XSF Discussion - 2019-10-10

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  249. flow

    Ge0rG, do we really want to add a deferred xep with a likely namespace bump in the future to the compliance suites?

  250. Ge0rG

    flow: which one?

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  356. ralphm bangs gavel

  357. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  358. ralphm

    Who do we have?

  359. nyco


  360. MattJ


  361. ralphm

    Guus, Seve?

  362. Guus


  363. ralphm


  364. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  365. ralphm

    Would be good to have one again, since we have had no minutes for a few meetings now.

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  367. nyco

    I can't today, sorry...

  368. nyco

    I'd love to automate that minutes process like we could each one of us have two windows open: 1. this chat 2. a real-time collaborative text editor... then we would each and all be responsible

  369. ralphm

    Would be happy to try.

  370. nyco

    I've used that way of doing in many places: awesome for the agenda huge for misunderstanding reduction excellent for winning some time (no one has to review/rewrite/refaco notes afterwards)

  371. MattJ

    Sorry, I tend to have meetings back-to-back after this one at the moment

  372. ralphm


  373. Guus

    WE have the logs.

  374. ralphm

    Logs are insufficient, of course.

  375. nyco

    long and hard to read

  376. Guus

    no-one apparently finds minutes worth the trouble

  377. Guus

    so logs are what we have.

  378. nyco

    that's too much work with collab text editing, the load is balanced by the number of participants

  379. ralphm

    I don't think that's an acceptable stance towards our membership, to be honest.

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  382. nyco

    agree, we should deliver better than the logs

  383. Guus

    then memberhip should step up. We can stop doing these meetings if you feel strong about it.

  384. ralphm

    Ideally, we'd have an appointed scribe for all our meetings, but I'm ok with trying out nyco's suggestion for now.

  385. ralphm

    I'm moving on in the meanwhile.

  386. Seve

    Here, sorry

  387. nyco

    and I'd timebox meetings...

  388. nyco

    ok, let's try today?

  389. ralphm

    nyco: I try to keep them within 30 min.

  390. ralphm

    2. Badge Design

  391. nyco


  392. ralphm

    I've contacted Robert Martinez on this, hope he responds before next meeting.

  393. Guus


  394. ralphm

    3. Review of Roadmap Page

  395. ralphm

    I have looked at this really old page again.

  396. ralphm

    Oddly enough, some of the items are still a bit current.

  397. nyco

    please help me on: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/2019-10-10-XSF-board-o5Yl05hJfT?lang=fr

  398. ralphm

    E.g. the part on Jabber Identifiers (PRECIS) came up again a few weeks ago

  399. ralphm

    From the few responses on the XMPPWG mailinglist over at IETF, it seems there's not really a solution for this yet.

  400. ralphm

    My own topics that I think could be on a roadmap page are:

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  403. ralphm

    1) Work on the things I recently blogged about regarding references, reactions, etc, and how that could be handled with MAM

  404. ralphm

    2) Calling in the new(ish) reality of multiple devices that aren't always connected, but still would want to receive calls.

  405. Guus

    Ralph, instead of defining a roadmap (that's an XSF roadmap, not a board roadmap), we might want to discuss topic candidates on the member list?

  406. ralphm

    3) e2ee. I think we need to make clear here what things are covered (plain body, full stanza) and which are not (e.g. meta data).

  407. Ge0rG

    ralphm: that sounds like a Council roadmap actually ;)

  408. ralphm

    Ge0rG: it does, maybe, I am listing what I think could be on it, I'm sure the Council has opinions, and I've also sent a message to Dave on this earlier today.

  409. Ge0rG

    ralphm: XEP-0423 comes with a "Future Development" section that's looking for content, deadline is next Wednesday for an LC request, November 5th for Draft

  410. Seve

    Are we discussing the content of the roadmap, or if we want to have a roadmap?

  411. ralphm

    Guus: I'm just following the agenda, the items above haven't really been handled for weeks, and I did some work on it

  412. ralphm

    Guus: I don't intend to make a full discussion on it today, just share what I have so far

  413. ralphm

    Seve: probably both

  414. Ge0rG

    ralphm: if you are motivated, please contribute in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/compare/master...ge0rg:cs2020?expand=1 / https://github.com/ge0rg/xeps/tree/cs2020

  415. Seve

    I see

  416. ralphm

    Ge0rG: thanks

  417. Ge0rG

    I think the XSF or Board roadmap should be different from the XMPP protocol roadmap, though

  418. Ge0rG

    XSF Roadmap should include marketing, org topics, sprint planning etc.

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  421. Guus

    I think it can include anything that we feel significantly benefits the XSF or XMPP.

  422. ralphm


  423. Guus

    if an important goal is to have a specific XEP published, I don't mind it being on that roadmap.

  424. Ge0rG

    also compliance badges.

  425. ralphm

    I'm not interested in individual specs per se, but more like: we should have a solution for things like references (e.g.)

  426. nyco

    and our emoji character

  427. ralphm

    and then see how we can achieve that

  428. pep.

    I agree with Ge0rG that xsf roadmap is different from protocol roadmap

  429. Ge0rG

    Guus: I'm not trying to protect my turf here, but I think that we get less done by mixing up the different bodies of the XSF

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  431. nyco

    yes, protocol != xsf

  432. ralphm

    pep.: well, so far it hasn't. We could change that, of course, but I'm not sure, really.

  433. nyco

    so everything related to SCAM, commTeam, iTeam included

  434. Guus

    Ge0rG putting something on a roadmap does not imply that other bodies are suddenly working on something.

  435. Ge0rG

    I agree that we should have a high-level protocol strategy defined by Board + Council, though

  436. Guus

    let's come to some kind of actionable conclusion here

  437. Ge0rG

    yes please

  438. nyco

    in relation with the IETF, and probably other standards bodies

  439. MattJ

    I definitely believe the Board should be able to set high-level goals that can guide Council

  440. ralphm

    We are still primarily a standards organisation, and of course those things mentioned by nyco need to be addressed, and could /also/ be on it.

  441. MattJ

    and that has happened in the past regularly

  442. ralphm


  443. dwd

    I'd note in passing that Council has zero power, as defined in our documents, so actuate any of these roadmap initiatives.

  444. ralphm

    Guus: well, the action I had was reviewing it, and I did

  445. Guus

    We've danced around 'priorities' and 'roadmap' often. I'm not against someone simply providing a PR with a suggested roadmap update, and for everyone to provide feedback on that.

  446. MattJ

    But e.g. the goal would be "End-to-end encryption", it's Council's reponsibility to decide whether that's OMEMO that gets put into the Compliance Suite

  447. ralphm

    dwd: indeed, so that's another reason it is also a Board topic

  448. MattJ


  449. nyco

    for how long have we not done "official" interop testing? that could help OMEMO implementations, btw

  450. ralphm

    I personally think it would be good to stimulate development in certain areas. Maybe with small scale topic-specific get-to-gathers, or something, to get things moving.

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  452. Ge0rG

    Board could assign some resources to do official interop testing. Also to making our wiki mobile-ready finally.

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  454. pep.

    ralphm: "sprints"?

  455. ralphm

    (I meant /protocol/ development, really, but having implementations is good too of course)

  456. nyco

    sprints are awesome so far, we could use more focus and some sort of direction, indeed

  457. Guus

    5 minutes left.

  458. ralphm

    Good to see various topics raised here. I'll take that make and see if I can create a comprehensive list from it.

  459. ralphm


  460. Ge0rG

    ralphm: ๐Ÿ‘

  461. nyco

    the list can be collected here, though: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/2019-10-10-XSF-board-o5Yl05hJfT?lang=en

  462. Guus


  463. ralphm

    4. Board & Council elections

  464. ralphm

    So we're having them soonish, and we need (more) candidates.

  465. Seve

    To have a roadmap, we need to have some sort of commitment for it. I think having a global XSF roadmap is good, I would first think about what do we want to fit in the roadmap and check after if we need to split it into two (XSF/protocol) or not

  466. ralphm

    I personally think it would be great to have people on Board who are not directly involved with protocol or software development.

  467. Guus

    Sign up here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2019

  468. nyco


  469. ralphm

    I do not yet have anyone in mind.

  470. nyco

    businessy people, yes or marketingy people

  471. nyco

    I second that opening

  472. ralphm

    Well, we've always been open in that regard, just recently haven't seen candidates in that regard.

  473. Ge0rG

    ralphm: isn't it better to look for people who are competent at PM, rather than for people who are incompetent at XMPP? ;)

  474. nyco


  475. Ge0rG

    project management

  476. dwd

    Project Management.

  477. nyco


  478. nyco

    could have been Product Management as well

  479. ralphm

    Ge0rG: oh, I meant 'not necessarily involved'.

  480. ralphm

    But having a broader scope is always interesting.

  481. nyco

    people who are incompetent at XMPP are very, very, like very valuable to us!

  482. nyco

    we could use those profiles to greatly simplify our "message"

  483. Ge0rG

    nyco: but that shouldn't be a requirement for runnung for Board

  484. MattJ

    At some level I find this quite amusing

  485. nyco


  486. ralphm

    So, I'd like to ask anyone currently on Board or on the floor, to think about this, and maybe provide suggestion to me.

  487. Ge0rG

    ralphm: suggestion of potential board candidates?

  488. Guus


  489. MattJ

    I shall definitely give it some thought

  490. Seve

    ralphm, are you thinking about some specific skills?

  491. ralphm

    Ge0rG: we're not limiting applications in any way. There's still an election of course, and we already have candidates that have run before.

  492. ralphm

    Ge0rG: yes

  493. nyco

    new blood is cool as well

  494. ralphm

    Seve: not really

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  496. ralphm

    5. AOB

  497. Ge0rG

    as I said, "project management" is a good skill to have.

  498. ralphm


  499. Guus

    We need more focus in these meetings

  500. Ge0rG

    maybe also "has an hour or two per week for Board matters"

  501. nyco

    not forcefilly PM

  502. Guus

    and/or have more than 30 minutes

  503. ralphm

    Guus: we're already at AOB?

  504. Guus

    we're not getting our item list done

  505. nyco

    or really commit and engage

  506. Guus

    I'm raising that as an AOB item ๐Ÿ™‚

  507. ralphm

    And if we didn't spend valuable time at the 'minute taker' item, then we'd have more time to discuss things.

  508. ralphm


  509. nyco

    I'll propose a solution on the "minute taker" problem for next week

  510. Guus

    we've had a couple of trello cards on there for weeks, without addressing them.

  511. ralphm

    Guus: and we addressed them today, yay.

  512. nyco

    agree, we don't consume cards fast enough

  513. ralphm

    Many of the other items are awaiting feedback

  514. Seve

    Maybe we can be more async?

  515. ralphm

    But point taken.

  516. ralphm

    Sure, we can still do stuff on the board list. particularly around financials

  517. Guus

    I think we should strive to discuss less details in meetings - unsure how that works out in practice though.

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  519. nyco

    async would be added capacity, indeed but needs more organisation, commitment, engagement

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  521. nyco

    details arise in meetings, so let's set them free to expand

  522. ralphm

    Ok, so let's all review the topics on the trello board and see how we can cross them off

  523. Guus

    I disagree. I think we should use meetings to plan for discussion/processing of details, not to handle them.

  524. ralphm

    I'm sorry, but didn't we do just that?

  525. Guus

    as a for example: we discussed items to be put on a roadmap, instead of 'how do we update the roadmap'

  526. nyco

    Seve is right about async work, or out-of-meeting progress

  527. Guus

    there's a lot of things that we could do more abstract in these meetings, if we plan the legwork outside of these meetings.

  528. Seve

    My phabricator comment was about this exactly. Trying to find a way we improve as a team. I do feel we need more time to discuss (not in meetings but in general at least)

  529. Guus

    Like nyco said, that takes additional work though

  530. ralphm

    How to update the roadmap doesn't need a discussion, what's on it does and I'm glad we discussed it.

  531. nyco

    once again I agree with Seve that ideation happens during meetings, in real-time sync

  532. ralphm


  533. MattJ

    However it may make sense to have separate meetings for deeper discussions around various topics

  534. nyco

    ah, good idea

  535. MattJ

    30 minutes is often not enough to cover one topic in detail

  536. MattJ

    and that happens quite often, it seems

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  539. MattJ

    We spend >90% of the meeting time discussing one thing

  540. ralphm

    MattJ: ok, we can maybe plan ahead to extend a next meeting for a specific topic

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  542. ralphm

    I usually reserve a 1 hour slot for this meeting

  543. MattJ

    As mentioned earlier I don't have room in my schedule to expand this meeting in its current timeslot, but sure, I agree in principle

  544. ralphm

    but try to keep it within 30min, to cater for the possibility a topic needs more time

  545. MattJ

    I did also, and will endeavour to return to that, but not for at least the next few weeks

  546. ralphm


  547. ralphm

    Thanks Guus for raising this

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  549. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  550. ralphm


  551. Guus

    I can not make it next week.

  552. Guus

    but don't let thta stop you

  553. ralphm

    Oh, right it is vacation for me, too.

  554. nyco


  555. ralphm

    So I might not make it either

  556. ralphm

    Maybe skip one?

  557. nyco


  558. Guus

    Depends on the remaining three ๐Ÿ™‚

  559. Guus

    I"ll definately not make it.

  560. ralphm

    +2W then

  561. nyco

    please review before you go: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/2019-10-10-XSF-board-o5Yl05hJfT?lang=en

  562. Seve

    I should be available next week if nothing happens, but it all depends on what do we need to discuss, I guess

  563. ralphm

    Let's try to indeed do some homework before the next meeting.

  564. ralphm

    And review the pad by nyco

  565. Seve

    Sounds good!

  566. ralphm

    7. Close

  567. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  568. ralphm bangs gavel

  569. Seve

    Good meeting, thank you and have some nice vacation :)

  570. ralphm

    Seve: ๐Ÿ‘Š

  571. Guus


  572. nyco

    thx all, bye

  573. nyco

    oh and New Vector (Matrix) has raised 8.5M

  574. ralphm

    Yes, that's great news for them.

  575. nyco

    yep, they've proven consistency, they're rewarded

  576. david has left

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  578. Ge0rG

    We should found a start-up company called "New Zimpy" to acquire funding for pushing forward our implementations.

  579. zach has left

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  586. flow

    Ge0rG, jingle file transfer

  587. zach has left

  588. Daniel

    we are going to bump jingle ft?

  589. zach has joined

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  592. Ge0rG

    flow: so you are saying it is a bad idea to implement Jingle-FT?

  593. lorddavidiii has left

  594. Ge0rG

    for CS-2020, I don't care much about the state of the XEP, but rather about what implementors need to consider

  595. lorddavidiii has joined

  596. Daniel

    It depends on what message you want to convey

  597. Daniel

    Note also that if you 'require' jingle ft 3 or 4 clients will have a chance at making that

  598. Daniel

    If you require both http upload and jingle I think you are down to 2-3

  599. Daniel

    Not that this should stop you

  600. Daniel

    But be aware of that

  601. Ge0rG

    Daniel: that's an interesting point. Should we have "optional" features?

  602. Daniel

    And it's not like other clients will implement jingle over night

  603. Daniel

    Optional features defeat the purpose

  604. Daniel

    There are already profiles

  605. Ge0rG

    Daniel: you mean the compliance suite Levels, or something different?

  606. Ge0rG

    Do we need a new one? "Core", "Advanced" and "Super Plus"?

  607. Daniel

    that would make more sense than having optional features

  608. Daniel

    (not that i like having super plus; but it still makes more sense than optional features)

  609. Ge0rG

    Daniel: I agree on that

  610. pep.

    You can include a "Gajim level" somewhere in there

  611. pep.

    (just teasing :p)

  612. Daniel

    i mean if you make jingle part of it i think Gajim and Conversations will be the only clients to make advanced im

  613. Ge0rG

    I don't want to overengineer that CS, so I'd rather force some clients to fall from Advanced to Core right now.

  614. Daniel

    (they might already?)

  615. Ge0rG

    I have no idea.

  616. Daniel

    poezio is probably still in the race

  617. Daniel

    but you lose it if you include jingle

  618. pep.

    I'm not worried about poezio dropping from the race

  619. Ge0rG

    with libcaca avatars?

  620. pep.

    Ge0rG, tct!

  621. Ge0rG

    pep.: I can't bother to remember the implementation details

  622. Daniel

    yes it's not a race

  623. Daniel

    but CS2020 should set some realistic goals maybe?

  624. pep.

    Ge0rG, https://mpv.io/manual/master/#video-output-drivers-tct

  625. Ge0rG

    is it realistic to have a client that can't send files if you are on j.c.d?

  626. Ge0rG

    I'd add XEP-0379 and Bookmarks2 if I wasn't being realistic.

  627. Daniel

    you have that with http upload

  628. zach has left

  629. pep.


  630. Ge0rG

    Daniel: you don't have that on j.c.d

  631. zach has joined

  632. Ge0rG


  633. Daniel

    fair enough. i ignored the part of your sentence that i was unable to parse

  634. pep.

    fwiw, poezio is already not a core client, we don't do direct invites, so it's already out of the race

  635. Daniel

    if you wanted to that would be easier to add than jingle ft

  636. pep.

    It certainly makes sense to have it in some use-cases, but it doesn't to get back into the race :)

  637. pep.

    (read: I wouldn't mind implementing it, but I need a proper use-case. Also, we have more urgent/important things to fix in poezio.. (and that's not OMEMO))

  638. Ge0rG

    after all, CS-2020 is not about a client pissing contest.

  639. pep.

    (the OMEMO bit isn't directed at you Daniel)

  640. Ge0rG

    pep.: fix MAM finally.

  641. pep.


  642. Ge0rG

    pep.: fix MAM finally, _please_.

  643. pep.


  644. Ge0rG


  645. Daniel

    i've observed muc implementations in the wild that donโ€™t send mediated invites if the person is already a member

  646. Daniel

    meaning re-invite doesnโ€™t work

  647. pep.


  648. Daniel

    that's when Conversations falls back to direct invite

  649. Daniel

    i didnโ€™t want to hunt down the bug; just switched over

  650. Ge0rG

    that's evil

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  653. Ge0rG

    Daniel: those are the little gems of tribal knowledge that should be written down somewhere on our wiki

  654. Ge0rG

    and linked from the XEP

  655. pep.

    Right, Category:Errata or sth.

  656. pep.

    Or remarks

  657. mukt2 has joined

  658. Ge0rG

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages isn't even a category

  659. Ge0rG

    oh, it's in https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat

  660. pep.

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks talking about this

  661. Ge0rG

    good that the wiki search doesn't find that if you search for "0045"

  662. pep.

    Ge0rG, you had an example of category btw?

  663. pep.

    can't remember

  664. Ge0rG

    also great that it links to "[Standards] Proposed XMPP Extension: Buddycloud Channels" in the archive

  665. Ge0rG

    pep.: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Special:Categories and especially https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Category:Interop

  666. Wojtek has joined

  667. pep.


  668. Daniel

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0363:_HTTP_File_Upload <= that never made it into my inbox

  669. Daniel

    i would have loved to 'fix' that

  670. Daniel

    but now bumping NS for that doesnโ€™t seem worth it

  671. Ge0rG


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  676. Ge0rG

    Daniel: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Mediated_MUC_Invitations

  677. pep.

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0313:_Message_Archive_Management Maybe this could use more context :x

  678. zach has left

  679. pep.

    "Missing "Give the the last N messages starting from the oldest" query" as a title

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  682. Ge0rG

    flow: you authored it... โซ

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  685. pep.

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Category:Spec_Remarks hmm. I'm not sure how useful that was though, considering everything is already on the same page.

  686. emus has left

  687. pep.

    Also apparently there's a XEP category already.

  688. pep.

    Which is exactly that, I guess I'll move that over

  689. Ge0rG

    pep.: we could also move the "XEP and RFC Remarks" page into the category, then people would get redirected to the automatic list, even with it being less nice looking

  690. pep.

    redirected? What magic do you need for that

  691. Ge0rG

    pep.: I did it with https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Easy_XMPP&redirect=no - `#REDIRECT [[:Category:Easy XMPP]]`

  692. Ge0rG

    pep.: IIRC you must be wiki admin to move pages, though

  693. Zash

    Forbidden dark Mediawiki magic?

  694. Ge0rG

    Incantations that will make your fingers fall off.

  695. Ge0rG

    or your ears. or your eyes. depending on which way they go

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  697. Ge0rG

    So whom do I need to bribe to finally make https://github.com/xsf/mediawiki-docker/issues/2 happen?

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  710. flow

    Ge0rG, not all, we need implementations of experimental XEPs, I am just not sure if a XEP mentioned in the compliance suite should have a certain amount of stability, or if it's just a pointer to the "next thing"

  711. zach has left

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  713. flow

    if compliance suites are supposed to point to the current state of the art, which experimental XEPs probably count as, then it shouldn't be included. If they are the map of the xep jungle, pointing out which xeps are (probably) ahead on the road, then you could and should include jingle file-transfer.

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  715. Ge0rG

    flow: there is the "Future Development" section for next things. XEPs in the CS should have some stability, and they should provide functionality needed by users

  716. Ge0rG

    the CS isn't about XEP status politics

  717. flow

    Compliance suites could also be both, but then it should be probably marked which xeps are currently considered stable and which ones are the next big thing

  718. Ge0rG

    Jingle-FT has been there for over a decade, and I don't see any alternative to it

  719. flow

    is there a rendered version of the proposed compliance suites somewhere?

  720. Ge0rG

    flow: XEP stability is orthogonal to what users expect from a client

  721. Ge0rG

    flow: https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0423.html

  722. flow

    sure, but I also have the poor developers in mind

  723. j.r has left

  724. Ge0rG

    poor developers using the wrong MAM namespace? :D

  725. j.r has joined

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  727. Daniel

    > Jingle-FT has been there for over a decade, and I don't see any alternative to it Yet we are only slowly reaching a point where we have compatible implementations that are somewhat reliable in exchanging files

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  741. mathieui

    pep., poezio certainly does direct invites (if you mean 0249 by that)

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  743. lskdjf

    Ge0rG, IMHO User Name Coloring should not be mandated by the compliance suite. If there is a client that does all the cool things but generates avatars similar to github or slack (patterns instead of single colors), that should not keep it from beeing an advanced xmpp client. Or really, if I don't want to color the names/avatars at all. It's a design thing and should be part of client diversity and choice. If you go that way you could as well mandate that clients have to do a conversation list instead of a roster for "consistency".

  744. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: I'm sure that the Conversation list will become a thing in a year or two, and then will be added to CS

  745. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: also nothing prevents your smart pattern avatar generator from applying the same color as other clients do

  746. !XSF_Martin

    I found lskdjf is having a valid point.

  747. Ge0rG

    Is our goal to appease client developers or to make XMPP finally suitable for normal people?

  748. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: you are making a valid point indeed, but I disagree with that. Feel free to bring that up on standards@ and get more people behind you

  749. !XSF_Martin

    I as a partly normal person am happy with my terminal not looking like a rainbow when chatting. ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

  750. lskdjf

    Ge0rG, where does the "mandate the UI" end? when all clients look the same? there are different users and different use cases. Not everyone is happy with the same thing. many people actually like a roster, and they have a valid point. and if there's a client that provides them with a roster, that's good and not less XMPP-compatible.

  751. Ge0rG

    I'm not going to get convinced, but sufficient negative feedback could certainly make me remove it again

  752. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: I'm not saying "get rid of the roster", I'm saying "support an automatic synchronization of your open conversations over all clients"

  753. !XSF_Martin

    I don't really see nickname colors as a usability but more as theming.

  754. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: if the user wants to disable it, well, let them

  755. lskdjf

    > I'm saying "support an automatic synchronization of your open conversations over all clients" As a client you don't need that if you only offer a roster, though

  756. zach has left

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  758. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: well, then you aren't an advanced but just a core client. Live with it

  759. lskdjf

    Ge0rG, why? because some people think my preference in UI isn't the "correct" one?

  760. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: no, because your UI preferences make it harder for users to migrate between xmpp clients

  761. Yagiza has left

  762. lskdjf

    mh I don't agree with your view on what the job of the compliance suite is. but you already said you won't be convinced.

  763. lskdjf

    Ge0rG, another point I have is that I'd like to suggest to only mandate vcard-temp for advanced IM clients.

  764. Ge0rG

    lskdjf: I'm not even sure why it's in core.

  765. lskdjf

    I also wouldn't mind seeing it removed ๐Ÿคท๏ธ

  766. Ge0rG

    I'm not an expert on vCard specs

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  769. pep.

    what's the story behind the NS format (changes) btw? jabber:x:foo, https://jabber.org/protocol/foo, urn:xmpp:foo

  770. Zash

    jabber: is from before people learned how xmlns is supposed to work

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  772. Zash

    urn:xmpp: is after IETF standardization

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  774. pep.

    And the awkward one in the middle?

  775. pep.

    people experimenting?

  776. Zash

    That's acceptable behavior

  777. fippo

    if you don't have a urn for a namespace, you can use a url you control

  778. Zash

    I'm personally a fan of xmpp: URIs as xmlns ๐Ÿ™‚

  779. pep.

    Yeah I also like that :)

  780. Zash

    `xmpp:prosody.im/whatever` eg

  781. fippo

    zash: but you need to stay in control of prosody.im forever. for urn:xmpp the iana is in control and going to be around for longer :-)

  782. Zash

    fippo, same applies to http://jabber.org

  783. pep.

    fippo, as a temporary solution

  784. Zash

    fippo, aren't we (the XSF) in control of urn:xmpp:* tho?

  785. Zash

    urn:uuid: is cool too, but somewhat verbose

  786. pep.

    Ge0rG, I'm kind of duplicating work that was already done on the wiki with that category :/

  787. Chobbes has joined

  788. pep.

    But I'll take the opportunity to unify all of it

  789. mukt2 has joined

  790. pep.

    Who do I need to bribe to become a wiki sysops btw

  791. fippo

    zash: the iana delegated the subnamespace to the xsf registrar

  792. Zash

    fippo, so we're in control. or can they un-delegate it? if so, it's no different than DNS based URIs?

  793. Ge0rG

    pep.: iteam

  794. fippo

    zash: hrm, rfc 8141 doesn't say whether the iana can undelegate. lets pester one of the authors? :-)

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  927. stpeter

    There is no undelegation or redelegation for URN namespaces. URN namespace assignments are permanent because the whole point of URNs is permanence. However, we did not explicitly mention this in RFC 8141.

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