XSF Discussion - 2019-10-08

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  141. jonas’ I nominate dwd to be our new department of troll marketing.
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  143. jonas’ I nominate dwd to be our new department of sarcastic(?) marketing.
  144. Daniel at least he doesn’t repost the same joke 5 times in a span of a week. scnr :-)
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  152. Ge0rG Daniel: that was mean(ingful)!
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  317. moparisthebest Does anyone have a link documenting the numerous vulns clients had relating to xhtml-im ?
  318. moparisthebest I was hoping for a mailing list post or wiki page...
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  320. dwd There was Waqas's presentation about a decade back. (Maybe more recent than that, I forget).
  321. Zash Also, can someone explain to me how Matrix and Mastodon and pretty much everything else gets away with sending actual HTML in JSON but we can't send a sane subset of HTML in XML?
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  324. dwd Single implementation probably helps.
  325. pep. Because it's better to mix input and wire format, and users do it anyway
  326. Seve Implementation details should not block standards
  327. Zash Bring back XHTML-IM!
  328. pep. Bring back XHTML-IM!
  329. Zash Ropen skalla, XHTML-IM åt alla!
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  342. flow Bring back XHTML-IM!
  343. Ge0rG Bring back GC1.0!
  344. Zash U wut m8?
  345. jonas’ Bring back XHTML-IM!
  346. pep. kicks Ge0rG
  347. jonas’ how about we put this on the next all-member meeting agenda?
  348. jonas’ yes, all-member meetings are a thing ;)
  349. pep. jonas’, or just council
  350. jonas’ pep., I can predict the answer
  351. pep. wait for next council?
  352. jonas’ it has to do with XEP-0001 not having a transition from state_of(xep_number("XHTML-IM")) -> {Experimental,Draft,Final}
  353. pep. Yeah I was wondering about that
  354. jonas’ so it’d defer to Board
  355. jonas’ since Board owns XEP-0001
  356. pep. That's a more generic question then
  357. pep. Not just 0071
  358. Ge0rG then Board may or may not define such a state transition and defer back to Council
  359. jonas’ pep., although somebody floated the idea of re-defining XHTML-IM from scratch anyways
  360. jonas’ which I support, actually
  361. pep. I could get along with that I guess
  362. jonas’ with more clearly-defined use-case profiles
  363. jonas’ and without @style
  364. Ge0rG Yes.
  365. dwd If someone can show that HTML within messages has a solution, I'm all for it. But last time we were here, it seemed that every implementation had suffered serious security problems.
  366. pep. Should we call it xhtml-im2
  367. pep. This time it's for real
  368. dwd FWIW, if there were some solution that meant we should shift around PWAs in messages that'd be awesome.
  369. Ge0rG dwd: modern web applications can be made secure with a global switch instead of having to sanitize every individual string, AFAICT
  370. jonas’ dwd, I’ve been back and forth on this, and I think some standards simply require a basic level of intelligence, and if you cannot read Security Considerations, you maybe should not implement standards. or anything.
  371. Zash dwd, my observation is that any alternative will be equally terrible.
  372. jonas’ dwd, PWA?
  373. dwd jonas’, A single-page web app.
  374. dwd jonas’, I mean, if we could safely ship aorund CSS and Javascript, that'd be amazingly amaing.
  375. Zash Not Progressive Web App?
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  378. jonas’ dwd, would it be?
  379. jonas’ dwd, I think that sounds terrible ;)
  380. Ge0rG I thought those are SPAs
  381. jonas’ but I hate the current web, so...
  382. dwd jonas’, Sure. Apps in messages, what's not to like?
  383. jonas’ dwd, everything?
  384. Zash dwd, I hate everything about that
  385. MattJ waqas created a sanitizer for xhtml-im, it works... what else is there to debate?
  386. jonas’ MattJ, does it sanitize @style?
  387. Zash `tag.attr.style = nil`
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  389. Ge0rG MattJ: is it written in JavaScript that can be bundled within an XHTML-IM message?
  390. Zash A Message Web App that sanitizes itself?
  391. dwd Zash, It'd sanitize the messages it sent to other people. I detect a flaw here.
  392. MattJ jonas’, it does
  393. Ge0rG dwd: you encountered sarcasm.
  394. MattJ Can't we just define a flag that clients need to send if their xhtml-im payload is malicious?
  395. MattJ Lighter than including a full sanitizer with every message
  396. pep. that ^
  397. MattJ Oh wait, XEP-0076
  398. pep. woo, we already have all the tools
  399. Ge0rG MattJ: but it's using an insecure xmlns :(
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  401. dwd MattJ, Needs to be updated in line with XEP-0419.
  402. Seve Nice, solutions right away
  403. pep. Ge0rG, btw, you should push for 419 to go draft, there's already an implementation!!
  404. Ge0rG pep.: which one?
  405. pep. poezio's rot13 and b64 plugins
  406. Ge0rG pep.: but 419 is for XEPs, not for .py's
  407. pep. :(
  408. dwd pep., Is it doing whole stanza encryption (example 1)?
  409. pep. dwd, no but it should indeed
  410. Ge0rG dwd: I still think full-stanza-encryption would've been much funnier with rot13.
  411. dwd pep., Sorry, not Example 1, Example 2. I ask because most implementations seem to be mistakenly doing Example 3.
  412. pep. right
  413. dwd Ge0rG, Really? I rather enjoyed the deadpan comparison between the examples.
  414. Ge0rG dwd: must be an instance of British Humour, then
  415. dwd I note that XEP-0419 is the latest e2e encryption method in XMPP, too.
  416. Ge0rG latest and greatest.
  417. Ge0rG I wonder if people will appreciate if I announce that yaxim has had it from day 0.
  418. Ge0rG now that I think of it, yaxim implements it for ten years already.
  419. Ge0rG I just didn't have the feature namespace.
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  421. moparisthebest Seve: so can we just have a xep that says "execute this binary code as x86 instructions, but just the safe parts" ? If implementation details shouldn't block standards that is >:)
  422. larma moparisthebest, I think the cool guys use webassembly for this nowadays
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  427. Seve moparisthebest, I just thing we should go as fast as the smartest in class, not the dumbest.
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  429. Seve moparisthebest, I just think we should go as fast as the smartest in class, not the dumbest.
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  431. moparisthebest Sure, we can all use one client and server and not even bother writing standards
  432. moparisthebest That is easiest and fastest
  433. jonas’ moparisthebest, that’s not the same thing
  434. jonas’ and you’re being needlessly hyperbolic
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  437. Ge0rG is it possible to add a line break inside a <td> in XEPs?
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  439. Ge0rG jonas’: I've got https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/841 but I'm most probably not ready yet and I would like to have one history/revision block for all that's different from CS-2019
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  441. Zash Ge0rG: That description seems a bit redundant, don't you think?
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  443. Ge0rG Zash: I didn't want to leave it empty
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  447. moparisthebest Seve, jonas’ , yea sorry, mainly just pointing out that while I agree in principle that xeps shouldn't depend on implementations, if in practice 100% of implementations have security problems, that's probably a root issue that needs to be solved/defined/something by the xep
  448. moparisthebest other people have worded that way better in the past so just ignore me :)
  449. Ge0rG better specs help.
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  453. moparisthebest I think it's possible to have a "secure" spec that, in practice, is impossible to implement securely, which I'd then argue is a bad spec
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  456. Ge0rG moparisthebest: which XHTML-IM is a prime example of
  457. Zash Is it impossible?
  458. jonas’ I think waqas proved the opposite.
  459. Zash Isn't it just that it's too convenient to do the wrong thing
  460. jonas’ and once you drop @style, I’d say it’s very trivially possible to implement securely
  461. jonas’ what Zash says
  462. Zash Which 393 for example doesn't help with
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  465. moparisthebest are you going to write your own HTML/CSS engine, or fork chrome/firefox's and try to disable javascript but still keep up on other security issues, or ?
  466. Zash "Oh this looks like Markdown, I'll just take this markdown library and forgot to disable HTML pass trough"
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  468. moparisthebest yes, in theory those things are possible, in practice, no one is going to do them
  469. Zash No one is going to do what?
  470. jonas’ moparisthebest, bugs in the rendering engine are not in scope for XMPP software, unless XMPP software writes their own engine.
  471. jonas’ why would you fork a rendering engine for this?
  472. jonas’ why would you write your own?
  473. jonas’ both don’t make sense
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  475. Ge0rG Just bundle an old version of Electron with your chat app
  476. jonas’ both Qt and Gtk support a subset of HTML in any widget (which surprisingly is a superset of what XHTML-IM), so they’re covered. If you’re using a web browser (natievly or via widget) to render/execute your app, you have a rendering engine right there.
  477. jonas’ you just need to do the fing sanitisation, which is fing trivial if we omit @style for a second
  478. Zash jonas’, and @on*
  479. jonas’ just have a whitelist of elements, and everything which isn’t that is replaced by its children.
  480. jonas’ Zash, those are forbidden anyways
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  482. jonas’ in XHTML-IM
  483. Zash whitelist elements and attributes (@style excluded)
  484. jonas’ s/elements/elements and attributes/
  485. jonas’ yes
  486. jonas’ it’s not hard in any way
  487. jonas’ it’s written in the security considerations (more clearly than it was back then, admittedly)
  488. jonas’ if you can’t read security considerations, maybe you shouldn’t be implement standards
  489. jonas’ if you can’t comprehend the security considerations of a specific standard, get help and get the standard clarified
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  491. jonas’ Ge0rG, any reason you make that a PR?
  492. jonas’ Ge0rG, mark it WIP in the title at least
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  495. Zash jonas’, you don't happen to have a nice short rationale for why @style needs to gtfo?
  496. jonas’ Zash, requires an extra parser
  497. jonas’ aside from that, allows stuff which probably only works on your machine
  498. jonas’ (colors and things)
  499. moparisthebest jonas’, that's the theory, in practice, a developer reads a much simpler spec like 393, writes a few regexes, gives up and just passes it to a markdown processor
  500. moparisthebest (this just happend earlier today, hence my question)
  501. jonas’ moparisthebest, oh, so exactly the thing happened everyone said it would?
  502. Zash It also almost happened in Converse.js
  503. moparisthebest yes and also we brought up all this as soon as he suggested the markdown processor, so it hasn't *actually* happened yet, but it would have
  504. jonas’ moparisthebest, can’t blame them, XEP-0393 doesn’t mention that as a problem
  505. moparisthebest I was trying to find links about why this was a terrible idea
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  507. larma so how about we all just implement 394?
  508. Ge0rG jonas’: I made it a PR because I wanted to discuss the content changes in Council tomorrow
  509. jonas’ Ge0rG, you can do that in your own fork instead
  510. jonas’ larma, I’d like to burn XEP-0394
  511. Ge0rG jonas’: good point
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  514. larma jonas’, why? IMO it's superior to 393, it just has the flaw that it doesn't work well with legacy fallbacks (because you can't hide any chars that are only for fallback)
  515. jonas’ larma, but it’s not superior to XEP-0071
  516. jonas’ (or a slightly saner redefinition of XEP-0071)
  517. larma Well, it only has a subset of the features, but also is less likely to be accidentally use a HTML rendering engine
  518. jonas’ I’m pretty sure it’s also harder to implement, and will be fun especially in memory-unsafe languages with all that string slicing involved.
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  522. larma If I'd want to do it right, as a client developer I would probably convert all 3 versions into some data structure that is approximately 394
  523. larma Then I can convert that into any format required for my rendering engine
  524. jonas’ except that you’d normally mix the text with that data structure
  525. jonas’ not like '394 does
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  527. moparisthebest so if I'm understanding this correctly, there is a scale of difficulty-to-implement vs security-of-implementation, ranging from so hard to implement no one will bother, making it secure, all the way to so easy to implement wrongly everyone implements it but it's totally insecure
  528. moparisthebest something like that
  529. larma jonas’, do you? HTML does, but other might not. It's actually a bad idea because it creates the requirement of escaping the actual text to ensure it's not considered markup
  530. jonas’ larma, only if your data structure is a string
  531. moparisthebest 394 makes you write your own parser and rendering engine, no one does it, xhtml-im is easiest to implement by just slapping it into a DOM, everyone does it, is insecure
  532. jonas’ which I’d consider a terrible idea to start with :)
  533. jonas’ moparisthebest, nobody forces you to write a rendering engine for '394
  534. jonas’ moparisthebest, you can convert '394 to Qt text styles, to Gtk whatevers, and to HTML
  535. jonas’ that’s not the sisue
  536. jonas’ that’s not the issue
  537. moparisthebest but you have to write your own parser, and perhaps harder, "reverse parser"
  538. jonas’ it’s just a painful thing to do
  539. jonas’ yeah
  540. moparisthebest how do you get from input format to 394
  541. jonas’ moparisthebest, if you’re using Qt or Gtk, you can probably more or less directly convert the respective datastructures to '394
  542. jonas’ (the QTextDocument stuff for example)
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  544. jonas’ from HTML, it’s a bit trickier, but also possible.
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  548. larma - 71 is not directly compatible with many non-complex renderers. Input needs to be sanitized before being used in complex renderers. - 393 is not directly compatible with any markdown parser known to me, even though some might choose to use a incompatible markdown parser to implement it. If a markdown parser is used to generate HTML, same issue as with 71 might come up. - 394 can be sanitized rather easily (check there is no overlap) and then can be used securely and without tons of efforts in most environment including HTML renderers
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  551. larma I think implementing 394 securely in a browser might actually be easier than implementing 71 securely in a browser, where browsers should be *the* example of allowing easy implementation of 71...
  552. jonas’ larma, '71 is directly compatible with GTK and Qt, without the need for sanitisation (if you ignore @style).
  553. jonas’ or do you consider those "complex"?
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  555. jonas’ otherwise, which other non-complex renderers are there?
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  557. larma jonas’, it's not. Pango makup used by GTK only supports very few tags and actually uses CSS-like style for most stuff
  558. larma https://developer.gnome.org/pygtk/stable/pango-markup-language.html
  559. larma Not sure about Qt
  560. jonas’ ugh, it’s still at <i/>
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  562. larma It also doesn't do blockquote or body or img or any of the enumerations (it doesn't support such at all, as it's a text markup only thing). The "correct" way to use it is <span>s
  563. jonas’ pity
  564. jonas’ not great for accessibility either
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  566. larma how is it related to accessibility?
  567. jonas’ larma, <em/> for example to mark up emphasis
  568. jonas’ enumerations and stuff, blockquotes
  569. jonas’ all that’s relevant to screenreaders
  570. larma I don't think GTK wants you to provide screenreader annotations through display/styling markup
  571. jonas’ how else does it work with Gtk then?
  572. jonas’ seems odd to me to have that redundant
  573. larma Well Pango is a text rendering engine, it does only that single job of using font data and input text to generate an image. You also use it when drawing text on images, so it makes little sense to have accessibility markup at that point
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  576. jonas’ yeah, I was talking about Gtk for a reason and am looking at GtkTextBuffer instead
  577. jonas’ (and GtkTextView)
  578. jonas’ using plain pango to render text is bound to be a PITA
  579. jonas’ BTGNT
  580. larma Dino uses GtkLabel which only supports pango markup for all message rendering 😉
  581. jonas’ that won’t be enough for stuff like blockquote anyways
  582. jonas’ I’m also not sure how you’d mark up a GtkLabel itself for screenreaders to understand what’s going on
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  585. larma I think you do all this stuff with ATK, but haven't tried yet
  586. larma Also doing screen readers right for IM is probably not easy and won't work out of the box no matter which toolkit...
  587. jonas’ very true
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  650. moparisthebest nice to see there are 0 open source XMPP mac apps but a ton of matrix/telegram/other ones :'( https://github.com/serhii-londar/open-source-mac-os-apps#chat
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  653. pep. Most of these are electron apps no?
  654. pep. Does padé not work there?
  655. moparisthebest no idea, was just pointing out that someone seeing this list doesn't even see xmpp listed at all
  656. moparisthebest I know Monal for instance should be there, probably gajim ? what about dino? surely there are a TON of open source XMPP apps that run on MacOS
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  658. pep. Go PR! :)
  659. pep. Is there a list of list page on the wiki or sth?
  660. pep. That needs to be updated every so often
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  662. moparisthebest probably most of the command line clients work on mac too right?
  663. moparisthebest I'll friggin put in a PR adding 50 XMPP clients that run on mac if I can find them :D
  664. Zash https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/clients.json
  665. Zash "Awesome" here means "List of stuff" these days?
  666. Ge0rG Monal is probably the only one that qualifies as a Mac app
  667. moparisthebest yea it's a thing now, no idea where it started
  668. Zash Adium?
  669. Zash It's been a thing for quite a while
  670. pep. It's not maintained anymore is it
  671. Ge0rG pep.: ten years ago, like everything in xmpp
  672. pep. right
  673. moparisthebest maybe it's just because we aren't on these awesome lists
  674. Zash Yet another hierarchical oooooooooosomething
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  677. Zash moparisthebest, basically ^C^V https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html ?
  678. Zash | grep macos
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  693. DebXWoody I think I was able to install psi or psi+
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  697. moparisthebest curl https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xmpp.org/master/data/clients.json | jq '.[] | select(.platforms | index("macOS")) | "[" + .name + "]" + "(" + .url + ")"' | sort -u | tr -d '"'
  698. moparisthebest got to learn some jq today, I'll put in the PR later... gotta figure out what language they are each written in manually, guess that's important for mac users somehow?
  699. Zash Myeah, I'm not sure what's up with that.
  700. Zash Maybe it's aimed at developers?
  701. moparisthebest good news is we have 24 different macOS clients though
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  704. lskdjf moparisthebest, I hope you don't want to try and add all of those clients to that "awsome" repo, though. Abandoned clients probably don't shed a good light on XMPP. Maybe pick the most reasonable 2/3 instead.
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  717. Ge0rG Maybe pick the only one that's a Mac app.
  718. Zash How's the Tigase one, Beagle?
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  724. moparisthebest lskdjf: why not? It has telegram clients marked abandoned too
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  727. lskdjf moparisthebest, I already gave my reasoning: because bothering people with bad clients sheds a bad light on xmpp. Something is not good just because telegram people do it.
  728. moparisthebest I don't have a Mac and no way to pick the best couple
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  730. lskdjf then maybe you are either not the best person to do the PR or need more information first 🤷️
  731. moparisthebest Well no one else seems interested in doing it
  732. moparisthebest Besides that list is like "all open source Mac software" not just good ones
  733. Zash moparisthebest: Make an "Awesome XMPP clients" list and get it into the Awesome hierarchical directory that's totally not like early Yahoo! at all.
  734. Zash There was some XMPP stuff under "ChatOps" but I didn't look further
  735. moparisthebest I was thinking about making an awesome awesome list of all the awesome lists
  736. Zash That exists already
  737. lskdjf too late, that already exists https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome
  738. moparisthebest Damnit, just like all my good ideas
  739. pep. We're not listed in Decentralized!!1 Mastodon is!
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  741. lskdjf pep., no the awsome list about mastodon is :p we first need an "awsome xmpp" list 🙂
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  744. Zash pep.: There are only 2 XMPP services¹ ¹ according to https://the-federation.info/
  745. Zash pep.: There are only 3 XMPP services¹ ¹ according to https://the-federation.info/
  746. pep. Yeah.. I know that one..
  747. Zash Wanna help with my WIP mod_nodeinfo2.lua?
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  750. pep. I want to help with lots of things. Now how do I prioritize all that
  751. Zash "Awesome TODO"
  752. pep. :D
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  755. Link Mauve “15:38:27 flow> Link Mauve, +1, is the list public somewhere? Maybe even in the wiki?”, only on a WIP branch from years ago, which will need a namespace bump: https://github.com/linkmauve/xeps/tree/xep-0234
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