XSF Discussion - 2019-10-05

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06:36:38 pep. Ge0rG: ah ok, I didn't remember the outcome but I remembered there was something about it
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08:23:51 lovetox_ lately i ran into following problem with the MUC protocol
08:24:02 lovetox_ send a presence to a MUC
08:24:08 lovetox_ Muc does not answer for 20 seconds
08:24:29 lovetox_ i give the user a option to abort this join (close the window or whatever)
08:24:45 lovetox_ only this does not reflect the truth, i have not really a possibility to abort the join
08:25:07 lovetox_ so user presses abort, and naturally tries again to join the room
08:25:38 lovetox_ another presence is sent out, now suddenly server responds to the first presence, sends stuff, then does the same for the second presence
08:26:02 lovetox_ i have no possibility to know what happend because of first presence, and what happens because of last presence
08:27:00 lovetox_ now i could send a presence unavailable on first abort
08:27:29 lovetox_ this brings me into even more trouble, now the server sends all presences, then disconnects me from the muc, then starts again to send stuff
08:27:49 lovetox_ all in all nothing i want to really deal with
08:27:55 lovetox_ maybe i should remove the abort button
08:28:02 lovetox_ there is no aborting a muc join
08:28:23 Ge0rG lovetox_: modern MUCs will treat a join presence (with an x element) as a request for a full sync.
08:28:53 Ge0rG And yes, there is no way to abort anything in xmpp land.
08:29:12 Ge0rG Which is why it's silly to have things end in a hard timeout.
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08:29:45 lovetox_ then this muc join is in limbo and if a user complains i just tell him server should answer eventually
08:29:45 Ge0rG OTOH some network conditions may well lead to a request getting black holed.
08:30:11 Ge0rG So that the MUC doesn't even know that you tried joining.
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08:30:32 Ge0rG This can be solved with s2s 0198, which nobody has ever tested.
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08:30:57 Ge0rG Because you know, TCP is a reliable protocol
08:32:54 jonas’ lovetox_, the second presence with <x/> should not screw up anything in the scenario you described
08:33:10 jonas’ in fact, I think it should be safe to re-send join presences with exponential back off similar to how TCP sends SYNs
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08:49:20 jonas’ Kev, pinging you again regarding the hub.docker.com stuff. You seem to be the only one active who has the permissions.
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08:51:33 Ge0rG jonas’: but one needs to know where the old join ends and the new one starts.
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08:52:18 Ge0rG Maybe we need a unique ID on the join stanza, and the server ignoring duplicates?
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09:02:59 flow > Ge0rG> jonas’: but one needs to know where the old join ends and the new one starts. do you?
09:03:02 jonas’ Ge0rG, that’d be great
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09:03:45 jonas’ Ge0rG, flow, not in the scenario lovetox_ described, I think. You’d get (a) a full initial set of presence, (b) all presence hcanges between a and c, and (c) another full set of initial presence
09:03:53 jonas’ there’s quite a bit of redundancy, but the state should be correct and complete
09:04:03 jonas’ although, it will be confusing if you requested MUC history
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09:08:45 flow jonas’, i'd guessed and hoped that something like that happens, but of course this could be MUC service (and client) implementation dependent. But nevertheless joining and (potentially other MUC actions) could and should get improved, and we should consider those things in groupchat-ng protocols
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09:37:28 Ge0rG If only somebody thought that through for MIX
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09:41:34 jonas’ mix is at least a step forward in that regard
09:41:43 jonas’ that we don’t have a proper solution for s2s failures yet is a problem, indeed
09:41:51 jonas’ but that’s not a problem unique to mix or muc actually
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09:43:42 Ge0rG We also need something for mobile clients that are killed after 10s in the background. A solution that doesn't involve persisting all runtime state, MUCs, and contact presence to disk
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09:45:45 Zash Can you really fix that with protocol design?
09:46:45 jonas’ "WhatsApp works"
09:47:07 Ge0rG Zash: yes
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09:50:09 Ge0rG With roster versioning, no presence broadcast and MAM we already have a moderately expensive solution. We now only need to replace presence with a PEP based status thing, as suggested by Kev.
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09:54:58 Ge0rG BTW, what are the rules for delivering subscription requests to clients that don't send presence?
09:55:43 jonas’ "don’t"?
09:56:06 Ge0rG Oh, and the above thing doesn't include MUC. We don't have a solution for that yet
09:56:10 jonas’ Instead, if a subscription request requires approval then the contact's server MUST deliver that request to the contact's available resource(s) for approval or denial by the contact.
09:56:13 jonas’ RFC 6121
09:56:20 jonas’ RFC 6121, 3.1.3. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#section-3.1.3
09:57:47 jonas’ 4. Otherwise, if the contact has no available resources when the subscription request is received by the contact's server, then the contact's server MUST keep a record of the complete presence stanza comprising the subscription request, including any extended content contained therein (see Section 8.4 of [XMPP-CORE]), and then deliver the request when the contact next has an available resource.
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10:00:16 Zash It's XMPP, not XMP
10:01:10 jonas’ Ge0rG, MIX would help in that regard, because it’s the user’s server which fully manages the joins
10:01:24 jonas’ and those will be in a PEP node in the future so that you’re kept up-to-date to some extent.
10:01:42 rion SIMS xep says "The file element is the same as from Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2]. It MUST specify media-type, size, description, and one or multiple hash elements" Is "description" element really MUST?
10:03:25 Ge0rG jonas’: yes, it's an improvement indeed. But will you get differential updates on the member list?
10:03:25 Zash PEP without presence doesn't work either
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10:03:40 jonas’ Ge0rG, member list is a PEP node
10:03:50 jonas’ Ge0rG, member list is a PubSub node
10:03:56 Ge0rG jonas’: that's not an answer
10:04:04 jonas’ and supposedly there’s a way to MAM-query PubSub nodes, although I never understood how
10:04:14 jonas’ supposedly the MAM archive of a PubSub node would be the history of messages it sent
10:04:18 jonas’ supposedly the MAM archive of a PubSub node would be the history of notification messages it sent
10:04:20 jonas’ in which case, yes.
10:04:26 Ge0rG Is it a one item node like old bookmarks?
10:04:32 jonas’ I don’t think so
10:04:52 jonas’ > Each channel participant is represented as an item of the 'urn:xmpp:mix:nodes:participants' channel node.
10:05:02 Ge0rG Zash: I'm sure we can figure out a way
10:07:56 flow rion, appears so
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10:08:16 Ge0rG I don't think it makes much sense, though
10:10:15 flow rion, although that appears to be not in line with xep234
10:11:35 flow or, at least, I would expect that SIMS would require at least media-type, size and name (not description)
10:12:46 rion Agreed
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10:17:34 Ge0rG In JFT, the <description> is the required container element, and the description text is in the optional <desc> element
10:18:01 Ge0rG So what are we talking about?
10:18:25 rion <desc>
10:22:07 flow which we may should rename to something like <description-text/>
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10:41:42 lovetox_ jonas, the problem is the UI with my scenario
10:41:55 lovetox_ of course a library in itself would have the correct state after 2 joins
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10:43:17 lovetox_ but having the UI display the correct state is the challenge
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10:45:24 lovetox_ and yes it would be very helpful if we could add a unique join id to the presence, which is replicated on while joining on all the presences
10:47:10 lovetox_ i dont see a problem with subject and messages, you got to have message deduplication anyway
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10:53:19 lovetox_ hm presences should also not be a problem, i could just update the ones i have already in my roster
10:53:35 lovetox_ the real problem for me is that i dont know when the MUC join is finished
10:53:48 lovetox_ normally i display a "joining.." label
10:54:37 jonas’ lovetox_, you know it’s finished when you get the <subject/>
10:54:43 lovetox_ now i abort my first join, open the window again in haft of the first join, now i have half of all presences, then this join completes, i show the UI
10:54:49 lovetox_ but then the second join starts
10:54:59 jonas’ the second join is fully deduplicated, isn’t it?
10:56:11 lovetox_ yes .. still my plan was to *not* show the groupchat UI *while* joining
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10:56:36 lovetox_ so the first join signals my UI join completed, i show the UI with probably half of the users
10:56:44 lovetox_ then second join starts
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10:57:01 lovetox_ but yeah think these are edge cases
10:57:15 lovetox_ still a simple IQ flow would be much better
10:57:30 lovetox_ where i get at the end a IQ join=complete
10:57:32 lovetox_ like with mam
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10:57:52 Zash How is that different from subject?
10:58:12 lovetox_ because the subject only tells you *a* join completed
10:58:14 lovetox_ not which one
10:58:26 lovetox_ of the 3 you send, while the server didnt answer
10:58:38 Zash right
10:59:25 Zash It should still be idempotent tho?
10:59:49 lovetox_ idempotent?
11:00:18 Zash If you get a second join result it should just set everything to the existing values
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11:02:20 Zash But wouldn't you be able to identify which join is which by looking at your own presence?
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11:03:45 lovetox_ would i?
11:03:59 lovetox_ does the self presence has the same id as the join presence?
11:06:09 lovetox_ as we determined before, state should be correct even on 2 joins
11:06:32 lovetox_ the problem that i have is the first join signals my UI im finished, when i reality the second is still in progress
11:07:20 lovetox_ i think this is only solveable if we would have some identifier in the join presence, which is at some point returned
11:11:45 lovetox_ i think how muc join was made is a anti-pattern, much better to make things clear with IQs
11:13:26 Zash I tend to agree
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11:16:13 Ge0rG It's significantly improved over GC1.0 still
11:16:41 Zash Yes
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11:16:58 jonas’ ITYM Xabber Group Chat
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14:32:53 Zash Does anything use the 'continue' error type?
14:35:34 Zash looks at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0310.html#mucoccupant
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14:38:34 Zash Might be nice to send some "keep calm and wait while we establish s2s"
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17:57:04 larma Anyone had a chance to check my last weeks mail https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-September/036495.html ?
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18:32:02 lovetox_ yeah also thought this would get at least one response :/
18:32:58 Zash Multi-session-nick is fairly underspecified
18:40:54 Zash larma, vcards have been public, so I'd say "no" to that part
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18:53:00 lovetox_ Zash i think it would be nice if prosody adds a "Dont route IQs to other participants" room config option
18:53:04 lovetox_ ejabberd has this
18:53:53 Zash File an issue. I also want to be able to disable PMs.
18:54:11 lovetox_ yes
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18:54:56 Zash Would that be full JID routing or also break all vcards?
18:55:57 lovetox_ of course it would break vcard, and thats actually exactly the use case
18:55:58 lovetox_ :)
18:56:25 lovetox_ 1. routing just is doesnt work good or is underspecified for the multi session nick thing
18:56:28 lovetox_ 2. its a privacy issue
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18:57:03 lovetox_ even more so now that prosody even routes it to the pubsub component
18:57:15 jonas’ prosody just routes (some IQs) to the bare JID
18:57:44 lovetox_ or rather the pubsub component answers for the user
18:57:56 jonas’ you mean PEP?
18:58:00 lovetox_ yes
18:58:03 Zash No, it routes to the bare JID
18:58:08 jonas’ I wouldn’t call that "pubsub component" to avoid confusion
18:58:21 Zash It was ejabberd that answers vCard requests to full JIDs
18:58:22 Zash iric
18:58:25 Zash iirc*
18:58:36 lovetox_ which is correct if you go by the XEP isnt it?
18:58:45 Zash wat
18:58:48 lovetox_ the vcard xep says server should answer it for the user
18:58:53 Zash wat
18:59:07 lovetox_ otherwise how would you request a vcard of an offline user?
18:59:51 jonas’ lovetox_, ask the bare JID?
18:59:52 Zash wat
19:01:54 lovetox_ look either we want vcard in muc to work nicely, than a server should answer any vcard request for the user bare or full jid
19:02:17 lovetox_ or we dont want it in a muc (anon maybe), then the muc should not even start to route IQs
19:03:26 Zash If the XEP says that the server should respond to requests to full JIDs then the XEP is wrong and diverges from how everything else in XMPP works.
19:03:37 lovetox_ no it says to respond to bare jid
19:03:57 lovetox_ and how is this ever going to work in MUC?
19:04:07 lovetox_ how can i address your bare jid in a anon room?
19:04:18 Zash You can't.
19:04:29 Zash Server can forward the request to your bare JID, like Prosody does
19:05:26 lovetox_ and you do this now for any IQ request
19:05:50 Zash No, only for a small set of known namespaces, namely vcard-temp, pubsub and vcard4.
19:06:06 lovetox_ yeah and you dont see this as a problem?
19:06:10 Zash No
19:06:17 lovetox_ this is nowhere specificed, its a hack
19:06:25 lovetox_ and one that is a privacy issue on top
19:06:39 Zash As was the vcard-temp routing thing.
19:06:59 Zash However that's considered public data
19:07:24 lovetox_ i consider it public data to people who know my adress
19:07:38 Zash Don't put it in your globally public vcard then
19:08:20 Zash What is the point of the JABBERID field?
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19:09:44 lovetox_ As i said its fine for people who know my adress, if i join a anon room, the point of the room is exactly to prevent people getting my real adress, but now it seems they dont even need it, because the server is happily routing to the bare jid and giving me the answer
19:10:28 lovetox_ im not saying we should prevent routing IQs, it just should be revisited for public anon rooms
19:10:46 lovetox_ and for non-anon rooms you dont have to route IQs at all
19:10:57 lovetox_ clients should just request the real bare jid
19:12:19 lovetox_ so who needs these public anon rooms that compromise the privacy of their participants? What use case do they fullfill exactly
19:13:21 lovetox_ You want Avatars, public omemo keys, other *private* data, then make your room non-anon and every user that joins knows what he gets into
19:13:57 lovetox_ this idea, i make my room anon, but still keep all features of non-anon rooms, is a bad solution
19:14:30 lovetox_ and i would argue its to the disadvantage of all users that join
19:17:02 Zash I think you exaggerate the privacy impact somewhat.
19:17:23 Zash I also never said I was against having this as a setting.
19:18:15 pep. I don't think saying "public vcard is a privacy issue" is an eggageration :x
19:18:58 Zash Don't put stuff there if you don't want it public for everyone everywhere, which is how vcard-temp works.
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19:19:37 jonas’ to be fair, I was also surprised that my avatar is exposed in anon MUCs
19:21:26 Zash We got tons of complaints IIRC when we made vcards (via the PEP-conversion stuff) respect the privacy settings of the corresponding PEP nodes.
19:21:41 Zash So, people have varying expectations.
19:22:06 pep. Ah that reminds me I need to open an issue about that
19:22:10 lovetox_ yes Zash, thats because we did water down anon rooms, so people dont even know anymore what they are there for
19:22:11 Zash Now Prosody makes those public by default, but still respects it if you change their settings.
19:22:28 pep. Prosody still broadcasts my avatar hash in the presence even though I have access_model of vcard4 set to presence
19:22:33 pep. in MUCs*
19:22:52 Zash avatar and vcard4s are separate nodes tho
19:23:00 pep. k
19:23:03 Zash And you can have separate permissions. I do, in fact.
19:23:10 pep. I also do have that node set to presence I think
19:23:14 Zash If you query my vcard through here you only get the avatrarwavatar
19:23:19 lovetox_ And Zash, im not arguing against prosody here, this issue was raised by larma on the last sprint, and we discussed it, and now try to raise awareness in the community
19:23:41 lovetox_ so even if the discussion started with me, asking you for these settings, its more of a general discussion
19:24:02 Zash Some of the problem is that there are two separate issues
19:24:11 lovetox_ in my opinion we should make the consequences clear what anon means, and follow through with it
19:24:27 Zash Or more?
19:24:32 lovetox_ not try and find ways how we can water down anon
19:24:51 lovetox_ how we can bring features to anon that can not work with anon
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19:25:24 Zash You mean semi-anon? True anon rooms is dead afaik.
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19:26:49 lovetox_ yeah of course
19:27:08 lovetox_ i would not go that route arguing true anon is not possible so also fuck semi-anon
19:27:09 Zash I feel like this is a topic for a summit, rather than late saturday. :)
19:27:15 lovetox_ there is a good usecase for semi-anon
19:27:47 lovetox_ but just to be clear, there is no XEP or RFC that tells a muc to route IQs to the bare jid is it?
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19:28:38 pep. lovetox_, what larma quoted in his mail no?
19:28:44 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#bizrules-iq ?
19:29:07 pep. That doesn't specify bare or full though
19:29:13 lovetox_ ah its not specified
19:29:14 lovetox_ lol
19:29:23 lovetox_ yeah thats a real fail here
19:29:35 Zash Nor which one if there's MSN involved.
19:30:04 Zash I believe prosody picks one (probably the first) as the "primary" session and sends to that.
19:30:08 lovetox_ i mean it would be fine if you route to full jid
19:30:20 lovetox_ then the client can decide itself if he wants to reveal his data or not
19:30:36 jonas’ although larma argued that even that isn’t good enough from a privacy perspective.
19:30:39 Zash That lets yo do timeing things.
19:31:02 jonas’ and you wouldn’t want to DoS a client which joins a busy semi-anon MUC and then has to upload its avatar a gazillion times.
19:31:26 jonas’ (see also https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3419 )
19:32:13 lovetox_ jonas its already ddosed with disco info requests :D
19:32:24 jonas’ avatars are an order of magnitude worse though
19:32:28 jonas’ or a few orders actually
19:32:42 Zash disco#info could be cached
19:32:45 lovetox_ if you want to do it real good, you would have to activate on your server to answer vcard requests to full jids for you
19:32:57 lovetox_ Zash avatars are also cached
19:32:59 jonas’ lovetox_, guess what, that exists already
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19:33:08 jonas’ that’s why vcard is handled by the bare JID ;)
19:33:22 lovetox_ i mean a user configurable setting
19:33:28 lovetox_ not a server admin setting
19:33:34 jonas’ that exists, it’s the visibility of the avatar pubsub node nowadays
19:33:46 jonas’ at least for some implementations, and that’s even specified
19:34:01 jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0398.html#security
19:34:07 lovetox_ hm yes this could work
19:34:46 Zash As I mentioned, you can fiddle with access control on the avatar and vcard4 nodes to do nice things.
19:34:48 lovetox_ so if i set it to presence, then my avatar is hidden
19:35:06 pep. Maybe we need to add something like "also adjust presence broadcast if a user decides to use something else than open
19:35:07 jonas’ I always forget whether directed presence counts for `presence` or not
19:35:15 Zash jonas’: not
19:35:25 jonas’ k
19:35:40 lovetox_ yeah fine workaround, im of the opinion we should deactivate IQ routing in anon rooms by default
19:35:55 jonas’ lovetox_, I tend to agree with that
19:36:09 Zash "presence" is an awkward name for it since it's based on roster (presence) subscriptions
19:40:39 larma The whole privacy model of vcard and public pep is based on the idea that a person still needs to know your real jid to access them. With semi-anon MUCs that's not the case anymore. Especially in prosodys now also routing pubsub IQs such that they can actually be replied by the server means that I only have two options: Not use OMEMO with non-roster contacts *or* reveal my identity in every semi-anon MUC
19:42:20 larma (I would probably opt for the first, if not every client would now by default make OMEMO pep nodes public)
19:47:06 lovetox_ Zash, whats the motiviation behind not allowing PMs?
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19:47:55 Zash lovetox_, ever had people join your support room and then PM you support questions?
19:50:05 Zash IIRC it's also been requested by others. Don't remember their motivation. I'm sure there's use for it.
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19:53:28 jonas’ I would like to turn off PMs as a user right now.
19:54:06 larma My problem is that I can not rely in any way on IQ routing in semi-anon MUCs, because behavior is diverting between servers. That's why we should at least define the correct behavior. And IMO correct behavior is not to randomly send some IQs to bare and some to full JID
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19:54:41 jonas’ larma, I agree on the first part, but I’m not sure on the second part
19:54:55 jonas’ although if we had to pin it down one way, I’d say "route to bare JID"
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19:57:43 larma Well, if we say some IQs are routed to bare and some to full, we would need servers to somehow indicate what they are doing, because it might update...
19:58:02 jonas’ similar to how we version carbon rules at the moment, indeed
19:59:35 lovetox_ larma, server should add a config options to muc, default to not route IQs, and advertise the setting in disco info
19:59:55 lovetox_ then the client can warn its users before joining such a anon but still routing IQs MUC
20:00:39 chronosx88 Hey, guys. Does MAM support for chat room state changes? (E.g. chat room name or subject)
20:00:42 larma lovetox_, yes that would work
20:01:00 jonas’ chronosx88, subject yes, name not
20:01:28 Zash Does it?
20:01:32 chronosx88 And how offline user will know, that room name is changed?
20:02:06 lovetox_ jonas, i dont think subject changes are in MAM
20:02:19 jonas’ lovetox_, oh
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20:02:32 jonas’ chronosx88, I guess you’d query that when you rejoin the room
20:02:46 chronosx88 Ehm...
20:02:50 lovetox_ chronosx88, you do a disco info to the muc before you join
20:03:12 lovetox_ and if the room name changes, the muc has to issue a status code for changed configuration
20:03:27 lovetox_ which should trigger your client to do again a disco info to get the new name
20:04:46 chronosx88 I just comparing XMPP and Matrix by technical abilities and simplicity
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20:05:59 lovetox_ MAM is a message archive, it does not hold any configuration infos of MUCs
20:06:19 lovetox_ all configuration info is available via disco info to the muc jid
20:06:39 lovetox_ and all changes to the configuration are announced via message to joined and even not joined participants
20:06:47 lovetox_ (if they are in the member list of a muc=)
20:08:21 chronosx88 And... How it can synchronized when user didn't open client?
20:08:22 lovetox_ and you should disco info a muc before you join if you certain configuration fields like muc name are important to you
20:08:41 chronosx88 > And... How it can synchronized when user didn't open client? Or really is offline.
20:08:58 lovetox_ im not sure what you mean, if you are offline per definition nothing can be synced
20:09:02 lovetox_ because you are offline
20:09:12 chronosx88 Yeah
20:09:41 lovetox_ if you start your client, and join the rooms the user was in last time
20:09:57 lovetox_ before you join, the client sends a disco info to the muc, to get the current configuration
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20:10:02 lovetox_ you could call that the "sync"
20:10:08 chronosx88 Ok
20:10:20 lovetox_ from that point on if you are joined, and configuration changes while you are online and joined
20:10:23 lovetox_ the muc informs you about it
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20:10:45 chronosx88 Another question: how I can sync unread messages count between clients?
20:11:23 lovetox_ your best bet is XEP-0333 chat markers
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20:11:25 chronosx88 And point in chat room, when I last time stopped reading
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20:11:48 chronosx88 > your best bet is XEP-0333 chat markers Hm... Ok, will read it
20:12:06 lovetox_ where you stopped reading is a client UX problem, with chat markers, you can mark the messages you read on a client
20:12:16 lovetox_ and sync this info to your other clients, which can act accordingly
20:12:18 Zash Did anyone have plans to make a PEP based unread message tracking thing?
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20:13:15 larma Zash, why?
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20:14:59 Zash IIRC there was talk about something like that, or at least changing 333.
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20:16:41 pep. Zash, on, I'd like that
20:16:55 pep. To sync reading state between clients
20:17:11 larma but you can already do that using MAM, no?
20:17:19 pep. Can you?
20:17:20 Zash How?
20:18:03 larma well if a 333 marker is send as a message, MAM should store it
20:18:13 larma > Clients SHOULD use Message Archiving (XEP-0136) [7] or Message Archive Management (XEP-0313) [8] to support offline updating of Chat Markers. Chat Markers SHOULD be archived, so they can be fetched and set regardless of whether the other users in a chat are online. from 333
20:19:30 pep. Sending only 333 to myself then?
20:19:32 Zash Never seen that before.
20:19:47 pep. I don't especially want others to know
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20:20:10 lovetox_ pep., i think this would be possible
20:20:15 lovetox_ you could send chatmarkers to yourself
20:20:38 lovetox_ its very ugly because you get a hell of duplicated messages
20:20:48 pep. yeah
20:20:54 lovetox_ but i think this would work
20:20:58 larma Ah right, If you don't want the other end to know, 333 is probably not best suited
20:21:07 lovetox_ BUT only if you use unique stanza ids in every conversation
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20:21:12 lovetox_ otherwise you lose the context
20:23:38 larma Yeah, makes sense, if you don't want to send to other end, PEP is better than MAM
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20:36:24 lovetox_ you could do this analog to bookmarks 2
20:36:37 lovetox_ one node, with X items, and item-id = jid of contact
20:36:52 lovetox_ then add the current stanza id that you read
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