XSF Discussion - 2019-10-24


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  8. pep.

    ralphm, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/846 can this be added to the agenda. It should only be editor land it's a change in the schema but editors prefer to be on the safe side

  9. pep.

    (I couldn't add stuff on the trello board)

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  92. ralphm

    Yeah, I don't think this requires a board vote. Please make it so.

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  119. MattJ

    ralphm, I probably won't make the meeting later as I'll be travelling, but if I do it'll be mobile-only

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  121. Seve

    ralphm, MattJ, I'm unfortunately in the same situation today :(

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  126. ralphm

    Me too

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  131. Guus

    Nyco and me will hold the fortress!

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  133. Daniel

    Can Board follow up on the financial report? Apparently this was discussed at the end of last month (no minutes from that meeting and I was driving at the time) but never acted upon?

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  135. Guus

    Daniel yes. It's still on our agenda.

  136. Guus

    from what I recall, we ended up debating if we'd like Peter to provide data from past years.

  137. Guus

    chat log here: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-09-26?p=h#2019-09-26-ae8c71a4f222d202

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  139. Daniel

    From the looks of it there hasn't been a real conclusion and to my knowledge it hasn't been brought up again at other meetings. (despite 'still being on the agenda') - can I ask for it to be put on the real agenda?

  140. Daniel

    If Board wants my input publishing current data (2018) is fine for now. And if it looks fishy people can ask for more?

  141. Guus

    It did not ever leave the agenda - it has been on my mind every meeting, but we simply didn't get around to doing it. One thing that I noted in the last meeting was that I think it'd be good to find a way to be more efficient in those meetings.

  142. Daniel

    If he really has that stuff on paper publishing all of it seems a bit much. If it were just upload uploading some spreadsheet I'd be with you in asking for all of it

  143. Guus

    Daniel I'm curious why you bring this up. I have no problem with us releasing this information, but I personally have little interest in it (other than that I'd want to prevent us from being regarded as secretive / non-open). What's your motivation?

  144. Daniel

    I brought it up *now* because today is board meeting and I had a minute of spare time to ask for it. It has been on my mind for a bit longer. I (as a scam member) would start to spend some money and I would like to see how much money we have, how much new money is coming in and what things we spend money on in the past. Just to get a grasp on what kind of money I'd be OK asking for

  145. Daniel

    I've also heard rumors that we are not very good at actually collecting money from our sponsors

  146. Daniel

    (sending invoices)

  147. Daniel

    *would like to start spending

  148. Guus

    Daniel for SCAM, there's a yearly budget of 1000 USD that we can spend.

  149. Daniel

    Right. I have however no grasp if this is a fair amount

  150. Daniel

    Like what part of the annual budget is that

  151. Guus

    and yes, we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past. That has even been discussed in this room, nothing about that is 'rumor' as far as I know. πŸ™‚

  152. Guus

    Fair questions.

  153. Guus

    Like I said, the financial reporting never was on a backburner, even if we didn't get around to handle it in the last few meetings.

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  157. Guus

    as for SCAM's budget - I'm not sure if we can, or should, qualify 'fair'. I'd have to check, but I think we've not spent any of that budget this year

  158. Guus

    (maybe some around the summit/fosdem, but that might also have come from last years budget)

  159. Guus

    so maybe it's more a question of: what do you want to do with the budget?

  160. Guus

    (And if we want to spend more than the budget, we can take that to board)

  161. pep.

    Guus, Daniel and I didn't know about it until not so long ago :p

  162. Guus

    "it" ?

  163. pep.

    The budget

  164. pep.

    SCAM's

  165. Guus

    Ok. Well, there is. πŸ™‚

  166. Guus

    I've mentioned it just now in the SCAM MUC

  167. Daniel

    (discussing this here so other non scam people can see this as well)

  168. Daniel

    Yeah I've known about the scam budget for a couple of months /weeks now. That's fine

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  170. Daniel

    I could imagine myself asking scam to pay for sprint venues. We don't always have hacker spaces or something in the cities we want to do sprints in. And/or hackerspaces are not always ideal locations for reasons. Now if I were to ask for rent that can very quickly exceed the budget of 1k. However before I do I just want to know how much money for example 1k rent for 3 days is to the xsf

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  172. Daniel

    And then decide if I can justify asking for that

  173. Guus

    fwiw, the SCAM budget was requested as a means to not have to go to board for every expense, which (as you've found) can take a long time. It was not intended as any kind of hard limit that SCAM could spend.

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  175. Daniel

    Yeah I see the scam budget paying for day to day items such as merch and drinks at sprints

  176. Guus

    us wanting to spend numbers like that does warrant board involvement, I think.

  177. Daniel

    But not for the entire sprint

  178. Guus

    right

  179. Daniel

    That's fine asking board

  180. Daniel

    I just don't know if it is a reasonable ask

  181. Guus

    but I understand your motivation to see the board financials.

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  183. Daniel

    And also even if Board decides people need to be able to understand the decision making

  184. Kev

    I'd think of it in terms of the Summit, which is the most important XSF-arranged event of the year, which we usually try to get sponsorship for all of and the budget comes in at less than that much usually (I think).

  185. Kev

    So I'd have thought there'd need to be a strong argument for why it was valuable to the XSF for spending that sort of amount.

  186. Guus

    It'd be nice to decouple budget from one important event - as such coupling makes it harder for other important events to be developed.

  187. Kev

    My point is that if we try to avoid spending much on the most important event we arrange, spending more on other events would need some significant justification. In my view.

  188. Guus

    Kev, there's an argument to be made that the sprints serve a good purpose - but I agree that for much money to be spend, we need to discuss that further.

  189. pep.

    Also, we can do many more events :)

  190. pep.

    We just don't have any idea if financials would even allow for this

  191. Kev

    They wouldn't, I think. We don't bring in that much from sponsorship, unless things have changed since I last remember.

  192. pep.

    I agree about all what Daniel said above fwiw

  193. pep.

    Kev: the issue is not that you think it would or not

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  195. Guus

    I understand that people want to have the numbers to form their own opinion.

  196. Guus

    also, that might be a motivation to more actively attract funds.

  197. pep.

    Yes

  198. pep.

    To both

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  201. Guus

    Kev also, I'm not sure if we are trying to 'avoid spending' money on the Summit, other than that we're careful to not overspend / overindulge, as we recognize that we depend greatly on donations of others?

  202. Seve

    To let money out, you want to make sure money will be comming in.

  203. Kev

    We seem to put a lot of emphasis on needing people to sponsor the room, the lunch, the dinner each year.

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  206. Kev

    I think it might be hard to justify asking for all that sponsorship for the Summit, if the XSF is giving out significant amounts to run other, less well attended and core, events.

  207. Guus

    Kev I'm seeing that as us resorting to measures as we're doing a poor job of getting 'regular' / year round sponsors.

  208. Kev

    Yes, I agree with that.

  209. Guus

    Kev right, now I see your point

  210. Guus

    and I agree.

  211. Kev

    If we had buckets of cash, arranging more 'minor' events would seem like a good use of it. We just don't.

  212. Guus

    Opening the financials might allow others to come to the same conclusion.

  213. Guus

    (I almost typed 'collusion' there, I'm following the US news to closely)

  214. pep.

    Kev: even if that might be true, that's not an argument against revealing financials

  215. Kev

    No, which is why I didn't understand why Board were putting roadblocks in the way of doing so.

  216. Guus

    I don't think he ever made the argument to not reveal financials Pep?

  217. Guus

    I don't think board is putting in roadblocks, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion

  218. pep.

    Guus: ah ok that's how I understood it

  219. Kev

    I thought "Oh, we can't just release them from now on, we have to keep them hidden until we can release a full history" was where it was.

  220. Kev

    Which I think is pointless.

  221. Guus

    we're basically debating: "should we release financials for the current year only, or also venture further down in the financial history?"

  222. Guus

    None in board argued to keep things hidden

  223. pep.

    I'd like to have the full history in the long run, but I'm happy with the current year as a start, better than nothing and that can already help

  224. Guus

    board being ineffective to come to a decision on wether to release current year only, or more history might have perceived as such. But, to be fair to board, I think they only discussed it once, in a meeting that was already running over time.

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  227. Daniel

    we seem to have at least 3 platinum sponsors? (given they have 'a page on the xsf') site. that's 30k

  228. Daniel

    that doesn’t seem like we are super tight on cash

  229. Daniel

    unless i don’t understand how expensive the summit is

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  232. Daniel

    which is why i would like to the the numbers at least for one year

  233. Guus

    more reasons to disclose those financials.

  234. Daniel

    i don’t distrust people or anything. that's why for me 2018 would be fine

  235. Daniel

    because i reckon all years will be similar

  236. Guus

    I'll try to push board to address this in todays meeting, but as you might have read, at least three members are, at best, attending from mobile devices.

  237. Daniel

    also we have another 2-4k coming in from gsco?

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  241. Guus

    Unsure - I don't wnat to speculate.

  242. Guus

    instead, I'll try to facilitate board coming to a conclusion on the publication of financials.

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  244. Daniel

    > Unsure - I don't wnat to speculate. Of course. Me neither. But that's what people will do if they can do quick math on one hand with the sponsors that are visible on the page and on the other hand have Kev saying that we don't even have enough money to pay for summit. But yes thank you Guus for following up with board on that

  245. Guus

    I think I have not disagreed with anyone here, other than that i don't believe that board is putting up hurdles for making financials public, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion on this.

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  247. Guus

    (Disclaimer for the log files: I currently serve on the Board)

  248. Kev

    Ok, I'm sorry if I was being unfair with the barriers comment.

  249. Kev

    It seemed to me there was a trivial decision to make (release for now on) that could be +1d in seconds, and then a more complicated second question that didn't need to block the first of asking Peter to reconstruct past records.

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  253. Guus

    Kev, I think board didn't do an efficient job in discussing the topic, which bogged down everything. We should simply kick it in gear again, and finish the one discussion that we had, be done with it.

  254. Guus

    And I can understand how inactivity is easily misjudged as 'putting up hurdles'

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  256. edhelas

    https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=113dde3cc7ce7284&tk=1dnufmkih40kn801&from=serp&vjs=3

  257. edhelas

    Facebook Portal is built using XMPP ?!

  258. edhelas

    ah no it's in the prefered qualifications

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  292. pep.

    Maybe we could ask them officially to disclaim and, oh and also drop a few dollars :-Β°

  293. Guus

    pep. go for it

  294. pep.

    I mean "The XSF"

  295. Guus

    The XSF isn't a magical entity that out of itself produces questions πŸ˜ƒ

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  297. pep.

    too bad

  298. Guus

    do you want to draft something, maybe find a lead that we can contact?

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  302. pep.

    I have unfortunately very little writing/communications skills (if it wasn't obvious enough will all I write here) :x

  303. pep.

    Unless you're happy with my sentence above

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  305. Guus

    Very happy.

  306. pep.

    "Hey facebook. Give us monies"

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  309. Guus

    Excellent. Now please find the right person at Facebook to send this to.

  310. pep.

    support@

  311. Guus

    We then have a concrete proposal, that the XSF can debate/improve upon.

  312. pep.

    postmaster@

  313. pep.

    looking for something, but I doubt this kind of information is publicly displayed anyway.

  314. pep.

    Having connections would certainly help a bit here

  315. Guus

    My first feedback would be: "it's my estimation that this proposal has little chance of success. Please improve it before sending it" πŸ˜‰

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  317. pep.

    That I could have guessed myself :)

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  321. pep.

    Can we not get somebody to do that? As in, we have money, can we not spend money to get more money? That's usually how it works right.

  322. pep.

    We still need to find a point of contact. How many members do we have, they can be useful sometimes, maybe somebody knows something or someone that knows someone else

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  328. Guus

    https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html

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  330. pep.

    That was rhetorical

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  358. lskdjf

    > we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past. Guus, I'd be interested in the extend to which this happened. Also, are there plans to still invoice the amount or has that already been done? To my (little) understanding of contracts, those companies would still legally be required to pay and the XSF already did their part (displaying the companies as sponsors)

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  361. Guus

    I don't know exactly. Also, I don't think we should pressurize companies in paying things after we slipped up. That's likely to ensure no future sponsorships will happen.

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  363. larma

    Guus, if they are not paying, what are the sponsors good for?

  364. Guus

    from what I understand, it's us not invoicing some of them, not them not paying invoices

  365. Guus

    Also, this was quite a while ago, and was addressed.

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  370. larma

    So those that were not invoiced in the past are invoiced now? Didn't they ask why there were not invoiced before? Was that an actual board decision to not invoice them delayed or just continued laziness?

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  372. Guus

    From what I recall, this involved sponsors where it was ambiguous if they'd silently extended their sponsorship with another year. Since this became known, we've purged the list of sponsors. Those that are still a sponsor, are invoiced. To my knowledge, there's no issue with payment.

  373. Guus

    (I've not actually checked the latter, but I have no indications that something is amiss in that respect)

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  377. larma

    So the actual problem wasn't sponsors not being invoiced but sponsors not being removed from the sponsor list after they were no longer a sponsor?

  378. Guus

    a bit of both, probably.

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  381. Guus

    If we'd engaged them, they might have remained a sponsor for a few more years. SOme of the sponsors that we removed ceased to exist, so there's no point in following up with them.

  382. Guus

    (as in, company out of business)

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  386. larma

    makes sense πŸ™‚

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  393. larma

    Guus, looking through archives: ProcessOne is a sponsor since 2015 (excluding May-July 2019), Tigase since end of 2016. Both of them seemingly expressed they want to be a sponsor in 2019. Was any of the two not invoiced for their sponsorship since they began being a sponsor (2015 or 2016 respectively)?

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  415. Guus

    I don't know the details, not can I immediately find out.

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  438. Seve

    πŸ˜ƒ

  439. Guus

    hello!

  440. nyco

    Board?

  441. Guus

    Board meeting time

  442. Guus

    I'm seeing three

  443. Seve

    πŸ‘†βœŒ

  444. Guus

    this morning, several people warned that they'd be on mobile, at best.

  445. MattJ

    o/

  446. nyco

    I'm on a customer meeting, I'll follow with difficulties

  447. Guus bangs gavel

  448. Guus

    Welcome at this edition of the XSF Board weekly meeting.

  449. Guus

    as usual, the agenda is driven by what's on our Trello board: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  450. nyco

    Previoulsy on "Board Meetings"... :)

  451. Guus

    1. Role call

  452. Seve

    :D

  453. Seve

    Greetings 🎩

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  455. Guus

    I've seen everyone but ralphm (who this morning warned that he might not be available)

  456. Guus

    mentioning him in the hope he'll pop in...

  457. Guus

    While we wait: does anyone want to add something to the agenda?

  458. Seve

    Not me, thank you

  459. MattJ

    Nor me

  460. Guus

    This morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first.

  461. nyco

    I couldn't find time to read the thread, sorry

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  463. Guus

    2. Minute taker

  464. Guus

    Would someone from the floor be so kind as to compose minutes?

  465. Guus

    ah, i forgot: last time, we discussed doing this live-ish, right?

  466. Guus

    as most of us are either on mobile, or busy, I"m thinking that's not feasible today?

  467. nyco

    right, I will propose a process, plus the tools for this

  468. Guus

    so for today, we could really use a minute taker, to not have to depend on chat logs

  469. nyco

    agree, mostly desktop solution

  470. Guus eyes the room

  471. Seve

    Today is not a good day for that due to mobiles :) but we can draft something out together after, checking the logs

  472. Shell has joined

  473. Guus

    sadly, no volunteers. If someone would like to do this retroactively, please.

  474. Guus

    In the interest of time, I'm continuing.

  475. Guus

    3. Publicize XSF Financials.

  476. MattJ

    +1 ;)

  477. Guus

    Does someone want to comment on my earlier email?

  478. Seve

    > +1 ;) Nice

  479. nyco

    I'll read the thread before voting

  480. MattJ

    As you and Seve already observed, we were all already in agreement about publication

  481. nyco

    off meeting

  482. MattJ

    There was just the matter of whether we would ask Peter to go through his paper archives for historical stuff

  483. pdurbin has left

  484. Guus

    Ok, I motion that we ask our Treasurer to make prepare for publication of a summary of XSF financials, to be published on the XMPP.org website, for the current fiscal year, as well as future years.

  485. MattJ

    +1

  486. Seve

    +1

  487. Guus

    +1

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  491. stpeter

    Yep, I can do that.

  492. Guus

    I will - right, stpeter has been informed πŸ™‚

  493. MattJ

    :)

  494. stpeter

    It will take me a few weeks, though.

  495. Guus

    while we have you - there was a debate last time, that revolved around us asking you to do this for past years

  496. Guus

    I don't think anyone expects this overnight, I'm fine with a few weeks (for the most recent data only)

  497. stpeter

    The past years can be done, too. We once had this information on the website (several websites ago!), so the wayback machine could perhaps help us. But in any case I have all the information, I just need to compile it again.

  498. Guus

    There was an argument where people felt it unfair/unneeded to do this for past years, while others (well, me), suggested that it'd be helpful to have, and well, since you offered...

  499. Guus

    Is the amount of work involved significantly more, after you did the first year?

  500. Guus

    alternatively, we could circle back to this after you did the the most recent stuff only

  501. Daniel

    If you decide to publish all can we prioritize 2018+current over 20 years of history

  502. winfried has left

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  504. Guus

    I've seen history on the website before, so I'm assuming that a large part of it is simply scraping old data?

  505. Guus

    (others, like myself, can help with that)

  506. Guus

    stpeter ?

  507. jubalh has left

  508. Guus

    We might have lost him. I think we can agree to have at least the most recent data. Let's circle back to having historical data too in a future meeting.

  509. stpeter

    I'm not sure where on the site we used to have this information. It's possible I have it all on my computer, but I don't have time to look right now because I need to take my wife to the airport soon.

  510. stpeter

    (By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)

  511. stpeter

    But prioritizing recent years makes sense.

  512. Guus

    understood. If we can at least a commitment that somewhere in the next few weeks we'll publish the most recent data, that'd be good.

  513. stpeter

    Sure thing!

  514. Guus

    I'll take anything else as a bonus. I'd be happy to help you scrape stuff

  515. Guus

    Safe travels to your wife.

  516. stpeter

    I'll visit the wayback machine over the weekend.

  517. waqas has joined

  518. Guus

    thanks!

  519. Guus

    4. Commitment for weeks ahead: Review of Roadmap page

  520. Guus

    Ralphs icon is with that, on Trello

  521. Guus

    We discussed this earlier, but I'm unsure what the current state or action is

  522. jubalh has joined

  523. Guus

    crickets.

  524. waqas has left

  525. stpeter

    (We might also have the relevant files on an XSF machine, will check there too.)

  526. waqas has joined

  527. Guus

    let's park this for when Ralph is back

  528. Seve

    Ralph mentioned he would work on a list of possible topics for the Roadmap

  529. Guus

    5. Call for action: find candidates for the upcoming elections

  530. Shell has left

  531. Guus

    Did we send out stuff through our comm channels?

  532. Chobbes has joined

  533. Guus

    I've not seen anything, but I've been away for a few days too.

  534. Seve

    I'm not aware, apart from the emails sent out by Alex

  535. Guus

    nyco do you happen to know?

  536. Guus

    Alas, we lost him to that meeting he warned us about

  537. emus has joined

  538. Guus

    Does anyone have concrete plans to address this?

  539. Guus

    Have people in mind?

  540. Guus

    The current list of candidates is short: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2019

  541. Guus

    Especially for board

  542. Guus

    err, council, sorry.

  543. Seve

    I don't know of any person that could fit or be interested

  544. Seve

    We can tweet about it

  545. Guus

    Shall we draft an open invitation to be posted on our blog, and/or twitter?

  546. MattJ

    sgtm

  547. MattJ

    It would also make it easier for those of us in the community to link potential candidates to

  548. MattJ

    (which implies it would be good for such a post to have an overview of responsibilities)

  549. Guus

    Yeah. We could take Alex's default text as a template - I'd love to expand on it a little though

  550. Guus

    Yeah, that sounds good MattJ

  551. Guus

    Does anyone have a concrete text in mind, or shall I draft a suggestion?

  552. MattJ

    I don't, but happy to review a draft

  553. mukt2 has left

  554. Guus

    ok

  555. Guus

    As it's time

  556. Guus

    6 AOB

  557. Guus

    Anyone?

  558. Seve

    None

  559. MattJ

    None

  560. Guus

    If I'm not mistaking, DST switchover is upon us, this weekend. Board members are all in the same switchover region, but others might be affected

  561. Guus

    (just in case you're in the US and REALLY want to be here for the next meeting?)

  562. Guus

    7. Date/Time of next

  563. Guus

    +1w

  564. Seve

    All good!

  565. Guus

    <the end>

  566. Guus bangs gavel

  567. Guus

    Thanks

  568. MattJ

    Thanks Guus

  569. Seve

    Thank you Guus

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  583. Guus

    MattJ draft sent by mail

  584. Guus

    MattJ _rough_ draft sent by mail

  585. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  586. pep.

    > Guus> This morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first. on board@ that's not public?

  587. MattJ

    Correct

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  590. MattJ

    I don't believe it contained anything that wasn't discussed in the room today or in previous meetings

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  597. larma

    financial summary 2001-mid 2008: https://web.archive.org/web/20150315021548/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/

  598. stpeter has joined

  599. Guus

    Thanks larma / ping stpeter

  600. stpeter

    larma: thanks for that!

  601. pep.

    stpeter, "(By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)"

  602. pep.

    What did this mean

  603. pep.

    (I'm compiling minutes)

  604. Guus

    Thanks pep.

  605. Guus

    I read that as that he might have all data that he compiled earlier still on his computer somehwere, but that he didn't compile data from all available rough data

  606. stpeter

    We have records for the early years. I will create financial summaries for the recent years, starting from 2019, but I will need to fill in 2008-2018 because https://web.archive.org/web/20150315021548/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/ indicates that I last did this in 2008.

  607. stpeter

    (Well, we have *records* for all the years, but they're in a fireproof safe at my house.)

  608. pep.

    stpeter, I see

  609. pep.

    So it'll just take time but data is present

  610. pep.

    somewhere

  611. stpeter

    Yes, the data just needs to be compiled - i.e., I need to look at all the expense reports and add things up. Not that hard.

  612. pep.

    k

  613. stpeter

    OK, now I actually need to go, I will check in later.

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  621. pep.

    Minutes sent.

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  635. Guus

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/626

  636. pep.

    "only a few hours a week" hmm maybe this should be removed

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  642. Guus

    I'm out for the day

  643. Guus

    Or at least a couple of hours

  644. Guus

    Please leave comments in the PR

  645. pep.

    k

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  797. MattJ

    What types of invites do clients currently use with MUC? Do any clients do direct invitations?

  798. j.r has left

  799. flow

    larma, FYI, we already depend on the unicode standard for our wire format, see also the most recent discussion at the IETF's XMPP WG mailing list

  800. flow

    also, I think that if you go for bytes or codepoints than sender (and ideally also recipient) should normalize the unicode string frist

  801. pdurbin has left

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  803. lovetox

    yes gajim in some circumstances

  804. stpeter has joined

  805. Zash

    MattJ: I found a handful of mediated invites in my archive, no direct.

  806. lovetox

    about the sticker discussion

  807. lovetox

    byte seems very weird, i have to decode the stanza from the wire

  808. lovetox

    then get the body data

  809. lovetox

    then reencode it? split it up into parts

  810. Zash

    I (posted to the list that I) would go for codepoints.

  811. lovetox

    decode the single parts again

  812. mukt2 has left

  813. Zash

    Everything except JavaScript should be able to deal with that.

  814. pdurbin has joined

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  816. Zash

    Wait, what

  817. Zash

    Those were using XEP-0249 syntax but were sent from MUCs

  818. lovetox

    also whole discussion sounds like someone *wants* to find problems

  819. Zash

    Human language is complicated.

  820. flow

    Human is complicated

  821. jubalh has joined

  822. lovetox

    lets just use codepoints and be finished with it, and questions like what if a graphem consists of mutliple codepoints and reference links into it

  823. lovetox

    yeah what then? nothing then, i apply bold to that and if what comes out is garbage

  824. lovetox

    i open a issue with the client that sent me that garbage

  825. lovetox

    but thats about it

  826. Zash

    yeah

  827. Zash

    Bugs will probably happen regardless

  828. flow

    I am undecided between codepoints and extended grapheme clusters, but I believe that if we use codepoints we should normalize the strings

  829. Zash

    Alternatively, pick a magic marker code point and replace that.

  830. flow

    cause otherwhise the codepoints may be different. Although this may be unlikely, I wouldn't risk it and I believe most platforms provide unicode normalization APIs, so it should be easy

  831. Zash

    or bring back xhtml-im and use <img>

  832. j.r has joined

  833. flow

    the rumors that xhtml-im is gone and needs to be brought back are exaggerated ;)

  834. Zash

    `git revert 48593ca5b8659553c02ce7b9e12fa7660436d9bc 4c5db548251a91d8e6c55b1add84f92765d172a3` and pretend nothing happened

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  850. larma

    flow, I don't think the IETF mailing list issue is a real issue. Basically it says: PRECIS doesn't define the Unicode version to be used, so we are fucked. It's true that this is an issue in the standard, but also it shouldn't really matter in practice as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you. The issue of counting characters is much more imminent and will have real impact if not handled properly *now*. People are already using markup/reference XEP and do basically random stuff when there is bodys multi codepoint graphemes in place. Regarding normalizing: Clients probably should normalize before sending (and before determining markup/reference positions), however normalizing is Unicode version specific behavior, so a second normalizing by a different entity (using a different unicode version) might end up and further changes and thus this entity would be required to update the markup/reference positions. So it's probably better to just not do it when receiving or forwarding if you don't want to deal with that. Also note that normalizing might actually break things if the sender uses a newer unicode version for normalization.

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  853. moparisthebest

    > as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you.

  854. moparisthebest

    you mean the thing you *shouldn't* do ? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-03

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  856. Zash

    aka draft-postel-was-wrong or somesuch

  857. moparisthebest

    I liked the original working title better hehe https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong

  858. moparisthebest

    +1 to Zash for having the best memory

  859. j.r has left

  860. flow

    larma, I don't think we are fucked (mostly because I think what PRECIS does is sensible). All we need is agility regarding the supported Unicode standard in runtimes or libraries. In fact, chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)

  861. flow

    And what the draft-iab-protocol-maintenance I-D says

  862. pdurbin has left

  863. Zash

    Wait didn't that get RFC'd?

  864. Zash

    Huh, not yet I guess

  865. larma

    flow, sure for sending this is a sane thing to do, but for receiving you should be more liberal. After all your cannot ensure OS and/or client are of recent version.

  866. Zash

    be liberal or fail loudly

  867. Zash

    but also don't fail.

  868. moparisthebest

    > chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)

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  870. moparisthebest

    Any Redhat ever might surprise you!

  871. Zash

    Mmmmmmmm Enterprise

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  874. flow

    moparisthebest, at least fedora has a unicode-ucd

  875. flow

    larma, I am not sure if you can be liberal, or, at least, if it wouldn't cause more problems in the long run. Being liberal in what to accept often sounds like a nice easy solution, but it sometimes causes unforeseen issues and in general causes the issues described in the I-D

  876. Zash

    Maybe the real answer is "it depends"

  877. flow

    as so often

  878. moparisthebest

    I don't know about unicode, but up to date redhat 7 has a curl that was released Feb 6 2013, and up to date still supported redhat 6 has a curl that was released in Nov 4 2009

  879. moparisthebest

    unicode is surely just as bad if not worse

  880. flow

    What implementations could do is to use an old unicode version when verifying and "generating" JIDs, to ensure maximum interoperability

  881. Zash

    strict mode when creating users and such?

  882. moparisthebest

    wouldn't that disallow things allowed by newer unicode versions?

  883. Zash

    yes, that's the point

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  885. flow

    moparisthebest, yes, but if you prevent the user from even generating such JIDs you achieve maximum interop

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  887. moparisthebest

    to ensure maximum interoperability maybe impls should just limit everyone to ASCII

  888. flow

    wanna create an new MUC? make sure to use unicode 6.0 (or so) to prepare and enforce the JID that you send to the MUC service

  889. Zash

    and now you're on the unicode upgrade threadmill! enjoy

  890. pdurbin has joined

  891. Zash

    them users gonna want those new codepoints, better upgrade

  892. flow

    it's software and protocols, we are always in the upgrade threadmill

  893. Zash

    Is CentOS 6 dead yet?

  894. moparisthebest

    I don't think so, redhat 6 isn't

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  902. Zash

    https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/ilURA86kFBb66daT/image.png

  903. Zash

    There was something about ligatures but I don't remember the exact details.

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  907. larma

    Zash, ligatures are a font only thing that affects displaying but not anything the toolkit is doing, so you can still select half of a ligature. Depending on toolkit, the selecting thing can already change how ligatures are displayed. I don't remember which, but I know I have once seen a messenger that manually rendered the cursor in the input field and this broke ligatures if the cursor was between the two characters that make up a ligature. And this actually can affect the two chars length (if they are shorter as a ligature) which could cause the multiline text field to wrap differently. Long story short: moving the cursor through the text field would actually cause the text in it to jump around.

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