XSF Discussion - 2019-12-06

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  8. pep. Thanks for the meeting/minutes. As I mentioned on the non-public board list, I was at the protests in france :)
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  123. edhelas :)
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  159. edhelas Movim 0.16.1 released https://nl.movim.eu/?node/pubsub.movim.eu/Movim/cdfc0a4c-3459-4d3b-8c15-08994810d54e
  160. Guus congrats!
  161. Guus out of personal interest: does that now work with the latest Openfire? iirc, we've fixed the issues that caused interop problems
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  163. Zash Do we have all the server devs in one of the channelrooMUCs?
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  165. edhelas Guus didn't tried with Openfire recently
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  167. Guus Zash this one? 🙂
  168. Guus jdev?
  169. Zash Guus, Holger, other server devs: We Prosody devs have been thinking about phasing out Dialback, for reasons written down in https://issues.prosody.im/1471 Thoughts?
  170. Zash (Metarelated: We need that Hats XEP implemented)
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  173. Guus I was going to show you how bad of an idea of that was, because over half of my s2s connections use dialback - only to find out that hardly any do.
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  176. Guus Still, I'd not be a fan, as it'd break backwards compatibility. I'm constantly talking to people that are running server versions that are pretty old.
  177. Guus (even those _could_ also do certificate based auth, etc, etc)
  178. Zash I was going to ask why the only Dialback connections I have are to jabber.org, dwd and an openfire
  179. Guus Why is Openfire's (I'm assuming xmpp.igniterealtime.org) using Dialback? It has valid certs.
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  182. Zash Why is it not offering me SASL EXTERNAL? I have valid certs?
  183. Guus we're running something alpha - buggydibugbug?
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  185. Guus also, we're currently rewriting all of the s2s code...
  186. Guus (not doing dialback would actually save us a lot of time...)
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  188. Zash In theory having multiplexing would be very nice, but in practice I've never seen that be used, except for that one time dwd tried and found a bug in Prosody.
  189. Zash So I've been leaning towards depoying XEP-0288 - Bidi instead and being happy enough with that.
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  191. Holger > I'd not be a fan, as it'd break backwards compatibility. Same here.
  192. Holger I think Tigase still doesn't support SASL EXTERNAL at all, for example. (Not entirely sure though.)
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  195. Zash Are any of the Tigase folks here or in jdev@?
  196. jonas’ fun question: those hosts which can only do dialback, what TLS version can they do?
  197. jonas’ is it likely that they will become unreachable "soon" either way because libssl drops support for that version?
  198. Guus I don't think we should remove support for people that for one reason or another don't want or can't set up certificates. Dialback offers better security than no security.
  199. Guus I can think of deployments that are deliberately not internet-facing, or have other reasons to not want to depend on Let's Encrypt
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  201. Guus Also, everyone having valid certificates very much is an effect of one single organisation providing a service, I think. What happens if, for whatever reason, Let's Encrypt stops doing their thing (or stops being trustworthy)?
  202. Guus Their certificates are only valid for 3 months - having dialback as a fallback to a service that pretty much hinges on one organisation isn't the worst of ideas, maybe.
  203. Zash I'm not a fan of this single point of failure either
  204. Zash However it is the current reality
  205. Guus would making it easier to disable dialback be a compromise to be considered?
  206. Zash I did word it as "phase out", meaning not instant.
  207. Guus security-minded setups can then disable it, while others might opt to choose interop over security. It boils down to that question, right?
  208. Zash Yeah
  209. Zash FWIW it's pretty easy in Prosody already, just comment out that module.
  210. Guus Sure, not saying it wasn't 🙂
  211. Zash No idea about other servers, but if it's not easy then making it easy seems like a good idea.
  212. Guus Having given this 5 minutes of thought, I'd not be a fan of phase out Dialback though.
  213. Maranda > Guus, Holger, other server devs: We Prosody devs have been thinking about phasing out Dialback, for reasons written down in https://issues.prosody.im/1471 > Thoughts? > (Metarelated: We need that Hats XEP implemented) Agreed with Guus phasing out DB is a horrible idea, I already more than once expressed my opinion on it
  214. Guus I think it's good to discuss these things though. Thanks!
  215. Guus Maranda : I never said it was a horrible idea.
  216. !XSF_Martin Zash: Didn't you recently talk about disabling dialback in prosody?
  217. Maranda Plenty of cisco jabber deployments only do DB for example
  218. Zash !XSF_Martin: Yes.
  219. Maranda And not sasl external
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  221. Maranda > Same here. > I think Tigase still doesn't support SASL EXTERNAL at all, for example. (Not entirely sure though.) I'm not sure if it doesnt support it for sure I never seen any deployment I know of using it with my server
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  223. Guus fwiw: https://issues.igniterealtime.org/browse/OF-1940
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  226. Maranda Also I never agreed about most of the security concerns on DB nowadays, very few implementations don't do STARTTLS before DB (Metronome does bump servers that do that for example)
  227. Maranda And the rogue issuing of certificates by LE just introduces more security concerns, so I'm not sure what you expect to achieve here beside breaking interoperability
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  230. MattJ Backwards compatibility: meh Let's Encrypt: it's still not the world's only CA by far Closed setups: don't care about s2s, or can run their own CA or enable dialback
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  235. Daniel Where is memberbot again?
  236. Daniel The source code I mean
  237. Daniel I finally want to do a lower case and a trim around the response parsing
  238. Daniel The fact that it doesn't accept 'Yes ' is super annoying
  239. Maranda MattJ: I'm not the one who mentioned LE as solution for a free certificate to feed to SASL external to begin with
  240. Wojtek @Maranda - we added it recently in development versions so it will be included in next 8.1.0
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  242. pep. Daniel, https://github.com/legastero/memberbot
  243. pep. See also some fixes here already: https://github.com/linkmauve/memberbot/commits/master
  244. Daniel pep.: thank you
  245. Guus Daniel I think Alex mentioned forking that into the xsf github account recently. Not sure if he's working on it.
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  247. Guus and yes, it's annoying. I'd welcome that fix 🙂
  248. Alex travelling right now with bad internet access. Feel free to fork it to the XSF repo and I will take it from there ;-)
  249. Daniel I think I'll pr link's repo
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  251. Alex also, don't think I have permissions to fork it to XSF repo, so someone else would need to do the initial fork
  252. pep. Maybe I can, now
  253. Alex https://palaver.im:5443/upload/5bb502b7c5289e610734e07c6a499759f520bf98/KfbREEd9IVGxE7vRIIZGilr520dOqpVw0Hncz4qm/2019-12-06_12_48_34-legastero_memberbot__XSF_Memberbot__v2.png
  254. pep. hmm no I can't
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  256. pep. Daniel, as you might have seen the "Redis woohoo!" commit is just here to bypass Redis as we didn't want to set it up to test our changes :-°
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  259. pep. (also I'm curious if it's actually necessary..)
  260. Daniel I was just blindly going to add strip().lower() in some places. I wasn't even going to run it
  261. pep. heh
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  264. dwd Zash, XEP-0220 is also used by XEP-0288 - are you suggesting that the dialback auth is deprecated, or that the syntax itself is deprecated?
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  266. moparisthebest Maranda: rogue issuing of certs by LE?
  267. Zash dwd: Personally I really don't like the syntax. But I'm pretty sure you can do 288 without talking Dialback.
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  271. pep. ralphm, Guus, can somebody give me perms on the trello board so I add agendan items please.
  272. pep. ralphm, Guus, can somebody give me perms on the trello board so I add agenda items please.
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  276. ralphm pep., what is your username there?
  277. pep. ppjet6
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  279. ralphm pep., oh, interesting, I also found another one, which does have an avatar
  280. pep. I just added an avatar
  281. ralphm but that one is maximebuquet
  282. pep. Yeah, that was the original username they gave me, and apparently it's possible to change it.
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  284. pep. Not sure how long it sticks around
  285. ralphm so it is one account then?
  286. ralphm confusing
  287. pep. it is
  288. pep. (confusing)
  289. pep. Thanks I've been added
  290. ralphm Well, I think I added both
  291. pep. ugh, weird
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  296. Guus I though I already added you?
  297. Guus Are you there three times now? 😁
  298. ralphm You added one of his accounts as guest
  299. ralphm I promoted that one, and added the other for good measure.
  300. ralphm So pep. is double important now
  301. Guus Internet is hard
  302. ralphm nah
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  304. Martin The *hard* parts are not the problems, the problems come from the *soft* part. No software, no problem. 😁
  305. Guus You beat the end boss?
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  324. Link Mauve RFC5891 says it obsoletes RFC3491, does that mean XMPP applications should stop using the Nameprep stringprep profile for domain names?
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  327. ralphm Well...
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  329. ralphm It turns out that there are some issues surrounding Precis and multiple versions of Unicode.
  330. Zash Understatement of the decade 🙂
  331. Link Mauve ralphm, this isn’t PRECIS yet.
  332. Zash IDNA 2008?
  333. Zash That's a separate thing from stringprep
  334. Link Mauve I’m looking at whether IDNA2008 can be used for the domainpart of JIDs instead of IDNA2003 + Nameprep.
  335. Zash That's not how it works
  336. Link Mauve Is it not?
  337. ralphm Link Mauve, for reference: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI
  338. Link Mauve Thanks.
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  340. Link Mauve Ah yes, I have read this email already.
  341. Link Mauve This thread.
  342. Zash If IDNA 2008 replaces IDNA 2003 AND Nameprep then I've gotten it all backwards.
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  346. Link Mauve Zash, that’s what I get from the obsoletes header of the RFC, but I may be wrong.
  347. ralphm I think you either do it using stringprep as earlier versions of XMPP Addresses, or using Precis using the latests incarnation of it
  348. Zash I've just replaced the IDNA part and kept the stringprep part
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  351. Zash IDNA doesn't come into play until you start doing DNS
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  354. Link Mauve IDNA2008 did the same mistake (?) as PRECIS of relaxing the Unicode version from Unicode 3.2 to undefined version.
  355. Zash Related: The 1023 byte limit on JID parts is super weird given the 256 byte limit on DNS names.
  356. Zash I guess you can invent your own non-DNS based federation with looooooong server names.
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  358. Link Mauve Wouldn’t that break any XMPP software using IDNA*?
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  361. Zash Define "using IDNA*"
  362. Zash Being mostly familiar with Prosody, I can say that it should work fine as long as you don't try to federate.
  363. Zash Because IDNA isn't applied until you start doing DNS lookups
  364. Link Mauve So I shouldn’t use IDNA2003 nor IDNA2008 in my JID library at all?
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  366. Link Mauve Since it isn’t involved in DNS in any way?
  367. Zash Prosody's JID library doesn't use IDNA at least.
  368. Link Mauve Ok.
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  377. Zash I guess read https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7622#section-3.2 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6122#section-2.2
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  382. ralphm Or get a hold of Peter
  383. Zash One could probably interpret those texts as nameprep being basically the same as IDNA?
  384. ralphm Nameprep uses IDNA, but there a bunch more.
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  386. flow Link Mauve, domainparts can be DNS names of U-labels, not A-labels, hence they are in ACE. IDNA converts U-labels to A-labels and is hence not needed for your JID library.
  387. flow Note that RFC7622 is underspecified regarding domainparts, see also https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5789
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  389. Zash > ifqdn = 1*1023(domainbyte) > a "domainbyte" is a byte used to represent a UTF-8 encoded Unicode code point that can be contained in a string that conforms to RFC 5890
  390. Zash Hmmm
  391. flow and here lies the problem
  392. Zash > ifqdn = 1*(namepoint) > a "namepoint" is a UTF-8 encoded Unicode code point that satisfies the Nameprep profile of stringprep in RFC 6122
  393. flow strike that, the ifqnd definition is not the problem, the textual description is
  394. Zash Note that those are from two separate RFCs
  395. Zash The first I pasted replaces the second.
  396. flow Yep
  397. Zash Does the 7622 definition permit 1023 UTF-8 continuation bytes?
  398. flow The problem is that RFC7622 only allows code points allowed in NR-LDH labels and U-labels
  399. flow which excludes the colon for example, and I am pretty sure most of us have domainparts which include colons
  400. Zash Oh glob what's an NR-LDH label?
  401. Zash Colons?
  402. flow non reserved letters digits hypen label
  403. flow Zash, just have a look at https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5789
  404. Zash That's not allowed in domain names
  405. Zash And IP literals are in "good luck with that" territory
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  407. flow NR-LDH are the old style dns label format prior unicode, which just could include letters, digits and the hypen, hence the name
  408. Zash Aren't U-labels the new ones?
  409. flow yes and no
  410. flow on the wire DNS still uses LDH labels
  411. flow hence IDNA
  412. Zash remembers how touching on this topic generally ends with a great desire to crawl down under the desk and cry
  413. flow It's really not that hard
  414. Zash `to_ascii()` yes
  415. flow bbl
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  460. Link Mauve edhelas, “when you join a chatroom (especially that one)”, which one?
  461. Link Mauve Otherwise, congrats for the release!
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