XSF Discussion - 2019-09-26

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  146. jonas’ MattJ, after council meeting isn’t really going to work for me, I’m usually preparing dinner then. I assume weekends aren’t going to work for you?
  147. MattJ Usually not, but I might be able to make this Sunday work
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  150. jonas’ SMS-based 2fa is very convenient with MAXS ;-) (cc and thx @ flow)
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  153. Ge0rG jonas’: it's also reducing the number of factors.
  154. jonas’ Ge0rG, yeah
  155. jonas’ although that depends really
  156. jonas’ but in any case, I’m not fond of SMS based 2fa anyways
  157. jonas’ I don’t trust the phone or phone network with that
  158. MattJ I agree, MAXS makes it easier
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  162. MattJ and it's not really removing a factor, it just means you have to have your phone or your laptop, the other factor is still the password
  163. MattJ Unless you have the password saved on the laptop :)
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  165. MattJ Huh, we swapped rooms
  166. Ge0rG MattJ: or in the app on your phone
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  218. nyco test
  219. Kev toast
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  222. Guus donkey!
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  230. nyco_ 5
  231. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  232. nyco_ _o/
  233. nyco_ Ralph is not joining, excused by email
  234. Seve Can someone else chair today, please?
  235. Guus Hi guys
  236. Guus MattJ - are you around?
  237. MattJ Here
  238. nyco_ quorum
  239. Guus bangs the gavel
  240. Guus Hello, and welcome to the umptieth edition of the XSF board meeting!
  241. Guus 1) Role call and agenda
  242. MattJ Here
  243. Guus we've established that everyone is here, but Ralph that just sent an email to apologise
  244. Guus as usual, the agenda is driven by our Trello board at https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  245. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  246. MattJ Re. agenda: I propose we tackle some of the items we didn't cover last week, due to the length of the DOAP discussion last week
  247. Guus does anyone want us to address anything that's not on there?
  248. MattJ and if we have time, we can revisit DOAP
  249. Seve Yes, I would also like to do that, MattJ
  250. Guus I have no preference either way.
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  253. Seve (And I do not have anything for the agenda)
  254. Guus Unless nyco strongly objects within the next few moments, so it shall be then.
  255. Guus 2) Confirm minute taker
  256. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  257. Guus Who would be so kind?
  258. nyco_ I object this objection! :)
  259. Dele (Mobile) has left
  260. MattJ I'll do it
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  262. Guus Anyone? We'd be helped a lot by someone taking notes, compiling them and sending them on the members lists after the meeting. There's nothing more to it.
  263. Guus Thanks MattJ - if anyone that's not also taking part in the discussion would consider doing this next time(s), please!
  264. Guus 3) Topics for decisions
  265. Guus 3.1) Sponsorship request
  266. MattJ Ralph isn't here, but indicated he would rather decline this unless we can determine their relationship with XMPP
  267. Guus we received this offer: > I represent a company called TheBestVPN.com and we'd like to make a sponsorship for XMPP. > Can you let us know if you're accepting any new sponsorship request and are there any perks associated with it?
  268. MattJ Also, relatedly, I just searched my inbox to find the email from Peter
  269. MattJ and turned up an email from someone at TheBestVPN.com to a Debian mailing list, which looked like a thinly-veiled SEO attempt
  270. Seve I tried to find some information about them on the Internet but it is not quite clear to me if there is a real support for XMPP or it is a "kind of SEO request"
  271. Guus I'm not sure if we should limit ourselves to sponsors that have a direct relation to XMPP
  272. nyco_ fine, so be it: it's no
  273. MattJ I don't see anything particularly shady in any of it itself, but we've previously declined SEO-only sponsors, and I'm inclined to maintain this policy
  274. nyco_ do we need to debate more?
  275. Guus I do think we should not have sponsors that only want to use us for blatant SEO
  276. nyco_ they are bad SEO then, because you can some for free
  277. Guus Well, this guy didn't say/do anything to suggest that this is a SEO attempt.
  278. Seve Guus, I think we should not close the doors to any sponsors, either XMPP supporters or not, but yeah, not only SEO requests
  279. Guus He just offered to sponsor, and asked about the perks.
  280. Seve Indeed
  281. Guus I see no harm in pointing him at the website that lists the perks.
  282. Ge0rG related: https://www.pcmag.com/news/367640/how-a-vpn-review-site-dominated-google-search-with-a-scam
  283. Guus Thanks Ge0rG - that's a troubling headline.
  284. MattJ Based on everything I've seen so far, and the email to the Debian list, it's 99.99% likely to be SEO-related
  285. Guus Given that, I suggest that we reject based on the shady history of the company, and that we're reluctant to be associated to that.
  286. Ge0rG I suggest to drop and not to reject.
  287. nyco_ yes, please, let's reject it
  288. Guus Ge0rG ?
  289. Ge0rG don't reply at all, that reduces the risk of long discussions.
  290. nyco_ fine
  291. Guus He already sent a follow-up question. I'll try to formulate a response - that's the least we can do.
  292. Ge0rG people who are good at SEO are also good at sending follow-up requests
  293. Guus so, we reject this offer due to the perceived SEO-nature and non-positive history of the company?
  294. nyco_ on LinuxFr, I usually reject kindly all ads, promoted content, links exchanges, partnerships... explicity, it helps I get a "thank you" almost every time
  295. nyco_ I'd reject based on non-relatedness to XMPP
  296. Ge0rG Any kind of rejection needs to be well argued based on our public policy.
  297. Guus I don't want to reject it based on non-XMPP relationship. That's an excuse.
  298. nyco_ no one in that company has written XMPP software, no one is a member => correct assumption?
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  300. Ge0rG Writing a proper rejection will be some work.
  301. MattJ I know why you would say "don't limit us to XMPP-related things only", but if someone wants to sponsor us who is not related to XMPP or aligned with the XSF's goals, what could their motives be?
  302. nyco_ no, it's quite easy and fast
  303. Seve Apart from SEO... Hmm
  304. MattJ SEO is top of that list
  305. Seve Good people?
  306. Seve ÑD
  307. Guus MattJ supporting OSS / Open standards?
  308. Seve :D
  309. MattJ Guus, that aligns with our goals, obviously
  310. nyco_ I feel we're wasting too much time on this
  311. Guus I tend to agree nyco.
  312. MattJ Well, we're not just really discussing this request, but how to deal with requests of this kind (this is not the first and it won't be the last)
  313. Guus I'll draft a rejection reply, and share it with board.
  314. nyco_ +1
  315. Guus if there's no consensus via mail, we can pick this up again next week.
  316. MattJ Ultimately we could provide Peter with some guidance on how to handle these himself
  317. MattJ Instead of every inbound SEO request ending up on Board's agenda
  318. MattJ which believe me, doesn't happen in any other sane organisation
  319. Guus given that this is our second request in as many years... 🙂
  320. nyco_ we get two or three such requests per month on LinuxFr.org
  321. nyco_ it takes 5 min each
  322. MattJ Then maybe no general action is needed, let's just ask Peter to kindly reject with a one-liner
  323. Seve We would need to check if he said he would forward it to Board
  324. Guus I'll send the one-liner.
  325. Guus Let's move on
  326. Seve Ok, thank you.
  327. Guus 4) Commitment for the week ahead
  328. Guus I'm skipping over the issues with Ralph's face tagged to it, as he's not here
  329. Guus which leaves
  330. Guus 4.1) GSOC '19 evaluation
  331. Guus Nyco, I'm seeing your name attached to that
  332. Guus Do we want to do anything here?
  333. nyco_ yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GSoC_2019 or not... just asked the commTeam
  334. nyco_ sorry, it went out of my mind
  335. Guus No worries, I have a similar mind 🙂
  336. nyco_ we are closing the newsletter tomorrow, we'll send a PR on GitHub, for a publication on Tue 1st Oct
  337. nyco_ so either someone write a short piece
  338. Guus comms related to this is good, but not something that board is needed for.
  339. nyco_ or we forget it
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  341. nyco_ agree
  342. Guus do we want to evaluate the process itself? Eg: flow organizing things for the first time?
  343. nyco_ he hasn't got time for this, I asked
  344. Guus I think I pinged him on that, but forgot his response, if I got any.
  345. Guus Ok - Is there anyone that feels an evaluation is needed?
  346. Guus We seem to hav had a successful gsoc?
  347. nyco_ maybe a summary could do, as a reminder for our newsletter readers
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  350. nyco_ (and contribute to SEO as well...)
  351. Seve Ideally I would like someone related to it
  352. Guus that's comms again 🙂
  353. Guus (and: fine by me)
  354. Guus I'm not hearing anyone particularly wanting to go over this.
  355. nyco_ I'll try, low proba it will end up in the newsletter
  356. Ge0rG Aren't there blogs kept by all participants? A summary could link those.
  357. Guus Yeah, I intended this to be not about comms
  358. Guus but more around the question: do we want to organize things differently next year?
  359. Guus I don't see any reason to, and as I'm having trouble getting this discussion off the ground, let's skip it completely and thank Flow and others involved for their effort.
  360. Seve That would require input from the people involved in it, I can't tell much, unfortunately.
  361. Guus 5) Items for discussion
  362. Guus 5.1) Publicize XSF financials
  363. Guus This is in response to a question I received from an XSF Member about the state of the XSF financials.
  364. Guus let me quote some stuff
  365. Seve Where they done public in the past? I've read that by someone but can't remember who :)
  366. Guus > Earlier today, a member had detailed questions on XSF financials (what do we spend money on, how do we obtain money, etc). He asked if/why data was private. > I had to admit that I simply didn't know. I feel that much of this isn't private data, but I don't think we publicly share information either. > There's a least one member that hinted at us being secretive about the financials. I don't think that's necessarily true, but since we've not been publishing any information, I can see how that can be perceived as being secretive. > Someone else mentioned that the XSF has been 'more open' about this in the past. I'm thinking that the lack of information sharing is largely caused by people being less active, and not so much a deliberate attempt at withholding data. What do you think? > I'd hate for people to feel that we're doing things in the dark here. If we did things differently before, can you share on what worked well at that time?
  367. Seve Just to know how things went previously, etc
  368. Guus that was all me, to Peter
  369. Guus Peter responded: > The board has never set a policy on this. If we want to open the books, it is easy enough to do. and > Well, "secretive" is a bit strong. In the far past we posted a kind of spreadsheet on the website, describing various expenses. I'd be happy to do that again, and even reconstruct expenses for all the years between then and now. Naturally it will take me some time to generate that information from file folders in my safe. 🙂
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  371. Guus (that concludes my quoting of things)
  372. Guus I'd not mind taking Peter up on that offer.
  373. Seve That helps a lot, really
  374. MattJ Is backfilling a requirement?
  375. Guus Which in my perspective is basically picking up where we left off.
  376. jonas’ floor comment: I suggest we don’t put too much load on peter in htis regard and do not ask for expense summaries since back then
  377. MattJ I agree, I'd rather not provide Peter with more work if we can help it
  378. nyco_ agree, it's a question of RoI
  379. Guus I disagree. If we do make things public, it shouldn't have gaps.
  380. nyco_ ROTI, return on time invested
  381. jonas’ unless a majority of members wants that information, of course
  382. pep. MattJ: is as one of the people to ask about this, I don't mind if it's just from now on.
  383. Guus also, I'm guessing that the work involved is light, as he already should have administation
  384. MattJ Guus, we make things public from today, I don't see the problem
  385. MattJ He said himself it will "take some time"
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  387. Guus Sure, doesn't need to happen overnight
  388. nyco_ can we easily track the board's decisions regarding spending?
  389. Guus but I think it's sensible to have a complete record.
  390. MattJ I feel it's unfair to ask him to put in that time just to satisfy the curiosity of a couple of folks, when just general overview of current+future would be fine
  391. Guus also, he offered without being asked to.
  392. MattJ We're over time again and I need to prep for my next meeting
  393. Guus I'm not seeing this as satisfying curiosity, but as a way to be transparant as an organisastion.
  394. Guus Ok, can we conclude this before you go?
  395. MattJ I've no objection to transparency
  396. nyco_ yep, we are fully transparent with the board, holding meetings in public...
  397. MattJ But I don't see that historical records are a hard requirement
  398. MattJ I see them as a nice thing to have, but I think publishing our current financial state and maintaining that going forwards is plenty of improvement already
  399. Kev What practical purpose would historical records have, compared to current?
  400. nyco_ trust?
  401. jonas’ middle-ground: add a note (to whereever this is going to be published) that historical records are not available in digital form, but can be requested by any member at any time
  402. Kev How is a lack of trust current presenting itself?
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  405. Kev How is a lack of trust currently presenting itself?
  406. nyco_ not sure, people asking on written form?
  407. Guus In the interest of time, let's move this to next week
  408. MattJ Kev, well, arguably I could have been colluding with Peter to siphon XSF funds into the Prosody project, hence my argument to keep the records closed :)
  409. nyco_ (guessing...)
  410. Guus Matt needs to go.
  411. Guus 6) AOB (that are pressing?)
  412. nyco_ nope
  413. MattJ I obviously haven't, but there is merit to having open historical records
  414. Guus 7) Date/Time of next +1w?
  415. MattJ wfm
  416. nyco_ +1
  417. Guus do we have DST changes upon us?
  418. Guus (it's that time of year)
  419. Guus we're all on the same switchover date, I think?
  420. Seve Yes, we are.
  421. MattJ in a few weeks at least
  422. nyco_ nope
  423. nyco_ ah ok, not this weekend
  424. Maranda has joined
  425. Guus Ok, we'll continue to use London time then, which should avoid us being affected at all
  426. Guus bangs gavel
  427. Guus thanks!
  428. nyco_ 26-27th Oct
  429. Seve Thank you :)
  430. nyco_ thx all!
  431. MattJ Thanks!
  432. MattJ I'll have to finish the minutes after my meetings today
  433. Guus Kev - I think the purpose of opening the books is to prevent a lack of trust manifesting itself.
  434. Guus not the other way around
  435. Kev Yes, and opening the books from now seems quite pragmatic and sensible. I'm not sure it's worth the effort of going back and reconstructing reports, given Peter's time is presumably not easy to come by.
  436. emus has left
  437. Kev But YMMV.
  438. Guus I appreciate that, but a) he offered, and b) it kind of comes with the role of being a Treasurer.
  439. Guus it's not that I suggest we pressure him into doing things
  440. Guus but as he offered, and I think it'd be good to have a full set of records, I'm inclined to take him up on that offer.
  441. Guus also, I'm happy for this to not be ready tomorrow.
  442. Seve I don't see any specific urgency on this, either. But I also do not expect members to request trust from Boards long time ago.
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  446. Guus I'm envisioning this as nothing more than a simple table, right - not extensive details
  447. Seve I guessed so.
  448. nyco_ anything you publish, you might have questions around it
  449. nyco_ if not objections
  450. Guus then we decide to not publish anything
  451. nyco_ hehehe
  452. Guus (which I think is a bad idea)
  453. nyco_ hide and stop doing things
  454. jonas’ Guus, there appears to be a full set of records, it’s just not public
  455. jonas’ thus my middle-ground suggestion above
  456. Guus jonas’ which I didn't dislike.
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