19

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  210. MattJ

    Who is currently responsible for the next compliance suites?

  211. Ge0rG

    MattJ: me!

  212. MattJ

    Oh, nice :)

  213. Ge0rG

    MattJ: say that again after you tried convincing me to add something.

  214. MattJ

    We'll see :)

  215. Guus

    maybe he knows of someone else that is going to suggest something that Matt thinks is a bad idea.

  216. Ge0rG

    MattJ: you might bribe me by rewriting the introduction section with something useful

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  219. MattJ

    No, Ge0rG guessed it in one attempt

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  232. MattJ

    Did we agree that splitting a XEP doesn't require council?

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  240. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I can't give a definitive answer to that, valid for all circumstances.

  241. Zash

    Editorial changes are up to the editor?

  242. Ge0rG

    to the author, normally.

  243. MattJ

    iirc the MIX split wasn't put through council

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  246. MattJ

    I don't really mind either way, just would be nice to know how many battles I need to fight

  247. Zash

    And with whom

  248. MattJ

    Doing most productive standards-based stuff feels like a battle

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  253. Seve


  254. Ge0rG

    MattJ: you could start by saying what exactly you plan.

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  258. MattJ

    Ge0rG, and extend the duration of the battle? :)

  259. Ge0rG

    MattJ: this is getting too meta for me

  260. MattJ

    Me too, just wait for the PRs

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  262. jonas’


  263. Ge0rG braces for impact

  264. Zash

    inb4 over 9000 XEPs

  265. Ge0rG

    Just split the existing ones on each heading.

  266. Zash

    When are we finishing the XEP-0060 split?

  267. Ge0rG

    Zash: after everybody implements MIX

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  269. jonas’

    everybody including libpurple?

  270. jonas’

    is "everybody implements MIX" the new "when duke nukem forever comes out"?

  271. Zash

    Pidgin with MIX support running on Hurd

  272. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes.

  273. Ge0rG

    It used to be PlayStation 3 vs DNF vs DM8000 for me, but eventually, all three happened.

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  297. MattJ

    In-progress MAM diff: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj

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  300. Seve is on mobile for a few minutes

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  303. Guus

    Board meeting time

  304. Guus

    Ralph sends his apologies.

  305. Guus

    Seve is here, being very mobile

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  307. Seve


  308. Guus

    MattJ , nyco_ ?

  309. MattJ


  310. nyco_


  311. nyco_

    thx to Daniel for the minutes

  312. Guus


  313. Guus

    MattJ do you want to take this one?

  314. nyco_


  315. Guus hands gavel

  316. MattJ pulls up trello

  317. MattJ

    0) Present: Guus, MattJ, nyco_ and Seve

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  319. MattJ

    Any minute-taking volunteers?

  320. Guus

    that awkward moment when everyone's looking at the same person.

  321. Guus

    I'll do them this time.

  322. MattJ

    and while volunteers ponder, anyone with topics for the agenda that are not already on Trello?

  323. MattJ

    Thanks Guus

  324. Seve

    None here

  325. nyco_

    Thx Guus, no new item from me

  326. MattJ

    1) Topics for decisions

  327. MattJ

    1.1) CC by-sa, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409

  328. nyco_

    is the full webiste under CC by-sa?

  329. nyco_

    also the XEPs?

  330. MattJ

    From a quick skim of the discussion, it appears we lost the licence from the website?

  331. nyco_

    because we have a lot of contributors

  332. nyco_


  333. nyco_


  334. nyco_

    no need for a CLA, I guess

  335. MattJ

    The XEPs have their own policy

  336. nyco_

    that PR is obsolete anyway, we can trash it

  337. nyco_

    I can add a CC by-sa (latest) in each newsletter individually, at no cost

  338. Seve

    I remember something happened and that PR had to wait for some reason, but can't remember why

  339. nyco_

    there is no legal terms, nor any terms of service

  340. Guus

    From what I read in the PR, Goffi wants the newsletter to explicitly state that it's CC By-SA licensed, so that its content can be translated shared on other sites.

  341. nyco_


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  343. MattJ

    I see no problem with that in itself

  344. Guus

    JC mentions that the entire website probably _should_ be under this license anyway

  345. Seve

    We may just be missing to add that on every newsletter and that would be it?

  346. nyco_

    for the newsletter, on my side, no worry to make it CC by-sa explicity, for all starting from now, or individually

  347. Guus

    Goffi mentions that it still is not, and by adding the license at least to the newsletter, the problem thta he's having would be fixed.

  348. nyco_

    that's a micro issue, what about the macro ?

  349. MattJ

    Well, we can first add it to the newsletter, and then resolve the website

  350. Guus

    If we at one point had the website under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ and the license reference got lost during a website makeover, I have no issue in adding https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ to each newsletter.

  351. MattJ

    I think allowing distribution and translation of the newsletter is higher priority

  352. Seve


  353. nyco_


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  356. nyco_

    why only 2.5?

  357. nyco_


  358. nyco_


  359. Guus

    2.5 is what we had. I don't know what the differences are between 2.5 and 4.0

  360. nyco_

    so it this PR obsolete now? in which case we can reject it

  361. nyco_


  362. nyco_

    differences between 4.0 and 2.5 is 1.5 :)

  363. nyco_

    you're welcome... :/

  364. MattJ

    Guus, what evidence do you have that 2.5 is what we had?

  365. Guus

    JC's comment in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409#issuecomment-369945588

  366. MattJ

    Right, I was looking for more

  367. Guus

    pulling up wayback machine now...

  368. Seve

    Like an evidence? :D

  369. MattJ

    In the interests of getting things moving, I motion that we publish the newsletter as cc-by-sa in future, and tackle the larger issue of the website separately

  370. Guus


  371. nyco_

    ok, all newsletters from now on are under latest CC by-sa anybody against that?

  372. nyco_

    +1 for that motion

  373. MattJ

    Seems like we're in agreement - Seve?

  374. nyco_

    I raise the question: what version

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  377. nyco_

    I motion "the latest"

  378. Seve

    Just thinking about if the XSF apart from the author could have the rights?

  379. Seve

    but I'm totally +1 with it

  380. MattJ

    4.0 seems fine to me, unless someone has a reason to object

  381. nyco_

    we are pointing to news, that we write, there will be some copy-pasting though, which is legally authorised

  382. Guus

    I don't have a reason to object.

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  384. Guus

    Can't find a reference to an exact version in the wayback machine on short notice (it ... is .. slow).

  385. nyco_

    no, not 4.0, but "latest", which means when a new version is published, we auto-upgrade

  386. MattJ

    nyco_, I'm not sure you can just do that

  387. nyco_

    you can

  388. Guus

    let's not auto-upgrade. We don't know what we're agreeing to, by doing that.

  389. MattJ

    or want to

  390. MattJ


  391. nyco_

    I got lawyers in my coworking space, I'll confirm

  392. nyco_

    then when a new version of the license is published, we raise the question again

  393. Seve


  394. nyco_

    or we can just trust the license issuer to be just more competent than we are

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  396. MattJ

    Ok, I'll respond to the PR with our feedback

  397. nyco_

    thx MattJ

  398. Seve

    Thank you

  399. MattJ

    1.2) DOAP

  400. Guus

    so we agreed to not auto-update?

  401. Guus

    (for the minutes?)

  402. Seve

    No auto-upgrade, no

  403. Link Mauve

    Hi, I’m here to answer any question you have about 1.2.

  404. MattJ

    Guus, the PR is for 4.0 on the newsletter, so I think that's what we will go with for now

  405. Guus


  406. MattJ

    if anyone objects, shout, but I think that can be addressed separately

  407. MattJ

    DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409/files

  408. MattJ


  409. MattJ

    Copy/paste fail. DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594

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  411. Guus

    I'm having concerns

  412. MattJ

    Technical or philosophical?

  413. nyco_

    I have just asked my lawyers: you can publish content under "CC by-sa or later"

  414. nyco_

    > Technical or philosophical? can it be another option?

  415. MattJ

    nyco_, thanks for the info

  416. Guus

    - DOAP as a protocol seems pretty new/unused - no updates in its git history for over a year. Is this the right tool to be used for this? - Adding more details to software listing on the XSF website is a slippery slope, as discussed before. - Asking for DOAP data would add hurdles for new projects to be listed - some projects already don't take the effort to do this simple listing - I don't want to make this more difficult.

  417. MattJ

    1) doesn't concern me. I think the alternative is making up something of our own, which has zero tooling/etc. - DOAP is RDF, which has a bunch of existing tooling and projects around it

  418. Link Mauve

    - DOAP is used at least by CPAN (Perl repository) and PyPI (Python repository), I expect other ones too, and there were minimal additions I had to add to support our usecase.

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  420. Seve

    DOAP data should be optional for new projects (or any projects) to be listed. The more you provide, the better. But that should not block

  421. Link Mauve

    AppStream might be another to look into.

  422. nyco_

    DOAP could structure the community a lot, as well as contribute to SEO

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  424. MattJ

    2) I'm curious what the concrete problems are here. In the past discussions have been about how we can objectively verify someone's support for a certain protocol. Here they are self-reporting, and we just state that

  425. MattJ

    3) it's optional, not a hurdle

  426. Guus

    3) if some projects do it, your listing has to do it to 'keep up'

  427. Link Mauve

    For your third point Guus, I expect DOAP to allow relaxing the renewal requirement, for instance if a project just got a new release in the past year we could automatically consider it as the most recent renewal and avoid the manual one.

  428. MattJ

    Guus, and I'm fine with that - I think it's a great thing for a project to have

  429. Guus

    Link Mauve good point.

  430. Seve

    Guus, that means more incentive for projects to become better

  431. nyco_

    this specific DOAP format may seem overkill though

  432. Link Mauve

    The exact rules are of course to be discussed.

  433. MattJ

    nyco_, I agree, but it can be automated

  434. MattJ

    and I don't see a better/simpler format than someone we just cook up ourselves

  435. Link Mauve

    nyco_, the main reason I went for this format was that it was already used elsewhere, had existing parsers, and so that other people could use them for different purposes than what we originally thought about.

  436. MattJ

    *than something

  437. Seve

    In this example you can see here: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-0048.xml Where it says "Software support", I would appreciate a lot a link or a comment to a page explaining how this data/support info is obtained, so we state it is not crafted by us

  438. nyco_

    Link Mauve : that's what I used "may"

  439. Link Mauve

    This isn’t just about xmpp.org, but for any consumer to derive data from our list of XMPP software.

  440. Guus

    Seve that link doesn't work for me.

  441. nyco_

    Link Mauve : good point, that's why I mentioned SEO

  442. Seve


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  444. Link Mauve

    Guus, Chromium is known to have issues with running JavaScript on XSLT-transformed pages, you may prefer to use a pre-rendered page.

  445. Guus

    Do we want to apply this before the spec has been ironed out?

  446. Seve

    Guus, maybe you can check my screenshot

  447. Guus

    Link Mauve I got a 404 actually, but nevermind. Seve's screenshot is useful.

  448. Guus

    I quite dislike that XEP example, by the way

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  450. nyco_

    that software support table is awesome

  451. MattJ


  452. Guus

    I'd hate for discussions around 'why is my implementation not listed'

  453. MattJ

    "because you didn't provide a DOAP file"

  454. Seve

    Because you didn't provide

  455. MattJ

    "here's how"

  456. Seve

    ok MattJ, you win this time

  457. Seve

    That's why I'm saying we need that other page explaining this

  458. Link Mauve

    Seve, good point, we can add any such link once we have one written. :)

  459. Guus

    I don't like how that almost forces people to use this at all.

  460. nyco_

    I don't get that "force", please explain?

  461. MattJ

    Guus, it doesn't force, but obviously if they do this then they benefit

  462. MattJ

    and I really see no problem - why wouldn't you do it?

  463. MattJ

    It's not like we're asking for money

  464. Seve

    I have some other frontend/interface points to discuss, but maybe that should go into another conversation

  465. Guus

    By not complying, you're at a disadvantage.

  466. MattJ

    So why not comply?

  467. Link Mauve

    Guus, the idea was to do it similarly to the w3c HTML5 pages, which for each section (for us each XEP I guess? At least for now) you can see which browsers support the feature.

  468. MattJ

    What are the barriers?

  469. nyco_

    I share Guus' concerns about putting pressure on software projects owners, who are already struggling

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  471. MattJ

    nyco_, this removes the annual renewal requirement already, so they can spend their time elsewhere

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  473. Link Mauve

    We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website.

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  475. Guus

    why not comply: time/money and a spec that's not ironed out.

  476. Seve

    To me, that gives you more reasons to keep up with your project. I find it a bit "weird" to have a client but not a list of what do you support, etc

  477. nyco_

    MattJ there is still non-code maintenance to be done

  478. Seve

    We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website. Problem solved!

  479. Link Mauve

    Guus, note that this PR doesn’t modify the XEP page at all atm.

  480. moparisthebest

    https://caniuse.com/ ?

  481. Link Mauve

    It only adds the data to Pelican for further use.

  482. Seve

    >We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website. Problem solved!

  483. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, this kind of website could perfectly use the DOAP data we will gather.

  484. nyco_

    Link Mauve : agree a form can simplify people's lives

  485. Guus

    Link Mauve true.

  486. Link Mauve

    nyco_, I can add that as an actionable.

  487. MattJ

    I am strongly strongly in favour of this, and we can only make it better and easier over time

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  489. nyco_

    moparisthebest : and the shiny new https://www.caniemail.com

  490. MattJ

    I see absolutely no reason why any project would be barred from participating

  491. Seve

    I feel the same excitement!

  492. nyco_

    we need our own canixmpp.com

  493. Link Mauve

    That was the reason I proposed this PR as early, so we can discuss it and figure out the points to be resolved before going full out with it. :)

  494. nyco_

    yeah, looks like we can build so much with only the small adoption of a format

  495. MattJ

    The meeting is over time. Do we want to vote on approving the PR in this meeting, or provide some actionable feedback on it?

  496. nyco_

    looks like we have a consensus that DOAP can be cool

  497. nyco_

    we have not agreed on the details and next steps yet

  498. nyco_

    that's my feeling

  499. Seve

    I would like to ask for some frontend tweaks if possible (in the sense of, if those can be done by somebody)

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  501. MattJ

    Seve, there is no frontend yet (in this PR)

  502. Seve

    Ah, right hah :)

  503. MattJ

    This is just some tooling to fetch the data

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  505. Seve

    I went too far

  506. MattJ

    and then more PRs can follow, which actually do something with it

  507. Link Mauve

    Seve, note that there is no frontend work in this PR, it only adds a "doap" entry for each software we have in our lists, and a simple Python parser for them.

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  509. Guus

    If the question is only to add a link to software listing on our website (but I think that the PR also includes some kind of script?), I'd not object to just that.

  510. Guus

    what does the parser do?

  511. nyco_

    so let's continue that discussion on the next board meeting?

  512. Seve

    I would be ok with voting for this PR

  513. Chobbes has left

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  515. MattJ

    Yeah, I think we're going to have to call this one unfinished. I have another meeting to attend in a few.

  516. Link Mauve

    Guus, it parses a DOAP file and adds the data to Pelican’s internal structs, for further use.

  517. MattJ

    Feel free to continue discussion afterwards

  518. Link Mauve

    I could remove it from the PR if you want to only add the doap URLs.

  519. MattJ

    2) Date of next

  520. MattJ


  521. Seve


  522. Seve


  523. Guus

    +1w wfm

  524. MattJ bangs the gavel

  525. Guus

    I need to run too.

  526. Seve

    Thank you everybody! thanks Link Mauve for being present, that helps a lot

  527. Seve

    and Guus for the minutes, we love you!

  528. Link Mauve

    And to you all for running the board. :)

  529. Guus

    You should run next year!

  530. Guus

    see: council and board elections! 🙂

  531. UsL has left

  532. Daniel

    i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful (and somewhat overdue) for users. it is fine to get your weekend project listed on their. but users need to be able to quickly figure out in what state a client is before clicking the link. and doap files seem to be a good way to figure that out automatically. also the reverse thing (show which software supports a given XEP) is nice as well. especially for libraries. (the list should be less in your face and also collapsible; but that's details)

  533. Link Mauve

    The design of the table in the XEP was edhelas’s work, kudos to him for that, but that’s a first attempt.

  534. Link Mauve

    We obviously can improve on it. :)

  535. Link Mauve

    Now that Pelican has access to the status of the XEPs per client, we could automatically select the relevant compliance suite badge.

  536. Daniel


  537. Link Mauve

    The website generator used for xmpp.org.

  538. Daniel

    i see

  539. Daniel

    yes that would be super helpful. i mean right now the user will have to click through each website to find something that is actually good

  540. Daniel

    it might also bring more visibility to the compliance suits themselves

  541. adiaholic has left

  542. Link Mauve

    sonny, you may be interested, ↑

  543. adiaholic has joined

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  545. sonny

    Link Mauve, yes! I'm working on the proposal today and will send it to you

  546. sonny

    for review

  547. Link Mauve

    sonny, the whole DOAP thing might play well with it.

  548. sonny


  549. Link Mauve

    See the messages since 15:50:49.

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  557. Ge0rG

    > i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful Daniel: for that, a simple tuple of `"compliance-suite": 2019` and `"compliance-level": "advanced-im"` would be more than sufficient

  558. Ge0rG

    DOAP is significant overkill for that matter. I see how it's useful, but I really would like to have the CS level in the software listing rather sooner than later

  559. Ge0rG

    which was one of the points of the Badge.

  560. Chobbes has left

  561. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: is there an elegant way to make use of implicit dependencies in DOAP? i.e. I don't actually do anything with RSM, except for applying it in MAM

  562. Chobbes has joined

  563. Ge0rG

    Or: I'm using 0049 only for Bookmarks

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  565. Daniel

    It might not be worth listing at all?

  566. Ge0rG


  567. Ge0rG just realized that CS-2020 is missing one of the most important XEPs, ever. XEP-0245

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  573. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, DOAP is purely descriptive, it would be up to consumer scripts to derive data from it.

  574. Link Mauve

    Also for user-facing lists I expect we wouldn’t show 0059 or 0049 at all, instead display Feature: Bookmarks.

  575. Link Mauve

    “we” being any random consumer script.

  576. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, !

  577. Chobbes has left

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  579. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: so I need to enter all the dependencies manually, explicitly?

  580. Link Mauve

    If you want to advertise them, I’d say yes.

  581. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: is there a mid-term URL for the style.xsl that I can use on the RDF file checked into my git?

  582. marc_ has left

  583. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I have it at https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl (just updated it), but I’m not sure about CORS things.

  584. Link Mauve

    Do you even need CORS with XSLT?

  585. marc_ has joined

  586. Ge0rG

    > Unsafe attempt to load URL https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl from frame with URL https://op-co.de/tmp/yaxim.rdf.xml. Domains, protocols and ports must match.

  587. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: so how can I commit it to source control and have it renderable?

  588. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, use xslt-proc as part of your website’s build system?

  589. Link Mauve

    Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct MIME type.

  590. Link Mauve

    Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct Content-Type.

  591. Ge0rG

    I'm building my website from a different repository.

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  605. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: so how's this for now? https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml

  606. Ge0rG

    Also why is 0030 even versioned 2.5rc3?

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  609. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I’m not aware of short-name in DOAP, and neither is the DOAP owl.

  610. Ge0rG ~blames~ thanks wurstsalat

  611. Link Mauve

    If you want to invent new properties you have to do them in a different namespace.

  612. Ge0rG

    so should name be the long name or just "yaxim" then?

  613. Link Mauve

    Just yaxim I think.

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  616. Link Mauve

    As an implementation detail of the xmpp.org Pelican integration I started, it should match the name used on xmpp.org.

  617. Ge0rG

    ah well, it will be fun with Bruno the Jabber™ Bear

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  620. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: that list has many supplementary XEPs now, no idea which ones to kick out.

  621. Chobbes has joined

  622. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, otherwise it looks good. :)

  623. kokonoe has joined

  624. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: awesome!

  625. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: why is the xsl referencing ../style.css btw?

  626. Ge0rG

    it makes self-hosting moar complicated

  627. Link Mauve

    I think because PulkoMandy has a the sample DOAP files in a directory, with the XSLT and CSS in the parent.

  628. Ge0rG

    ah well. I won't ever touch that again, anyway.

  629. Ge0rG

    Is there a more elegant way to make the DOAP apply for Bruno as well as for yaxim, than `cp yaxim.rdf bruno.rdf`?

  630. Link Mauve

    ln -s?

  631. Link Mauve

    Also no, you’ll have to change the name probably.

  632. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: how am I supposed to change name and desc... yeah

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  635. Zash


  636. Ge0rG

    cp is more elegant than cp?

  637. Chobbes has left

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  639. pep.

    Template it somehow?

  640. Zash


  641. Ge0rG


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  643. MattJ

    Yeah, I think automating it is the way

  644. Link Mauve

    Zash, that’s UUOC. :p

  645. kokonoe has left

  646. MattJ

    Re-posting my in-progress MAM diff: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj

  647. zach has left

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  649. MattJ

    lovetox and jonas’ ^ hopefully it addresses some of the issues you have asked about

  650. Zash

    > and also implement , and clients that depend on these fields MUST verify [...]

  651. MattJ

    Good catch

  652. eevvoor has left

  653. Zash

    Bug in the thing or in the text?

  654. MattJ

    I think the text, but looks like I already fixed it

  655. Ge0rG

    MattJ: will you also handle my preferences-as-a-tristate remark from standards@?

  656. Zash

    Tristate? Which email?

  657. MattJ

    Ge0rG, preferences have been removed :)

  658. MattJ

    (they will be submitted as a separate XEP)

  659. Daniel

    MattJ, so assuming i use after-id and I want the second page? will i just make a new request with a new after-id or do i RSM?

  660. MattJ

    Daniel, it's confusing because there is overlap, but RSM seems to not be enough

  661. Ge0rG

    Zash: (c) from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html

  662. MattJ

    Daniel, so I would imagine before-id/after-id should be used for filtering, and RSM only for paging (as it was designed)

  663. Steve Kille has left

  664. MattJ

    and I just need to figure out if/what text should be added about that

  665. Ge0rG

    It's great to dig out years-old mails that nobody responded to.

  666. eevvoor has joined

  667. Zash

    Ge0rG: We added that to Prosody at least, right?

  668. Daniel

    MattJ, so to answer the question on the second page i'd be using RSM?

  669. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I suppose that you'll add preferences into a separate XEP, then. That would be a great opportunity to sneak it in.

  670. Ge0rG

    Zash: please read all of it.

  671. Zash


  672. MattJ

    Daniel, yes, at which point if you only have after-id in the query and are using <after> in RSM, you could drop after-id with no change in the results you see

  673. MattJ

    But that wouldn't be necessary

  674. Daniel

    right. and/or I would be in the slightly confusing situation where i have an after-id and a rsm after that are different?

  675. MattJ


  676. MattJ

    If you find it confusing, just specify one or the other

  677. MattJ

    One selects the query range, one selects the page

  678. MattJ

    But you could change the range to begin at the start of the page you want to request, and you'll get the same results

  679. Daniel

    right. so 'count' is not the full archive

  680. MattJ


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  685. MattJ

    I suspect this will be quite a pain to implement on the server side, fwiw, need to investigate that

  686. MattJ

    But the goal is to solve real problems that people are having with MAM (as clients), so I want to make sure these changes solve those problems before going much further

  687. Daniel

    i always thought it was supposed to fix server side issues?

  688. Daniel

    MattJ: are you going to write a security section and/or other words regarding the client having to match the query ID with running queries and verify the sender ID? If not I could maybe volunteer to do that

  689. Daniel

    most clients seem to be fine with just abusing RSM for that

  690. MattJ

    I can include that, yeah

  691. MattJ

    Made a note

  692. MattJ

    I think abusing RSM is fine in general, and I'm not even sure it's abuse... if you look at the archive as a stream of messages and the client wants successive pages

  693. MattJ

    It just gets messed up in corner cases, such as where people want to fill a hole in the past

  694. Daniel

    ah. because you can’t have both

  695. zach has left

  696. MattJ


  697. zach has joined

  698. MattJ

    Also, <before> in RSM has a slightly different meaning

  699. MattJ

    <before> in RSM means you want the page before the id you provide

  700. MattJ

    before-id doesn't select the page, you'll still get the oldest page first

  701. MattJ

    This probably needs some extra clarification in the doc also

  702. Ge0rG

    MattJ: you should also have a section on "Order of events", for clients that desire a mostly-historically-linear access to the log

  703. MattJ

    Rough description of what it would contain?

  704. Ge0rG

    i.e. fetch MAM before enabling carbons / sending presence-available, then immediately close the gap :>

  705. MattJ


  706. MattJ

    That's originally what this section was: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sync

  707. MattJ

    a nice how-to for clients

  708. Ge0rG

    Very nice.

  709. MattJ

    and then it just didn't work, because of the race

  710. Ge0rG

    and then Bind2 never happened

  711. kokonoe has left

  712. MattJ

    so I documented the race problem and postponed the how-to for a brighter day, when it was fixed

  713. MattJ

    so I'd like to make bind2 happen

  714. MattJ

    or bind-not-2, whatever it takes to get something done

  715. Ge0rG

    MattJ: MAM-sub

  716. MattJ

    because it's pretty easy to fix this

  717. Ge0rG

    just gimme MAM-sub: an atomic switchover from MAM to live traffic, given on a date/id passed by the client; auto-enabling of "sent" carbons, delivery of all received messages, similar to the Carbon rules but with no forwarded wrapper, immediate acking with mam-id of outgoing messages

  718. Ge0rG

    ah, yeah. wiping of all MAMed messages from offline, delivery of the remaining offline messages

  719. Ge0rG

    keep 0198 and session binding out of it.

  720. Zash

    That's not what I thought "MAM-sub" meant.

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  726. Ge0rG

    MattJ, Zash: https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/5ae3365196a0c046fc596bbf707fdc15

  727. emus has joined

  728. Ge0rG

    MattJ: this will solve all MAM problems, except for MUC-PMs

  729. Ge0rG

    and it's sufficiently easy to make me wonder why it's not there yet ;)

  730. Daniel

    all MAM problems?

  731. Ge0rG

    Daniel: that was a slight exaggeration.

  732. Ge0rG

    It will only solve the problems I'm bitching about for two years.

  733. jubalh has left

  734. Daniel

    i've been using. gather last_id; enable_carbons, send presence, fire mam query for years w/o any known issues

  735. zach has left

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  737. Daniel

    sure a "get mam-id for sent messages" would be nice

  738. Daniel

    (i also feel like we've talked about that a week ago)

  739. Ge0rG

    Daniel: yes, it works, at the cost of client side deduplication

  740. Daniel

    what are you going to dedup?

  741. Daniel

    offline messages?

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  745. Ge0rG

    Offline, online and MAM results

  746. Ge0rG

    Also my database schema requires messages to arrive roughly in chronological order.

  747. Daniel

    well yes you need dedup but online + mam result will rarly happen

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  751. Ge0rG

    Rarely is not never

  752. Ge0rG

    Mobile connections may be very slow, especially in Germany

  753. Daniel

    sure. like i said you'll need dedup. but traffic wise or what ever you are concerned about it's not an issue

  754. Daniel

    i mean you are getting like 1 duplicate message or what? who cares

  755. intosi has left

  756. MattJ

    Daniel: your XMPP client will never succeed while you have that attitude

  757. MattJ

    Everyone knows success depends on a perfect protocol first

  758. Ge0rG


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  771. Ge0rG

    There is actually one other issue with synchronizing MAM. How do I decide whether to ring the phone notification sound or not?

  772. jonas’


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  775. Daniel

    wait until catchup is complete. crossrefenece with messages received from your other instances. take chat markers into account. and then bleep once if there are messages in the new queue

  776. Ge0rG

    Daniel: regardless of whether it's a fresh sync or just a reconnect after 10mins of lack of coverage?

  777. Daniel


  778. Daniel

    i mean depends on what a fresh sync is to you

  779. Ge0rG

    I just installed the client

  780. Daniel

    are you downloading the entire MAM?

  781. Daniel

    i use what i described in catchup situations. first install isn’t catchup

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  793. Ge0rG

    The current beta is downloading 31 days, I'll probably limit it to 7 or so.

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  795. lovetox

    Great MattJ that will certainly help to fill holes

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  799. lovetox

    i just wonder is the field request not enough to detect fields

  800. lovetox

    do we need another feature?

  801. lovetox

    sure its one less roundtrip

  802. lovetox

    but are we going to add extended2, extended3 now for every field we add to mam?

  803. lovetox

    though if i look at pubsub i guess thats not a problem

  804. lovetox


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  824. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#appendix-revs > Version 2.5_rc3_ What's up with an rc version?

  825. Zash

    For 2 years?

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  830. Ge0rG

    Zash: yes

  831. Zash


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  861. pep.

    Let's all show openssl how much we care about them adding SRVName and xmppAddr support to `openssl x509`: https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9950 https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9951

  862. pep.


  863. Zash

    Step 3: Reopen https://github.com/letsencrypt/boulder/issues/1309

  864. zach has left

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  866. pep.

    Don't we need to fix the CA/B stuff before?

  867. Zash

    Boulder, the software, could support it. Imagine if the XSF ran an XMPP-only CA (again). :)

  868. Zash

    Doesn't mean Let's Encrypt has to have that feature enabled in production.

  869. Zash

    That part would probably require fighting the CA/B forum

  870. pep.

    Right. I guess we can do both at the same time

  871. pep.

    Pay for lobbies to change CA/B stuff, and implement opt-in support in boulder

  872. Nekit has joined

  873. MattJ

    lovetox: I don't intend to add an extended2, but move to draft

  874. MattJ

    And the field request wouldn't cover the page flipping feature

  875. pep.

    MattJ, move to draft doesn't prevent MAM42 from adding #extended2, or #extended38

  876. pep.

    That you add it in 313 or in another XEP, it's the same to me

  877. pdurbin has joined

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  879. MattJ

    I originally planned another XEP, but it makes more sense here

  880. zach has left

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  882. MattJ

    More than prefs did

  883. Zash


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  894. pep.

    in sasl anon, what's the "trace" for? If the client want to optionally give some fingerprint info? (that can't really be trusted I guess as it's not specified(?)

  895. Zash

    In the olden days you'd put youn email there, for some reason.

  896. Zash

    In the olden days you'd put your email there, for some reason.

  897. pep.

    That's up to the service require such info I guess?

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  899. Zash

    IIRC that's what anonymous FTP sites said in their greeting messages decades ago.

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  930. Link Mauve

    Daniel, Zash, sonny, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594/commits/f4b561b7cc80a890076e6b37c5393db0eddc6915

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  933. Link Mauve

    For now it’s a text version, but I expect to use badges instead once we want to integrate it on the website.

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  938. Ge0rG

    It's not 2020 yet...

  939. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I can move back to 2019 if we want to enable the badges before that.

  940. Link Mauve

    But I think targetting 2020 might be a good idea.

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  949. Link Mauve

    Ugh, when we accepted https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/812 I forgot to check that xs:unsignedInteger exists: turns out it doesn’t.

  950. Link Mauve

    This PR probably wanted to use xs:unsignedInt instead.

  951. Link Mauve

    I’m sorry about that. /o\

  952. Link Mauve

    vanitasvitae, ↑

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  957. vanitasvitae

    Oh you're right.

  958. zach has left

  959. zach has joined