XSF Discussion - 2019-10-19

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  189. Daniel question to the people who are longer involved with the XSF then I am; why are XEPs (usually) created by individuals instead of working groups?
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  191. Daniel i mean some (few) XEPs are written by more than one person; but we don’t seem to have the tradition of working groups like the ietf has
  192. fippo most successful IETF work starts from individual drafts too
  193. fippo the closest the XSF has to a WG is a SIG and we haven't really had them for a while
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  196. Daniel i have a vague feeling (without knowing a lot about how the IETF works) that working groups could be more focused (regular meetings) and also more "democratic" as it would be a group of multiple people who have to have a rough consensus on the spec instead of just one author who has ultimate say in how things are written down (and then council basically just being able to say yes or no when it moves on)
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  198. Daniel but i might might be wrong. i just noticed that the xsf process mirrors a lot of the itef process; except that part
  199. Daniel and i'm wondering if there was a reason for that
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  201. flow IETF working groups also usually have (more or less) a single person who tries to determine the consensus and writes it down in the I-D. That job is not easy, at least sometimes, just look at the OpenPGP WG and 4880bis. It is also what I would expect from a XEP author, but as you mentioned, I also have the feeling that this is not how it currently works in XSF
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  203. flow When I worked on OX (XEP-0373, -0374), I set up a public monthly meeting and announced it. There was also a git where public could send patches to, which got regulary build so that everybody could view the current state of the ProtoXEP
  204. flow I wonder if we should do the same with message fastening
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  212. Link Mauve “18:16:46 Zash> C) Steal Matrix thing where every server downloads and re-hosts every uploaded file?”, that’s prosody-modules’s mod_bob.
  213. Link Mauve I’m still not sure how much of that is a good idea.
  214. Link Mauve Ah, you mentioned it afterwards.
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  217. Zash Link Mauve: It being in-band is limiting
  218. Zash Fine for stickers I imagine tho
  219. Link Mauve Yes.
  220. Link Mauve For a further iteration of bob, we might want to hook into 0261/0047 at least, to support more than one stanza.
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  235. Link Mauve “12:06:48 flow> pubsub/pep experts: Is it normal that I receive a notification twice on publication: http://paste.debian.net/1107636/ ?”, I have experienced a similar bug with Ejabberd when I have multiple resources subscribed to a PEP node, Holger told me it’s a known bug.
  236. pep. Daniel, flow: I think that's something we could improve yes. I don't especially like that only one person ultimately has a say and don't accept your change because they haven't had coffee yet, or more realistically because they have their own agenda and don't care about the rest
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  244. Kev One thing to note is that the authors don't 'own' the XEPs, the XSF does. So the authors don't hold a XEP hostage.
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  246. pep. Yes technically the council could "take over", but I'm not sure how well that would be accepted socially
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  248. pep. I haven't seen this happen during my short time being involved, apart for clearly abandonned XEPs, and then it was really "can we really do this?"
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  285. MattJ The counter to this is that it's also good to have one person ultimately responsible for getting the doc done and resolving any disputes
  286. jonas’ I see my role as a XEP author mainly as proxy between the community and the editor, once it has been accepted.
  287. jonas’ I see my role as a XEP author mainly as proxy between the community and the editor, once it has been accepted as Experimental.
  288. jonas’ This means however that I select which voices from the community I listen to though
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  296. led If the council votes, do they give any kind of feedback about why the have took their position?
  297. jonas’ led, when veto-ing, a council member is obliged to give a rationale
  298. jonas’ those should be included in the council minutes
  299. jonas’ and they are also included in the voting summaries Tedd Sterr sends
  300. led Ok that's good then.
  301. jonas’ and of course you can always ask
  302. jonas’ we’re not like the City Council, we don’t devour citizens.
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  307. flow MattJ, the counter to what exactly?
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  319. flow As far as I understood it, nobody disputes that there should, and maybe even has to be, one person chairing the process. I just think we can do better…
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  343. Ge0rG We hardly have enough persons to just write down what they think is best, never mind to have a democratic XEP design process
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  369. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0002.html what does it mean to be a SIG leader
  370. Zash pep.: Like a chair I guess?
  371. pep. so...?
  372. pep. XEP-0001 defines "Approving body Chair", well it doesn't. It only defines what a chair should do
  373. pep. "The precise rules for polls, including meetings and timeouts, are determined by the Chair of the Approving Body."
  374. Zash pep.: I was looking for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0019.html
  375. pep. ta
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  377. pep. So what, does that prevents anybody from creating SIGs anymore?
  378. pep. Do we need a XEP to revert this change
  379. pep. Do we need a XEP to revert this change?
  380. Daniel > pep.: I was looking for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0019.html That is a good read. That kinda explains my earlier question
  381. Zash So, nothing prevents you from forming your own, as '19 says, small ad-hoc group to work on a proposal.
  382. pep. Sure that people can already do.. it's just to be transparent and stuff
  383. pep. Also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0381.html
  384. pep. And it's still proposed, orz..
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  386. pep. "The Last Call ends on 2017-03-14"
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  389. Zash Heh
  390. Zash xeps$ grep status.Proposed xep-????.xml xep-0292.xml: <status>Proposed</status> xep-0300.xml: <status>Proposed</status> xep-0345.xml: <status>Proposed</status> xep-0353.xml: <status>Proposed</status> xep-0363.xml: <status>Proposed</status> xep-0381.xml: <status>Proposed</status>
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  394. !XSF_Martin 345 got an extra blank?
  395. Zash Indentation moves in mysterious ways.
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  430. DebXWoody Groups can also be build based on components. .e.g. security, mobile, processes, performance,... maybe a kind of XEP Security Group which are working on security,... Just an idea. But it is important that there is one person, which is taking care about the activities with a group.
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  481. pep. <xs:enumeration value='Organizational'/> < apparently there's no type Procedural.
  482. pep. Good thing schemas are not normatives..
  483. Zash Ops
  484. Zash Heheh
  485. pep. That's really sad
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  493. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/846 here.
  494. pep. Technically schemas are not normative, that's editor land.
  495. pep. Oh, and revision block.
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