XSF Discussion - 2019-10-24

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00:16:52 pep. ralphm, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/846 can this be added to the agenda. It should only be editor land it's a change in the schema but editors prefer to be on the safe side
00:22:10 pep. (I couldn't add stuff on the trello board)
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05:56:31 ralphm Yeah, I don't think this requires a board vote. Please make it so.
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07:11:48 MattJ ralphm, I probably won't make the meeting later as I'll be travelling, but if I do it'll be mobile-only
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07:13:49 Seve ralphm, MattJ, I'm unfortunately in the same situation today :(
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07:17:15 ralphm Me too
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07:25:16 Guus Nyco and me will hold the fortress!
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07:32:53 Daniel Can Board follow up on the financial report? Apparently this was discussed at the end of last month (no minutes from that meeting and I was driving at the time) but never acted upon?
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07:36:14 Guus Daniel yes. It's still on our agenda.
07:37:20 Guus from what I recall, we ended up debating if we'd like Peter to provide data from past years.
07:38:49 Guus chat log here: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-09-26?p=h#2019-09-26-ae8c71a4f222d202
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07:46:02 Daniel From the looks of it there hasn't been a real conclusion and to my knowledge it hasn't been brought up again at other meetings. (despite 'still being on the agenda') - can I ask for it to be put on the real agenda?
07:47:09 Daniel If Board wants my input publishing current data (2018) is fine for now. And if it looks fishy people can ask for more?
07:47:55 Guus It did not ever leave the agenda - it has been on my mind every meeting, but we simply didn't get around to doing it. One thing that I noted in the last meeting was that I think it'd be good to find a way to be more efficient in those meetings.
07:49:13 Daniel If he really has that stuff on paper publishing all of it seems a bit much. If it were just upload uploading some spreadsheet I'd be with you in asking for all of it
07:50:30 Guus Daniel I'm curious why you bring this up. I have no problem with us releasing this information, but I personally have little interest in it (other than that I'd want to prevent us from being regarded as secretive / non-open). What's your motivation?
07:53:35 Daniel I brought it up *now* because today is board meeting and I had a minute of spare time to ask for it. It has been on my mind for a bit longer. I (as a scam member) would start to spend some money and I would like to see how much money we have, how much new money is coming in and what things we spend money on in the past. Just to get a grasp on what kind of money I'd be OK asking for
07:54:03 Daniel I've also heard rumors that we are not very good at actually collecting money from our sponsors
07:54:12 Daniel (sending invoices)
07:54:45 Daniel *would like to start spending
07:54:55 Guus Daniel for SCAM, there's a yearly budget of 1000 USD that we can spend.
07:55:32 Daniel Right. I have however no grasp if this is a fair amount
07:55:54 Daniel Like what part of the annual budget is that
07:55:55 Guus and yes, we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past. That has even been discussed in this room, nothing about that is 'rumor' as far as I know. 🙂
07:56:14 Guus Fair questions.
07:56:42 Guus Like I said, the financial reporting never was on a backburner, even if we didn't get around to handle it in the last few meetings.
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08:00:57 Guus as for SCAM's budget - I'm not sure if we can, or should, qualify 'fair'. I'd have to check, but I think we've not spent any of that budget this year
08:01:13 Guus (maybe some around the summit/fosdem, but that might also have come from last years budget)
08:01:38 Guus so maybe it's more a question of: what do you want to do with the budget?
08:01:53 Guus (And if we want to spend more than the budget, we can take that to board)
08:02:10 pep. Guus, Daniel and I didn't know about it until not so long ago :p
08:02:23 Guus "it" ?
08:02:30 pep. The budget
08:02:48 pep. SCAM's
08:03:01 Guus Ok. Well, there is. 🙂
08:04:31 Guus I've mentioned it just now in the SCAM MUC
08:09:52 Daniel (discussing this here so other non scam people can see this as well)
08:10:19 Daniel Yeah I've known about the scam budget for a couple of months /weeks now. That's fine
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08:12:25 Daniel I could imagine myself asking scam to pay for sprint venues. We don't always have hacker spaces or something in the cities we want to do sprints in. And/or hackerspaces are not always ideal locations for reasons. Now if I were to ask for rent that can very quickly exceed the budget of 1k. However before I do I just want to know how much money for example 1k rent for 3 days is to the xsf
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08:12:39 Daniel And then decide if I can justify asking for that
08:12:56 Guus fwiw, the SCAM budget was requested as a means to not have to go to board for every expense, which (as you've found) can take a long time. It was not intended as any kind of hard limit that SCAM could spend.
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08:13:47 Daniel Yeah I see the scam budget paying for day to day items such as merch and drinks at sprints
08:13:54 Guus us wanting to spend numbers like that does warrant board involvement, I think.
08:13:54 Daniel But not for the entire sprint
08:13:57 Guus right
08:14:05 Daniel That's fine asking board
08:14:21 Daniel I just don't know if it is a reasonable ask
08:14:26 Guus but I understand your motivation to see the board financials.
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08:14:48 Daniel And also even if Board decides people need to be able to understand the decision making
08:15:38 Kev I'd think of it in terms of the Summit, which is the most important XSF-arranged event of the year, which we usually try to get sponsorship for all of and the budget comes in at less than that much usually (I think).
08:16:37 Kev So I'd have thought there'd need to be a strong argument for why it was valuable to the XSF for spending that sort of amount.
08:16:51 Guus It'd be nice to decouple budget from one important event - as such coupling makes it harder for other important events to be developed.
08:17:25 Kev My point is that if we try to avoid spending much on the most important event we arrange, spending more on other events would need some significant justification. In my view.
08:17:42 Guus Kev, there's an argument to be made that the sprints serve a good purpose - but I agree that for much money to be spend, we need to discuss that further.
08:18:25 pep. Also, we can do many more events :)
08:18:55 pep. We just don't have any idea if financials would even allow for this
08:19:28 Kev They wouldn't, I think. We don't bring in that much from sponsorship, unless things have changed since I last remember.
08:19:30 pep. I agree about all what Daniel said above fwiw
08:19:48 pep. Kev: the issue is not that you think it would or not
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08:20:03 Guus I understand that people want to have the numbers to form their own opinion.
08:20:23 Guus also, that might be a motivation to more actively attract funds.
08:20:38 pep. Yes
08:20:42 pep. To both
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08:22:33 Guus Kev also, I'm not sure if we are trying to 'avoid spending' money on the Summit, other than that we're careful to not overspend / overindulge, as we recognize that we depend greatly on donations of others?
08:23:03 Seve To let money out, you want to make sure money will be comming in.
08:23:15 Kev We seem to put a lot of emphasis on needing people to sponsor the room, the lunch, the dinner each year.
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08:24:29 Kev I think it might be hard to justify asking for all that sponsorship for the Summit, if the XSF is giving out significant amounts to run other, less well attended and core, events.
08:25:01 Guus Kev I'm seeing that as us resorting to measures as we're doing a poor job of getting 'regular' / year round sponsors.
08:25:15 Kev Yes, I agree with that.
08:25:16 Guus Kev right, now I see your point
08:25:33 Guus and I agree.
08:27:43 Kev If we had buckets of cash, arranging more 'minor' events would seem like a good use of it. We just don't.
08:29:25 Guus Opening the financials might allow others to come to the same conclusion.
08:29:38 Guus (I almost typed 'collusion' there, I'm following the US news to closely)
08:30:26 pep. Kev: even if that might be true, that's not an argument against revealing financials
08:30:45 Kev No, which is why I didn't understand why Board were putting roadblocks in the way of doing so.
08:30:49 Guus I don't think he ever made the argument to not reveal financials Pep?
08:31:19 Guus I don't think board is putting in roadblocks, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion
08:31:54 pep. Guus: ah ok that's how I understood it
08:31:56 Kev I thought "Oh, we can't just release them from now on, we have to keep them hidden until we can release a full history" was where it was.
08:32:00 Kev Which I think is pointless.
08:32:01 Guus we're basically debating: "should we release financials for the current year only, or also venture further down in the financial history?"
08:33:27 Guus None in board argued to keep things hidden
08:33:33 pep. I'd like to have the full history in the long run, but I'm happy with the current year as a start, better than nothing and that can already help
08:34:30 Guus board being ineffective to come to a decision on wether to release current year only, or more history might have perceived as such. But, to be fair to board, I think they only discussed it once, in a meeting that was already running over time.
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08:36:05 Daniel we seem to have at least 3 platinum sponsors? (given they have 'a page on the xsf') site. that's 30k
08:36:27 Daniel that doesn’t seem like we are super tight on cash
08:36:38 Daniel unless i don’t understand how expensive the summit is
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08:36:55 Daniel which is why i would like to the the numbers at least for one year
08:36:57 Guus more reasons to disclose those financials.
08:37:24 Daniel i don’t distrust people or anything. that's why for me 2018 would be fine
08:37:33 Daniel because i reckon all years will be similar
08:37:42 Guus I'll try to push board to address this in todays meeting, but as you might have read, at least three members are, at best, attending from mobile devices.
08:38:11 Daniel also we have another 2-4k coming in from gsco?
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08:42:38 Guus Unsure - I don't wnat to speculate.
08:43:02 Guus instead, I'll try to facilitate board coming to a conclusion on the publication of financials.
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08:45:20 Daniel > Unsure - I don't wnat to speculate. Of course. Me neither. But that's what people will do if they can do quick math on one hand with the sponsors that are visible on the page and on the other hand have Kev saying that we don't even have enough money to pay for summit. But yes thank you Guus for following up with board on that
08:46:33 Guus I think I have not disagreed with anyone here, other than that i don't believe that board is putting up hurdles for making financials public, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion on this.
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08:48:00 Guus (Disclaimer for the log files: I currently serve on the Board)
08:48:56 Kev Ok, I'm sorry if I was being unfair with the barriers comment.
08:49:27 Kev It seemed to me there was a trivial decision to make (release for now on) that could be +1d in seconds, and then a more complicated second question that didn't need to block the first of asking Peter to reconstruct past records.
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08:53:39 Guus Kev, I think board didn't do an efficient job in discussing the topic, which bogged down everything. We should simply kick it in gear again, and finish the one discussion that we had, be done with it.
08:54:31 Guus And I can understand how inactivity is easily misjudged as 'putting up hurdles'
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08:58:02 edhelas https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=113dde3cc7ce7284&tk=1dnufmkih40kn801&from=serp&vjs=3
08:58:09 edhelas Facebook Portal is built using XMPP ?!
09:00:28 edhelas ah no it's in the prefered qualifications
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09:47:49 pep. Maybe we could ask them officially to disclaim and, oh and also drop a few dollars :-°
09:48:23 Guus pep. go for it
09:48:34 pep. I mean "The XSF"
09:49:32 Guus The XSF isn't a magical entity that out of itself produces questions 😃
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09:49:39 pep. too bad
09:49:42 Guus do you want to draft something, maybe find a lead that we can contact?
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09:50:47 pep. I have unfortunately very little writing/communications skills (if it wasn't obvious enough will all I write here) :x
09:51:26 pep. Unless you're happy with my sentence above
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09:53:44 Guus Very happy.
09:53:56 pep. "Hey facebook. Give us monies"
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09:55:06 Guus Excellent. Now please find the right person at Facebook to send this to.
09:55:38 pep. support@
09:55:40 Guus We then have a concrete proposal, that the XSF can debate/improve upon.
09:55:43 pep. postmaster@
09:56:26 pep. looking for something, but I doubt this kind of information is publicly displayed anyway.
09:56:40 pep. Having connections would certainly help a bit here
09:57:02 Guus My first feedback would be: "it's my estimation that this proposal has little chance of success. Please improve it before sending it" 😉
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09:57:24 pep. That I could have guessed myself :)
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09:58:57 pep. Can we not get somebody to do that? As in, we have money, can we not spend money to get more money? That's usually how it works right.
10:00:08 pep. We still need to find a point of contact. How many members do we have, they can be useful sometimes, maybe somebody knows something or someone that knows someone else
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10:09:09 Guus https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html
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10:13:39 pep. That was rhetorical
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10:57:12 lskdjf > we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past. Guus, I'd be interested in the extend to which this happened. Also, are there plans to still invoice the amount or has that already been done? To my (little) understanding of contracts, those companies would still legally be required to pay and the XSF already did their part (displaying the companies as sponsors)
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11:00:42 Guus I don't know exactly. Also, I don't think we should pressurize companies in paying things after we slipped up. That's likely to ensure no future sponsorships will happen.
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11:02:36 larma Guus, if they are not paying, what are the sponsors good for?
11:04:37 Guus from what I understand, it's us not invoicing some of them, not them not paying invoices
11:04:51 Guus Also, this was quite a while ago, and was addressed.
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11:10:08 larma So those that were not invoiced in the past are invoiced now? Didn't they ask why there were not invoiced before? Was that an actual board decision to not invoice them delayed or just continued laziness?
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11:13:05 Guus From what I recall, this involved sponsors where it was ambiguous if they'd silently extended their sponsorship with another year. Since this became known, we've purged the list of sponsors. Those that are still a sponsor, are invoiced. To my knowledge, there's no issue with payment.
11:14:09 Guus (I've not actually checked the latter, but I have no indications that something is amiss in that respect)
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11:18:40 larma So the actual problem wasn't sponsors not being invoiced but sponsors not being removed from the sponsor list after they were no longer a sponsor?
11:19:58 Guus a bit of both, probably.
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11:20:53 Guus If we'd engaged them, they might have remained a sponsor for a few more years. SOme of the sponsors that we removed ceased to exist, so there's no point in following up with them.
11:21:04 Guus (as in, company out of business)
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11:28:54 larma makes sense 🙂
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11:54:31 larma Guus, looking through archives: ProcessOne is a sponsor since 2015 (excluding May-July 2019), Tigase since end of 2016. Both of them seemingly expressed they want to be a sponsor in 2019. Was any of the two not invoiced for their sponsorship since they began being a sponsor (2015 or 2016 respectively)?
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12:52:26 Guus I don't know the details, not can I immediately find out.
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13:30:38 Seve 😃
13:31:14 Guus hello!
13:31:20 nyco Board?
13:31:20 Guus Board meeting time
13:31:32 Guus I'm seeing three
13:31:46 Seve 👆✌
13:31:51 Guus this morning, several people warned that they'd be on mobile, at best.
13:31:57 MattJ o/
13:32:00 nyco I'm on a customer meeting, I'll follow with difficulties
13:32:12 Guus bangs gavel
13:32:44 Guus Welcome at this edition of the XSF Board weekly meeting.
13:33:03 Guus as usual, the agenda is driven by what's on our Trello board: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
13:33:06 nyco Previoulsy on "Board Meetings"... :)
13:33:16 Guus 1. Role call
13:33:16 Seve :D
13:33:31 Seve Greetings 🎩
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13:33:35 Guus I've seen everyone but ralphm (who this morning warned that he might not be available)
13:33:45 Guus mentioning him in the hope he'll pop in...
13:34:01 Guus While we wait: does anyone want to add something to the agenda?
13:34:16 Seve Not me, thank you
13:34:30 MattJ Nor me
13:34:33 Guus This morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first.
13:35:06 nyco I couldn't find time to read the thread, sorry
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13:35:16 Guus 2. Minute taker
13:35:28 Guus Would someone from the floor be so kind as to compose minutes?
13:36:06 Guus ah, i forgot: last time, we discussed doing this live-ish, right?
13:36:22 Guus as most of us are either on mobile, or busy, I"m thinking that's not feasible today?
13:36:28 nyco right, I will propose a process, plus the tools for this
13:36:46 Guus so for today, we could really use a minute taker, to not have to depend on chat logs
13:36:49 nyco agree, mostly desktop solution
13:36:51 Guus eyes the room
13:36:53 Seve Today is not a good day for that due to mobiles :) but we can draft something out together after, checking the logs
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13:37:44 Guus sadly, no volunteers. If someone would like to do this retroactively, please.
13:37:51 Guus In the interest of time, I'm continuing.
13:38:01 Guus 3. Publicize XSF Financials.
13:38:39 MattJ +1 ;)
13:38:41 Guus Does someone want to comment on my earlier email?
13:38:51 Seve > +1 ;) Nice
13:39:10 nyco I'll read the thread before voting
13:39:14 MattJ As you and Seve already observed, we were all already in agreement about publication
13:39:17 nyco off meeting
13:39:42 MattJ There was just the matter of whether we would ask Peter to go through his paper archives for historical stuff
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13:40:09 Guus Ok, I motion that we ask our Treasurer to make prepare for publication of a summary of XSF financials, to be published on the XMPP.org website, for the current fiscal year, as well as future years.
13:40:16 MattJ +1
13:40:22 Seve +1
13:40:26 Guus +1
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13:40:51 stpeter Yep, I can do that.
13:41:04 Guus I will - right, stpeter has been informed 🙂
13:41:10 MattJ :)
13:41:24 stpeter It will take me a few weeks, though.
13:41:34 Guus while we have you - there was a debate last time, that revolved around us asking you to do this for past years
13:42:26 Guus I don't think anyone expects this overnight, I'm fine with a few weeks (for the most recent data only)
13:43:26 stpeter The past years can be done, too. We once had this information on the website (several websites ago!), so the wayback machine could perhaps help us. But in any case I have all the information, I just need to compile it again.
13:43:40 Guus There was an argument where people felt it unfair/unneeded to do this for past years, while others (well, me), suggested that it'd be helpful to have, and well, since you offered...
13:44:47 Guus Is the amount of work involved significantly more, after you did the first year?
13:45:12 Guus alternatively, we could circle back to this after you did the the most recent stuff only
13:45:29 Daniel If you decide to publish all can we prioritize 2018+current over 20 years of history
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13:46:12 Guus I've seen history on the website before, so I'm assuming that a large part of it is simply scraping old data?
13:46:55 Guus (others, like myself, can help with that)
13:48:18 Guus stpeter ?
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13:49:22 Guus We might have lost him. I think we can agree to have at least the most recent data. Let's circle back to having historical data too in a future meeting.
13:49:39 stpeter I'm not sure where on the site we used to have this information. It's possible I have it all on my computer, but I don't have time to look right now because I need to take my wife to the airport soon.
13:50:07 stpeter (By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)
13:50:18 stpeter But prioritizing recent years makes sense.
13:50:26 Guus understood. If we can at least a commitment that somewhere in the next few weeks we'll publish the most recent data, that'd be good.
13:50:39 stpeter Sure thing!
13:50:45 Guus I'll take anything else as a bonus. I'd be happy to help you scrape stuff
13:51:01 Guus Safe travels to your wife.
13:51:14 stpeter I'll visit the wayback machine over the weekend.
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13:51:23 Guus thanks!
13:51:29 Guus 4. Commitment for weeks ahead: Review of Roadmap page
13:51:47 Guus Ralphs icon is with that, on Trello
13:52:18 Guus We discussed this earlier, but I'm unsure what the current state or action is
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13:53:10 Guus crickets.
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13:53:11 stpeter (We might also have the relevant files on an XSF machine, will check there too.)
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13:53:19 Guus let's park this for when Ralph is back
13:53:25 Seve Ralph mentioned he would work on a list of possible topics for the Roadmap
13:53:35 Guus 5. Call for action: find candidates for the upcoming elections
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13:53:46 Guus Did we send out stuff through our comm channels?
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13:54:02 Guus I've not seen anything, but I've been away for a few days too.
13:54:20 Seve I'm not aware, apart from the emails sent out by Alex
13:54:29 Guus nyco do you happen to know?
13:55:25 Guus Alas, we lost him to that meeting he warned us about
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13:55:53 Guus Does anyone have concrete plans to address this?
13:55:59 Guus Have people in mind?
13:56:34 Guus The current list of candidates is short: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2019
13:56:42 Guus Especially for board
13:56:55 Guus err, council, sorry.
13:57:28 Seve I don't know of any person that could fit or be interested
13:57:55 Seve We can tweet about it
13:58:03 Guus Shall we draft an open invitation to be posted on our blog, and/or twitter?
13:58:36 MattJ sgtm
13:58:56 MattJ It would also make it easier for those of us in the community to link potential candidates to
13:59:15 MattJ (which implies it would be good for such a post to have an overview of responsibilities)
13:59:16 Guus Yeah. We could take Alex's default text as a template - I'd love to expand on it a little though
13:59:36 Guus Yeah, that sounds good MattJ
14:00:06 Guus Does anyone have a concrete text in mind, or shall I draft a suggestion?
14:00:24 MattJ I don't, but happy to review a draft
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14:00:53 Guus ok
14:01:00 Guus As it's time
14:01:08 Guus 6 AOB
14:01:11 Guus Anyone?
14:01:20 Seve None
14:01:33 MattJ None
14:01:42 Guus If I'm not mistaking, DST switchover is upon us, this weekend. Board members are all in the same switchover region, but others might be affected
14:01:53 Guus (just in case you're in the US and REALLY want to be here for the next meeting?)
14:02:04 Guus 7. Date/Time of next
14:02:05 Guus +1w
14:02:19 Seve All good!
14:02:29 Guus <the end>
14:02:32 Guus bangs gavel
14:02:35 Guus Thanks
14:02:48 MattJ Thanks Guus
14:03:00 Seve Thank you Guus
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14:13:55 Guus MattJ draft sent by mail
14:14:07 Guus MattJ _rough_ draft sent by mail
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14:15:35 pep. > Guus> This morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first. on board@ that's not public?
14:17:37 MattJ Correct
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14:18:23 MattJ I don't believe it contained anything that wasn't discussed in the room today or in previous meetings
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14:26:13 larma financial summary 2001-mid 2008: https://web.archive.org/web/20150315021548/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/
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14:32:09 Guus Thanks larma / ping stpeter
14:32:12 stpeter larma: thanks for that!
14:33:02 pep. stpeter, "(By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)"
14:33:04 pep. What did this mean
14:33:10 pep. (I'm compiling minutes)
14:33:44 Guus Thanks pep.
14:34:39 Guus I read that as that he might have all data that he compiled earlier still on his computer somehwere, but that he didn't compile data from all available rough data
14:34:41 stpeter We have records for the early years. I will create financial summaries for the recent years, starting from 2019, but I will need to fill in 2008-2018 because https://web.archive.org/web/20150315021548/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/ indicates that I last did this in 2008.
14:35:03 stpeter (Well, we have *records* for all the years, but they're in a fireproof safe at my house.)
14:35:19 pep. stpeter, I see
14:35:25 pep. So it'll just take time but data is present
14:35:32 pep. somewhere
14:36:55 stpeter Yes, the data just needs to be compiled - i.e., I need to look at all the expense reports and add things up. Not that hard.
14:37:08 pep. k
14:38:02 stpeter OK, now I actually need to go, I will check in later.
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14:49:05 pep. Minutes sent.
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15:13:59 Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/626
15:15:14 pep. "only a few hours a week" hmm maybe this should be removed
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15:16:47 Guus I'm out for the day
15:17:00 Guus Or at least a couple of hours
15:17:13 Guus Please leave comments in the PR
15:17:16 pep. k
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19:30:00 MattJ What types of invites do clients currently use with MUC? Do any clients do direct invitations?
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19:34:55 flow larma, FYI, we already depend on the unicode standard for our wire format, see also the most recent discussion at the IETF's XMPP WG mailing list
19:36:23 flow also, I think that if you go for bytes or codepoints than sender (and ideally also recipient) should normalize the unicode string frist
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19:41:37 lovetox yes gajim in some circumstances
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19:42:11 Zash MattJ: I found a handful of mediated invites in my archive, no direct.
19:42:15 lovetox about the sticker discussion
19:42:34 lovetox byte seems very weird, i have to decode the stanza from the wire
19:42:40 lovetox then get the body data
19:43:03 lovetox then reencode it? split it up into parts
19:43:05 Zash I (posted to the list that I) would go for codepoints.
19:43:10 lovetox decode the single parts again
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19:43:19 Zash Everything except JavaScript should be able to deal with that.
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19:45:09 Zash Wait, what
19:45:39 Zash Those were using XEP-0249 syntax but were sent from MUCs
19:46:16 lovetox also whole discussion sounds like someone *wants* to find problems
19:46:47 Zash Human language is complicated.
19:47:09 flow Human is complicated
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19:47:27 lovetox lets just use codepoints and be finished with it, and questions like what if a graphem consists of mutliple codepoints and reference links into it
19:47:50 lovetox yeah what then? nothing then, i apply bold to that and if what comes out is garbage
19:48:00 lovetox i open a issue with the client that sent me that garbage
19:48:04 lovetox but thats about it
19:48:14 Zash yeah
19:48:26 Zash Bugs will probably happen regardless
19:48:32 flow I am undecided between codepoints and extended grapheme clusters, but I believe that if we use codepoints we should normalize the strings
19:49:44 Zash Alternatively, pick a magic marker code point and replace that.
19:49:47 flow cause otherwhise the codepoints may be different. Although this may be unlikely, I wouldn't risk it and I believe most platforms provide unicode normalization APIs, so it should be easy
19:49:56 Zash or bring back xhtml-im and use <img>
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19:50:37 flow the rumors that xhtml-im is gone and needs to be brought back are exaggerated ;)
19:52:02 Zash `git revert 48593ca5b8659553c02ce7b9e12fa7660436d9bc 4c5db548251a91d8e6c55b1add84f92765d172a3` and pretend nothing happened
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20:41:11 larma flow, I don't think the IETF mailing list issue is a real issue. Basically it says: PRECIS doesn't define the Unicode version to be used, so we are fucked. It's true that this is an issue in the standard, but also it shouldn't really matter in practice as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you. The issue of counting characters is much more imminent and will have real impact if not handled properly *now*. People are already using markup/reference XEP and do basically random stuff when there is bodys multi codepoint graphemes in place. Regarding normalizing: Clients probably should normalize before sending (and before determining markup/reference positions), however normalizing is Unicode version specific behavior, so a second normalizing by a different entity (using a different unicode version) might end up and further changes and thus this entity would be required to update the markup/reference positions. So it's probably better to just not do it when receiving or forwarding if you don't want to deal with that. Also note that normalizing might actually break things if the sender uses a newer unicode version for normalization.
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20:58:13 moparisthebest > as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you.
20:58:21 moparisthebest you mean the thing you *shouldn't* do ? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-03
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20:58:40 Zash aka draft-postel-was-wrong or somesuch
20:58:43 moparisthebest I liked the original working title better hehe https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong
20:59:12 moparisthebest +1 to Zash for having the best memory
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21:04:09 flow larma, I don't think we are fucked (mostly because I think what PRECIS does is sensible). All we need is agility regarding the supported Unicode standard in runtimes or libraries. In fact, chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)
21:04:34 flow And what the draft-iab-protocol-maintenance I-D says
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21:06:12 Zash Wait didn't that get RFC'd?
21:06:25 Zash Huh, not yet I guess
21:06:27 larma flow, sure for sending this is a sane thing to do, but for receiving you should be more liberal. After all your cannot ensure OS and/or client are of recent version.
21:07:08 Zash be liberal or fail loudly
21:07:15 Zash but also don't fail.
21:08:57 moparisthebest > chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)
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21:09:07 moparisthebest Any Redhat ever might surprise you!
21:09:34 Zash Mmmmmmmm Enterprise
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21:14:16 flow moparisthebest, at least fedora has a unicode-ucd
21:16:17 flow larma, I am not sure if you can be liberal, or, at least, if it wouldn't cause more problems in the long run. Being liberal in what to accept often sounds like a nice easy solution, but it sometimes causes unforeseen issues and in general causes the issues described in the I-D
21:16:48 Zash Maybe the real answer is "it depends"
21:16:53 flow as so often
21:17:09 moparisthebest I don't know about unicode, but up to date redhat 7 has a curl that was released Feb 6 2013, and up to date still supported redhat 6 has a curl that was released in Nov 4 2009
21:17:22 moparisthebest unicode is surely just as bad if not worse
21:17:26 flow What implementations could do is to use an old unicode version when verifying and "generating" JIDs, to ensure maximum interoperability
21:17:42 Zash strict mode when creating users and such?
21:17:54 moparisthebest wouldn't that disallow things allowed by newer unicode versions?
21:18:14 Zash yes, that's the point
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21:18:27 flow moparisthebest, yes, but if you prevent the user from even generating such JIDs you achieve maximum interop
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21:18:52 moparisthebest to ensure maximum interoperability maybe impls should just limit everyone to ASCII
21:19:25 flow wanna create an new MUC? make sure to use unicode 6.0 (or so) to prepare and enforce the JID that you send to the MUC service
21:19:44 Zash and now you're on the unicode upgrade threadmill! enjoy
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21:19:59 Zash them users gonna want those new codepoints, better upgrade
21:20:09 flow it's software and protocols, we are always in the upgrade threadmill
21:20:30 Zash Is CentOS 6 dead yet?
21:21:08 moparisthebest I don't think so, redhat 6 isn't
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21:56:36 Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/ilURA86kFBb66daT/image.png
21:58:11 Zash There was something about ligatures but I don't remember the exact details.
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22:10:53 larma Zash, ligatures are a font only thing that affects displaying but not anything the toolkit is doing, so you can still select half of a ligature. Depending on toolkit, the selecting thing can already change how ligatures are displayed. I don't remember which, but I know I have once seen a messenger that manually rendered the cursor in the input field and this broke ligatures if the cursor was between the two characters that make up a ligature. And this actually can affect the two chars length (if they are shorter as a ligature) which could cause the multiline text field to wrap differently. Long story short: moving the cursor through the text field would actually cause the text in it to jump around.
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