XSF Discussion - 2019-10-17

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07:03:53 Ge0rG Hey, looks like two XEPs were born last night
07:04:53 emus which one?
07:05:20 pep. Message moderation and Message retraction
07:06:27 emus something for the newsletter?
07:06:32 pep. Still needs editor work, they're in the inbox for now
07:06:35 pep. Sure
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10:06:48 flow pubsub/pep experts: Is it normal that I receive a notification twice on publication: http://paste.debian.net/1107636/ ?
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10:43:26 MattJ No, I don't think so
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13:26:22 nyco are we gonna reach the quorum today?
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13:30:52 nyco anyone?
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13:32:11 nyco anyway, a contact just pointed me to: https://www.libremonde.org a fork of Matrix protocol
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13:40:05 edhelas we should fork Matrix and move it to XML into TCP sockets
13:40:17 nyco oh sh*t, good idea!
13:40:20 nyco wait, what?
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15:44:54 Seve nyco, we didn't have a meeting today :) It was set to +2W
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15:49:04 Zash A *fork*? Ooookay
15:50:00 Zash edhelas, only if we drop the whole idea of being a graph database synchronization protocol, simple message passing should be enough for every need.
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15:55:00 Zash Re Stickers, I'm reminded that https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0038.xml is a thing that exists
15:57:05 Seve "the recent trend of using graphics" - that's funny
15:57:51 Zash MattJ: I thought `@bob.xmpp.org` was just a fixed string that served no purpose whatsoever.
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16:09:51 MattJ uh, maybe you're right
16:11:24 MattJ That does indeed seem a bit limiting, that you can't refer to data held by another entity
16:12:47 Zash And based on scanning the examples in the RFC that defines cid: it's just a namespace
16:13:07 Zash Better switch to ni://
16:13:43 Zash aka https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920
16:14:52 Zash MattJ: Also, it'd be kinda bad to leak your JID to xmpp:bob.xmpp.org or whatever you put as authority there.
16:15:48 MattJ Choose: A) leak JID to sender-chosen XMPP entity B) leak IP address to sender-chosen HTTP server
16:16:35 MattJ Also deployment of a BoB proxy should be far easier than deployment of a (secure) HTTP proxy alongside every XMPP server
16:16:46 Zash C) Steal Matrix thing where every server downloads and re-hosts every uploaded file?
16:18:21 Zash Or D) Provide a proxy that knows how to handle some magic new URL by proxying to the original HTTP Upload service.
16:19:06 Zash E) Declare that XMPP is for text chat, y'all gtfo with your graphics. Also let's go back to ASCII. 😛
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16:30:50 lovetox why not just promote available packs via pubsub
16:30:56 lovetox also update of packs via pubsub
16:31:09 lovetox and clients can download the packs and use them from their server
16:31:21 lovetox servers should look by itself that they support the most common ones
16:34:00 lovetox and just communicate the hashes to other users
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16:41:25 Zash BoB over PubSub?
16:42:06 Zash Actually, just BoB + extensive caching is probably good enough.
16:42:42 Zash Let me tell y'all about Link Mauves mod_bob
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18:15:39 Ge0rG Zash: you forgot F) Implement a content addressable URI scheme
18:16:07 Ge0rG Also a DHT and a torrent based distribution system.
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19:11:30 lovetox Zash i think BoB does not cut it
19:11:39 lovetox yes it can transfer a sticker
19:12:17 lovetox but realisticly you want sticker packs
19:12:29 lovetox distributet by the server
19:12:55 lovetox you can use bob to transfer the hash
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19:18:39 lovetox so maybe this could be its own XEP the distribution of the sticker packs
19:19:02 Zash xep-0038 but modern?
19:19:35 lovetox yeah on pubsub, so server can notify clients if there are updates or new packs
19:19:56 lovetox then we use bob or something to reference the hash
19:20:03 Ge0rG What do we need sticker packs for if we can have 0392 colored Emoji?
19:20:13 lovetox and if its not found you can query the server for the the hash if he has a pack for that
19:20:40 Zash Tho that doesn't solve all the privacy issues.
19:20:57 lovetox yeah what issue do you see?
19:21:02 lovetox i only communicate with my server
19:21:10 Ge0rG lovetox: you just invented copyright violation
19:21:12 Zash How do I get to see the stickers?
19:21:27 Zash Can I do that without talking to your server, which then learns my JID?
19:21:37 Zash Assuming MUC or somesuch
19:21:38 lovetox Zash, either your server has a pack for that or you dont
19:22:00 lovetox yes, servers should sync packs themself
19:22:10 lovetox if your server just has no pack for that hash, you just cant display it
19:22:13 lovetox end of story
19:23:00 lovetox Ge0rG, nobody forces a server admin to distrubte packs that they are not allowed to
19:23:58 Ge0rG lovetox: so people switch to the server where the admin bought the most sticker packs?
19:24:13 lovetox maybe, if thats important to them
19:25:04 lovetox hey im just brainstorm here, im even to lazy to use a emoji, far away from using a sticker
19:25:23 Ge0rG That's the same incentive system as running a tor exit node
19:26:35 Ge0rG You don't need stickers if you just render Emoji large enough
19:26:44 Ge0rG 😜
19:27:37 pep. It seems I'm missing out on the stickers thread..
19:27:43 lovetox stickers exist because people dont want to be limited by the unicode consortium
19:27:58 Ge0rG https://upload.yax.im/upload/SSCgX4FLWhltBl0q/tempFileForShare_20191017-212752.jpg
19:28:30 lovetox i agree you could probably get away with that for some time
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19:28:42 lovetox but at the end someone wants to introduce their own stickers
19:28:50 lovetox and then you have to tell them, not possible
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19:31:12 Ge0rG I tell them: purpose to the unicode consortium!
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19:31:27 Zash lovetox, if you separate the distribution into its own thing (wasn't there a xep for file sharing already?) then this sounds a lot like xep-0038, ie a standardized zip file layout with icons/stickers in it
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19:37:18 lovetox Zash this does only describe the pack format
19:37:25 lovetox i dont see anything about distribution
19:37:40 lovetox and also its ancient, not sure what we gain from reusing this
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19:39:48 Zash ancient doesn't have to mean bad (or good) but it doesn't hurt to make sure one at least triest to learn from previous attempts
19:41:16 Zash and not having distribution is precisly why I wrote "if you separate the distribution into its own thing", ie it's not there, it needs to come from elsewhere or be invented
19:49:19 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0329.xml
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19:51:28 lovetox yeah but not needed
19:51:36 lovetox just publish a http link on pubusub
19:51:45 lovetox 10 times easier than that
19:51:55 lovetox and i doubt servers will implement jingle for this
19:52:19 Zash I though 329 was something in pubsub, but it seems not.
19:52:58 Zash OOB or SIMS in PubSub or something like that
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