I need to put some time aside to carefully read all of the very many applications.
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Ge0rG
It's been a long time that we had that many candidates. I'm eagerly awaiting the results.
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Guus
It's great to see so many people step up!
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dwd
Exciting stuff, indeed. And all good candidates, too.
Ge0rG
Great candidates! The best candidates!
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Guus
With infinite wisdom
Guus
Sorry, I should get that quote right
Guus
With great and unmatched wisdom.
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moparisthebest
yea I think this is the hardest time I ever had voting, making me do actual work...
jonas’
:D
jonas’
maybe we’ll have to do the tie breaking thing again, that was fun
pep.
That was weird
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dwd
It was. It'd be nice to pick the random source ahead of time in case we need it.
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pep.
I'd be happy with that
Ge0rG
Speaking of process, what about delaying the inauguration to a date some weeks after the vote?
Ge0rG
that would give old Board and old Council a chance to properly transfer everything to new B & C
pep.
Ge0rG, you want 423 to be handled by this council? :P
pep.
I'm not personally against it anyway, propose something?
Ge0rG
pep.: didn't I just propose that?
Ge0rG
I suppose it's up to Board to decide that
pep.
yeah that's what I meant
pep.
But maybe members?
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Ge0rG
pep.: Board surely can delegate that to members. Or kindly ask Alex to add it to the pending vote.
dwd
I don't think Board can decide that. I think New Board and Council takes office the moment Alex gives the formal results of the voting.
Zash
Is this governed by the bylaws or XEP 1 or something else?
dwd
Zash, Bylaws. We could change that, but only by adding it to the voting for the meeting (and we could, bylaws allow that even during the meeting, which we've had to do before).
pep.
sure
Zash
You can change the bylaws with no warning?
Zash
No double vote by separate member meetings?
pep.
ugh, TIL members' quorum is 1/3. And a vote can pass with a majority of that quorum, that is 1/6 + 1 of members?
Ge0rG
we don't even have very many members.
pep.
Still
Ge0rG
If we word it like "starting on the 1st of the calendar month one month after the vote", we would get January 1st for a vote in November.
dwd
Right. We can entirely change bylaws with the votes of about 5 users.
Ge0rG
which would remove the ambiguity between the "2019 Council" and "2020 Council"
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dwd
IIRC, we have something about tie-breaks which reduce the needed votes by 1, in effect.
Kev
dwd: Well, kinda. We'd need a majority of the quorum, which is based on the number of people who're present or proxy voted, and we usually have a decent number of proxy votes, so doing it with 5 members in practice would be hard, I think?
dwd
Kev, Yes, but if you hit the mimimum all the way.
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Kev
(It's 9 incidentally)
pep.
§4.5, Election and Term. At each annual meeting of Members, the Members shall elect Directors to hold office until the next succeeding annual meeting, in accordance with the procedure defined in Section 3.12 of these Bylaws. Each Director shall hold office for the term for which he or she is elected and until his or her successor shall have been elected and qualified or until his or her earlier resignation, removal or death.
pep.
This doesn't say specifically when?
dwd
Ah, that's right. See §3.8, second para.
dwd
So proxy voters, in effect, vanish from the meeting after they cast their initial vote, but we still keep quorum and a majority of those remaining (ie, present) is all that's needed.
dwd
Unless one considers the proxy to still be live, and in effect held by Alex, in which case Alex can in all practical sense do whatever he wants.
dwd
But last time we had to do weird shit in the AGM, I think we used that second para to mean the proxy voters had left the meeting.
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dwd
... and then used a vote on §4.4 to resolve a tie, since we hadn't any other solution at the time.
pep.
§3.4 Notice "if the Member has consented to receipt of notices via electronic transmission."
pep.
lol
pep.
"Please Alex send me notices via snail mail"
pep.
I don't want your fancy electronic mails
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pep.
hmm is that really 9 members btw? `jq '.members[].name' data/members.json | wc -l` says 53. * 1/6 that's 8.8 so 9? + 1
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dwd
9 would be a majority.
pep.
A majority is not "more than half"?
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pep.
Ah, right
pep.
nvm
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dwd
As I say, you just need 18 to vote on anything, then usurp the quorum in the meeting and do whatever you like with a majority of those who showed up. Normally about 5.
pep.
Indeed
pep.
And 5 as a majority is generous, for annual meetings
Ge0rG
dwd: we are missing you over in council@
Alex
we don't keep records on who shows up, and we don't verify the Ids ;-)
Kev
Although do we have a process for how stuff gets onto the Agenda?
pep.
Alex, true. It's not like we verified JIDs even :p
pep.
(during board/council meetings for example)
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Kev
I used to when I was chairing, FWIW.
Kev
Quickly check everyone's popups were the right people.
Ge0rG
you can't verify the council JIDs from the web logs.
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Alex
I used to ask for additional agenda items when I announce the meetings. But I think I stopped doing that because nobody asked for adding items
pep.
Technically it is an annual meeting, and could be used for more than "just" voting council and board
Alex
pep.: agreed
Zash
It's quite normal for random organizations here to set the roadmap and budget on such meetings
Zash
And that the member meeting agenda has to be annouced waaaaaay in advance
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Zash
And that the agenda has an item for "was this announced properly?" and if the answer is no then the entire meeting is invalid
Guus
If we're considering doing this, I'd strongly prefer any additional agenda items to be handled to be declared well in advance of the meeting.
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pep.
§3.2 "A meeting of the Members shall be held annually at such time as the Board of Directors may determine".
pep.
Zash, here you go, "way in advance"
Zash
And as previously mentioned, changes to the bylaws usually require approval on two consecutive member meetings
pep.
And §3.4 Notice says 10 to 60 days
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stpeter
Do note that the members can call for a special meeting at any time, too.
Kev
Although the requirement for that is kinda prohibitive :)
pep.
"when requested in writing by not less than ten percent (10%) of all members entitled to vote at the meeting"
pep.
That's 6 members?
Kev
Yep.
Kev
Do we have 6 members who can remember how to write? :)
Zash
And to where?
pep.
Right. Can we add an agenda item for the next annual meeting then (this month)
pep.
Might as well use it
pep.
To remove this restriction
pep.
Alex, ^. Or should I formally send something somewhere?
stpeter
I'd say "in writing" could be the members@ list, since that's what we use for formal communications.
pep.
Maybe we can just be more explicit
Alex
pep.: I did not follow the whole discussion, I joined late and don'tr have the full history. Need to browse the logs, can you point me to it?
pep.
Just the last bit with stpeter
Zash
Requiring more than one member is sane tho
pep.
To reword/make more explicit the bits in §3.3 of the bylaws "or when requested in writing by not less than ten percent (10%) of all members entitled to vote at the meeting"
pep.
The "in writing" part
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Zash
Post to members@ seems fine to me
pep.
Ok. Now I have to think of wording..
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pep.
Can we also not just have PRs/MRs for that..
pep.
where is the source of truth for the bylaws? xmpp.org?
pep.
Can I just send a PR on github and get it approved by members during a meeting?
moparisthebest
Apparently wherever around 5 members gather :)
pep.
moparisthebest, no it needs to be announced
moparisthebest
This opens all sorts of fun possibilities
Zash
I will object to anything that's only done on Github
pep.
Zash, not "only"
moparisthebest
I think council members should have to wear robes and wizards hats during meetings
pep.
(Although I'd really like to have a tracker be used more prominently, it doesn't have to be github)
Zash
pep.: Post to members@ or similar.
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pep.
stpeter, Alex, do you have the answer to my question above btw, is this online document on xmpp.org the source of truth for our bylaws?
stpeter
Yes it is.
pep.
k
stpeter
(Sorry, I am in another meeting on another computer, attention is limited as always.)
pep.
no worries :)
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest [17:29]:
> I think council members should have to wear robes and wizards hats during meetings
That sounds like a proposal for our bylaws.
Link Mauve
Does a VLC hat work too?
moparisthebest
it was, I plan to rope 4 more members into agreeing with me at the council/board election meeting Ge0rG
Link Mauve
That’s the closest thing I have.
moparisthebest
sure Link Mauve I'll amend my proposal then
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: you have a pylon hat?
Link Mauve
A VLC hat.
Ge0rG
I'm strictly against that. Only wizard items should be allowed. Otherwise, somebody will try to get in wearing a horny yak mask or something.
Link Mauve
There are pictures of me wearing it on the Internet.
moparisthebest
what about "Council members MUST wear robes and pointed hats during meetings" ?
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: lies! I've entered "link mauve wearing a vlc hat" into the search box, and the closest thing I got was an Underage Gypsy weddings in Russia
pep.
moparisthebest, a council member could have somebody point at their hat and qualify?
moparisthebest
I'm fine with it pep.
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, I didn’t say they were indexed by your search engine. :p
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: so they are on the darknet?
Link Mauve
I was on the boat this picture has been taken from: https://kodi.tv/sites/default/files/article/field_image/vlc-tower.jpg
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Zash
pep.: https://xkcd.com/2225/ !
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pep.
Zash, :D
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Zash
Has the Docker hub build problem resolved itself?
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pep.
What do you mean?
pep.
The build time getting faster?
pep.
That's editors (jonas mostly) pushing themselves
Zash
No
Zash
I mean, I thought it wasn't working at all
Zash
For whatever value of "it"
Zash
Something something Docker hub mumble
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pep.
Docker hub is quite often returning 50x
pep.
Maybe that was just that
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pep.
"Section 3.12 Matters Submitted to a Vote. Any matter that may properly come before the Members may be submitted to the Members for a vote at an annual or special meeting upon request signed or approved by not less than five percent (5%) of the Members of the Corporation."
pep.
Do I need 5% of the members to agree to correct a typo in the bylaws? :-°
pep.
(probably.)
Zash
That's a pretty long sentence.
Zash
Is it the special meeting that needs the 5% to approve or the matter?
pep.
The matter I'd say, because the special meeting is 10%
Zash
add parenthesis plz
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pep.
I'd need 5% of members to agree first
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pep.
So if I add agenda items, we'll need at least 18 people to show up during that annual meeting. That's going to be fun
pep.
(and probably not happening)
pep.
Or did I understand that dwd said earlier that all proxy votes counted as members leaving the meeting didn't affect quorum, hence the number "5" popping up