XSF Discussion - 2019-11-28

  1. David Cridland

    pep., Youd prefer a closed source one?

  2. edhelas

    small question regarding SDP => Jingle mapping, there's actually nothing to map a=msid: and a=msid-semantic: ?

  3. edhelas

    it's webrtc related things http://www.rtcbits.com/2014/04/what-does-msid-attribute-in-sdp-mean.html

  4. edhelas


  5. edhelas

    so it seems that's it not mandatory 🤔

  6. pep.

    David Cridland, ha ha.

  7. David Cridland

    FWIW, I genuinely prefer that we have some companies making money in a closed-source way on top of our technologies. It means that XMPP isn't just a second-rate thing that Open Source can use because it has to - it's the first chocie for many cases.

  8. David Cridland

    edhelas, Say fippo's name three times while facing away from a mirror.

  9. pep.

    David Cridland, I wasn't involving proprietary software in my thinking above, at all. Just that free software is doomed with NIH, or simply rewriting for educational purposes, but then it becomes semi-viable and some people start to use it and..

  10. pep.

    I think we've got enough diversity in servers

  11. pep.

    companies can rewrite their own stack if they want that's not my money

  12. pep.

    In the free software world I could get contributors instead, if people weren't rewriting their own, for example.

  13. Link Mauve

    edhelas, since it applies to ssrc, shouldn’t it go in the XEP-0339 container?

  14. Link Mauve

    And thus no new XEP required.

  15. edhelas

    not sure it applies to ssrc

  16. edhelas

    there's actually things for srrc

  17. edhelas


  18. Link Mauve

    Well, msid is even explicitly listed in XEP-0339 examples.

  19. edhelas

    a=msid:{ea3e91c3-c926-4c81-a44d-ca55607404bb} != a=ssrc:1656081975 msid:MLTJKIHilGn71fNQoszkQ4jlPTuS5vJyKVIv MLTJKIHilGn71fNQoszkQ4jlPTuS5vJyKVIva0

  20. edhelas

    no ?

  21. Guus

    Unless I've missed a scheduling thingy, it's about time for the first meeting of the new Board?

  22. ralphm bangs gavel

  23. Guus


  24. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  25. Seve


  26. ralphm

    Welcome new Board! And anyone from the floor!

  27. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  28. Seve is here!

  29. Guus


  30. ralphm

    MattJ, pep. ?

  31. MattJ


  32. Guus

    pep. ?

  33. Guus

    (additional notification thingy attached)

  34. ralphm

    Hope that pep. will join us soonish.

  35. ralphm

    In any case, my primary point is the appointment of the Officers of the Corporation.

  36. Guus

    I have nothing to add - Peter suggested we'd look into the savedotorg.org thingy (which I added to Trello)

  37. ralphm


  38. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  39. nyco


  40. Guus

    Also, given that pep. is not here - we might want to check if this day/time is still good for everyone

  41. nyco

    I'll do that :)

  42. ralphm

    Thanks nyco!

  43. Guus

    Thanks nyco

  44. ralphm

    Guus: indeed

  45. ralphm

    2. Election Results

  46. ralphm

    As we've seen, our kind Secretary announced the results of the new Board and Council. I'd like to take the opportunity to say thanks to nyco for his work on Board in the previous term!

  47. ralphm

    And welcome pep. as new Director!

  48. Guus


  49. nyco

    congrats pep.! :)

  50. ralphm

    Also, I understand that jonas’ is the new Chair of Council, and as such will liason with us, and should have been included in the Board mailing list.

  51. Guus

    _should have_ - did we check?

  52. Guus

    I'm not even sure who manages the list

  53. Guus

    iteam? secretary?

  54. ralphm

    I had a conversaion with David Cridland and he mentioned this in passing. I'm sure MattJ can verify

  55. nyco

    FYI, I'm out of the list, so someone did something

  56. ralphm

    3. Appointment of Officers

  57. nyco

    might mean the right things are done

  58. Guus


  59. ralphm

    According to our bylaws, the corporation has 4 named Officers (and we didn't name others outside of the bylaws AFAIK).

  60. David Cridland

    jonas’ was duly elected Chair of the XMPP Council indeed.

  61. MattJ

    I can check after the meeting - traditionally Alex updates the lists when necessary, but I don't know if that has included updating it for the Council chair, I think that's been done by $someone on Board

  62. ralphm

    These are: Chair, Executive Director, Secretary, and Threasurer.

  63. ralphm

    Each officer shall hold office for a period of one year or until his or her successor is elected and qualified or until his or her earlier resignation or removal.

  64. ralphm

    So we should (re)appoint our Officers.

  65. ralphm

    I suggest we ask Alex and Peter if they'd like to add another year to their respective roles as Secretary and Treasurer.

  66. Alex

    I volunteer again

  67. ralphm

    Then I move Alex gets reappointed as Secretary.

  68. ralphm


  69. Guus


  70. ralphm

    (Thanks Alex!)

  71. MattJ


  72. Seve


  73. nyco

    congrats Alex for your election! :)

  74. ralphm

    Motion carries! Yay!

  75. ralphm

    I'll send out an e-mail to Peter

  76. Guus

    Can someone remind me what we did last year wrt ED?

  77. Guus

    Peter resigned. We didn't appoint anyone else.

  78. MattJ

    Waving of hands?

  79. Guus

    there was discussion.

  80. ralphm

    For Executive Director, we've had a vacancy since Peter stepped down, and the previous Board has chosen to not actively look to fill that vacancy.

  81. Guus

    I don't recall the outcome.

  82. ralphm

    This means that in practice, the Executive Committee is just our Chair.

  83. Guus

    Do we want to put out a call for candidates?

  84. Guus

    Whch probably should come with a job description

  85. MattJ

    which we failed at last time

  86. ralphm

    The discussion last year suggested we didn't have an immediate need for this role to be filled, and I don't think that situation has changed. I'd be happy to have that discussion again, but not in this meeting, probably.

  87. Seve

    Did we have the need to fulfill the position?

  88. MattJ

    There is the description in the byelaws, and there is the reality that when Peter acted as ED, he basically did anything that needed doing

  89. Seve

    What ralphm said

  90. Guus

    ok, let's table it, to use a confusing term to Brits and Americans.

  91. ralphm


  92. ralphm

    Noted. That leaves the Chair.

  93. ralphm

    It is too bad that pep. isn't here today, and I'm happy to carry this over to next week, if needed.

  94. MattJ

    I think we have done that previously when we didn't have full attendance

  95. ralphm

    However, I am willing to stand again.

  96. ralphm

    MattJ, right.

  97. Guus

    I have no idea if pep. intends to stand

  98. ralphm

    Ok, let's take that to next week then.

  99. Guus


  100. ralphm

    4. ISOC's sale of PIR to Ethos

  101. ralphm

    This is about the .org registry.

  102. ralphm

    The XSF has been a long time holder of .org domains, including jabber.org and xmpp.org.

  103. ralphm

    I've try to read all the discussions around it, but found it hard to take a position. At least for now.

  104. ralphm

    Any opinions?

  105. Guus

    On the one hand, I'm personally not thinking that this has the impact that some make it out to have.

  106. MattJ

    I haven't done extensive research into it, but I feel like I understand the issue enough - if you have followed discussions, are there particular reasons you're not keen on taking a position?

  107. nyco

    if this helps: on linuxfr.org we think that the promise is broken, so we sent the email also we are considering buying several years of .org and we might consider the website name change

  108. Guus

    On the other hand, as it's Peter that brought this up, I'm inclined to believe that there's more to this than I now realize - and since it's Peter, I'm willing to accept that this might be a suitable topic for the XSF to speak out against.

  109. Seve

    I haven't been able to catch up with the topic, I'll try to do it during the weekend.

  110. ralphm

    I'm not sure if we have enough information to take a position on it, and what that position should be.

  111. ralphm

    I haven't talked to Peter myself, but did have a chat with dwd.

  112. nyco

    btw, CommTeam hat on: should I include this info in the next newsletter? (that I close tomorrow)

  113. ralphm

    nyco, were we to decide on a statement, then yes

  114. nyco


  115. Guus

    If we're not yet ready to take a position, we shouldn't communicate anything.

  116. Guus


  117. nyco


  118. David Cridland

    FWIW, I know a number of people to some degree on the ISOC Board, and I find it hard to believe it's the clear-cut case of Evil that it's being presented as.

  119. Guus

    So, we kick this to next week, giving us time to read up more?

  120. Guus

    Maybe start something on the mailinglist, for member feedback?

  121. ralphm

    dwd crafted this piece of text which I would be willing to issue, but nothing beyond: "The XMPP Standards Foundation is a long-term holder of a ".org" domain, and has noted the comments from the community over ISOC's sale of PIR to Ethos with some concern. At this time, the information is limited, and the XSF, while refraining from any position over the matter, will continue to pay close attention to the situation as more information emerges."

  122. ralphm

    I don't think we have to involve the membership at this point.

  123. Guus

    That's very loudly saying that you're not saying anything.

  124. ralphm

    Yes, it says: we're paying attention

  125. Zash

    "We're watching you"

  126. MattJ

    I'm not sure I see the point, but wouldn't object to it

  127. Guus

    Yeah, but given that 4 out of 5 directors didn't even read up... are we (paying attention)?

  128. MattJ

    if others feel it's valuable

  129. Guus

    sorry, 3 out of 5

  130. Guus

    unsure what pep did.

  131. ralphm

    Ok, in that case, unless we change our mind before the deadline tomorrow (on list), we can take it into next week.

  132. ralphm

    5. AOB

  133. ralphm


  134. MattJ

    None here

  135. Guus

    none for me

  136. Seve

    None here

  137. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  138. ralphm

    Provisionally +1W.

  139. Seve


  140. Guus


  141. ralphm

    I will send a message to Board, and ask pep. if he has concerns with this timeslot.

  142. ralphm

    7. Close.

  143. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  144. ralphm bangs gavel

  145. Seve

    Thank you!

  146. nyco

    https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/n3w9nmiegh-xsf-board-2019-11-28 please proof-read and edit

  147. Guus


  148. MattJ


  149. Guus

    I've edited some, nyco

  150. Guus

    tx for taking it up

  151. Guus disappears

  152. nyco

    thx Guus

  153. nyco

    sending the minutes

  154. nyco


  155. jonas’

    oh, TIL I get to be on board@

  156. jonas’

    ralphm, if you’re still around, can you give me privileges in council@?

  157. Guus

    jonas’ you might need Alex or MattJ for that

  158. jonas’

    Guus, according to the current occupants in council@, ralphm does have owner privileges

  159. jonas’

    as does Kev

  160. ralphm

    Oh, sure

  161. Alex

    I sent all the changes to Kev after the voting. And he applied them for me. I don't have the keys to the admin interface

  162. Kev

    jonas’ is Council chair is he?

  163. Kev

    I'm out of the loop already :)

  164. Kev

    If so, tell me what mail address you want and I'll do it Right Now.

  165. jonas’

    Kev, I am

  166. jonas’


  167. jonas’

    as you can find on various sources around the XSF infrastructure (if you want to confirm)

  168. pep.

    ! Sorry I got stuck where I was without my computer, and my phone has been dead for a week..

  169. pep.

    That term is starting great :)

  170. pep. reading now

  171. pep.

    Thanks anyway for everybody who pinged me, I got ~5 private messages :P

  172. ralphm


  173. ralphm

    No worries pep.. Sometimes life just happens.

  174. pep.

    It seems I still can't add items to the board?

  175. pep.

    Can somebody add me? ralphm?

  176. pep.

    Or am I doing it wrong?

  177. pep.

    (it doesn't look the same as the SCAM board to me)

  178. pep.

    https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2019/11/isoc-pir-ethos-capital-deal-timeline/ for a timeline. < ralphm, Guus, Seve

  179. pep.

    (hint: it stinks)

  180. MattJ

    Irony in linking to that source in particular: Private Internet Access just recently announced and had to defend their own acquisition

  181. MattJ

    As far as I can tell the problems are all centred around things that *may* potentially happen in the future. I also don't see how ISOC are better stewards of .org if they (unanimously) want this transaction to proceed

  182. Zash

    Good point

  183. debacle

    Too bad, I don't have any money in Ethos Capital. They are expected to increase .org prices by 10 % per year. Which is not so much, that anybody would move away from it. But it is much higher than the 3.5 % global inflation rate. .org sells at 10 USD now. In then years that will be 25.94 USD instead of 14.10 USD, 84 % higher than inflation suggests! I wasn't around when Gutenberg invented printing and now I'm out, when Ethos Capital reinvented printing money :-)

  184. debacle

    Too bad, I don't have any money in Ethos Capital. They are expected to increase .org prices by 10 % per year. Which is not so much, that anybody would move away from it. But it is much higher than the 3.5 % global inflation rate. .org sells at 10 USD now. In ten years that will be 25.94 USD instead of 14.10 USD, 84 % higher than inflation suggests! I wasn't around when Gutenberg invented printing and now I'm out, when Ethos Capital reinvented printing money :-)

  185. lovetox

    there are 10 million registered .org domains

  186. lovetox

    so they are looking at 100 million revenue

  187. jonas’

    to be fair, being domain registrar was a way of printing money from the start, wasn’t it?

  188. Ge0rG


  189. waqas

    How much is creating a new TLD these days? Wasn't it on the order of $100k?

  190. jonas’


  191. waqas

    I'm curious how much the total cost is, if you take any required infrastructure and such into account

  192. waqas

    200k is well within 'moderately well paid individual' range

  193. Zash

    Serving the zone and managing a way to update it?

  194. waqas

    I'm curious if there are any requirements like you must have a registered org of at least this size, etc

  195. Zash

    waqas: On the registrar? Registry?

  196. Zash

    Oh, creating a new one?

  197. waqas

    Yes, like .zash

  198. !XSF_Martin

    Then you can have hail.zash

  199. Zash

    I don't have 2 MSEK to drop on that

  200. pep.

    Zash, you're missing the point of investments! Everybody is going to love it you have a chance to make a lot of money

  201. Zash

    You mean like investing some potatoes now and getting more potatoes later?

  202. pep.


  203. lovetox

    .org is though one of the top TLD

  204. lovetox

    most country-code TLDs, will not even go into the millions

  205. lovetox

    for example .ru has 5.7 million domains registered