RCS is technically and "organisationally" a big mess, but at least it is a real community/consortium effort, with a real open standard process
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MattJ
Assuming the non-Google messaging apps adopt it (most commercial Android distributions don't use it by default, such as Samsung's), the only other thing that remains to be seen is whether Apple will join in
nyco
I assume Apple will join when/if forced
nyco
I think the joiner will be the carriers rather than app makers
nyco
how can we add pictures on the wiki?
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Ge0rG
it's a consortiom effort of Big Telco. From past experience, this is the opposite of "open"
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jonas’
I have a sane criterium how we can demote clients like pidgin from our recommendations.
jonas’
We should not recommend multi-protocol clients with the same priority as single-protocol clients.
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jonas’
because experience shows that multi-protocol clients are always worse than single-protocol clients.
jonas’
we should still *list* them, but in a separate table and with a note above that those clients only make sense if and only if you also need to connect to other networks *and* you want to use only one tool *and* you can live with a degraded user experience of all involved protocols.
Guus
jonas’: I like that
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jonas’
this criterium can be evaluated objectively, even though it is based on experience, which I like.
jonas’
and since the clients obviously didn’t prioritize xmpp, we shouldn’t prioritize them :)
Guus
How many multi protocol clients do we currently list?
jonas’
I don’t know, maybe only pidgin?
Seve
that has to be per client, in the future maybe you find a multi-protocol client that actually cares about XMPP first
jonas’
Seve, we can worry about that when it happens :)
Guus
Yeah
pep.
Workarounds, workarounds everywhere \o/
pep.
:P
Ge0rG
so yaxim is a multi-protocol client? :((
pep.
What is considered multi-protocol?
jonas’
pep., a client which can directly and natively offer chat services over anything but XMPP.
jonas’
(where XMPP encompasses RFCs and XEPs, so e.g. the serverless stuff would still be ok)
pep.
(I was going to ask)
jonas’
and being able to IRC via biboumi is obviously not multi-protocol, because the client only does XMPP
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Guus
I'd consider 'multi-protocol clients' to be the likes of Trillian and Pidgin. Unsure how to exactly define that other than what jonas’ already wrote.
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nyco
jonas’ multi-protocol clients tend to offer an experience that's more user friendly, because the protocol does not matter here, but the features do
pep.
you mean IRC features do?
Guus
nyco but at the same time, they're often limited to the most common denominator between protocols, which leads to very basic functionality.
nyco
agree
pep.
Because multi-protocol means lowest common denominator
nyco
still, we (XSF) do want to keep neutrality
pep.
That's not what we want to keep neutrality for
pep.
I guess
Guus
Sure: jonas’ proposal doesn't hurt neutrality
Guus
it just splits the list in two helpful lists
nyco
why not? please explain
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Guus
XMPP-native clients, and multi-protocol clients.
pep.
nyco, because it doesn't discriminate on XMPP implementations
nyco
I don't get it
Seve
It is just like a pre-applied filter on a search for xmpp clients, nyco
Guus
nyco we now have one list that contains all clients. jonas’ suggests to split that list into two list: one that contains only clients that do XMPP natively, and another one that only has multi-protocol clients.
Guus
I suppose we can keep both lists on the same website page.
nyco
that's only one criteria, why this one? there's also mobile vs desktop, fat vs light, etc.
pep.
because that's one way to put pidgin (sub-par XMPP implementation) at the bottom of the page.
Guus
we use this criteria, as it distinguishes between clients that have been implemented with an emphasis on XMPP, and those that have not.
nyco
when users select an app, do they care about this criteria?
pep.
Since when is xmpp.org about users?
pep.
If it were we wouldn't be showing pidgin at all
Guus
I think so. It allows the user, apart from the platform selection, to also select a client that either gives them broad, but limited features for many protocols, or a more specific solution.
jonas’
I think most users *don’t* care about this distinction, and that’s why they end up with pidgin.
Ge0rG
pep.: there was a time when pidgin didn't appear there.
Guus
pep. many people are very happy with Pidgin.
pep.
Ge0rG, I know..
Ge0rGis still mad at a certain website editor about that.
pep.
Guus, and many people are ranting about XMPP because of pidgin. I'm sure these two sets overlap
nyco
lots of users like Pidgin, so be it, let's understand that
jonas’
the point being, users know what platform support means. they need a client which works on their machine (Linux, Windows, whatever)
jonas’
they don’t know the importance of whether the client puts XMPP first or whether it tries to be multi-protocol
jonas’
nyco, do they, though?
jonas’
or do they simply not know the difference?
pep.
Guus, if we cared about users we'd want them to have a good XMPP experience
pep.
Not use pidgin
nyco
I don't know, I wouldn't assume an answer, I'd rather do some UX research
jonas’
or do they like pidgin because of its multi-protocol features, which is a very valid reason, but a reason one really should have to use pidgin
Guus
Which is why I like Jonas' idea.
nyco
so far, we have a customer who won't let go Pidgin, because
nyco
this customer only uses XMPP in Pidgin
Ge0rG
nyco: maybe people like pidgin because they don't realize how everything will break down when they use it together with another client. Or when they realize it, they blame xmpp
Guus
it allows is to explicitly define that it does support XMPP, but that your mileage for XMPP-compatibility on that type of client may vary.
jonas’
that’s a pity for them, but they can make that choice consciously if they want to
jonas’
but generally users don’t, and they end up with pidgin
Ge0rG
jonas’: for the record: I love your idea, please make it happen.
jonas’
Ge0rG, I’ll see if I can prepare a PR this weekend, but if I haven’t by sunday, feel free to ping me
jonas’
(I probably just forgot)
Ge0rG
"Multi-protocol clients that _also_ support XMPP but might not make a good XMPP experience a priority: ... PIDGIN ..."
nyco
to me, Pidgin feels more relaxed than other desktop/fat XMPP clients
Pidgin is much less "mapped" to the XMPP protocol, which is definitely a thing to do
to coroborate this, we have done user research on Converse, and the fact is regular users/people just don't like and don't want to "see" the procotol, that includes IDs, vocabulary, UX...
Ge0rG
What was the wording again? "Even less compatible" 😁
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jonas’
nyco, which is why pidgin is a terrible choice
Ge0rG
nyco: pidgin is great, if you don't need any of the XEPs of the last ten years.
Guus
nyco did you share that with JC? I bet he'd love to know about that.
jonas’
it still (sometimes) shows the resource of your peer on every f*ing message
nyco
yes
nyco
it's on the issues on GitHub
nyco
you can read it
nyco
it may be usefull for all clients developers here
Guus
👍
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nyco
protocol mapping is an illness for developers who don't consider UX
Guus
ok, I'm off to do work again
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Guus
thanks Jonas!
pep.
nyco, note that it's not what we're saying
nyco
the UX offered to users MUST NOT map the protocol
nyco
the criteria of single vs multi protocol is just irrelevant
nyco
for users
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nyco
it is our way of thinking on our community, and I do agree with the lack of XMPP support in Pidgin
nyco
Pidgin is great for users, please try to understand why
pep.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree
nyco
it's easier to use than Psi and Gajim and...
Ge0rG
nyco: a client that is easy to use but doesn't deliver messages reliably is HORRIBLE for users.
nyco
cool
nyco
so?
Ge0rG
otherwise they can use notepad.exe
nyco
people use it
nyco
I repeat
nyco
people use it
Ge0rG
say what?
nyco
wat
nyco
please do consider Pidgin is used for reasons, other than ours
jonas’
nyco, sure, and they’re free to do so
pep.
nyco, if you want to go the way of fixing pidgin, be my guest. That would be a great gift to the community. In the meantime, it is a horrible experience for users
jonas’
but it should not be the default choice
nyco
I don't use Pidgin, I don't recommand it, for the same reasons expressed here
nyco
rather fix the UX of XMPP apps
Seve
I honestly think people use Pidgin for the same reason they say Jabber
nyco
that seems a fair hypothesis
pep.
Seve, because they're stuck in the past? :P
nyco
please consider other hypothesis :)
nyco
also
nyco
maybe they like better Jabber for many other reasons
Ge0rG
because they don't realize how broken it is
nyco
maybe
nyco
so what?
nyco
if their experience is better than not feeling the brokenness
pep.
I don't understand this last message
nyco
do we _know_? who studied that? scientific research?
nyco
I know
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Ge0rG
nyco: there is empirical evidence that people realize the brokenness when using pidgin, but blame Jabber/XMPP for it.
nyco
Piding is here to stay, I'd like to know and understand why
nyco
in order to improve the situation
nyco
empirical is cool
Ge0rG
nyco: what about helping Pidgin natively support the most important XEPs instead? That would be time well spent
nyco
maybe that aspect of things is not the only one to consider
nyco
Ge0rG I guess so
Ge0rG
nyco: then please go on!
nyco
be my guest
nyco
I'd rather fix the XMPP apps
nyco
but that's my opinion
Ge0rG
nyco: then please go on with that, and we'll demote pidgin on the client list
nyco
because indeed, like most here I presume, Piding belongs to the past
nyco
wat
Ge0rG
nyco: the problem isn't pidgin being broken, the problem is pidgin isn't going to get fixed
Zash
I'm curious how a "Fix Pidgin" crowdfunding campain would work out
nyco
zach great idea
nyco
Zash sorry
Ge0rG
https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/6940 (Receipts) is 11 years old, https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/15508 (Carbons) "only" seven
nyco
:)
nyco
MAM for Psi as well :)
Ge0rG
the pidgin carbons ticket is in elementary school now!
nyco
hehehe
pep.
Ge0rG, "but there are plugins"?
pep.
Isn't everything fixed via plugins?
Ge0rG
From my point of view, Pidgin can be completely eradicated from xmpp.org
pep.
Or that's what I heard.
pep.
Somebody cared enough to make an OMEMO plugin. While basic XMPP support isn't even there
nyco
but still, users use Pidgin... :)
Ge0rG
nyco: and then they complain about xmpp being broken
pep.
If you want to figure out why, great. In the meantime I vote on not recommending it to avoid us the "XMPP is bad because $pidgin"
Ge0rG
Pidgin is actively damaging the XMPP ecosystem's popularity
Ge0rG
it's like poisoned milk. yes, people drink it because it's cheap, but then their babies die.
pep.
:D
David Cridland
I'd say the problem isn't Pidgin per-se - there are easy alternatives to give people - but Adium.
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Ge0rG
David Cridland: Adium is the pidgin of the rich 10%?
nyco
not Pidgin is also damaging the XMPP ecosystem's popularity, because users find this app better than others
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pep.
Is there a way to define a force-password-reset in a backwards compatible way? I'm thinking about <required/> stream feature (after <bind/>), but that won't be backwards compatible..
Ge0rG
pep.: send a message on login :|
pep.
A message? How do you force anything with that
Ge0rG
you can force the user.
Zash
SASL2?
pep.
I can prevent any message to be delivered until then, I guess
Ge0rG
suspend the account, where all messages will be blocked with a "change your password" error
Ge0rG
we have such a thing in prosody's mod_firewall ;)
pep.
That is so..
pep.
Zash, so no password reset until sasl2 is a thing?
Zash
pep.: I believe being able to do that is one of the goals of sasl2
pep.
sasl2 when?
Link Mauve
“10:23:16 nyco> it's on the issues on GitHub”, do you have a link to this study?
pep.
I saw it when it appeared
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pep.
for example: https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/1580
pep.
Even though it's great to have such a sample, it still is a pretty small sample imo
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nyco
no it is not small: it is a research on problems, and research sciences show that 5 persons is enough to make like 2/3 of the main problems emerge
nyco
not my opinion, basic UX research fundamentals
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nyco
that study was conducted a while ago, with real, unbiaised testing conditions
when we show Converse to enterprise prospects, in 5 or 10 min they just basically say the same things over and over again: these main problems are confirmed by a much larger sample
pep.
"unbiased" is a bit too much
pep.
While I might agree with your conclusion I don't agree any setup is "unbiased" :)
Ge0rG
everything is full of prejudices
Guus
nyco I'm to lazy to read the entire thing. Can you give an explicit example of what should change in Converse's UI based off that. I'm fully aware that given my background, I'm completely blind to this all. To me, it seems like a very generic chat client. It lists 'groupchats' and 'contacts', and a list of 'participants' in a groupchat. Doesn't that translate well to Average Joe?
David Cridland
FWIW, people are deely confused about groupchats, in my experience.
David Cridland
"deeply".
Guus
how's that? Everything is a potential group chat, nowadays?
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nyco
Guus create groupchats or add a contact... via a JID => people don't want to handle JIDs
nyco
they don't know what that is
nyco
they don't want to read
nyco
they don't want to learn
nyco
just describing the problem, because that is what we have researched
nyco
David Cridland I agree, most our XMPP apps/clients map the UX to the protocol, that is a huge problem for users
nyco
one of our goals as developers is to simplify and hide the complexity
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Ge0rG
nyco: somebody once made different "Easy XMPP" proposals to make JID handling more automatic
nyco
risky comparisons:
* browsers show almost nothing of HTTP, HTML, CSS, JS
* email apps show almost nothing of SMTP, POP, IMAP
nyco
Ge0rG I don't know who that guy is... :) I probably did support that initiative, still probably doing this :)
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Holger
* WhatsApp shows almost nothing of FunXMPP ...
nyco
(which is not that fun, btw... :) )
Ge0rG
Nothing is fun. Everything is sad.
pep.
WhatsApp is centralized and doesn't have the same problematics
Holger
I think most of the mentioned issues are unrelated to federation.
pep.
JID issues are very well related to federation
pep.
JID UX
Holger
Federation doesn't force the client to ask the user for a JID when creating a room.
pep.
You can just skip this in a centralized system
pep.
Holger: sure, not always
nyco
Holger yes, Converse issue emerged by this study show internal UX/UI issues; no real focus on federated things
pep.
I think there is a subset of the target that wants to be educated, just like mastodon users
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nyco
> JID issues are very well related to federation
can be related to people not easy with ID handling
can be related to people not having better, like lists, suggestions, etc.
pep.
nyco: your second suggestion calls for centralization
nyco
> JID issues are very well related to federation
centralised systems have IDs as well, but they just don't show them
pep.
Which might be fine in some cases (I'm not denying it)
nyco
pep. > nyco: your second suggestion calls for centralization
what suggestion?
Ge0rG
pep.: user discovery on a given server should be a thing on most corporate and private / family servers
Ge0rG
of course not exposed over s2s
pep.
Ge0rG: sure
pep.
I guess we all have different targets
Ge0rG
moving targets.
pep.
That's yet another issue
nyco
Ge0rG user directories may be exposed under some conditions, like Movim social networking
nyco
sure, if we only target the XMPP protocol fans, we'll get protocol fans as users
I thought you might want to "reach out"
pep.
I'm not talking about that no. I dont need to focus these they'll come by themselves if we don't push them away too much✎
pep.
I'm not talking about that no. I don't need to focus on these they'll come by themselves if we don't push them away too much ✏
nyco
wat
nyco
that, these, them: who?
pep.
I'm not talking about "XMPP protocol fans"
pep.
Your last message
!XSF_Martin
> risky comparisons:
> * browsers show almost nothing of HTTP, HTML, CSS, JS
> * email apps show almost nothing of SMTP, POP, IMAP
Email also requires to enter an email address, that's the same as entering a jid. So users should be used to this. Also when adding someone on facebook they must know their 'funny facebook name' which is also like an id.
pep.
Email is a bad comparison though. "Nobody" likes email. It's the thing you have to use for work
Ge0rG
!XSF_Martin: when adding somebody on facebook you'll never enter an ID, you'll just surf your friends, and then their friends, and then add 'em. Or, you know, see a big fat banner of "Are those your friends?"
David Cridland
Yeah, people get the email-like usernames for people. They don't for groupchats.
Guus
fwiw, Converse asks for the address (not 'JID') for a group chat. Do I understand you correctly nyco that the issue not the term ("JID" vs "Address") but the fact that we're asking for something specifically?
Ge0rG
Guus: I'm pretty sure we can completely get rid of JID display/input for channels and groups
Guus
similarly for adding contacts. It adds for "XMPP address". Perhaps that can be made more generic by asking for a 'username'?
Ge0rG
it's not about how to name the input box, is it?
Ge0rG
albeit, you know, "_Jabber_ ID"
Guus
Ge0rG that's what i don't understand
Ge0rG
Everything is horrible.
Guus
what's the suggested improvement? Changes to the label of input boxes? Elaborate directory services for people to pick from?
Guus
(both are probably desirable, but I'm trying to understand more of the root issue)
Guus
to distinguish between absolute no-no's, and nice-to-haves
!XSF_Martin
> !XSF_Martin: when adding somebody on facebook you'll never enter an ID, you'll just surf your friends, and then their friends, and then add 'em. Or, you know, see a big fat banner of "Are those your friends?"
I often hear people 'I'll add you on facebook' than the reply 'yeah, but don't search for my name as my name is Hans Hanssen there'
Seems funny sounding fake names are common there so it's also like an ID.
I don't know how many find others by searching friends friend lists.
Holger
Guus: Just auto-generate a room JID and hide it both from the user creating the room and from those invited into the room. Obviously won't work for public rooms that are supposed to be joined by JID, but should be done that way for private groups and 'team chat' IMO.
!XSF_Martin
Holger: Rely on muclumbus and only put a field to search for topics?
Ge0rG
Holger: for public rooms we already have MUC Search
Guus
Holger that makes sense (and I wasn't considering use-cases that included invites)
Ge0rG
Guus: there should be no way to enter private rooms except by invite
Seve
Guus, just check what Slack works, you just add people to a conversation and that is it.
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Guus
So, to come up with a real-world advise, Converse should:
a) Have an option to create a new "group chat" without any settings except for maybe a name and an avatar (that should create a private MUC on the home server of the user?)
b) Allow people to be invited in that new room by picking people from the roster (I think Converse already does that)
In Slack, a) cannot be done without providing at least one participant. So when you create a conversation is always selecting the participants (you can invite more people later on).
Guus
So this should drop the address input field, and add some kind of widget that allows you to add people from your roster?
Seve
yes
Seve
(Based on Slack of course)
Guus
(I'm mostly trying to understand the argument here, not making actual advice)
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Seve
nyco, maybe you can give your input here.
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nyco
again, we have only done user research on the _problems_
nyco
we have addressed a few, by ideation, user tests, iterations
nyco
we only addressed the most painful problems or the ones with most occurrences
nyco
for the "Create channel" UX, we narrowed down on a very simple form:
name, members via search, and avatar
plus the "advanced" options (hidden by default)
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nyco
advanced options:
this server (the domain of my JID) or another (not my JID domain)
Public or hidden
open or member-only
jonas’
what is the default for both public/hidden and open/members-only?
nyco
that represents three small iterations
nyco
we have not yet implemented it
pep.
nyco, and again, there are different targets. There is no one answer to rule them all
Ge0rG
pep.: there _is_ one answer to rule them all, and it is called Gajim!
pep.
:D
nyco
for the "Join channel":
search
list of local server public rooms or rooms I am a member of
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Ge0rG
"Please choose your JID with which to create the new Multi User Chat: ..."
pep.
Ge0rG, I am sure that was the original goal. I think it's slightly drifted from that since then
nyco
pep. you want to "reach out", so let's democratise the user of Jabber/XMPP by targeting larger crowds
Ge0rG
larger clouds?
Zash
Riot has an "Add room" button which opens a room search thing, which has a "Create room" button, which opens another dialog where you can (optionally) name the new room.
pep.
nyco, sure, but even "larger crowds"..
nyco
wat
pep.
My statement above stands even for larger crowds
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nyco
if we target protocol fans, or whatever you name us, the XMPP/Jabber community...
...then we'll top at a few thousands users worldwide, maybe tens of thousands
nyco
wat
nyco
I generally don't understand what you mean pep.
pep.
I am also confused with your statements tbh..
pep.
I'm not sure why you insist I want to target XMPP people
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nyco
wat
pep.
"if we target protocol fans, or whatever you name us, the XMPP/Jabber community..." what does that mean
nyco
wat
pep.
It's the second time you say this
pep.
If you're here to troll please be more explicit, I have more interesting things to do of my time
nyco
What???
Kev
I think we can safely assume nyco is not trying to troll.
nyco
look, how many Jabber/XMPP users worldwide today?
do we want to expand?
nyco
thx Kev
pep.
nyco, where did I answer "no" to this?
nyco
to whatN?
pep.
Your last message..
pep.
#contextishard
nyco
> thx Kev
?
:)
THAT's a troll :)
Ge0rG
Oh... my...
pep.
whatever..
pep.
I think I'm done
nyco
I know you want to expand, it's on your candidacy
Ge0rG
I want to expand too, and Christmas season is the best time to do it.
Ge0rGputs some cookies into the channel
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nyco
so what would be your projects/products next target groups?
what do they see? live? hear?
what problems do they have with IM in general?
what problems do they have with your IM?
that's a start
nyco
then you go on ideation, meaning you design and user-test many many possible solutions
nyco
and you iterate the best
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Ge0rG
we hardly manage to user-test one possible solution per project.
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nyco
there are plenty of low cost techniques to perform plenty of tests
nyco
hint: no need for code
nyco
well, not always
nyco
hint: start with a paper and a pencil
nyco
you can get really fast, in a fair amount of time and effort
Ge0rG
a paper, a pencil, and twenty users without knowledge of xmpp
Ge0rG
..from different ethnic groups and financial backgrounds
nyco
no, 5 users, in order to spot the biggest issues
Ge0rG
there used to be a time when I asked unexperienced people to install and configure yaxim. Unfortunately, those were either family members or coworkers, the opposite of a diverse group
nyco
right, close friends/family are greatly biaised
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nyco
also, a full install + use is a very large test, consuming a lot of time
Ge0rG
nyco: you'd be surprised.
nyco
I am always surprised by user tests, that's why I do a lot
Ge0rG
installing an android app and getting a first contact is a matter of a few minutes
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nyco
I know
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nyco
if you optimised the first use journey, then very good, and congrats
Guus
nyco My issue is largely that I (personally) don't want to understand all of the larger context - I just want you to tell me what to change in the UI / UX 🙂
Guus
you / anyone that _does_ understand the context.
nyco
the pixel, here! :)
Guus
well, yes.
nyco
hehehe
Guus
UX is not a democracy.
pep.
What is.
pep.
You have 4 hours
nyco
sure, that's why there are devs on one side (backend, frontend, etc.) and designers (UI, UX, information architecture, etc.) and marketers and user researchers (spot and evaluate market issues, segment target groups, test core message, etc.)
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Guus
right. So all of the context that you're posting to this page is waaaay TMI for me. You're loosing me in the general terms that you're using.
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Guus
I'm happy to accept suggestions, but you need to dumb it down for me 🙂
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nyco
right, I was showing the process
nyco
ok
nyco
clear
Guus
(not sure if that goes for everyone here, by the way)
Guus
But I've long ago accepted that the world of UI / UX is not for me.
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nyco
that's often the case for devs
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nyco
the funny thing is that old-style marketers feel like designers' user research is kind of the same as Marketing's "market research"
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Neustradamus
Ge0rG: After a lot of efforts, Pidgin can be forgotten, no?
Zash
Wasn't a plan to have compliance buttons to shame Pidgin with?
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Chobbes
Is there a channel that would be appropriate for asking questions about the XMPP protocol? I am currently developing an XMPP server in Haskell, and it would be mighty nice if I had a place to ask clarifying questions 🙂