pep.ralphm, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/846 can this be added to the agenda. It should only be editor land it's a change in the schema but editors prefer to be on the safe side
pep.(I couldn't add stuff on the trello board)
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ralphmYeah, I don't think this requires a board vote. Please make it so.
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MattJralphm, I probably won't make the meeting later as I'll be travelling, but if I do it'll be mobile-only
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Severalphm, MattJ, I'm unfortunately in the same situation today :(
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ralphmMe too
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GuusNyco and me will hold the fortress!
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DanielCan Board follow up on the financial report? Apparently this was discussed at the end of last month (no minutes from that meeting and I was driving at the time) but never acted upon?
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GuusDaniel yes. It's still on our agenda.
Guusfrom what I recall, we ended up debating if we'd like Peter to provide data from past years.
DanielFrom the looks of it there hasn't been a real conclusion and to my knowledge it hasn't been brought up again at other meetings. (despite 'still being on the agenda') - can I ask for it to be put on the real agenda?
DanielIf Board wants my input publishing current data (2018) is fine for now. And if it looks fishy people can ask for more?
GuusIt did not ever leave the agenda - it has been on my mind every meeting, but we simply didn't get around to doing it. One thing that I noted in the last meeting was that I think it'd be good to find a way to be more efficient in those meetings.
DanielIf he really has that stuff on paper publishing all of it seems a bit much. If it were just upload uploading some spreadsheet I'd be with you in asking for all of it
GuusDaniel I'm curious why you bring this up. I have no problem with us releasing this information, but I personally have little interest in it (other than that I'd want to prevent us from being regarded as secretive / non-open). What's your motivation?
DanielI brought it up *now* because today is board meeting and I had a minute of spare time to ask for it. It has been on my mind for a bit longer.
I (as a scam member) would start to spend some money and I would like to see how much money we have, how much new money is coming in and what things we spend money on in the past. Just to get a grasp on what kind of money I'd be OK asking for
DanielI've also heard rumors that we are not very good at actually collecting money from our sponsors
Daniel(sending invoices)
Daniel*would like to start spending
GuusDaniel for SCAM, there's a yearly budget of 1000 USD that we can spend.
DanielRight. I have however no grasp if this is a fair amount
DanielLike what part of the annual budget is that
Guusand yes, we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past. That has even been discussed in this room, nothing about that is 'rumor' as far as I know. 🙂
GuusFair questions.
GuusLike I said, the financial reporting never was on a backburner, even if we didn't get around to handle it in the last few meetings.
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Guusas for SCAM's budget - I'm not sure if we can, or should, qualify 'fair'. I'd have to check, but I think we've not spent any of that budget this year
Guus(maybe some around the summit/fosdem, but that might also have come from last years budget)
Guusso maybe it's more a question of: what do you want to do with the budget?
Guus(And if we want to spend more than the budget, we can take that to board)
pep.Guus, Daniel and I didn't know about it until not so long ago :p
Guus"it" ?
pep.The budget
pep.SCAM's
GuusOk. Well, there is. 🙂
GuusI've mentioned it just now in the SCAM MUC
Daniel(discussing this here so other non scam people can see this as well)
DanielYeah I've known about the scam budget for a couple of months /weeks now. That's fine
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DanielI could imagine myself asking scam to pay for sprint venues. We don't always have hacker spaces or something in the cities we want to do sprints in. And/or hackerspaces are not always ideal locations for reasons.
Now if I were to ask for rent that can very quickly exceed the budget of 1k. However before I do I just want to know how much money for example 1k rent for 3 days is to the xsf
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DanielAnd then decide if I can justify asking for that
Guusfwiw, the SCAM budget was requested as a means to not have to go to board for every expense, which (as you've found) can take a long time. It was not intended as any kind of hard limit that SCAM could spend.
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DanielYeah I see the scam budget paying for day to day items such as merch and drinks at sprints
Guusus wanting to spend numbers like that does warrant board involvement, I think.
DanielBut not for the entire sprint
Guusright
DanielThat's fine asking board
DanielI just don't know if it is a reasonable ask
Guusbut I understand your motivation to see the board financials.
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DanielAnd also even if Board decides people need to be able to understand the decision making
KevI'd think of it in terms of the Summit, which is the most important XSF-arranged event of the year, which we usually try to get sponsorship for all of and the budget comes in at less than that much usually (I think).
KevSo I'd have thought there'd need to be a strong argument for why it was valuable to the XSF for spending that sort of amount.
GuusIt'd be nice to decouple budget from one important event - as such coupling makes it harder for other important events to be developed.
KevMy point is that if we try to avoid spending much on the most important event we arrange, spending more on other events would need some significant justification. In my view.
GuusKev, there's an argument to be made that the sprints serve a good purpose - but I agree that for much money to be spend, we need to discuss that further.
pep.Also, we can do many more events :)
pep.We just don't have any idea if financials would even allow for this
KevThey wouldn't, I think. We don't bring in that much from sponsorship, unless things have changed since I last remember.
pep.I agree about all what Daniel said above fwiw
pep.Kev: the issue is not that you think it would or not
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GuusI understand that people want to have the numbers to form their own opinion.
Guusalso, that might be a motivation to more actively attract funds.
pep.Yes
pep.To both
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GuusKev also, I'm not sure if we are trying to 'avoid spending' money on the Summit, other than that we're careful to not overspend / overindulge, as we recognize that we depend greatly on donations of others?
SeveTo let money out, you want to make sure money will be comming in.
KevWe seem to put a lot of emphasis on needing people to sponsor the room, the lunch, the dinner each year.
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KevI think it might be hard to justify asking for all that sponsorship for the Summit, if the XSF is giving out significant amounts to run other, less well attended and core, events.
GuusKev I'm seeing that as us resorting to measures as we're doing a poor job of getting 'regular' / year round sponsors.
KevYes, I agree with that.
GuusKev right, now I see your point
Guusand I agree.
KevIf we had buckets of cash, arranging more 'minor' events would seem like a good use of it. We just don't.
GuusOpening the financials might allow others to come to the same conclusion.
Guus(I almost typed 'collusion' there, I'm following the US news to closely)
pep.Kev: even if that might be true, that's not an argument against revealing financials
KevNo, which is why I didn't understand why Board were putting roadblocks in the way of doing so.
GuusI don't think he ever made the argument to not reveal financials Pep?
GuusI don't think board is putting in roadblocks, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion
pep.Guus: ah ok that's how I understood it
KevI thought "Oh, we can't just release them from now on, we have to keep them hidden until we can release a full history" was where it was.
KevWhich I think is pointless.
Guuswe're basically debating: "should we release financials for the current year only, or also venture further down in the financial history?"
GuusNone in board argued to keep things hidden
pep.I'd like to have the full history in the long run, but I'm happy with the current year as a start, better than nothing and that can already help
Guusboard being ineffective to come to a decision on wether to release current year only, or more history might have perceived as such. But, to be fair to board, I think they only discussed it once, in a meeting that was already running over time.
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Danielwe seem to have at least 3 platinum sponsors? (given they have 'a page on the xsf') site. that's 30k
Danielthat doesn’t seem like we are super tight on cash
Danielunless i don’t understand how expensive the summit is
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Danielwhich is why i would like to the the numbers at least for one year
Guusmore reasons to disclose those financials.
Danieli don’t distrust people or anything. that's why for me 2018 would be fine
Danielbecause i reckon all years will be similar
GuusI'll try to push board to address this in todays meeting, but as you might have read, at least three members are, at best, attending from mobile devices.
Danielalso we have another 2-4k coming in from gsco?
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GuusUnsure - I don't wnat to speculate.
Guusinstead, I'll try to facilitate board coming to a conclusion on the publication of financials.
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Daniel> Unsure - I don't wnat to speculate.
Of course. Me neither. But that's what people will do if they can do quick math on one hand with the sponsors that are visible on the page and on the other hand have Kev saying that we don't even have enough money to pay for summit.
But yes thank you Guus for following up with board on that
GuusI think I have not disagreed with anyone here, other than that i don't believe that board is putting up hurdles for making financials public, other than that they're slow to come to a conclusion on this.
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Guus(Disclaimer for the log files: I currently serve on the Board)
KevOk, I'm sorry if I was being unfair with the barriers comment.
KevIt seemed to me there was a trivial decision to make (release for now on) that could be +1d in seconds, and then a more complicated second question that didn't need to block the first of asking Peter to reconstruct past records.
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GuusKev, I think board didn't do an efficient job in discussing the topic, which bogged down everything. We should simply kick it in gear again, and finish the one discussion that we had, be done with it.
GuusAnd I can understand how inactivity is easily misjudged as 'putting up hurdles'
pep.Maybe we could ask them officially to disclaim and, oh and also drop a few dollars :-°
Guuspep. go for it
pep.I mean "The XSF"
GuusThe XSF isn't a magical entity that out of itself produces questions 😃
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pep.too bad
Guusdo you want to draft something, maybe find a lead that we can contact?
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pep.I have unfortunately very little writing/communications skills (if it wasn't obvious enough will all I write here) :x
pep.Unless you're happy with my sentence above
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GuusVery happy.
pep."Hey facebook. Give us monies"
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GuusExcellent. Now please find the right person at Facebook to send this to.
pep.support@
GuusWe then have a concrete proposal, that the XSF can debate/improve upon.
pep.postmaster@
pep.looking for something, but I doubt this kind of information is publicly displayed anyway.
pep.Having connections would certainly help a bit here
GuusMy first feedback would be: "it's my estimation that this proposal has little chance of success. Please improve it before sending it" 😉
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pep.That I could have guessed myself :)
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pep.Can we not get somebody to do that? As in, we have money, can we not spend money to get more money? That's usually how it works right.
pep.We still need to find a point of contact. How many members do we have, they can be useful sometimes, maybe somebody knows something or someone that knows someone else
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Guushttps://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html
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pep.That was rhetorical
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lskdjf> we've dropped the ball on doing invoicing / contacting sponsors in the past.
Guus, I'd be interested in the extend to which this happened. Also, are there plans to still invoice the amount or has that already been done? To my (little) understanding of contracts, those companies would still legally be required to pay and the XSF already did their part (displaying the companies as sponsors)
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GuusI don't know exactly. Also, I don't think we should pressurize companies in paying things after we slipped up. That's likely to ensure no future sponsorships will happen.
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larmaGuus, if they are not paying, what are the sponsors good for?
Guusfrom what I understand, it's us not invoicing some of them, not them not paying invoices
GuusAlso, this was quite a while ago, and was addressed.
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larmaSo those that were not invoiced in the past are invoiced now? Didn't they ask why there were not invoiced before? Was that an actual board decision to not invoice them delayed or just continued laziness?
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GuusFrom what I recall, this involved sponsors where it was ambiguous if they'd silently extended their sponsorship with another year. Since this became known, we've purged the list of sponsors. Those that are still a sponsor, are invoiced. To my knowledge, there's no issue with payment.
Guus(I've not actually checked the latter, but I have no indications that something is amiss in that respect)
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larmaSo the actual problem wasn't sponsors not being invoiced but sponsors not being removed from the sponsor list after they were no longer a sponsor?
Guusa bit of both, probably.
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GuusIf we'd engaged them, they might have remained a sponsor for a few more years. SOme of the sponsors that we removed ceased to exist, so there's no point in following up with them.
Guus(as in, company out of business)
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larmamakes sense 🙂
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larmaGuus, looking through archives: ProcessOne is a sponsor since 2015 (excluding May-July 2019), Tigase since end of 2016. Both of them seemingly expressed they want to be a sponsor in 2019. Was any of the two not invoiced for their sponsorship since they began being a sponsor (2015 or 2016 respectively)?
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GuusI don't know the details, not can I immediately find out.
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Seve😃
Guushello!
nycoBoard?
GuusBoard meeting time
GuusI'm seeing three
Seve👆✌
Guusthis morning, several people warned that they'd be on mobile, at best.
MattJo/
nycoI'm on a customer meeting, I'll follow with difficulties
Guusbangs gavel
GuusWelcome at this edition of the XSF Board weekly meeting.
Guusas usual, the agenda is driven by what's on our Trello board: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
nycoPrevioulsy on "Board Meetings"... :)
Guus1. Role call
Seve:D
SeveGreetings 🎩
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GuusI've seen everyone but ralphm (who this morning warned that he might not be available)
Guusmentioning him in the hope he'll pop in...
GuusWhile we wait: does anyone want to add something to the agenda?
SeveNot me, thank you
MattJNor me
GuusThis morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first.
nycoI couldn't find time to read the thread, sorry
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Guus2. Minute taker
GuusWould someone from the floor be so kind as to compose minutes?
Guusah, i forgot: last time, we discussed doing this live-ish, right?
Guusas most of us are either on mobile, or busy, I"m thinking that's not feasible today?
nycoright, I will propose a process, plus the tools for this
Guusso for today, we could really use a minute taker, to not have to depend on chat logs
nycoagree, mostly desktop solution
Guuseyes the room
SeveToday is not a good day for that due to mobiles :) but we can draft something out together after, checking the logs
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Guussadly, no volunteers. If someone would like to do this retroactively, please.
GuusIn the interest of time, I'm continuing.
Guus3. Publicize XSF Financials.
MattJ+1 ;)
GuusDoes someone want to comment on my earlier email?
Seve> +1 ;)
Nice
nycoI'll read the thread before voting
MattJAs you and Seve already observed, we were all already in agreement about publication
nycooff meeting
MattJThere was just the matter of whether we would ask Peter to go through his paper archives for historical stuff
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GuusOk, I motion that we ask our Treasurer to make prepare for publication of a summary of XSF financials, to be published on the XMPP.org website, for the current fiscal year, as well as future years.
MattJ+1
Seve+1
Guus+1
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stpeterYep, I can do that.
GuusI will - right, stpeter has been informed 🙂
MattJ:)
stpeterIt will take me a few weeks, though.
Guuswhile we have you - there was a debate last time, that revolved around us asking you to do this for past years
GuusI don't think anyone expects this overnight, I'm fine with a few weeks (for the most recent data only)
stpeterThe past years can be done, too. We once had this information on the website (several websites ago!), so the wayback machine could perhaps help us. But in any case I have all the information, I just need to compile it again.
GuusThere was an argument where people felt it unfair/unneeded to do this for past years, while others (well, me), suggested that it'd be helpful to have, and well, since you offered...
GuusIs the amount of work involved significantly more, after you did the first year?
Guusalternatively, we could circle back to this after you did the the most recent stuff only
DanielIf you decide to publish all can we prioritize 2018+current over 20 years of history
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GuusI've seen history on the website before, so I'm assuming that a large part of it is simply scraping old data?
Guus(others, like myself, can help with that)
Guusstpeter ?
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GuusWe might have lost him. I think we can agree to have at least the most recent data. Let's circle back to having historical data too in a future meeting.
stpeterI'm not sure where on the site we used to have this information. It's possible I have it all on my computer, but I don't have time to look right now because I need to take my wife to the airport soon.
stpeter(By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)
stpeterBut prioritizing recent years makes sense.
Guusunderstood. If we can at least a commitment that somewhere in the next few weeks we'll publish the most recent data, that'd be good.
stpeterSure thing!
GuusI'll take anything else as a bonus. I'd be happy to help you scrape stuff
GuusSafe travels to your wife.
stpeterI'll visit the wayback machine over the weekend.
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Guusthanks!
Guus4. Commitment for weeks ahead: Review of Roadmap page
GuusRalphs icon is with that, on Trello
GuusWe discussed this earlier, but I'm unsure what the current state or action is
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Guuscrickets.
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stpeter(We might also have the relevant files on an XSF machine, will check there too.)
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Guuslet's park this for when Ralph is back
SeveRalph mentioned he would work on a list of possible topics for the Roadmap
Guus5. Call for action: find candidates for the upcoming elections
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GuusDid we send out stuff through our comm channels?
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GuusI've not seen anything, but I've been away for a few days too.
SeveI'm not aware, apart from the emails sent out by Alex
Guusnyco do you happen to know?
GuusAlas, we lost him to that meeting he warned us about
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GuusDoes anyone have concrete plans to address this?
GuusHave people in mind?
GuusThe current list of candidates is short: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2019
GuusEspecially for board
Guuserr, council, sorry.
SeveI don't know of any person that could fit or be interested
SeveWe can tweet about it
GuusShall we draft an open invitation to be posted on our blog, and/or twitter?
MattJsgtm
MattJIt would also make it easier for those of us in the community to link potential candidates to
MattJ(which implies it would be good for such a post to have an overview of responsibilities)
GuusYeah. We could take Alex's default text as a template - I'd love to expand on it a little though
GuusYeah, that sounds good MattJ
GuusDoes anyone have a concrete text in mind, or shall I draft a suggestion?
MattJI don't, but happy to review a draft
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Guusok
GuusAs it's time
Guus6 AOB
GuusAnyone?
SeveNone
MattJNone
GuusIf I'm not mistaking, DST switchover is upon us, this weekend. Board members are all in the same switchover region, but others might be affected
Guus(just in case you're in the US and REALLY want to be here for the next meeting?)
Guus7. Date/Time of next
Guus+1w
SeveAll good!
Guus<the end>
Guusbangs gavel
GuusThanks
MattJThanks Guus
SeveThank you Guus
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GuusMattJ draft sent by mail
GuusMattJ _rough_ draft sent by mail
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pep.> Guus> This morning, I've emailed about one of the items (financials) - I'd suggest we discuss that first.
on board@ that's not public?
MattJCorrect
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MattJI don't believe it contained anything that wasn't discussed in the room today or in previous meetings
pep.stpeter, "(By "all" I mean the earlier years - there will be a gap in the middle there somewhere.)"
pep.What did this mean
pep.(I'm compiling minutes)
GuusThanks pep.
GuusI read that as that he might have all data that he compiled earlier still on his computer somehwere, but that he didn't compile data from all available rough data
stpeterWe have records for the early years. I will create financial summaries for the recent years, starting from 2019, but I will need to fill in 2008-2018 because https://web.archive.org/web/20150315021548/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/ indicates that I last did this in 2008.
stpeter(Well, we have *records* for all the years, but they're in a fireproof safe at my house.)
pep.stpeter, I see
pep.So it'll just take time but data is present
pep.somewhere
stpeterYes, the data just needs to be compiled - i.e., I need to look at all the expense reports and add things up. Not that hard.
pep.k
stpeterOK, now I actually need to go, I will check in later.
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pep.Minutes sent.
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Guushttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/626
pep."only a few hours a week" hmm maybe this should be removed
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GuusI'm out for the day
GuusOr at least a couple of hours
GuusPlease leave comments in the PR
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MattJWhat types of invites do clients currently use with MUC? Do any clients do direct invitations?
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flowlarma, FYI, we already depend on the unicode standard for our wire format, see also the most recent discussion at the IETF's XMPP WG mailing list
flowalso, I think that if you go for bytes or codepoints than sender (and ideally also recipient) should normalize the unicode string frist
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lovetoxyes gajim in some circumstances
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ZashMattJ: I found a handful of mediated invites in my archive, no direct.
lovetoxabout the sticker discussion
lovetoxbyte seems very weird, i have to decode the stanza from the wire
lovetoxthen get the body data
lovetoxthen reencode it? split it up into parts
ZashI (posted to the list that I) would go for codepoints.
lovetoxdecode the single parts again
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ZashEverything except JavaScript should be able to deal with that.
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ZashWait, what
ZashThose were using XEP-0249 syntax but were sent from MUCs
lovetoxalso whole discussion sounds like someone *wants* to find problems
ZashHuman language is complicated.
flowHuman is complicated
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lovetoxlets just use codepoints and be finished with it, and questions like what if a graphem consists of mutliple codepoints and reference links into it
lovetoxyeah what then? nothing then, i apply bold to that and if what comes out is garbage
lovetoxi open a issue with the client that sent me that garbage
lovetoxbut thats about it
Zashyeah
ZashBugs will probably happen regardless
flowI am undecided between codepoints and extended grapheme clusters, but I believe that if we use codepoints we should normalize the strings
ZashAlternatively, pick a magic marker code point and replace that.
flowcause otherwhise the codepoints may be different. Although this may be unlikely, I wouldn't risk it and I believe most platforms provide unicode normalization APIs, so it should be easy
Zashor bring back xhtml-im and use <img>
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flowthe rumors that xhtml-im is gone and needs to be brought back are exaggerated ;)
Zash`git revert 48593ca5b8659553c02ce7b9e12fa7660436d9bc 4c5db548251a91d8e6c55b1add84f92765d172a3` and pretend nothing happened
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larmaflow, I don't think the IETF mailing list issue is a real issue. Basically it says: PRECIS doesn't define the Unicode version to be used, so we are fucked. It's true that this is an issue in the standard, but also it shouldn't really matter in practice as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you.
The issue of counting characters is much more imminent and will have real impact if not handled properly *now*. People are already using markup/reference XEP and do basically random stuff when there is bodys multi codepoint graphemes in place.
Regarding normalizing: Clients probably should normalize before sending (and before determining markup/reference positions), however normalizing is Unicode version specific behavior, so a second normalizing by a different entity (using a different unicode version) might end up and further changes and thus this entity would be required to update the markup/reference positions. So it's probably better to just not do it when receiving or forwarding if you don't want to deal with that. Also note that normalizing might actually break things if the sender uses a newer unicode version for normalization.
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moparisthebest> as long as you follow the rule of being strict on what you control and liberal what others send you.
moparisthebestyou mean the thing you *shouldn't* do ? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-03
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Zashaka draft-postel-was-wrong or somesuch
moparisthebestI liked the original working title better hehe https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong
moparisthebest+1 to Zash for having the best memory
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flowlarma, I don't think we are fucked (mostly because I think what PRECIS does is sensible). All we need is agility regarding the supported Unicode standard in runtimes or libraries. In fact, chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)
flowAnd what the draft-iab-protocol-maintenance I-D says
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ZashWait didn't that get RFC'd?
ZashHuh, not yet I guess
larmaflow, sure for sending this is a sane thing to do, but for receiving you should be more liberal. After all your cannot ensure OS and/or client are of recent version.
Zashbe liberal or fail loudly
Zashbut also don't fail.
moparisthebest> chances are high that your system has a sufficiently recent unicode database in /usr/share/unicode(-data)
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moparisthebestAny Redhat ever might surprise you!
ZashMmmmmmmm Enterprise
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flowmoparisthebest, at least fedora has a unicode-ucd
flowlarma, I am not sure if you can be liberal, or, at least, if it wouldn't cause more problems in the long run. Being liberal in what to accept often sounds like a nice easy solution, but it sometimes causes unforeseen issues and in general causes the issues described in the I-D
ZashMaybe the real answer is "it depends"
flowas so often
moparisthebestI don't know about unicode, but up to date redhat 7 has a curl that was released Feb 6 2013, and up to date still supported redhat 6 has a curl that was released in Nov 4 2009
moparisthebestunicode is surely just as bad if not worse
flowWhat implementations could do is to use an old unicode version when verifying and "generating" JIDs, to ensure maximum interoperability
Zashstrict mode when creating users and such?
moparisthebestwouldn't that disallow things allowed by newer unicode versions?
Zashyes, that's the point
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flowmoparisthebest, yes, but if you prevent the user from even generating such JIDs you achieve maximum interop
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moparisthebestto ensure maximum interoperability maybe impls should just limit everyone to ASCII
flowwanna create an new MUC? make sure to use unicode 6.0 (or so) to prepare and enforce the JID that you send to the MUC service
Zashand now you're on the unicode upgrade threadmill! enjoy
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Zashthem users gonna want those new codepoints, better upgrade
flowit's software and protocols, we are always in the upgrade threadmill
ZashThere was something about ligatures but I don't remember the exact details.
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larmaZash, ligatures are a font only thing that affects displaying but not anything the toolkit is doing, so you can still select half of a ligature. Depending on toolkit, the selecting thing can already change how ligatures are displayed.
I don't remember which, but I know I have once seen a messenger that manually rendered the cursor in the input field and this broke ligatures if the cursor was between the two characters that make up a ligature. And this actually can affect the two chars length (if they are shorter as a ligature) which could cause the multiline text field to wrap differently. Long story short: moving the cursor through the text field would actually cause the text in it to jump around.