> Making it non-public and having a long random name works like a password
With the difference that a password coule easily be changed whereas the group name not
Ge0rG
marc_: changing a MUC password will throw everybody out
https://fosstodon.org/web/statuses/103290294377276459 is this for iTeam?
Zash
Which RSS feed?
nyco
that's my doubt: could be our blog, or the planet
that's why I ask
Zash
https://xmpp.org/feeds/all.atom.xml has eg `<link href="/" rel="alternate"/>`
Ge0rG
I wonder if this isn't a bug in the respective feed readers instead.
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Zash
nyco: Maybe ask them where exactly they're seeing that?
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ralphm
If I miss the Board meeting today, it means I've finally beaten jetlag. Bear with me ๐คฃ
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Guus
Say hi to Bear! ๐
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dwd
<reaction>๐คฃ</reaction>
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Zash
U wut m8?
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Seve
Guus, ralphm, I cannot join today unfortunately.
Guus
๐ถ No more monkeys jumping on the bed
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DebXWoody
Guus: ๐
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pep.
Is it now?
pep.
Or in an hour? I haven't got my timezones right
Kev
I love it when an Experimental XEP gets published, discussion happens on-list, and genuinely significant improvements can then be made because of the community suggestions.
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Guus
it's now.
pep.
poke MattJ
Guus
Time for the board meeting. Paging pep. MattJ ralphm - Seve mentioned he wasn't going to be here.
pep.
ralphm, not here then? Seve not here that we know
Guus
hmm
Guus
just you and me?
pep.
indeed
Guus
No quorum then.
Guus
I can help you with one of the things that you added to the agenda: https://trello.com/c/nAXUNr47/378-google-mentor-summit-expenses
Guus
I don't think we need to discuss this.
pep.
that'd be great
Guus
We've already agreed.
pep.
poke peter and get money back?
Guus
So you can simply talk to the Treasurer (Peter)
Guus
He'll ask you for an expense sheet.
Guus
but yeah. There's no board decision to be made here - unless I'm missing something?
pep.
larma, ^
pep.
I don't think so, I was just unsure
Guus
As you helpfully linked on Trello: board already voted in favor of this.
pep.
As for the other items, (made the list public and open history), we can continue discussing this on-list. I guess we could also vote on-list? Does something prevent this?
Guus
So, unless Peter has concerns that I'm unaware of, you should be good.
pep.
Does everything have to be done in meetings?
Guus
No - but if you want to discuss on list, you probably should do it on the member list, not board - for reasons you expressed yourself.
pep.
It seems to me absent's opinions are just discarded otherwise if they haven't expressed them beforehand
Guus
(that board list is mostly used for basic "sorry, can't make it" type of comms)
pep.
Guus, well board hasn't decided anything wrt. these. I'd be happy to start doing it though
Guus
without Quorum, there's no vote.
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pep.
without quorum "at a specific point in time during the week"?
Guus
we can discuss on list, but a vote should be called in a meeting, I think.
pep.
Anyway I'll raise this point as well
Guus
Details will be in the bylaws.
pep.
I guess we can leave this here
Guus
ok. Back to work with me!
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Guus
ttyl
pep.
thanks
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MattJ
Sorry, unexpectedly can't make it today
pep.
We've already closed for the day, please come back next week :P
dwd
I don't think you actually need to make decisions at meeting. See XSF Bylaws ยง5.8 which seems to explicitly cover this.
pep.
Yep, looks good to me
dwd
Though it *appears* to read as if only unanimous decisions can be made that way.
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pep.
hmm. I'd like to have meetings be an extension of "action without a meeting" and not the opposite. (Just a place to sync up if required, not something you have to attend or be ignored. I extrapolate but this doesn't seem to far from the truth to me)
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dwd
I suspect an effective way for the Board to operate would be to vote on things on list, and only hold meetings when things are conetntious (ie, not unanimous). That appears to conform to the bylaws, and you can make such a rule of procedure under ยง5.10 should you wish.
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dwd
Or at least, only vote at things at meetings.
pep.
What do you mean with that last message?
Kev
I would suggest making 'the list' be members@ rather than board@ though (which is Board policy anyway, instituted a few Boards ago, to do business on members@ unless something has to be out of camera (sic)).
dwd
Kev, "in camera", not "out of camera". "Camera" here is the Latin word for room.
Kev
Indeed.
Kev
That's why the (sic) to show I knew what I was doing and it wasn't a mistake :p
dwd
Kev, Ah, yes.
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pep.
Kev, yep that's more or less what is being discussed on board@ atm. I'd want that as well.
Kev
pep.: It's already Board policy, FWIW.
pep.
Well I'm not even sure where to find this information anyway..
Kev
I pushed Board on it a number of years ago, and they agreed. So unless a subsequent Board have overturned that (I'm not aware of this).✎
Kev
I pushed Board on it a number of years ago, and they agreed. So unless a subsequent Board have overturned that (I'm not aware of this)... ✏
pep.
So who knows what policy board has now
dwd
Kev, I don't know that Boards bind subsequent boards as to rules of procedure. Nor do I know how a Board would even know about previous rules of procedure.
Kev
I'd assume that Board decisions are lasting until overturned.
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Kev
To do otherwise doesn't make sense in most cases.
Kev
So I don't see why rules of procedure should be different really.
Kev
But, at least, there's no pratical way of knowing this as Boards' continuity isn't always the best.
Kev
(As you say)
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ralphm
It might indeed be useful to gather such decisions and write them up in one place. Maybe even as simple as wiki page.
pep.
yep. I suggested that to board the other day. We should do the same✎
pep.
yep. I suggested that to council the other day. We should do the same ✏
ralphm
But indeed, unless confidentiality is required, everything should really go to members@
pep.
ralphm, can you put that in writing on the list? So far only Guus from board expressed an opinion
Guus
pep. this is already happening. It's kind of weird to announce that we're not going to do anything in private, if we're not doing anything in private anyways.
dwd
Guus, You could announce youre continuing to do so. You never know, it might generate a bit of interest in what the Board is up to.
Guus
*shrug*
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lovetox
Kev, i fear if we dont work out exactly how fastening should be used with MAM, this will end in failure.
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lovetox
Even if it is its own XEP, if it ends not working with MAM perfectly its probably useless
lskdjf
> Kev, i fear if we dont work out exactly how fastening should be used with MAM, this will end in failure.
<reaction>๐๏ธ</reaction>
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Ge0rG
I disagree on that. Fastening adds a semantic relationship to messages. That's more than we have now, and I'm sure it's enough for fetching messages that belong together
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lovetox
yeah kind of the point, we dont have it now so no problems
lovetox
afterwards everyone starts fastening X stuff together
lovetox
then you get problems
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Ge0rG
lovetox: do you have a specific problem in mind?
lovetox
mostly reactions
lovetox
joining 20 groupchats already takes much time with querying 20 archives, it will become a pain if i have to download 1000 message reactions
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lovetox
and this is surley just the first new thing someone invents that uses fastening
lovetox
overall i expect it will result in much more messages sent
lovetox
like chatstates and markers already did
Ge0rG
lovetox: but with the current state of affairs, things like LMC from MAM are already broken
lovetox
right now its bearable traffic wise, but i feel its on the edge
Ge0rG
lovetox: so you are opposed to more messages, and not to messages being semantically linked?
Ge0rG
lovetox: MAM2 is planned to provide all reactions inline for a given message
lovetox
im opposed to inventing tools to raise traffic without at the same time specifing methods to deal with it in a sane manner
Ge0rG
That will vastly reduce your traffic problem
lovetox
Ge0rG, thats the point "its planned" is not good enough
Ge0rG
lovetox: then you should oppose reactions, not fastening
larma
I think right now it only works because few send read markers in larger MUCs... It's basically already "broken"
Daniel
I don't think he is opposing fastening
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lovetox
just lets thing this through to the end, thats all im saying✎
lovetox
just lets think this through to the end, thats all im saying ✏
pep.
lovetox, would you prefer something like "all the meta-stuff (reactions, lmc, etc.) is requested separately"?
lovetox
i was just throwing ideas out, i dont know if this is the best solution
lovetox
but yeah, some MAM filter like, give me all messages that are not fastening
lovetox
then afterwards, query the meta stuff, but the problem here is
lovetox
not all fastening messages are meta
lovetox
as i think dave mentioned on the list
lovetox
there are 3 categorys
lovetox
reactions is just one, if we put lmc, markers, quotes, comments in this
lovetox
then we need real smart logic on the server to make these decisions
Daniel
> there are 3 categorys
> reactions is just one, if we put lmc, markers, quotes, comments in this
> then we need real smart logic on the server to make these decisions
Yeah. Fastening is really complex right now. That's why I want proof that MAM will be able to handle that
Daniel
Or else we might have to reduce complexity
pep.
I'm only catching up on the "Resurrecting Fastening" thread. And I see Xabber people saying "with aggregated counter, where message is returned with a number of attachments it currently has. Possibly, aggregated on type (6 ๐ 3 ๐ก 1 ๐ 1 ๐ฉ), *without *authorship of those attachments". Is anybody actually on board with this? Because I don't like that I'd be missing authorship info :/
pep.
("on-board" as in, "agrees with this")
lovetox
reactions without authorship is the most useless thing i heard
lovetox
someone like my comment but i dont know who, great
lovetox
:D
Zash
Feature! Anonymous voting!
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Daniel
I may or may not be fine with it for the special case of reactions. But if fastening has a general aggregation mechanism there will certainly be cases where we need authorship
lskdjf
yeah reactions without authorship don't make sense at all. Every messenger I know that can do reactions provides the information about who reacted.
pep.
I mean I would understand applications not displaying authorship info right away (at first glance) but yeah I don't want to lose that info
larma
the idea is that you get the summary without authorship, but also have the ability to request the details with authorship
pep.
larma, that's quite specific to one kind of UI possibility though
larma
yes, that is really specific about reactions
pep.
Even for reactions I mean
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pep.
Not that I have other UI suggestions right now, but I wouldn't want to see optimisations for every single possible UI in the protocol
larma
That's why I wrote in one of my mails:
> I can hardly imagine summarizing to work in a generic way. The only thing that makes sense to me is to have the procedure to summarize a certain fastening defined with that specific fastening (e.g. in the reactions XEP for reactions) and not generically. This also implies that servers may not be aware of how to summarize certain fastenings and thus clients would always have to be ready to ask for the raw messages for these if they want to display them (obviously servers should announce via disco which they do support).
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larma
pep., I think that's fine for reactions, everyone probably agrees that you don't want to display authorship directly in the message history
pep.
That's a valid statement in our circles
Daniel
I think aggregation can work. But since MAM and aggregation is 90% of the reason we are doing fastening in the first place i don't think it makes sense to release fastening without that
lovetox
exactly.
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larma
I think there is two different kinds of aggregation and people like to mix these two
Daniel
There are multiple kinds of aggregation because fasting mixes multiple kind of references
larma
summary style / processed aggregation (6 ๐ 3 ๐ก 1 ๐ 1 ๐ฉ) and message-based aggregation (where you basically get the original message details without further modification)
Daniel
I think we might be able to do without the processed ones
Daniel
Just give me all the wrapped raw data
Daniel
With the message that they were fastened to
Daniel
I can count them myself
Daniel
But either way. It just further drives home the point that we need to think that together
Daniel
And not just come up with a new attach-to/reference/fasten element
Daniel
That is the boring part of it
larma
Totally agree
Zash
Are there some kind of stats on ratio of "normal" messages to reactions?
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Daniel
Reactions specifically?
Daniel
Or all kind of references?
Zash
That "query MAM, get 1 messagage and 19 reactions" scenario sounds a bit exaggerated
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pep.
Zash, s/reactions/chatstates/ ?
Zash
No chatstates in MAM
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lovetox
really? just look at facebook, one post can have 1000 reactions
Zash
Weren't we going to send chat states over presence?
Zash
Facebook isn't chat
lovetox
Conversations room has 200+ joined people
lovetox
if Daniel, says C is for free for the next 5 days
lovetox
probably 70+ people give thumbs up
lovetox
i pull these numbers out of my ass
lovetox
but it will be more than 19
Zash
Yeah but how often are there that kind of reaction-triggering messages?
lovetox
the thing is if you give people the UI to react with one click
lovetox
they will use it
Daniel
Yeah. You don't know. I mean you probably won't hit an average of 19:1. But it's annoying if the last message sent was one that received a 100 up votes. Than you have two mam pages of just garbage
Zash
I'm not sure designing something based on numbers you got from *where* is the best.
Zash
Hence stats.
lovetox
Zash are you aware that reactions dont exist?
lovetox
how would we gather stats about a feature that does not exist
Zash
I'm perfectly aware that they do exist, just not in XMPP.
lovetox
lets just say we have experience with chat markers
lovetox
and chatstates
lovetox
and before you say they are not stored in MAM
lovetox
yes there was a time prosody stored them
Daniel
I don't know. There is an angry Twitter post from the xabber people about read markers being in mam or what ever
Zash
And most rooms aren't the 200+ conversations@ room.
Daniel
Go ask them for stats ๐
pep.
Zash, find a somewhat popular mattermost instance, I think they can easily get you a ratio?
pep.
Running queries in the db
Zash
pep., that's what I'm talking about
lovetox
we have to design the XEPs still in a way that they are able to scale, even if xmpp is not big at the moment
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Zash
Designing something to scale by making up imaginary numers?
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Ge0rG
We have designed XEPs in the past to cover all potential use cases. PEP, Message Archival and MIX come to mind.
Daniel
I'm not really sure I understand Zash's argument here. That we don't need fastening at all?
Daniel
I mean to me it doesn't matter if we are aggregating 5 or 100 reactions
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lovetox
this does also mean a lot more load for servers
lovetox
i would implement this like, query all reaction authors on mouse over of the reaction
lovetox
i bet many servers will not be able to handle that
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Kev
For the record (and it's late and I'm not going to get into a big discussion right now - send it to list), I am onboard with the summary being a summary (e.g. just the reaction counts per reaction), and if you want further information, including the senders, that you do a further query to ask for it.
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Arc
Ok I really hate being the kind of person who laughs at someone's misfortune, but https://www.zdnet.com/article/russian-police-raid-nginx-moscow-office/ has really brightened my day
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Arc
NGINX Inc - the company who's CEO is a former rugby teammate - who's excited mood for hiring me soured over their non-competition clause extending to /all/ FOSS development.
Arc
NGINX Inc - who's employee contract claims ownership over every FOSS contribution you make as an employee even on your own time, and forbids you from submitting patches to other FOSS projects without permission, now ironically raided by russian police after their lead developer's former employer claims ownership over NGINX because their employee contract has the same clause