XSF Discussion - 2019-11-04

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02:37:35 Link Mauve After having written a Council application, and subsequently reading the other applicants’, I am hereby not applying this year.
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02:38:04 Link Mauve I think there are much needed ideas in there, and will be happy to see how they pan out. :)
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07:40:41 jonas’ oh wow
07:40:49 jonas’ a pep
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07:40:56 jonas’ I am amazed, this is going to be a fun election
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07:51:46 Ge0rG Especially with multiple candidates running for both, this guarantees some i interesting vote dynamics. Will we need a second round?
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07:58:49 jonas’ reacts with 👍
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08:01:48 debxwoody > Link Mauve: Existing thing already using gloox? I'm starting to use and understand gloox.
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08:07:24 debxwoody > Link Mauve: Existing thing already using gloox? I'm starting to use and try to understand gloox.
08:09:39 Ge0rG jonas’ [08:58]: > /me reacts with 👍 /me slaps jonas’ with a large trout
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08:28:38 Kev Is gloox still maintained? (as opposed to Swiften)
08:28:53 Kev Ah, looks like it is, yes.
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08:31:10 flow Kev, Swiften is not maintained any more?
08:31:22 Kev Swiften is. I thought Gloox wasn't, but it is.
08:31:35 flow ahh, got it
08:31:57 debxwoody I think there is just one developer. So, I will try to have a look into the code. Maybe I can help 🤷‍♂️
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09:53:49 Link Mauve debxwoody, ah sure, so I pushed my (WIP, still segfaulting) code to https://github.com/linkmauve/bonzomatic/tree/xmpp
09:54:17 Link Mauve I might move to Swiften eventually, nothing is set so far.
09:54:28 Link Mauve I also don’t implement the Jingle part of SXE yet.
09:54:58 Ge0rG segfaulting XMPP client. What could go wrong?
09:55:02 Link Mauve Also once it doesn’t segfault anymore, I will probably upstream the SXE StanzaExtension so that other people can benefit from it, even if I end up not using gloox.
09:55:17 Link Mauve Ge0rG, segfaulting text editor, even worse.
09:58:17 Ge0rG Everybody knows that text editors are turing-complete and you MUST NOT open untrusted documents in them
09:59:14 Link Mauve Well, this one is a bit special, it compiles and executes the code the user is typing directly as its background.
09:59:41 Link Mauve It’s completely at the mercy of the OpenGL driver for proper behaviour.
10:00:22 Ge0rG The things that my imagination draws up in the intersection of XMPP, OpenGL and text editing are... weird
10:00:31 Link Mauve ^^
10:00:39 Link Mauve I like mine too. :)
10:01:05 Zash Oh, bonzomatic!
10:01:20 Zash It didn't run on my machine 😞
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10:02:08 Link Mauve Zash, it previously was in my plans to lower its OpenGL version for it to run on my netbook, before said netbook stopped booting altogether…
10:02:30 Link Mauve But there is no reason for it not to be able to target e.g. OpenGL 3.3 for snb users.
10:03:09 Zash Hm, that was before I bought my new laptop, maybe it works there
10:04:48 Link Mauve Which OpenGL version do you have? It expects at least 4.1.
10:04:57 Link Mauve I guess because Apple will never go higher than that.
10:07:03 Seve Hey Link Mauve! Is that a collaborative editor? I was looking for an editor to do "pair-programming" sessions. I found Atom + Github, but that requires Github stuff
10:07:25 Kev vscode's sharing stuff for pairing is actually excellent.
10:07:42 Zash The what now?
10:08:35 Kev Zash: @me?
10:08:37 Ge0rG sharing is ~caring~ pairing?
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10:09:12 Kev ( https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=MS-vsliveshare.vsliveshare was what I was talking about )
10:09:16 Zash Kev: Yeah, I haven't seen anything like that in vscode. Plugin or whatsitcalled?
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10:10:06 Zash Cool
10:10:08 Kev I typically use it by having an external video call on at the same time as a live share just for the code/terminal/debuggerer, although I believe it does have inbuilt audio stuff in a sister extension if you prefer.
10:11:02 flow Seve, https://www.saros-project.org/
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11:13:16 Link Mauve Seve, it’s not, I’m making it into one.
11:13:32 Link Mauve (Sorry, had breakfast with my sister.)
11:15:55 pep. flow: that's only with eclipse?
11:16:40 Link Mauve flow, larma, https://github.com/linkmauve/xeps/tree/xep-0234 contains some changes to fix Jingle-FT which imo will require a namespace bump. My plan is to then request a Last Call.
11:17:55 flow Link Mauve, already tracked/noted at https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0234:_Jingle_File_Transfer. Although I didn't see a specific change which would require a namespace bump, but I didn't had a close look
11:18:05 flow pep., there is also an intelliJ plugin IIRC
11:18:07 Seve flow, Kev thanks for sharing
11:18:19 flow Seve, of course there is also gobby
11:18:48 flow https://github.com/gobby
11:18:48 Link Mauve flow, the main breaking change is in the current version, the addition of <hash-used/> and making it mandatory.
11:18:55 Link Mauve flow, sadly unmaintained. :(
11:19:03 Seve Link Mauve, what is your motivation? (I did not know that tool but it is great if you are adding support for that :D)
11:19:14 Link Mauve But it may be a good base to build on top of SXE, I haven’t looked into that yet.
11:19:21 flow IIRC the wire protocol of gobby is also unspecified
11:19:28 Link Mauve Seve, writing shaders together with a friend. ^^
11:19:29 flow I once tried to compare it with SXE
11:19:48 Seve Link Mauve, super!
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11:54:25 Link Mauve Kev, do you happen to know which protocol they are using? Also the license isn’t one I recognise, and they don’t seem to publish the extension itself in their repository, only some documentation and code samples.
11:54:30 Link Mauve So I guess it is non-free?
11:56:42 Zash https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/MS-vsliveshare.vsliveshare/license Doesn't read like an open source license to me
11:57:28 Link Mauve Yeah.
11:57:45 Link Mauve So not really usable for the purpose of writing a compatible text editor.
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12:01:10 larma Link Mauve, I honestly don't see why your changes require a namespace bump. This is just clarifications IMO
12:01:52 larma Or "fixes" of where the XEP was inconsistent
12:01:55 pep. "Clarification" :(
12:02:29 jonas’ larma, problem is, if there previously were two ways to interpret a text, and there’s now only one, the two versions are not always interoperable
12:02:46 Zash Can a thing following the previous version talk to a thing following the new version?
12:03:26 larma jonas’, in this case they are and it's not even a big deal
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12:11:56 larma From the current XEP 234: > Either a <hash/> or a <hash-used/> element MUST be included when offering a file. [...] One or more <hash/> elements MUST be present when offering a file, but those elements MAY be empty if the hash has not yet been computed. [...] At any time during the lifetime of the file transfer session, the File Sender can communicate the checksum of the file to the File Receiver. This can be done in the session-initiate message [...] After the session-initiate message, this can also be done [...] In such a case however, the session-initiate message MUST contain a <hash-used/> element.
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12:18:11 larma So according to current XEP the only strictly correct implementation by the text of the XEP of providing the hash later is to have both empty <hash/> and <hash-used/> which obviously makes little sense. The only example covering this usecase, Example 16, only has <hash-used/> and no empty <hash/>. To me it's obvious that the "One or more <hash/> elements MUST be present when offering a file, but those elements MAY be empty" is an artifact from before <hash-used/> was introduced. I don't see why clarifying this needs a namespace bump. As a side note: the introduction of <hash-used /> in 0.18.3 didn't bump the namespace
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12:18:41 larma "have both empty <hash/> and <hash-used/>" -> "have both empty <hash/> and <hash-used/> in session-initiate"
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12:34:48 flow Yep, that potentially could go without a namespace bump (if there are no other changes)
12:35:25 flow Although I am happy to hear if someone wants to argue why one is required…
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12:49:03 Link Mauve larma, it’s not strictly about my changes, the namespace bump should have happened in 0.18.3 which introduced a new <hash-used/> element and made it a MUST where previously only <hash/> was to be there: “Either a <hash/> or a <hash-used/> element MUST be included when offering a file.”
12:49:18 Link Mauve Thus making it incompatible with previous clients which were requiring a <hash/>.
12:49:37 larma "previous clients requiring a <hash/>" = none?
12:49:49 Link Mauve I guess we could also waive it as an incompatible change made to an experimental XEP and not bump anything.
12:50:26 Link Mauve I haven’t done a field study about that, but I had an implementation (not used in any public client) which was doing that.
12:52:05 Link Mauve Clients following a version from before 0.18.3 will entirely ignore <hash-used/> as it wasn’t a thing back then, so these MUST can’t be followed by them.
12:52:59 larma I agree. But versions before 0.18.3 are not XEP compliant anymore and Experimental XEPs don't provide any notion of backwards compatibility to their previous versions.
12:53:26 Link Mauve Ok, then perfect. :)
12:54:13 larma Also, afaik both Dino and Conversations don't send hash/hash-used in session-initiate at all...
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12:58:12 larma In case you are wondering, there is also good reason for that: When the file is encrypted using JET, the hash would be the *real* hash of the file, so this would leak information on the file contents to any MITM, which isn't really desirable
12:59:01 larma So if you wanted to update that, you could change the requirement of hash/hash-used to SHOULD with a note on that 😉
12:59:03 Link Mauve So it should be made optional?
13:00:22 larma Well it could also be considered in issue of JET
13:00:48 larma Or the acutal issue is that we don't have full stanza encryption 😉
13:00:51 Link Mauve Or of not using full-stanza encryption for Jingle too.
13:00:54 Link Mauve .
13:01:14 larma BTW, I added this table https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0234:_Jingle_File_Transfer#Current_implementations_checksum_behavior
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18:16:46 Alex great list of application for the next board & council
18:16:57 Alex starts now preparing memberbot
18:17:18 Zash !
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19:21:59 jonas’ Thanks, Alex! :)
19:22:46 jonas’ this’ll be a tough vote
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20:09:39 Alex Memberbot is online
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20:10:38 pep. o/
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20:31:57 flow pep: thanks for the latest editor push :)
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20:54:33 pep. Sorry it took some time
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