XSF Discussion - 2019-11-06

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  121. jonas’

    I need to put some time aside to carefully read all of the very many applications.

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  127. Ge0rG

    It's been a long time that we had that many candidates. I'm eagerly awaiting the results.

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  129. Guus

    It's great to see so many people step up!

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  141. dwd

    Exciting stuff, indeed. And all good candidates, too.

  142. Ge0rG

    Great candidates! The best candidates!

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  145. Guus

    With infinite wisdom

  146. Guus

    Sorry, I should get that quote right

  147. Guus

    With great and unmatched wisdom.

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  214. moparisthebest

    yea I think this is the hardest time I ever had voting, making me do actual work...

  215. jonas’


  216. jonas’

    maybe we’ll have to do the tie breaking thing again, that was fun

  217. pep.

    That was weird

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  260. dwd

    It was. It'd be nice to pick the random source ahead of time in case we need it.

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  262. pep.

    I'd be happy with that

  263. Ge0rG

    Speaking of process, what about delaying the inauguration to a date some weeks after the vote?

  264. Ge0rG

    that would give old Board and old Council a chance to properly transfer everything to new B & C

  265. pep.

    Ge0rG, you want 423 to be handled by this council? :P

  266. pep.

    I'm not personally against it anyway, propose something?

  267. Ge0rG

    pep.: didn't I just propose that?

  268. Ge0rG

    I suppose it's up to Board to decide that

  269. pep.

    yeah that's what I meant

  270. pep.

    But maybe members?

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  272. Ge0rG

    pep.: Board surely can delegate that to members. Or kindly ask Alex to add it to the pending vote.

  273. dwd

    I don't think Board can decide that. I think New Board and Council takes office the moment Alex gives the formal results of the voting.

  274. Zash

    Is this governed by the bylaws or XEP 1 or something else?

  275. dwd

    Zash, Bylaws. We could change that, but only by adding it to the voting for the meeting (and we could, bylaws allow that even during the meeting, which we've had to do before).

  276. pep.


  277. Zash

    You can change the bylaws with no warning?

  278. Zash

    No double vote by separate member meetings?

  279. pep.

    ugh, TIL members' quorum is 1/3. And a vote can pass with a majority of that quorum, that is 1/6 + 1 of members?

  280. Ge0rG

    we don't even have very many members.

  281. pep.


  282. Ge0rG

    If we word it like "starting on the 1st of the calendar month one month after the vote", we would get January 1st for a vote in November.

  283. dwd

    Right. We can entirely change bylaws with the votes of about 5 users.

  284. Ge0rG

    which would remove the ambiguity between the "2019 Council" and "2020 Council"

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  286. dwd

    IIRC, we have something about tie-breaks which reduce the needed votes by 1, in effect.

  287. Kev

    dwd: Well, kinda. We'd need a majority of the quorum, which is based on the number of people who're present or proxy voted, and we usually have a decent number of proxy votes, so doing it with 5 members in practice would be hard, I think?

  288. dwd

    Kev, Yes, but if you hit the mimimum all the way.

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  290. Kev

    (It's 9 incidentally)

  291. pep.

    §4.5, Election and Term. At each annual meeting of Members, the Members shall elect Directors to hold office until the next succeeding annual meeting, in accordance with the procedure defined in Section 3.12 of these Bylaws. Each Director shall hold office for the term for which he or she is elected and until his or her successor shall have been elected and qualified or until his or her earlier resignation, removal or death.

  292. pep.

    This doesn't say specifically when?

  293. dwd

    Ah, that's right. See §3.8, second para.

  294. dwd

    So proxy voters, in effect, vanish from the meeting after they cast their initial vote, but we still keep quorum and a majority of those remaining (ie, present) is all that's needed.

  295. dwd

    Unless one considers the proxy to still be live, and in effect held by Alex, in which case Alex can in all practical sense do whatever he wants.

  296. dwd

    But last time we had to do weird shit in the AGM, I think we used that second para to mean the proxy voters had left the meeting.

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  298. dwd

    ... and then used a vote on §4.4 to resolve a tie, since we hadn't any other solution at the time.

  299. pep.

    §3.4 Notice "if the Member has consented to receipt of notices via electronic transmission."

  300. pep.


  301. pep.

    "Please Alex send me notices via snail mail"

  302. pep.

    I don't want your fancy electronic mails

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  308. pep.

    hmm is that really 9 members btw? `jq '.members[].name' data/members.json | wc -l` says 53. * 1/6 that's 8.8 so 9? + 1

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  312. dwd

    9 would be a majority.

  313. pep.

    A majority is not "more than half"?

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  315. pep.

    Ah, right

  316. pep.


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  318. dwd

    As I say, you just need 18 to vote on anything, then usurp the quorum in the meeting and do whatever you like with a majority of those who showed up. Normally about 5.

  319. pep.


  320. pep.

    And 5 as a majority is generous, for annual meetings

  321. Ge0rG

    dwd: we are missing you over in council@

  322. Alex

    we don't keep records on who shows up, and we don't verify the Ids ;-)

  323. Kev

    Although do we have a process for how stuff gets onto the Agenda?

  324. pep.

    Alex, true. It's not like we verified JIDs even :p

  325. pep.

    (during board/council meetings for example)

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  330. Kev

    I used to when I was chairing, FWIW.

  331. Kev

    Quickly check everyone's popups were the right people.

  332. Ge0rG

    you can't verify the council JIDs from the web logs.

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  335. Alex

    I used to ask for additional agenda items when I announce the meetings. But I think I stopped doing that because nobody asked for adding items

  336. pep.

    Technically it is an annual meeting, and could be used for more than "just" voting council and board

  337. Alex

    pep.: agreed

  338. Zash

    It's quite normal for random organizations here to set the roadmap and budget on such meetings

  339. Zash

    And that the member meeting agenda has to be annouced waaaaaay in advance

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  341. Zash

    And that the agenda has an item for "was this announced properly?" and if the answer is no then the entire meeting is invalid

  342. Guus

    If we're considering doing this, I'd strongly prefer any additional agenda items to be handled to be declared well in advance of the meeting.

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  344. pep.

    §3.2 "A meeting of the Members shall be held annually at such time as the Board of Directors may determine".

  345. pep.

    Zash, here you go, "way in advance"

  346. Zash

    And as previously mentioned, changes to the bylaws usually require approval on two consecutive member meetings

  347. pep.

    And §3.4 Notice says 10 to 60 days

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  355. stpeter

    Do note that the members can call for a special meeting at any time, too.

  356. Kev

    Although the requirement for that is kinda prohibitive :)

  357. pep.

    "when requested in writing by not less than ten percent (10%) of all members entitled to vote at the meeting"

  358. pep.

    That's 6 members?

  359. Kev


  360. Kev

    Do we have 6 members who can remember how to write? :)

  361. Zash

    And to where?

  362. pep.

    Right. Can we add an agenda item for the next annual meeting then (this month)

  363. pep.

    Might as well use it

  364. pep.

    To remove this restriction

  365. pep.

    Alex, ^. Or should I formally send something somewhere?

  366. stpeter

    I'd say "in writing" could be the members@ list, since that's what we use for formal communications.

  367. pep.

    Maybe we can just be more explicit

  368. Alex

    pep.: I did not follow the whole discussion, I joined late and don'tr have the full history. Need to browse the logs, can you point me to it?

  369. pep.

    Just the last bit with stpeter

  370. Zash

    Requiring more than one member is sane tho

  371. pep.

    To reword/make more explicit the bits in §3.3 of the bylaws "or when requested in writing by not less than ten percent (10%) of all members entitled to vote at the meeting"

  372. pep.

    The "in writing" part

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  375. Zash

    Post to members@ seems fine to me

  376. pep.

    Ok. Now I have to think of wording..

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  379. pep.

    Can we also not just have PRs/MRs for that..

  380. pep.

    where is the source of truth for the bylaws? xmpp.org?

  381. pep.

    Can I just send a PR on github and get it approved by members during a meeting?

  382. moparisthebest

    Apparently wherever around 5 members gather :)

  383. pep.

    moparisthebest, no it needs to be announced

  384. moparisthebest

    This opens all sorts of fun possibilities

  385. Zash

    I will object to anything that's only done on Github

  386. pep.

    Zash, not "only"

  387. moparisthebest

    I think council members should have to wear robes and wizards hats during meetings

  388. pep.

    (Although I'd really like to have a tracker be used more prominently, it doesn't have to be github)

  389. Zash

    pep.: Post to members@ or similar.

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  393. pep.

    stpeter, Alex, do you have the answer to my question above btw, is this online document on xmpp.org the source of truth for our bylaws?

  394. stpeter

    Yes it is.

  395. pep.


  396. stpeter

    (Sorry, I am in another meeting on another computer, attention is limited as always.)

  397. pep.

    no worries :)

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  479. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest [17:29]: > I think council members should have to wear robes and wizards hats during meetings That sounds like a proposal for our bylaws.

  480. Link Mauve

    Does a VLC hat work too?

  481. moparisthebest

    it was, I plan to rope 4 more members into agreeing with me at the council/board election meeting Ge0rG

  482. Link Mauve

    That’s the closest thing I have.

  483. moparisthebest

    sure Link Mauve I'll amend my proposal then

  484. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: you have a pylon hat?

  485. Link Mauve

    A VLC hat.

  486. Ge0rG

    I'm strictly against that. Only wizard items should be allowed. Otherwise, somebody will try to get in wearing a horny yak mask or something.

  487. Link Mauve

    There are pictures of me wearing it on the Internet.

  488. moparisthebest

    what about "Council members MUST wear robes and pointed hats during meetings" ?

  489. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: lies! I've entered "link mauve wearing a vlc hat" into the search box, and the closest thing I got was an Underage Gypsy weddings in Russia

  490. pep.

    moparisthebest, a council member could have somebody point at their hat and qualify?

  491. moparisthebest

    I'm fine with it pep.

  492. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I didn’t say they were indexed by your search engine. :p

  493. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: so they are on the darknet?

  494. Link Mauve

    I was on the boat this picture has been taken from: https://kodi.tv/sites/default/files/article/field_image/vlc-tower.jpg

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  514. Zash

    pep.: https://xkcd.com/2225/ !

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  517. pep.

    Zash, :D

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  521. Zash

    Has the Docker hub build problem resolved itself?

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  526. pep.

    What do you mean?

  527. pep.

    The build time getting faster?

  528. pep.

    That's editors (jonas mostly) pushing themselves

  529. Zash


  530. Zash

    I mean, I thought it wasn't working at all

  531. Zash

    For whatever value of "it"

  532. Zash

    Something something Docker hub mumble

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  535. pep.

    Docker hub is quite often returning 50x

  536. pep.

    Maybe that was just that

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  625. pep.

    "Section 3.12 Matters Submitted to a Vote. Any matter that may properly come before the Members may be submitted to the Members for a vote at an annual or special meeting upon request signed or approved by not less than five percent (5%) of the Members of the Corporation."

  626. pep.

    Do I need 5% of the members to agree to correct a typo in the bylaws? :-°

  627. pep.


  628. Zash

    That's a pretty long sentence.

  629. Zash

    Is it the special meeting that needs the 5% to approve or the matter?

  630. pep.

    The matter I'd say, because the special meeting is 10%

  631. Zash

    add parenthesis plz

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  633. pep.

    I'd need 5% of members to agree first

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  638. pep.

    So if I add agenda items, we'll need at least 18 people to show up during that annual meeting. That's going to be fun

  639. pep.

    (and probably not happening)

  640. pep.

    Or did I understand that dwd said earlier that all proxy votes counted as members leaving the meeting didn't affect quorum, hence the number "5" popping up

  641. pep.

    (as per 3.8 paragraph 2)

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