XSF Discussion - 2019-10-27

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09:55:05 jonas’ MattJ, blurhash calculated server-side or blurhash expected to be sent from the client?
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10:11:39 Ge0rG I'd say it should be part of the SIMS
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12:25:02 MattJ jonas’: I think either works - there are some advantages to client-side (sender)
12:25:54 Ge0rG MattJ: what's the benefit of blurhash over a small BoB preview?
12:27:09 MattJ Sender controlled preview doesn't necessarily cover the NSFW case without extra work
12:27:31 Ge0rG the only difference between blurhash and preview is the resolution, right?
12:28:10 MattJ Kinda, kinda not
12:28:34 MattJ You can get away with lower resolution blurhash because of the blurring
12:28:52 MattJ Preview at the same resolution would be blocky
12:28:57 MattJ Very
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12:29:19 Ge0rG MattJ: most modern rendering algorithms will blur instead of blocking
12:29:58 MattJ All blurhash algorithms blur, regardless of image type/etc.
12:30:11 Zash All? There's more than one?
12:30:26 MattJ Implementations
12:30:55 MattJ Sorry, I have a baby in one hand and the other is multitasking between making lunch and typing
12:32:00 Ge0rG MattJ: if we add a BoB into SIMS, we surely can demand it to be blurred up to the original image resolution ;)
12:32:36 Zash And like a tiny very compressed jpeg image there
12:32:43 Zash 8x8 or smaller
12:32:53 MattJ I really don't care if you want to spec the same effect a different way that works
12:33:02 MattJ I am just trying to do stuff
12:33:49 MattJ Currently that means I am not going to get everyone in a channel to upgrade their clients to one that sends a hash, but I have a bit of influence on the server sidr
12:33:55 MattJ Currently that means I am not going to get everyone in a channel to upgrade their clients to one that sends a hash, but I have a bit of influence on the server side
12:34:18 MattJ Blurhash is well defined with multiple libraries available
12:35:35 Ge0rG JPEG is well defined with multiple libraries available ;)
12:35:58 MattJ If you can do better, I beg you to
12:36:41 Zash Reviwe progessive JPEG! :)
12:37:42 jonas’ 12:29:19 Ge0rG> MattJ: most modern rendering algorithms will blur instead of blocking Quality of blurhash isn’t comparable to linearly interpolated pixels of a low-res previow
12:38:12 Ge0rG Zash: awesome idea! make the preview image the first layer of the progressive jpeg, that way we can skip some bits on the actual transmission!
12:38:30 Ge0rG jonas’: this is exactly what I want to learn - what's the difference?
12:38:44 jonas’ https://blurha.sh/
12:38:45 jonas’ look at it
12:39:02 jonas’ technically, I think they use spherical functions or something like that and save the coefficients for those
12:39:15 jonas’ but I haven’t gotten around to look into it in more detail yet
12:39:19 Zash From when I read the spec it sounded like one block of JPEG
12:41:07 Ge0rG converting an image into an 8x8 px JPEG is a standard feature of any platform that supports JPEG images. Converting into blurha.sh... not so much
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13:36:00 MattJ The 4x3 JPEG file I made is 667 bytes compared to 28 bytes for the same image's blurhash
13:36:52 MattJ and some things display it blocky, some do blur (but so far I haven't managed to find an image viewer that does blur and also allows unlimited zoom)
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13:44:06 Daniel That's one of these moments where actually studying that stuff at university would have been helpful. Because I don't really understand what blurhash is doing
13:44:34 Daniel Need to ask my university buddies at some point
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13:55:20 edhelas I really like the idea behind blurhash, would be pleased to use it in Movim :)
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14:08:17 Ge0rG again, what's the actual benefit over a significantly downscaled picture?
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14:10:27 Zash Presumably that the "hash" is smaller.
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14:11:27 Daniel No jpeg overhead?
14:11:44 Daniel The decoding / upscalling is specified?
14:18:42 Ge0rG the jpeg overhead needs to be offset by the additional library overhead, though ;)
14:20:31 Ge0rG okay, https://github.com/woltapp/blurhash/blob/master/Kotlin/lib/src/main/java/com/wolt/blurhashkt/BlurHashDecoder.kt doesn't look like a huge overhead ;)
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14:21:29 Ge0rG > We usually decode placeholders that are 32 or even 20 pixels wide, and then let the UI layer scale them up, which is indistinguishable from decoding them at full size.
14:21:31 Ge0rG Heh.
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14:35:36 Zash Huh
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15:35:28 edhelas could be really nice to also use it for the avatars :)
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19:25:44 jonas’ I’d question the "shell-safe" base83 encoding though. the character set contains $ and * and # and { and } and [ and ]
19:25:53 jonas’ not that it matters much
19:26:10 jonas’ Daniel, they essentially do what jpeg does
19:26:24 jonas’ I’m not quite sure why the rendering is that much better though
19:26:45 jonas’ maybe because they have more bits for the few pixels
19:26:48 Zash Because it's done in JavaScript of course
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19:27:24 jonas’ ah, probably because what jpeg would normally expand to just 8x8 pixels, they expand to more pixels, and they don’t do that linearly, but they evaluate the cosine functions the DCT gave
19:27:30 jonas’ that’s why it’s smoother than upscaling a 8x8 jpeg
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20:29:56 lovetox what i dont get
20:30:10 lovetox ok there are librarys who let me get the hash from a picture
20:30:26 lovetox but i dont see one that let me get a picture from the hash
20:30:52 jonas’ note, blurhash is a misnomer
20:30:59 jonas’ it’s not a cryptographic one-way hash function
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20:31:27 jonas’ lovetox, https://github.com/halcy/blurhash-python here is an encoder and decoder thing
20:31:50 lovetox where do you see the decode?
20:32:07 jonas’ https://github.com/halcy/blurhash-python/blob/master/blurhash/blurhash.py#L77
20:33:02 lovetox hm yeah but this is some fork
20:33:07 lovetox not the original project
20:33:10 lovetox but good :)
20:33:16 jonas’ it’s linked in their readme
20:33:24 jonas’ I guess their decoders are all JS because web
20:36:23 lovetox yeah hm the original project has it in c and only wraps in python
20:36:29 lovetox also it lets me just pass a filename
20:36:45 lovetox with this fork, i have to install PIL and numpy to even pass something to the lib
20:36:58 jonas’ which makes sense
20:37:16 jonas’ (the original C thing also is only an encoder)
20:38:09 lovetox why does it make sense, i will never install numpy and PIL only to get a blurhash
20:38:15 lovetox insane to me :)
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20:38:29 jonas’ you need PIL to load image data
20:38:42 jonas’ you need numpy to efficiently calculate the DCT and do the inverse
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20:42:17 lovetox i dont think so, the c implementation doesnt need numpy so why should the python one
20:42:39 jonas’ you can do it in pure python, but it’ll be slow
20:42:55 lovetox they should just add a decode method to the c version
20:43:01 lovetox and nobody needs the pure python one
20:43:06 jonas’ I bet "PRs welcome"
20:43:36 jonas’ except that the C version has restrictions on the input file formats. e.g. they don’t support all JPEG and PNG variants
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20:59:31 lovetox or i save me the whole trouble with 3 thirdparty librarys
20:59:41 lovetox and just show the same blurred out placeholder for all pictures
21:00:09 lovetox this seems like a gimmick, i get that its nice for webpages with many pictures
21:00:29 lovetox but for a messaging client where most of the time only one picture is on the screen
21:00:36 lovetox i would not add all that stuff
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