XSF Discussion - 2019-09-26

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  146. jonas’

    MattJ, after council meeting isn’t really going to work for me, I’m usually preparing dinner then. I assume weekends aren’t going to work for you?

  147. MattJ

    Usually not, but I might be able to make this Sunday work

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  150. jonas’

    SMS-based 2fa is very convenient with MAXS ;-) (cc and thx @ flow)

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  153. Ge0rG

    jonas’: it's also reducing the number of factors.

  154. jonas’

    Ge0rG, yeah

  155. jonas’

    although that depends really

  156. jonas’

    but in any case, I’m not fond of SMS based 2fa anyways

  157. jonas’

    I don’t trust the phone or phone network with that

  158. MattJ

    I agree, MAXS makes it easier

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  162. MattJ

    and it's not really removing a factor, it just means you have to have your phone or your laptop, the other factor is still the password

  163. MattJ

    Unless you have the password saved on the laptop :)

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  165. MattJ

    Huh, we swapped rooms

  166. Ge0rG

    MattJ: or in the app on your phone

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  218. nyco


  219. Kev


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  222. Guus


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  230. nyco_


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  232. nyco_


  233. nyco_

    Ralph is not joining, excused by email

  234. Seve

    Can someone else chair today, please?

  235. Guus

    Hi guys

  236. Guus

    MattJ - are you around?

  237. MattJ


  238. nyco_


  239. Guus bangs the gavel

  240. Guus

    Hello, and welcome to the umptieth edition of the XSF board meeting!

  241. Guus

    1) Role call and agenda

  242. MattJ


  243. Guus

    we've established that everyone is here, but Ralph that just sent an email to apologise

  244. Guus

    as usual, the agenda is driven by our Trello board at https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  245. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  246. MattJ

    Re. agenda: I propose we tackle some of the items we didn't cover last week, due to the length of the DOAP discussion last week

  247. Guus

    does anyone want us to address anything that's not on there?

  248. MattJ

    and if we have time, we can revisit DOAP

  249. Seve

    Yes, I would also like to do that, MattJ

  250. Guus

    I have no preference either way.

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  253. Seve

    (And I do not have anything for the agenda)

  254. Guus

    Unless nyco strongly objects within the next few moments, so it shall be then.

  255. Guus

    2) Confirm minute taker

  256. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  257. Guus

    Who would be so kind?

  258. nyco_

    I object this objection! :)

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  260. MattJ

    I'll do it

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  262. Guus

    Anyone? We'd be helped a lot by someone taking notes, compiling them and sending them on the members lists after the meeting. There's nothing more to it.

  263. Guus

    Thanks MattJ - if anyone that's not also taking part in the discussion would consider doing this next time(s), please!

  264. Guus

    3) Topics for decisions

  265. Guus

    3.1) Sponsorship request

  266. MattJ

    Ralph isn't here, but indicated he would rather decline this unless we can determine their relationship with XMPP

  267. Guus

    we received this offer: > I represent a company called TheBestVPN.com and we'd like to make a sponsorship for XMPP. > Can you let us know if you're accepting any new sponsorship request and are there any perks associated with it?

  268. MattJ

    Also, relatedly, I just searched my inbox to find the email from Peter

  269. MattJ

    and turned up an email from someone at TheBestVPN.com to a Debian mailing list, which looked like a thinly-veiled SEO attempt

  270. Seve

    I tried to find some information about them on the Internet but it is not quite clear to me if there is a real support for XMPP or it is a "kind of SEO request"

  271. Guus

    I'm not sure if we should limit ourselves to sponsors that have a direct relation to XMPP

  272. nyco_

    fine, so be it: it's no

  273. MattJ

    I don't see anything particularly shady in any of it itself, but we've previously declined SEO-only sponsors, and I'm inclined to maintain this policy

  274. nyco_

    do we need to debate more?

  275. Guus

    I do think we should not have sponsors that only want to use us for blatant SEO

  276. nyco_

    they are bad SEO then, because you can some for free

  277. Guus

    Well, this guy didn't say/do anything to suggest that this is a SEO attempt.

  278. Seve

    Guus, I think we should not close the doors to any sponsors, either XMPP supporters or not, but yeah, not only SEO requests

  279. Guus

    He just offered to sponsor, and asked about the perks.

  280. Seve


  281. Guus

    I see no harm in pointing him at the website that lists the perks.

  282. Ge0rG

    related: https://www.pcmag.com/news/367640/how-a-vpn-review-site-dominated-google-search-with-a-scam

  283. Guus

    Thanks Ge0rG - that's a troubling headline.

  284. MattJ

    Based on everything I've seen so far, and the email to the Debian list, it's 99.99% likely to be SEO-related

  285. Guus

    Given that, I suggest that we reject based on the shady history of the company, and that we're reluctant to be associated to that.

  286. Ge0rG

    I suggest to drop and not to reject.

  287. nyco_

    yes, please, let's reject it

  288. Guus

    Ge0rG ?

  289. Ge0rG

    don't reply at all, that reduces the risk of long discussions.

  290. nyco_


  291. Guus

    He already sent a follow-up question. I'll try to formulate a response - that's the least we can do.

  292. Ge0rG

    people who are good at SEO are also good at sending follow-up requests

  293. Guus

    so, we reject this offer due to the perceived SEO-nature and non-positive history of the company?

  294. nyco_

    on LinuxFr, I usually reject kindly all ads, promoted content, links exchanges, partnerships... explicity, it helps I get a "thank you" almost every time

  295. nyco_

    I'd reject based on non-relatedness to XMPP

  296. Ge0rG

    Any kind of rejection needs to be well argued based on our public policy.

  297. Guus

    I don't want to reject it based on non-XMPP relationship. That's an excuse.

  298. nyco_

    no one in that company has written XMPP software, no one is a member => correct assumption?

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  300. Ge0rG

    Writing a proper rejection will be some work.

  301. MattJ

    I know why you would say "don't limit us to XMPP-related things only", but if someone wants to sponsor us who is not related to XMPP or aligned with the XSF's goals, what could their motives be?

  302. nyco_

    no, it's quite easy and fast

  303. Seve

    Apart from SEO... Hmm

  304. MattJ

    SEO is top of that list

  305. Seve

    Good people?

  306. Seve


  307. Guus

    MattJ supporting OSS / Open standards?

  308. Seve


  309. MattJ

    Guus, that aligns with our goals, obviously

  310. nyco_

    I feel we're wasting too much time on this

  311. Guus

    I tend to agree nyco.

  312. MattJ

    Well, we're not just really discussing this request, but how to deal with requests of this kind (this is not the first and it won't be the last)

  313. Guus

    I'll draft a rejection reply, and share it with board.

  314. nyco_


  315. Guus

    if there's no consensus via mail, we can pick this up again next week.

  316. MattJ

    Ultimately we could provide Peter with some guidance on how to handle these himself

  317. MattJ

    Instead of every inbound SEO request ending up on Board's agenda

  318. MattJ

    which believe me, doesn't happen in any other sane organisation

  319. Guus

    given that this is our second request in as many years... 🙂

  320. nyco_

    we get two or three such requests per month on LinuxFr.org

  321. nyco_

    it takes 5 min each

  322. MattJ

    Then maybe no general action is needed, let's just ask Peter to kindly reject with a one-liner

  323. Seve

    We would need to check if he said he would forward it to Board

  324. Guus

    I'll send the one-liner.

  325. Guus

    Let's move on

  326. Seve

    Ok, thank you.

  327. Guus

    4) Commitment for the week ahead

  328. Guus

    I'm skipping over the issues with Ralph's face tagged to it, as he's not here

  329. Guus

    which leaves

  330. Guus

    4.1) GSOC '19 evaluation

  331. Guus

    Nyco, I'm seeing your name attached to that

  332. Guus

    Do we want to do anything here?

  333. nyco_

    yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GSoC_2019 or not... just asked the commTeam

  334. nyco_

    sorry, it went out of my mind

  335. Guus

    No worries, I have a similar mind 🙂

  336. nyco_

    we are closing the newsletter tomorrow, we'll send a PR on GitHub, for a publication on Tue 1st Oct

  337. nyco_

    so either someone write a short piece

  338. Guus

    comms related to this is good, but not something that board is needed for.

  339. nyco_

    or we forget it

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  341. nyco_


  342. Guus

    do we want to evaluate the process itself? Eg: flow organizing things for the first time?

  343. nyco_

    he hasn't got time for this, I asked

  344. Guus

    I think I pinged him on that, but forgot his response, if I got any.

  345. Guus

    Ok - Is there anyone that feels an evaluation is needed?

  346. Guus

    We seem to hav had a successful gsoc?

  347. nyco_

    maybe a summary could do, as a reminder for our newsletter readers

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  350. nyco_

    (and contribute to SEO as well...)

  351. Seve

    Ideally I would like someone related to it

  352. Guus

    that's comms again 🙂

  353. Guus

    (and: fine by me)

  354. Guus

    I'm not hearing anyone particularly wanting to go over this.

  355. nyco_

    I'll try, low proba it will end up in the newsletter

  356. Ge0rG

    Aren't there blogs kept by all participants? A summary could link those.

  357. Guus

    Yeah, I intended this to be not about comms

  358. Guus

    but more around the question: do we want to organize things differently next year?

  359. Guus

    I don't see any reason to, and as I'm having trouble getting this discussion off the ground, let's skip it completely and thank Flow and others involved for their effort.

  360. Seve

    That would require input from the people involved in it, I can't tell much, unfortunately.

  361. Guus

    5) Items for discussion

  362. Guus

    5.1) Publicize XSF financials

  363. Guus

    This is in response to a question I received from an XSF Member about the state of the XSF financials.

  364. Guus

    let me quote some stuff

  365. Seve

    Where they done public in the past? I've read that by someone but can't remember who :)

  366. Guus

    > Earlier today, a member had detailed questions on XSF financials (what do we spend money on, how do we obtain money, etc). He asked if/why data was private. > I had to admit that I simply didn't know. I feel that much of this isn't private data, but I don't think we publicly share information either. > There's a least one member that hinted at us being secretive about the financials. I don't think that's necessarily true, but since we've not been publishing any information, I can see how that can be perceived as being secretive. > Someone else mentioned that the XSF has been 'more open' about this in the past. I'm thinking that the lack of information sharing is largely caused by people being less active, and not so much a deliberate attempt at withholding data. What do you think? > I'd hate for people to feel that we're doing things in the dark here. If we did things differently before, can you share on what worked well at that time?

  367. Seve

    Just to know how things went previously, etc

  368. Guus

    that was all me, to Peter

  369. Guus

    Peter responded: > The board has never set a policy on this. If we want to open the books, it is easy enough to do. and > Well, "secretive" is a bit strong. In the far past we posted a kind of spreadsheet on the website, describing various expenses. I'd be happy to do that again, and even reconstruct expenses for all the years between then and now. Naturally it will take me some time to generate that information from file folders in my safe. 🙂

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  371. Guus

    (that concludes my quoting of things)

  372. Guus

    I'd not mind taking Peter up on that offer.

  373. Seve

    That helps a lot, really

  374. MattJ

    Is backfilling a requirement?

  375. Guus

    Which in my perspective is basically picking up where we left off.

  376. jonas’

    floor comment: I suggest we don’t put too much load on peter in htis regard and do not ask for expense summaries since back then

  377. MattJ

    I agree, I'd rather not provide Peter with more work if we can help it

  378. nyco_

    agree, it's a question of RoI

  379. Guus

    I disagree. If we do make things public, it shouldn't have gaps.

  380. nyco_

    ROTI, return on time invested

  381. jonas’

    unless a majority of members wants that information, of course

  382. pep.

    MattJ: is as one of the people to ask about this, I don't mind if it's just from now on.

  383. Guus

    also, I'm guessing that the work involved is light, as he already should have administation

  384. MattJ

    Guus, we make things public from today, I don't see the problem

  385. MattJ

    He said himself it will "take some time"

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  387. Guus

    Sure, doesn't need to happen overnight

  388. nyco_

    can we easily track the board's decisions regarding spending?

  389. Guus

    but I think it's sensible to have a complete record.

  390. MattJ

    I feel it's unfair to ask him to put in that time just to satisfy the curiosity of a couple of folks, when just general overview of current+future would be fine

  391. Guus

    also, he offered without being asked to.

  392. MattJ

    We're over time again and I need to prep for my next meeting

  393. Guus

    I'm not seeing this as satisfying curiosity, but as a way to be transparant as an organisastion.

  394. Guus

    Ok, can we conclude this before you go?

  395. MattJ

    I've no objection to transparency

  396. nyco_

    yep, we are fully transparent with the board, holding meetings in public...

  397. MattJ

    But I don't see that historical records are a hard requirement

  398. MattJ

    I see them as a nice thing to have, but I think publishing our current financial state and maintaining that going forwards is plenty of improvement already

  399. Kev

    What practical purpose would historical records have, compared to current?

  400. nyco_


  401. jonas’

    middle-ground: add a note (to whereever this is going to be published) that historical records are not available in digital form, but can be requested by any member at any time

  402. Kev

    How is a lack of trust current presenting itself?

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  405. Kev

    How is a lack of trust currently presenting itself?

  406. nyco_

    not sure, people asking on written form?

  407. Guus

    In the interest of time, let's move this to next week

  408. MattJ

    Kev, well, arguably I could have been colluding with Peter to siphon XSF funds into the Prosody project, hence my argument to keep the records closed :)

  409. nyco_


  410. Guus

    Matt needs to go.

  411. Guus

    6) AOB (that are pressing?)

  412. nyco_


  413. MattJ

    I obviously haven't, but there is merit to having open historical records

  414. Guus

    7) Date/Time of next +1w?

  415. MattJ


  416. nyco_


  417. Guus

    do we have DST changes upon us?

  418. Guus

    (it's that time of year)

  419. Guus

    we're all on the same switchover date, I think?

  420. Seve

    Yes, we are.

  421. MattJ

    in a few weeks at least

  422. nyco_


  423. nyco_

    ah ok, not this weekend

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  425. Guus

    Ok, we'll continue to use London time then, which should avoid us being affected at all

  426. Guus bangs gavel

  427. Guus


  428. nyco_

    26-27th Oct

  429. Seve

    Thank you :)

  430. nyco_

    thx all!

  431. MattJ


  432. MattJ

    I'll have to finish the minutes after my meetings today

  433. Guus

    Kev - I think the purpose of opening the books is to prevent a lack of trust manifesting itself.

  434. Guus

    not the other way around

  435. Kev

    Yes, and opening the books from now seems quite pragmatic and sensible. I'm not sure it's worth the effort of going back and reconstructing reports, given Peter's time is presumably not easy to come by.

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  437. Kev

    But YMMV.

  438. Guus

    I appreciate that, but a) he offered, and b) it kind of comes with the role of being a Treasurer.

  439. Guus

    it's not that I suggest we pressure him into doing things

  440. Guus

    but as he offered, and I think it'd be good to have a full set of records, I'm inclined to take him up on that offer.

  441. Guus

    also, I'm happy for this to not be ready tomorrow.

  442. Seve

    I don't see any specific urgency on this, either. But I also do not expect members to request trust from Boards long time ago.

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  446. Guus

    I'm envisioning this as nothing more than a simple table, right - not extensive details

  447. Seve

    I guessed so.

  448. nyco_

    anything you publish, you might have questions around it

  449. nyco_

    if not objections

  450. Guus

    then we decide to not publish anything

  451. nyco_


  452. Guus

    (which I think is a bad idea)

  453. nyco_

    hide and stop doing things

  454. jonas’

    Guus, there appears to be a full set of records, it’s just not public

  455. jonas’

    thus my middle-ground suggestion above

  456. Guus

    jonas’ which I didn't dislike.

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