XSF Discussion - 2019-11-20

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  153. nyco a question: https://fosstodon.org/web/statuses/103166428834063205 @sofia@chaos.social @xmpp hi there! i was wondering if XMPP has any standards or plans for self-verifying IDs? like if my public key (or it's hash) is a4244aa43ddd6e3ef9e64bb80f4ee952f68232aa008d3da9c78e3b627e5675c8 then my id could be a4244aa43ddd6e3ef9e64bb80f4ee952f68232aa008d3da9c78e3b627e5675c8@jabber.ccc.de and so everyone who knows my id automatically has a verified, secure channel to me.. sofia @sofia@chaos.social oh, the same question goes to @matrix , too! it may even be more relevant to #matrix because i think they have a single default e2e encryption scheme, unlike XMPP. #selfVerifyingID
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  156. !XSF_Martin Like adding your omemo ID to your jid in conversations?
  157. !XSF_Martin xmpp:info@mdosch.de?omemo-sid-709870363=951898c88f683d55e7fe74dc9b8980489162d251b140bd9e5ccd8d28f7f7dc70
  158. !XSF_Martin If you add me with this link in conversations you'll automatically have my omemo key verified. Don't know if it's included in the omemo xep and other programs support this too.
  159. !XSF_Martin Maybe Daniel can clarify.
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  166. Ge0rG !XSF_Martin: I think the underlying idea is to use your key-id as an identifier instead of the localpart of the JID
  167. Ge0rG if followed consequently, the domain part will be merely a routing identifier, i.e. "I'm currently holding my temporary state at jabber.ccc.de, but tomorrow it might be fancyjabs.biz"
  168. !XSF_Martin Where is this more unique/verified than your jid?
  169. Ge0rG The Matrix folks are in the process of retrofitting this mechanism after they found out that having a server responsible for your identity is a "dumb" idea ;)
  170. !XSF_Martin Oh, so that would need some sort of registry?
  171. Ge0rG !XSF_Martin: no. it would need servers to verify your proof of key ownership
  172. Ge0rG !XSF_Martin: but the resulting protocol would be a different subset of Zooko's triangle
  173. Ge0rG <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle>
  174. !XSF_Martin As a self hoster my domain and my jid on my website is proof enough for me. 😂
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  176. Ge0rG nyco: does that help in answering?
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  179. nyco nope, I don't understand this discussion, sorry... :) I suggest some of you (who have fediverse accounts) engage the conversations, or you suggest me a text answer that I will post as @xmpp
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  186. Ge0rG nyco: text suggestion: In the federated XMPP IM network, user identity is always enforced by the respective servers, allowing for human-readable identifiers, and there are no current plans to change this. You could create an overlay network, where user accounts would authenticate to a server by their keypair, and the username part would be a hash or fingerprint resulting from this. To be secure, that approach would require that a client signs every piece of information that is stored on the server or transmitted to other systems, and each other system will have to verify that signature. The domain part of your ID would become merely a "drop box" for the data sent to you, as you could re-register with your key pair on any other domain, and XMPP would be just a routing layer for your overlay network with your currently-used server as a single point of failure. Eventually, you will realize that XMPP is not a perfect routing layer for such a protocol, and that there are better protocols for the requested traits of Zooko's triangle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle>
  187. Ge0rG I hope this take isn't too cynical
  188. flow at some point you end with the "dead drops" that vuvuzela.io uses
  189. Ge0rG Vuvuzela: > Vuvuzela is a private chat application that hides metadata, including who you chat with and when you are chatting. Also Vuvuzela: > Create your Vuvuzela account [_] I am not a robot (reCAPTCHA)
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  192. Ge0rG Only reinforces me in my opinion not to trust things hosted on .IO domains
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  198. David Cridland nyco, I think you touch on the answer there. Using hashes as addresses (which was first discussed for email, incidentally) has problems because you end up with a fixed (ie, non-agile) encryption mechanism. Moreover, what if a key is compromised? To have access to the key ends up implicitly granting access to the identity, so if your key is changed then so must your address. XMPP has tried overloading portions of the address with meanings other than routing; it really is a painful problem when those meanings diverge.
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  201. David Cridland nyco, An alternative solution is a secure method for binding a key to an identity. X.509, for example, uses a trusted third party to verify this, PGP uses a web of trust instead for much the same result. Many E2EE solutions use an-person verification solution (QR codes, fingerprints, etc), or simply "leap of faith", where you prove consistency rather than identity.
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  206. David Cridland nyco, FWIW, I don't think the question refers to Zooko's Triangle, since the question doesn't care about human readable names, but that notwithstanding, Ge0rG's answer is correct.
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  216. Ge0rG While the question does not refer to it, I still think that it's a valuable hint in understanding the problem space.
  217. Ge0rG Even though I disagree with the Wikipedia list of things that have "solved" Zooko's
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  223. Guus What's the most up-to-date specification that we have on message deletion?
  224. Guus or ephemeral messages?
  225. Guus There was some discussion on this a while back, but did that ever make it into a XEP?
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  227. Zash Guus: You mean actual deletion/retraction or the whole routing 2.0 thing?
  228. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0424.html and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html are new
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  230. Guus 424 is what I'm after
  231. Guus thanks
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  272. Link Mauve “09:14:13 Ge0rG> Only reinforces me in my opinion not to trust things hosted on .IO domains”, yet you use poez.io!
  273. Ge0rG origin git://git.poez.io/poezio (fetch) Damn it.
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  308. pep. Ge0rG, re hash as localpart, there could be non-trivial infrastructure added (DHT etc.) to allow this, and then a different bind method etc.
  309. pep. The rest of the addressing would be the same
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  311. pep. It's not done at the moment, but un the same way we now have a CA XEP we could have a DHT xep :P
  312. Ge0rG pep.: you'd only lose one of the basic aspects of XMPP
  313. pep. how so
  314. Ge0rG that servers are responsible for managing accounts on them
  315. Ge0rG a completely different question: a friend of mine is looking to integrate with Google Firebase via XMPP, and I can't even understand how Google is making use of XMPP for that API from the official docs
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  318. Ge0rG are there any resources for people who *do* know how XMPP works?
  319. ralphm https://fosdem.org/2020/news/2019-11-19-accepted-stands/
  320. ralphm yay
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  322. Zash Woo
  323. Guus > but who will be where will be announced closer to the event.
  324. pep. Ge0rG, servers could still be responsible for managing accounts on them. A user could choose where to have their account managed, and could also easily decide to move them around
  325. Guus Interesting to find out if we get more space this year!
  326. pep. (that's one possible answer to <moved/>)
  327. Zash People lose their keys. Massive pain to have a key be your identity.
  328. pep. Thaat's their issue, and it's always been
  329. pep. They currently lose their password it's the same story
  330. jonas’ a password can be changed
  331. Zash Has Summit 2020 dates been set?
  332. jonas’ if your identity is tied to your key ...
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  334. pep. jonas’, the operator has the responsability to decide if they allow giving access to a potential attacker :)
  335. pep. I prefer to leave this responsability to the user themselves tbh
  336. pep. Zash, yep, before FOSDEM
  337. Zash checks https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24
  338. pep. it's been twitter somewhere and on the wiki yeah
  339. pep. it's been tweeted somewhere and on the wiki yeah
  340. pep. ralphm, any idea why Matrix is not included in the realtime lounge again?
  341. pep. Why they can be separate from everyone else
  342. pep. Next year can we have XMPP splitted as well if so?
  343. Zash Marketing reasons I assume
  344. pep. Why can't we have marketing as well
  345. Guus pep. Probably history: the Realtime Lounge predates Matrix.
  346. Guus at the time, joining forces gave better chances of all related projects being accepted.
  347. pep. That doesn't really explain it to me. "Hey Matrix! We're going to put you in the realtime lounge", done.
  348. Guus That suggests that Fosdem organisation re-groups they applicants.
  349. pep. I already raised this "issue" a few months ago fwiw
  350. Guus The realtime lounge is being asked for by a group of related projects. Matrix did their own request.
  351. David Cridland Ge0rG, The Firebase XMPP interface is actually a legacy one, which is why the docs are sparse.
  352. Guus We could ask them to join us, or we could ask for our one spot
  353. pep. Guus, maybe we need to do the opposite then? Request a slot for XMPP itself
  354. Ge0rG David Cridland: what's the official FCM API if you need upstream messages?
  355. David Cridland I thought it was HTTP/2 for the shinies - you need messages from device to backend, do you?
  356. Ge0rG I already know from Android development that you need at least one full-time developer just to keep up with Google changing APIs
  357. Ge0rG David Cridland: exactly
  358. Guus pep. yes we could do that. I'm not sure if that improves our chances of getting a spot though.
  359. Seve If we can apply to both, I guess is fine. Otherwise we would risk it and lose the spot entirely, is it?
  360. David Cridland Ge0rG, Send a normal push and then have the app callback with an XMPP session? :-)
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  362. pep. Guus, well Matrix is getting their own.. I'm not sure why not
  363. David Cridland Also, didn't know there was Saturday-only and Sunday-only stands.
  364. Ge0rG David Cridland: was that ironic?
  365. Guus because there's a status quo. Also, other projects in the realtime lounge put in quite some effort to get things organized.
  366. ralphm pep. we can totally have XMPP marketing there, and we've done that since forever
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  368. David Cridland Ge0rG, Not entirely. But I don't know that it's a terrible idea - I find the feedback from Push pretty poor at the best of times.
  369. ralphm Doing it as the Realtime Lounge just gave us a better chance of being accepted, than each individual project (XMPP, Jitsi, other RTC projects) on their own
  370. Ge0rG David Cridland: https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/android/upstream clearly says that you need FCM XMPP for that
  371. David Cridland Ge0rG, Oh, still? Well, that's good I suppose.
  372. Ge0rG David Cridland: feedback from your developers doing Push regarding reliability / real-time?
  373. pep. ralphm, people see "Matrix" and they don't see "XMPP"
  374. pep. We're not playing on the same field
  375. Zash pep.: XMPP isn't a FOSS project
  376. ralphm Zash: the dates were announced even by e-mail on several mailinglists on Aug 11, including summit@.
  377. David Cridland Ge0rG, You might be able to make some sense out of the Python asyncio FCM library, I know that uses XMPP.
  378. ralphm pep. on the schedule you mean, yes, that is true. On the floor, they totally see XMPP.
  379. pep. Zash, that's another problem sure. XMPP unlike Matrix is not a standard, an implementation, a company, etc. all at the same time
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  382. Guus Note that we get a lot of benefit from bundling forces. Saul does most of the organizing and often is manning the devroom too.
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  384. Guus Our exposure on the floor is pretty good
  385. Ge0rG David Cridland: let's move this into private chat. I'm currently looking at Smack as an FCM client library
  386. Guus (we could improve the look and feel, but there's definitely a XMPP presence - basically all of the lounge is XMPP)
  387. pep. Ge0rG, I think our exposure is pretty bad, but that's another topic
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  389. pep. In the corner where nobody goes
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  391. Guus Yeah, we've asked for more space in a different location
  392. Guus but that wouldn't change by going alone - if anything, we'd get less space.
  393. Guus but that wouldn't change by going at it alone - if anything, we'd get less space.
  394. David Cridland FWIW, +1 to different location - we're very much in the corner at the moment. But also quite happy as a group.
  395. Guus For years, XMPP effectively took all of the floor space that is ment to be shared with a few projects - so we're not doing bad there.
  396. Guus Yeah, the location thing has, again, be asked for explicitly. But that's out of our hands.
  397. Zash It's a pretty cozy corner FWIW
  398. Guus The corner isn't to bad, but it now has to many stands in it
  399. David Cridland ralphm, Oh, my wife says to ask you for green hoodies this year.
  400. pep. Who decides for the hoodies btw? Can anybody see the swag before it gets printed?
  401. Guus So, by doing our own application, we'd reduce the chance of being accepted, run the risk of getting less space on the floor, will have to do our own organizing (especially for the Dev room). Only to get 'XMPP' printed on the folders? For me, that's not enough added value.
  402. Guus pep. we desperately want people to provide content there!
  403. Guus last year, Dave and Ralph came up with designs
  404. David Cridland I didn't!
  405. Guus but please, suggest stuff
  406. Guus the bottle openers were yours!
  407. Zash And as noted, FOSDEM is more for FOSS projects, which XMPP isn't.
  408. David Cridland Oh, the text, in which I missed a better gag.
  409. Guus See, we need better content pep. - dwd has been failing us! 😃
  410. David Cridland The original (grey) hoodies were my design, though.
  411. Zash Classic
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  413. David Cridland I think we should do pens and notebooks if we can, must be a "messaging" joke there.
  414. Zash Letter openers?
  415. Zash For extra fun at the airport
  416. Guus empty cans with strings.
  417. Zash Haha
  418. Guus we'll brand them "Matrix" >;-)
  419. David Cridland Nice.
  420. Guus back to fixing bugs left by on 'dave' in our codebase
  421. Guus back to fixing bugs left by one 'dave' in our codebase
  422. David Cridland A new t-shirt design would be good, if we could think of one.
  423. David Cridland checks name
  424. David Cridland Can't be me then.
  425. Guus stream management.
  426. David Cridland That was Jonny.
  427. Guus fun things happen when a client reconnects using the same resource
  428. David Cridland Oh, interesting.
  429. pep. Guus, isn't that what is done nowadays? :x
  430. pep. (using the same resource)
  431. Zash Replacing the previous one instead of resuming it?
  432. pep. ah
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  436. Guus There's a couple of things going wrong. Long story short: the new session is kicked after the TTL for the original session elapses.
  437. Guus But with various periodic tasks, and behavior different between clients, and a requirement of a previous session to have existed, made this hard to reproduce 🙂
  438. Zash Reference to the resource instead of the session itself?
  439. ralphm pep., I shared my designs with several people involved with organising for the Summit / FOSDEM before they went to print
  440. Guus Zash yup
  441. Guus ralphm Do we still have orange ones? I ruined mine 😞
  442. ralphm David Cridland, suggestion of 'Green Hoodies' noted.
  443. Zash Green like the logo?
  444. David Cridland ralphm, It'd be quite fun to have a rainbox of colours available.
  445. Zash Logo colors?
  446. ralphm Guus: a couple, but maybe not all sizes. I'm not at home right now, but can check.
  447. Zash Photo shoot with people arranged in the shape of the logo, with proper colors?
  448. Guus David Cridland pretty expensive too, if you want to do them in all sizes.
  449. Guus ralphm thanks
  450. ralphm David Cridland, the problem with many color options is that I would want to know upfront who wants which size/color.
  451. David Cridland FWIW, I have to admit I don't much like the sleeve print. Perhaps I'm too old and uncool for that.
  452. MattJ Potentially anyone travelling from the UK with merchandise for sale at FOSDEM may be in an interesting situation next year
  453. ralphm David Cridland, quite
  454. David Cridland cries
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  456. Link Mauve MattJ, nah, https://twitter.com/julianpopov/status/1185664196178042880
  457. ralphm MattJ, why? You'd leave before brexit, but come back after :-D
  458. Link Mauve The XMPP logo we printed on the flyers for Capitole du Libre last weekend was much darker and less shiny than on a computer screen. :(
  459. MattJ Would that make me an exporter from the EU??
  460. Link Mauve Paper is hard.
  461. ralphm Also, the better plan recently has been shipping it to my address, as we also have a van for the event.
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  464. Ge0rG ralphm: add some XMPP-branded sweets and you can spray "free candy inside" on the van door
  465. Guus LOL
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  467. ralphm Yeah, our region is market leader in that stuff. Should be easy.
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  469. ralphm Reminds me of the Breaking Bad session at RealtimeConf: https://vimeo.com/77799055
  470. ralphm Oh, how I miss RealtimeConf
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  472. MattJ Indeed
  473. pep. hah that's a cool session
  474. Zash pep., did you have Prosody stickers btw?
  475. pep. I did
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  477. pep. There's like 5 left
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  481. ralphm pep., 'cool' doesn't even begin to describe this. This was a conference with its own novel, graphic novel, and play + soundtrack (played live in between the sessions)
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  483. ralphm puts on https://benmichel.bandcamp.com/
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  489. pep. nice
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  529. pep. thoughts about having the muc service also provide an http upload/jingle component or sth to upload files? For when the user server doesn't provide it.
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  531. pep. Maybe there are times where it makes more sense to have it on the muc at all rather than the user's server.
  532. Ge0rG pep.: I totally agree. It's also a minor privacy leak to see your private server's HTTP URL in a MUC
  533. Holger has joined
  534. Zash pep.: Not opposed. Authz via affiliation or such?
  535. pep. Sure
  536. Ge0rG Zash: via occupancy?
  537. Ge0rG Maybe the MUC domain should just allow the 0363 IQs to all JIDs that are joined to at least one MUC
  538. MattJ Interesting that you could then upload the files to a MUC service and then post the links elsewhere
  539. Zash O(rooms) lookup?
  540. LNJ has left
  541. pep. MattJ, I guess that's "already an issue" anyway? you can create an anonymous user on most public servers and upload something there
  542. pep. Or even just any real account
  543. MattJ Sure
  544. Zash If it's tied to a single room then it could automatically be broadcast on upload too
  545. Ge0rG Good luck figuring out the race conditions between the sending client's message and that
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  590. nyco https://brandimage.io/insight/XMPP?source=reddit
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  592. nyco https://brandimage.io/insight/XMPP?source=hn
  593. pep. "A web page is slowing down your browser. What would you like to do?"
  594. nyco indeed, it may be slow weird on my old computer and tab-overloaded browsers I don't have this warning
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