XSF Discussion - 2019-11-12

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  158. pep. Can somebody from board add an item in the trello board (doesn't seem like I'm able to?) "Who is webteam. How to get in"
  159. Ge0rG what's webteam?
  160. pep. I heard rumours of a team handling xsf/xmpp.org. That's what I'm told when I want to push things there, unless jonas or guus merge my stuff because they have rights for $reasons
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  163. Zash Not the same as commteam?
  164. Zash So many teams
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  166. pep. Apparently not, otherwise nyco would have rights to push and he didn't, for the last newsletter
  167. jonas’ I’m also in no team except editor and for some reason I got +w on the repo
  168. jonas’ it might’ve been an instance of "at the right place at the right time"
  169. Seve I don't think there's a strict rule about this, right now. Don't you have access as well, pep.?
  170. nyco pep. https://trello.com/c/PqY2mHjl/372-who-is-webteam-how-to-get-in
  171. pep. nyco, thanks
  172. pep. Seve, I don't. I don't especially want them, I just want to clarify the situation, know who I can ask etc.
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  219. ralphm There are several GitHub teams associated with the xmpp.org repo, including one called 'Web' and one called 'XMPP Comms Team'. nyco is in the latter and should have write access with that.
  220. ralphm If not, you can take this up with iteam (e.g. Kev), and I don't think has to be discussed in a Board meeting.
  221. ralphm pep.: ^
  222. Kev But not e.g. Kev, please. e.g. MattJ :)
  223. MattJ wfm
  224. pep. "how to get in" doesn't have to be discussed in a board meeting?
  225. MattJ I think some clarification is possibly needed, that doesn't necessarily mean a board meeting is needed
  226. ralphm not really, everyone in comms should have access
  227. pep. So comms is the "web" team?
  228. ralphm and if not, MattJ can set you up.
  229. pep. (that is, the one with access to xsf/xmpp.org?)
  230. ralphm There are additional people in the "web" team, which are not necessarily in the comms team.
  231. pep. Why?
  232. pep. And who. I can't see it from here
  233. ralphm Because e.g. Guus might want to write on the website as a Board member.
  234. pep. Fair enough, but this is not explained anywhere
  235. pep. That's what I'm asking for
  236. ralphm https://github.com/orgs/xsf/teams should have an overview, but I don't know who can see that.
  237. pep. I only see board and editors
  238. MattJ The teams are marked as "secret" for some reason
  239. ralphm Out for lunch now, sorry
  240. MattJ There may be a good reason for that, Github's auth/permissions can be frustrating, but I don't know
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  242. Guus There really hasn't been any process to add people to the GitHub webteam, other than be invited by existing members. To the best of my knowledge, there is no intentional overlap with XSF workteams and the GitHub webteam.
  243. pep. MattJ, If possible, I'd ask for this to be changed to public
  244. MattJ I can't say I didn't see that coming :)
  245. Kev I'm trying to remember if I know what the reason is.
  246. Guus If anything, the github webteam can probably be clean up.
  247. MattJ I can imagine one possible explanation being that people don't necessarily want team associations showing up on their Github profiles
  248. pep. This makes the whole thing very opaque though
  249. Guus Maybe clean up, ask the remaining team for concerns, and make (not) public based on their feedback?
  250. pep. Nobody knows who can push
  251. pep. Or why they got commit rights in the first place
  252. Kev pep.: I think a clear list of who is (apart from iteam) allowed to push content to the website would be sensible.
  253. pep. sure
  254. Kev I don't think that making the github teams public is necessarily the way to do that.
  255. pep. It's the best way to keep both lists in sync
  256. pep. But ok
  257. Kev I also think that it doesn't matter, to some extent, as long as PRs are getting reviewed often enough. When contributing to most projects one doesn't try to find out who has commit access, they just send in PRs.
  258. Guus Having commteam members gain privileges to do reviewing of the public website does make sense to me.
  259. pep. We have work teams though, I didn't get editor rights until I got in there, and I wouldn't have expected to get them if I hadn't been accepted in the team
  260. Kev Guus: They have, no?
  261. Guus the way how XEPs are managed is a lot more structured than how our public website is.
  262. Kev As far as I can see, commteam has write access to both xmpp.org and xsf-tools.
  263. pep. I'm happy wherever the responsability of commiting to xsf/xmpp.org falls to, I just want it to be explicit (and it isn't atm)
  264. Guus Kev oh - that very well could be the case. I didn't check.
  265. Kev As far as I can see, iteam (although not expecting to use it for content) and commteam having write access to the website is sensible.
  266. Guus upon inspection: I don't think that commteam has access
  267. Guus I can't see everything
  268. Kev I think giving access beyond that should be a question for Board, because I don't think we should be giving out the ability to speak on behalf of the XSF (which is what the website is) arbitrarily.
  269. MattJ Strange, I see the same as Kev and ralphm - commteam has write access to the repo
  270. Guus but I don't htink that nyco has access, for example, nor has seve.
  271. Guus Oh, then I'm missing stuff
  272. Kev Permission level: Write Can read, clone, and push to this repository. Can also manage issues and pull requests.
  273. Guus which is entirely possible
  274. Kev Guus is not a member of the commteam, incidentally.
  275. Kev That's JC, Nyco, Seve and Winifried.
  276. Guus nope
  277. Guus nope i'm not.
  278. Guus Don't let me confuse people - you guys are in a better position to see what's what than me.
  279. Kev goes back to work stuffs.
  280. MattJ My proposal would be to drop the 'web' team, and stick to actual well-defined teams
  281. pep. MattJ, +1
  282. MattJ and add any other teams that it makes sense to have access
  283. MattJ such as iteam, maybe board
  284. Kev MattJ: I think I'd propose to have an explicit web team, same as our other teams.
  285. Guus I don't care much either way.
  286. MattJ Congrats, write the charter, etc. :)
  287. pep. I actually don't care either way
  288. Guus I'll follow Kev's good example and go do works stuff now.
  289. pep. (either)
  290. Kev But I CBA to do anything about it, and it mostly depends whether people on webteam and not on comms would want to do things.
  291. Kev &
  292. MattJ I don't see why we would trust someone to manage our website and not trust them to do other public-facing stuff on behalf of the XSF
  293. MattJ i.e. why anyone who works on the website shouldn't be part of commteam
  294. MattJ or another team with reasonable grounds for access
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  296. Zash Sounds reasonable.
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  302. ralphm Yup
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  307. ralphm FWIW, the reason that the "Web" team exists is an historical artifact, from when there was no comms team and the website was overhauled.
  308. ralphm I agree it would be useful to just map the XSFs formal Work Teams, Council, and Board, as GitHub Teams as the basis for access.
  309. ralphm I also don't see why they'd need to be secret, as team membership is already made public on our website.
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  311. Neustradamus Problem? https://xmpp.org/
  312. ralphm Neustradamus: works for me, but while you are here, please give me admin access to the LinkedIn org for the XSF.
  313. Guus https://xmpp.org/ works for me
  314. Zash Vauge question?
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  316. ralphm Neustradamus: I think I've asked often enough by now.
  317. Neustradamus I have a blank page for https://xmpp.org/
  318. Guus > I have a blank page for https://xmpp.org/ I suspect that this is a problem local to you. It works fine for others, including me. I've even tried an incognito tab.
  319. Neustradamus Cache problem, sorry
  320. ralphm Neustradamus: did you see my message?
  321. Neustradamus It is possible to update the logo? - https://twitter.com/xmpp - https://wiki.xmpp.org/images/xmpp.png - https://xmpp.org/theme/images/xmpp-logo.svg and other too (regenerate from the last .SVG) - Memberbot - Other places
  322. ralphm Neustradamus: Is is possible to respond to my request for LinkedIn Org admin?
  323. ralphm Neustradamus: Is it possible to respond to my request for LinkedIn Org admin?
  324. Guus Neustradamus I can't fix 'other places' if I don't know where those are. 🙂
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  329. Guus Hmm, I don't think I'm an admin of the XMPP team on Twitter (which I think means that I can't change the avatar there)
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  332. Guus Please keep talking here, Neustradamus, and not in private. I know where the last updated version of the logo is.
  333. Guus But without access, I can't change it on the systems that it needs to be changed on.
  334. ralphm Guus: I don't think that Tweetdeck allows profile changes like that, you'd have to log into Twitter with the account credentials directly.
  335. Guus ralphm which is another reason why I can't do that. I don't have the account credentials.
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  338. ralphm Guus: Kev does. Twitter is not designed for multiple people managing a single account, oddly enough.
  339. Neustradamus Guus: - https://github.com/xsf and repositories
  340. ralphm Neustradamus: a response to my message, please?
  341. Kev I'm not paying attention here, but if you need something please mail ralphm / Guus and I'll try to sort.
  342. ralphm Kev: ok, thanks!
  343. Guus The logo on https://github.com/xsf seems OK to me?
  344. Guus I don't think that individual repositories can have logos.
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  346. Guus (I've emailed Kev with the Twitter request)
  347. ralphm You can add a logo that'll show up when a repo is mentioned by URL on social media (like Twitter, Slack), but we don't have that right now, and I don't think that's important either.
  348. wurstsalat Guus, is this the current one? I looked for one recently for gajim's website https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg
  349. Guus That seems to be correct, yes. I'm always using the one that's on the top-left corner of https://xmpp.org
  350. Guus https://xmpp.org/theme/images/xmpp-logo.svg
  351. Guus which is easy to remember: https://xmpp.org/theme/images/xmpp-logo.svg
  352. Neustradamus Guus: there was a little change after the previous, it was not the exactly same at right and left: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg
  353. Guus Oh, Converse doesn't like me injecting links
  354. ralphm Guus: looks fine here
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  356. Guus github logo replaced
  357. Guus Can someone do it on LinkedIn?
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  359. Neustradamus From XMPP.org: https://i.ibb.co/vcqmc8b/xmpp-logo-xsf-test.png From Commons: https://i.ibb.co/Zgsjk3T/XMPP-logo-xsf-test.png
  360. Neustradamus Guus: Do you the difference? :)
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  362. Guus Please provide a PR to fix the logo on xmpp.org.
  363. pep. ralphm: you have to adopt the Neustradamus technique to get him to reply to you
  364. ralphm Neustradamus: Guus makes a good point. If you'd stop ignoring me, I'd also be able to help him.
  365. pep. ralphm: fwiw once your rights are sorted out, I'd prefer this to get to whatever team it is appropriate rather than individuals
  366. ralphm pep.: naturally
  367. ralphm For every service that supports this.
  368. ralphm (unlike Twitter, ugh)
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  376. intosi Neustradamus: please respond to ralphm's request.
  377. !XSF_Martin pep.: > ralphm: you have to adopt the Neustradamus technique to get him to reply to you What's that? You have to do a special dance?
  378. intosi while (true) { askSameQuestion(); sleep(random()%3600); /* this is where a sentinel would be implemented */ }
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  385. Guus Neustradamus do you have a PNG version of the correct logo?
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  387. moparisthebest you can generate one given the SVG, with inkscape on the command line at least
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  389. Guus Yeah, which is going to get me in trouble because I missed pixel. I'd rather have it from him, to avoid any confusion.
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  402. Ge0rG Wikipedia also lists https://www.livejournal.com/support/faq/270.html as an XMPP deployment
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  405. Maranda Link Mauve, would there be a case in which eme can be used with messages using multiple encryption formats?
  406. Link Mauve Hmm, hopefully not, but I could see a made up case where you’d have full stanza encryption around (flagged with EME) and inside another kind of encryption, also flagged with EME.
  407. Link Mauve But those are two different “message” containers.
  408. Link Mauve Do you have another possible usecase?
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  410. Maranda Link Mauve, I was just thinking that someone could really just encrypt one message using both openpgp and omemo for example
  411. Link Mauve Hmm, no, because they both can only encrypt the body.
  412. Maranda That would mean multiple eme elements would be needed I think? The schema doesn't limit instances either
  413. Link Mauve OTR-encrypted in OMEMO or OpenPGP might be a thing though, although I expect no one sane would ever do that.
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  415. Link Mauve Can we limit instances of a payload in a message, in the schema?
  416. Ge0rG Link Mauve: yes we can. But should we?
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  420. Ge0rG What's wrong with having a body encrypted both ways? Besides of having the possibility to sneak in two different messages, and that the resulting security is the worst of both.
  421. Maranda Link Mauve, I meant that one message stanza can contain both one omemo element and one openpgp element for example, to encrypt/sign whatever the same message content for something supporting one or the other
  422. Ge0rG The OpenPGP encrypted payload body would read: "I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo"
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  426. Link Mauve Ge0rG, let’s rot13 encrypt twice with two EME tags for additional security!
  427. Maranda Ge0rG, that's not what I meant either.
  428. Link Mauve Maranda, sounds like an amazing can of worms.
  429. Ge0rG Link Mauve: according to XEP-0419?
  430. Link Mauve Ge0rG, yes.
  431. Maranda Ge0rG, I meant encrypted using xep-0374 not the legacy format
  432. Ge0rG Maranda: did you mean something different than what I wrote in my last non-sarcastic message?
  433. Maranda which has its own element and doesn't use <body />
  434. Maranda iiuc
  435. Maranda so one message in that case could be encrypted using... both?
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  437. Ge0rG Maranda: you could put an <openpgp> element alongside an OMEMO <encrypted> element, and those might even contain ciphertexts of the same plaintext body
  438. Maranda Ge0rG, whatever.. I'm just trying to understand if that's a possibility I should take in account or not for MAM if that wasn't clear and if 2 eme elements can be appended to a stanza to advertise both encryptions
  439. flow Unless I hear a very convincing use-case for using multiple encryption mechanisms within the same stanza, I would probably recommend to not consider it. How many e-mail clients are capable of creating mails with OpenPGP and S/MIME parts?
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  441. Ge0rG Maranda: 0380 does not forbid multiple <encryption> elements
  442. Ge0rG Maranda: other than that, you should retain all message elements in MAM
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  444. Ge0rG _maybe_ with the exception of well-known noise elements, like chat states
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  446. Maranda Ge0rG, for now it's very convenient to do otherwise... regarding retaining all elements.
  447. Maranda but I'm reviewing that code right now so.
  448. Ge0rG Maranda: I know that path. It leads into major pain later on.
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  486. Maranda sorted
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