XSF Discussion - 2019-10-15

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  114. Ge0rG Zash: treat them like chat messages?
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  198. aliex@exploit.im aliex@exploit.im
  199. aliex@exploit.im aliex@exploit.im hi
  200. Guus ah, my favorite domain. It ranks high in my spamlist.
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  243. Ge0rG pep., jonas’: please merge https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/841
  244. pep. k
  245. Ge0rG rendered version for quality control: https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0423.html
  246. Ge0rG (it's got a gimmick for you, pep.)
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  248. pep. hmm is there a revision block somewhere?
  249. Ge0rG pep.: unfortunately, the revision block is not suitable for CS purposes.
  250. Ge0rG pep.: feel free to rip off "Changes since 2019" into the rev block though
  251. pep. What does that mean
  252. Ge0rG pep.: you can't have the "Changes since 2019" in a single place of the revision block
  253. Ge0rG because it has a section for each minor version
  254. Ge0rG so pre-Last-Call and post-Last-Call go into separate blocks there
  255. pep. sure
  256. pep. Are we talking about the same thing
  257. Ge0rG pep.: I don't know?
  258. Ge0rG pep.: what you probably wanted to hear instead of my rant is: no, I didn't add a revision block
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  261. pep. And yeah that would probably look like your §1.1, since 0.1 is more or less similar to 412 right?
  262. Ge0rG pep.: yes, 0.1 was an identical copy
  263. Ge0rG plus "future changes", which is noted there, of course
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  265. pep. Ok let's see..
  266. jonas’ pep., so you’re going to take care of that?
  267. jonas’ please let me see the diff before hitting the button
  268. jonas’ Ge0rG, as mentioned, no revision block is not an option
  269. Ge0rG jonas’: I know. This is why I added §1.1
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  271. Ge0rG jonas’: I was just hoping that an Editor would add the rev block so that I don't mess up anything
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  273. pep. jonas’, yeah doing for it now. Ge0rG I have as many chance as you of messing it up :)
  274. pep. going*
  275. Ge0rG pep.: but I don't have that Editor hat, so now I can sleep calmly at night ;)
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  288. Ge0rG hm. Chat Markers were just suggested for addition.
  289. Zash Wasn't that meant to get the overlap with receipts and chat states removed?
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  291. Ge0rG we also wanted to reword chat states as presence.
  292. pep. Ge0rG, so.. what does that mean for editors
  293. Ge0rG pep.: nothing so far.
  294. Zash Can you even do that wih a Final Standard?
  295. Ge0rG pep.: please go on with your work
  296. pep. ok
  297. Ge0rG pep.: I'll put that into the Last Call bucket.
  298. Ge0rG Zash: sure, given a new XEP number
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  322. ralphm FYI, there's been a call for the Decentralized Internet & Privacy devroom at FOSDEM. Discuss over at summit@muc.xmpp.org.
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  333. lovetox whats the deal with the published XEPs by pep?
  334. lovetox the are published but the link leads to the old version
  335. jonas’ lovetox, what isn’t?
  336. jonas’ ah, pep. sent the emails too early
  337. pep. oh
  338. pep. CI
  339. Zash Wait for the foreverbuild!
  340. pep. Ok I'll wait for the CI next time
  341. jonas’ CI isn’t the thing you need to wait for
  342. pep. lovetox, you're too quick for me
  343. jonas’ docker hub is broken, too
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  345. jonas’ throws 500s at me
  346. jonas’ pep., you need to wait for https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppxsf/repository/docker/xmppxsf/xeps/builds to finish
  347. jonas’ the page may not load at the moment, docker cloud/hub seems to be broken
  348. pep. I don't have access to that apparently (I get redirected to the main page)
  349. Zash Mmmmm Cloud
  350. jonas’ pep., that happened to me too, it’s the brokenness right now
  351. jonas’ you should have access
  352. pep. ok
  353. jonas’ pep., maybe send an email in reply to the CS-2020 notification
  354. jonas’ so that people don’t get confused
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  356. lovetox why how long does this build take?
  357. lovetox i mean its 20 minutes already
  358. pep. lo[..]oong
  359. jonas’ lovetox, about 1h
  360. jonas’ lovetox, possibly longer if dokcer cloud is currently broken
  361. jonas’ so a note about that seems sensible to have
  362. pep. Here
  363. Ge0rG Looks like our hoster has gone Serverless, eh?
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  365. Zash It is the modern thing to do, right?
  366. pep. Is there any other good reason to do anything
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  368. Zash Depends, do you support Nihilism over XMPP?
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  372. lskdjf > lskdjf: also I'm curious what your actual problem with 0392 is, besides of it being out-of-scope of the XSF powers. Ge0rG, your question was a day ago, but anyways, now I have the time to answer. It's ok to write down a common way of generating colors, even if maybe not in the standarts track. The specification has it's flaws, but they can be improved, there was a mail on the ML about that. My main problem really is that you want to write 0392 into the compliance suites. Some days ago I complained that I couldn't do slack/github style avatars anymore. You said: "nothing prevents your smart pattern avatar generator from applying the same color as other clients do". But that's wrong, the XEP doesn't allow that. It says: Generate a color, fill a shape with it and render the first character of the name onto it. Thus, if I want to generate an avatar, I'm not allowed to have patterns, I'm not allowed to put two letters onto the avatar. Both are common approaches. If the XEP is in the compliance suites, I have to choose between having a UI that might better fit my application or being an Advanced IM client. You basically hinter potential UI improvements. Also, some environments strongly suggest to use a specific color palette. E.g. GNOME does and Android previously did, too. Or maybe my design department simply evaluated in user studies that this specific green tone fits best into my application. The XEP only allows me to use a specific palette if my device doesn't support otherwise, not if I want/should do so because of other constaints. Thus, I can choose between following the GNOME suggestions and being an advanced XMPP IM client. XMPP is a protocol and the compliance suites should define features. Not a set of user interface rules. We can have things like easy xmpp for that.
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  375. lskdjf s/easy xmpp/modern xmpp
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  377. jonas’ lskdjf, > Generate a color, fill a shape with it and render the first character of the name onto it. Okay, I did not intend this to be a *requirement*
  378. jonas’ It was meant as a non-normative inspiration
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  383. lovetox yeah, i agree, user interface stuff should be strictly separate from XEPs
  384. lovetox only thing you get with putting this stuff into XEPs is, it gets simply ignored
  385. larma jonas’, sorry, but hard to read "auto-generating an avatar SHOULD happen as follows" as an inspiration, inspirations SHOULD use MAY 😉
  386. jonas’ that’s true
  387. lovetox not even a MAY
  388. Zash RFC 2119 language about UI things is weird
  389. lovetox it should be in a different section without any keywords
  390. pep. just "may"
  391. lovetox or not at all in the XEP
  392. pep. (because 8174)
  393. lovetox why does a XEP have to make UI suggestions
  394. jonas’ lovetox, it doesn’t *have* to
  395. lovetox we should find another venue for that
  396. jonas’ lskdjf, I see your points, and I think there is some merit to them
  397. Zash And as pep. touched on, Council isn't made to review UI/UX things.
  398. larma lovetox, as I just wrote "It makes a lot of sense to give hints how things could/should be displayed, especially when it has security implications"
  399. lskdjf > only thing you get with putting this stuff into XEPs is, it gets simply ignored well it's hard to ignore the compliance suites if you want to be an advanced client. You'd have to either do what the XEP says or be downgraded to a basic client just because you want to display two letters in your generated avatars.
  400. pep. Technically it's only a SHOULD. :-°
  401. pep. (I know.)
  402. lskdjf yeah basically everything in there is a SHOULD. So I can ignore the XEP and still be compliant?
  403. Ge0rG lskdjf: we really need to move this to standards. I'm currently not focused enough to give an appropriate response.
  404. Ge0rG My reading of 0392 was to provide a consistent hue value for the visual element associated with a given user, not more and not less.
  405. pep. consistent *through UI
  406. lskdjf Ge0rG, pep brought it to standarts already and you basically replied with "I disagree, I would like to challenge Counil" ... So I fail to see the advantage of going to standards.
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  410. Ge0rG lskdjf: you can provide your arguments to council. But in fact I much more appreciate your specific feedback on 0392, and I'm sure it will be incorporated to improve it
  411. lskdjf > My reading of 0392 was to provide a consistent hue value for the visual element associated with a given user, not more and not less. that already is problematic. Refer to what I wrote about reasons to use e.g. different color palettes. A body that standartizes a protocol does not have the task to mandate UI.
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  413. lskdjf > But in fact I much more appreciate your specific feedback on 0392, and I'm sure it will be incorporated to improve it I can only repeat: My proplem is that 0392 is in the compliance suites, not 0392 itself. And feedback on 0392 was already given on the ML yesterday.
  414. Ge0rG lskdjf: you just gave additional feedback that wasn't on the list
  415. Ge0rG lskdjf: and as I said, I can't provide adequate feedback right now
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  417. lovetox hm but still weird that this is a XEP
  418. lovetox as it has really nothing to do with the protocol
  419. lovetox not even remotely
  420. lovetox its only purpose is to shape UI
  421. lovetox weird that this was accepted
  422. lovetox i dont think there is another XEP like that
  423. jonas’ lovetox, `/me` is close
  424. jonas’ and '393 to some extent
  425. jonas’ depending on how you look at it
  426. jonas’ but yes...
  427. jonas’ I’m not sure what a better place for this would be tho
  428. lovetox in these XEPs there is at least something sent over the wire ^^
  429. lovetox i just think we need a place where we put stuff like that
  430. jonas’ true
  431. lovetox the modernxmpp project would be a start for example
  432. pep. lovetox, it's not supposed to be a Standards Track XEP tbh, 392
  433. jonas’ I don’t think that existed back then
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  435. Zash As I think someone said at last Summit, we can set up a process for this if people want to, like an UX track with a UX review council or a SIG or something.
  436. pep. I don't know about 0245, " /me" is "wire" format, but most of the rest is UI
  437. pep. Zash, sure that'd be more appropriate
  438. lovetox jonas’, this is not meant as a criticism of you writing the XEP, its just an observation from todays viewpoint :)
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  440. lskdjf lovetox, as was pointed out on the ML, it's indeed not intended to specify anything but _wire protocol_ in the standarts track, according to XEP-0001.
  441. lskdjf so yeah, technically this XEP shouldn't exist in it's current form
  442. Zash XEP-0245 is Informational at least
  443. lovetox there are actually many XEPs that hin at UI stuff
  444. lovetox or even mandate it
  445. lovetox like larma just wrote on the list, even the avatar xep which has a very early number, mandates how a client should resize avatars
  446. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2017-09-20?p=h#2017-09-20-e90eb46fa7027b61
  447. Zash 17:24:33 Link Mauve "SamWhited, also, why are the compliance suites standards tracks, instead of informational?"
  448. Zash Hah
  449. larma because they are supposed to, for some reason: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#types-Standards-Track
  450. larma wire protocols and protocol suites are allowed on standards track
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  453. Zash That's clear, yeah.
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  455. Zash Hasn't anyone remarked the color XEP being in Standards Track before? Can't find anything in my email archives and there wasn't much discussion at that council meeting.
  456. pep. Yeah no I guess it wasn't on purpose and nobody noticed
  457. Zash 2 years ago!
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