XSF Discussion - 2019-12-19


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  258. Ge0rG shakes fist at xmpp.net... "504 Gateway Time-out"
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  260. Guus There's something off there, that we can't quite put our fingers on.
  261. Ge0rG okay, qualys hangs as well
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  265. Guus wow, I got a blinking notification in my favicon thingy as soon as I opened the first google hit for "qualys"
  266. Guus that's a sure way to have me close a browser tab in record time.
  267. Ge0rG blinking favicons. lovely
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  269. Ge0rG the only thing even worse is "randomnews.example wants to access your location"
  270. Guus "wants to send you notifications"
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  272. Guus I actually don't always mind sharing my location (eg: weather updates)
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  275. pep. Guus, "randomnews.example wants to access canvas" also
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  278. Zash There's access control for canvas now?
  279. Guus I've never had that
  280. pep. Zash, it's been a while
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  286. Ge0rG everything in web is horrible
  287. Guus I'd love to imagine what you could write on Chrismas cards... 😉
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  300. dwd "Wishing You a Merry Christmas. Somebody must get one, after all, and it couldn't be any worse that last Christmas."
  301. jonas’ I think it’s indeed hard to have anything worse than Last Christmas ("I gave you my heart")
  302. Seve But the very next day..
  303. jonas’ I heard it TWICE this year already, and I’m neither proud nor happy about that
  304. Link Mauve Here the government is kind of preventing Christmas, by forcing their pension reform upon us and we don’t like that.
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  306. pep. And they still have the guts to ask for a break for christmas :)
  307. dwd Link Mauve, Trust me, you have no reason to complain at your government.
  308. Link Mauve Trust me, we do. :p
  309. dwd Try living in the UK.
  310. Link Mauve Not diminishing yours in its terribleness of course.
  311. Link Mauve I did try that for quite a while. :p
  312. Link Mauve But you never let me vote for an election which matters.
  313. Guus having a vote on stuff that matters didn't turn out to be much of an improvement...
  314. Link Mauve True, your latest one was a disaster once again.
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  316. Zash You all need Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism!
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  321. Guus I had to google that.
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  333. Zash Joining a potato farming collective is also an alternative to consider.
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  336. Guus I'm from the Netherlands. We _are_ a potato farming collective.
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  338. Ge0rG pot-ah-to or pot-ay-to?
  339. Zash po-tat-is
  340. Guus aard-ap-pel.
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  345. !XSF_Martin > I'm from the Netherlands. We _are_ a potato farming collective. You switched to potatoes after the tulips bubble collapsed?
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  347. !XSF_Martin Ah, it's called tulpenmanie
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  349. Guus apparently, we produce about 3 billion tulip bulbs annually.
  350. Guus assuming that an average potato weighs about 100 grams, we do ~70 billion potatoes.
  351. Guus </wikipedia>
  352. Guus (potatoes are probably a lot cheaper though)
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  378. dwd Guus, Maybe I should invest in tulips, then.
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  380. !XSF_Martin dwd: Don't https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
  381. Guus I like how !XSF_Martin is single-handedly trying to save us from another event like the crash that happened in February 1637.
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  383. pep. Almost time?
  384. MattJ Almost
  385. ralphm bangs gavel
  386. Guus I appear to be here, against all odds.
  387. ralphm 0. Welcome
  388. pep. !
  389. ralphm Hi!
  390. ralphm Who do we have?
  391. MattJ o/
  392. pep. Seve was here ealier?
  393. Seve hi
  394. pep. !
  395. ralphm Also, I'm expecting a contractor to show up at my door between now and 16:00, so I might have to leave early.
  396. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  397. Guus (as if those ever show up on time)
  398. pep. Can do
  399. nyco I'm on it: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9dye-cfzbnvup1y-XSF-board-weekly-2019-12-19
  400. pep. cool
  401. ralphm Thanks nyco!
  402. ralphm 2. Board Mailing List
  403. nyco my contractor is there tomorrow morning :)
  404. ralphm I've saw a few mails around this subject, and I'd like to reiterate my view:
  405. ralphm The board@xmpp.org mailing list is specifically for non-public discussions and silly things like sending regrets for meeting attendance. We aim to do as much as possible in the open, either here or on the members' mailing list.
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  407. ralphm Non-public stuff would include discussions on particular individuals, eg. bad behavior. I don't see a lot falling in this category.
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  409. pep. I've raised the subject because I haven't seen anything explicit about this.
  410. ralphm As for the archive, I actually don't know if it is archived currently.
  411. Seve One thing to mention as well, the board@xmpp.org address can be used as well to receive emails from people outside our communitiy, trying to get in touch with the Board. So in that sense this cannot be public.
  412. pep. Seve, cannot is a strong word
  413. Seve pep., either we create a contact@xmpp.org or we cannot make it public
  414. ralphm pep., you may not have, and I'm not entirely sure how to make sure we do going forward. Like a standing list of decisions on a wiki might be a good thing, but I'm not sure how unweildy that could become.
  415. pep. That'd be a first step I guess
  416. MattJ A general observation: I think there is much about the running of the XSF that is currently undocumented
  417. pep. Like a "board decisions" category on the wiki or sth
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  419. pep. MattJ, agreed
  420. Guus let's stay on point though.
  421. MattJ Board decisions are buried in minutes, but there are other things that are often just a verbal "This is the way we do things, this is the way we have always done things"
  422. ralphm I'm happy with such a decision list, with identifiers like 20191219-001
  423. ralphm So you can refer to the original discussion dates.
  424. ralphm (I've seen this in many other orgs)
  425. MattJ Sounds good
  426. pep. A bit cryptic to me, but I'm happy to bikeshed once we've agreed that this needs doing
  427. ralphm I was going for a date and a sequence number, but whatever you want.
  428. pep. So do we agree that members@ is the venue we want to use? and board@ only when things need to be private? (when is that even6)
  429. ralphm motions we will keep a public list of Board decisions, on our wiki, using identifiers that help finding context (much) later.
  430. ralphm +1
  431. Guus 0
  432. pep. +1
  433. ralphm pep., yes members is our venue by default
  434. MattJ +1
  435. ralphm Seve?
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  437. Seve I didn't know that was the point, but to that sentence I'm +1
  438. Seve I didn't understand that was the point, but to that sentence I'm +1
  439. pep. That wasn't (in my agenda items) but it's an underlying issue
  440. pep. What about the list history? Is it kept somewhere?
  441. pep. If not can we? And if so can we open it?
  442. Guus As far as I know, Peter answered that correctly. We might want to ask iteam to have another look, as I think having history would be nice.
  443. ralphm motions that we re-affirm Board uses public communications channels (such as members@xmpp.org, xsf@muc.xmpp.org) as much as possible, and board@xmpp.org is strictly for matters that are (initially) confidential.
  444. ralphm (sorry, I was typing for a while)
  445. pep. +1
  446. ralphm +1
  447. Guus +1
  448. Seve Perfect ralphm :) +1
  449. MattJ +1
  450. Kev ISTM that if conversations have to be confidential, possibly not archiving them is ok?
  451. ralphm pep., as I said, I honestly don't know if we keep archives of board@. MattJ ?
  452. MattJ I don't believe we do
  453. Kev I do not believe board@ is archived.
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  455. ralphm Kev, I think so
  456. ralphm both motions carry and will be the first to go on the wiki, yay!
  457. Guus For reference: Peters answer mentioned technological challenges to getting a non-public archive realized.
  458. ralphm I'm curious about those, but I agree with Kev that this might be a thing we shouldn't do
  459. Guus I don't agree with that.
  460. pep. I don't agree with Kev on this point. And I'm curious about the technical issue
  461. Guus it might be very benificial for new boards to be able to read back.
  462. Guus I don't, however, think this is so valuable that we should spend a lot of effort on this.
  463. pep. But if it's a technical issue I'm happy to leave it be until iteam changes software (maybe)
  464. ralphm I do know that I have private mailman lists (as administrator) on ik.nu, and that's not been an issue
  465. Kev Guus: I guess the question is "What is the issue that means that members should not be able to access the discussion history?".
  466. Kev Because I'm prepared to bet that lots of those are cases where potential future Board members likely shouldn't be privy to it either.
  467. MattJ Having new Board members able to read previous discussions I think would be a desirable thing - especially in the case where issues are ongoing at the point of a handover
  468. Guus Kev members or general public?
  469. Kev (Well, 'lots of those cases'. I believe that such instances are rare in the first place)
  470. ralphm Sorry gotta leave.
  471. Guus steals gavel.
  472. Kev MattJ: I think in such a case it would be very appropriate for old Board to brief new Board directly.
  473. Kev Guus: They're basically one and the same :)
  474. MattJ Brief != access to raw data
  475. Guus not really
  476. MattJ i.e. the outgoing Board then has full control over the narrative passed to the new Board
  477. Guus for example when discussing negotiations with outside entities
  478. Kev Guus: Find a nominal member of the general public who shouldn't have access to a discussion while a member should, and then how that public person would be prevented from joining :)
  479. Guus might be relevant to keep that under board/membership and not the outside world, pending negotiations (we've had some examples with making our minds up about the way to work with sponsoring, copyright, things like that)
  480. Guus Is there anyone here that wishes us to further look into (technical) possibilities to realize such an archive at this point?
  481. Guus (if not, I'd like to move on)
  482. MattJ I'm fine with things as they are right now, though would be open to making this a potential iteam todo later down the road
  483. Guus that's the same for me
  484. pep. I'd like to have it if it's technically possible. If it's an issue with our software then maybe moving to something else (mailman3?) would be benefitial (also for other things). I'm not rushing iteam but I want this to be considered
  485. pep. beneficial*
  486. Seve An archive for board@xmpp.org accessible by Board?
  487. pep. Seve, yes
  488. Seve Then what MattJ said sounds very good to me, indeed
  489. Guus ok - MattJ with your iteam hat on, will you commit to look into technical feasibility?
  490. MattJ With my iteam hat on, iteam has more pressing todo items unless Board considers this high priority (and I'm not sure most of us do)
  491. pep. Well I'm in board and I already don't have access anyway so I guess we got at least a year :-°
  492. Guus pep. can you agree to this being a low-prio thing?
  493. pep. Sure
  494. pep. Well, lower priority than other things
  495. Guus I've moved the Trello card to the backburner lane
  496. pep. Not low priority
  497. pep. (If there is a semantical difference here)
  498. Guus let's circle back to this once iteam has found the time to look into it.
  499. MattJ Understood
  500. Seve Super
  501. Guus We've got five minutes let.
  502. Guus left*
  503. Guus I'd like to tackle this item from trello: Consider speaking out about savedotorg.org
  504. sjaak has left
  505. Guus as that is going to be outdated soon.
  506. sjaak has joined
  507. Guus Do we want to pursue this?
  508. Guus (speaking out publicly)
  509. pep. I don't see why we wouldn't
  510. Guus In a previous meeting, we postponed discussing this topic, to give board members time to read up.
  511. pep. I don't think we especially have to write something about it
  512. Seve So do we have to take any actions?
  513. Guus I personally do not want to publish anything about this. Sure, I don't like what's going on, but I am not concerned that it will have the impact big enough for us to speak out against it.
  514. MattJ Many larger organisations than ours have already spoken up. That doesn't mean we shouldn't, but also ICANN are reviewing the situation - I'm not sure "speaking up" will make a difference to the outcome in any meaningful way.
  515. pep. But not saying anything about it is also saying something about us.
  516. pep. Especially now that we're aware of it
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  518. Seve What should be acceptable then? A tweet?
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  521. MattJ I'm on the fence between speaking up and just avoiding getting involved in the latest internet outrage currently top of peoples' minds
  522. Guus let me put it this way: I'm not seeing anything that we should voice concerns about. It's more of an internet outrage (thanks Matt) than an actual issue, in my opinion.
  523. Guus I've read some texts about potential far-reaching effects of this that I absolutely don't agree with.
  524. MattJ There is the possibility that the transition will allow the increase of .org pricing. I find it hard to believe this will affect us in any way (if the XSF and other organisations cannot afford their domains, switching is painful but possible)
  525. Guus sure, it's a bastard move from people wanting to make money - but I don't feel that this is going to significantly hinder free speech, or anything to that extend.
  526. MattJ Then there is the possibility that the deal was under-handed in some way. I don't think we know enough to pass judgement on this.
  527. MattJ Nor is it necessarily our place to get involved in that debate
  528. MattJ (when as I said, I don't think it would affect the outcome in any way)
  529. Seve Sounds wise
  530. Guus do we want a vote on this?
  531. MattJ Don't see why not
  532. pep. I guess there is consensus. I don't especially agree but I'm not going to block it
  533. MattJ We need to fill up that wiki page
  534. Guus motions that the XSF chooses to not make a public statement about savedotorg.org at this time, without ruling out that future developments might reverse this decision.
  535. MattJ +1
  536. Seve +1
  537. Guus +1
  538. pep. 0
  539. Guus Motion passes.
  540. Guus Our time is up.
  541. Guus AOB?
  542. MattJ None here
  543. Seve Thanks nyco for the minutes :)
  544. pep. I had one but it's been discussed (wiki stuff)
  545. pep. Nothing else
  546. Guus I'd like to mention two things:
  547. !XSF_Martin has joined
  548. Guus 1. GSOC has been announced. If we want in, we should act before mid january. Let's think about that.
  549. aj has left
  550. Guus 2. People interested in joining the Summit or FOSDEM should subscribe to the summit mailing list.
  551. Guus date/time of next
  552. Guus as +1 week is Chrismas, I propose +2w
  553. pep. I can do both.
  554. pep. I'm fine with +2w
  555. Seve I can do next week, but probably not until two weeks after (not sure yet)
  556. MattJ +2w wfm
  557. Guus I can't make it next week.
  558. Seve So that settles it :)
  559. Guus lets do +2w
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  561. Guus happy holidays!
  562. MattJ Same!
  563. pep. Thanks all.
  564. Guus bangs gavel, carefully places it back on Ralphs bench.
  565. Seve You all too! Thank you for the mmeting
  566. MattJ Thanks all
  567. pep. I guess I forgot an AOB, and I already said last week I'd take that to the list. I'd like to stop having meetings be at the center of what we do. Topics for discussion can and should be taken up to the list first IMO, to give a choice to anybody (board mostly but also members) to express their opinion and not be simply ignored because they can't participate in meetings.
  568. pep. I'll take that to the list now.
  569. Guus I agree - it'll make us a lot more effetive.
  570. nyco please review: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9dye-cfzbnvup1y-XSF-board-weekly-2019-12-19
  571. Guus nyco for future reference: I think it's better to explicitly note in the minutes if a motion passes or not. That removes any uncertainty.
  572. pep. And also add ACTION points, imo
  573. Guus I've added it to todays minutes (and thanks for doing them in the first place)
  574. pep. If there are any
  575. pep. A decision without any action is :x
  576. pep. (generally not useful)
  577. nyco be my guest
  578. david has joined
  579. pep. Yep I'm adding it
  580. pep. Thanks for writing all this :)
  581. nyco if there are actions, they you should maintain/track/follow such a list, for example in a Trello, or whatever, and review the status at each meeting
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  583. nyco otherwise, actions are lost
  584. pep. I want automation really. I don't think trello is much better tbh
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  586. nyco Trello is only a tool, nothing there is automated
  587. pep. I want a bot or sth we can talk to directly in meetings or on list that would be our source of truth (?) potentially posting stuff on the wiki or sth
  588. pep. (or on trello or..)
  589. nyco the goal for a team is to share, track, overview
  590. nyco a bot is only another tool (that adds one more layer, btw)
  591. pep. "automation", whatever form that takes, is good to take
  592. nyco "Actions review" should be an agenda item then
  593. pep. sure
  594. nyco not always
  595. Guus Yeah - plus, putting in effort to write a bot requires a lot more effort than manually keeping things updated in tools we use now.
  596. pep. Maybe you're not seeing the same things I am seeing
  597. nyco automation rocks when there is already a routine
  598. pep. Anyway, that's all ifs for now
  599. nyco for now, actions is a new stuff, and it is not tracked, whether it is automated or not, that's not in question
  600. Guus I'm off. ttyl!
  601. nyco I'd rather say actions are a matter of (the sum of) individual capacities
  602. pep. Minutes look good to me now
  603. nyco yes, indeed, collective effort, that was my aim
  604. nyco I'd love that to continue
  605. nyco I'd love to avoid a truck/bus factor
  606. nyco I'd love not to miss any more Board minutes like we have been so good at :)
  607. pep. I did miss last week. Even if there wasn't any official meeting we did talk about $things.
  608. pep. Or even just to say there was no meeting
  609. nyco be my guest
  610. nyco the logs are available
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  612. pep. Yeah, let me send that quickly.
  613. nyco thx a lot
  614. nyco minutes sent, thx all!
  615. pep. Sent last week as well.
  616. pep. Thanks nyco
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  618. nyco thx pep. now there are two actions, none are tracked, one is not assigned
  619. pep. Better than no actions at all? :)
  620. pep. We can review past actions next week for sure.
  621. pep. And make that a habit
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  627. edhelas https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620
  628. dwd How did Mozilla, which employs a bunch of XMPP experts, end up choosing Matrix? Did anyone know this was being chosen?
  629. pep. They discarded XMPP early on
  630. Zash XMPP is not a product. They were looking for products.
  631. Daniel dwd: what xmpp experts do the employ?
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  633. pep. and they're using the hosted versions the article says, ugh.
  634. dwd Daniel, Joe, Peter, Jack, M&M. Many aren't very active. But it's massively disappointing to me that XMPP isn't a serious competitor.
  635. MattJ What Zash said. Not surprising.
  636. MattJ XMPP is a protocol, Matrix is a stack from protocol up to official clients for all platforms.
  637. edhelas dwd the issue was not about XMPP, but the lack of client that "looks like" Mattermost/Riot/Slack…
  638. pep. dwd, what Zash said. Name a single viable product to compete with Matrix or Slack that is also free software
  639. Daniel dwd: thanks. I was just asking out of curiosity.
  640. Daniel To be fair. The open source tooling we have that you can just start using right now is kinda bad
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  642. MattJ dwd, they were pretty open about this whole process (which has been going on for months), but I don't think there is any XMPP solution I would personally stand behind as meeting their requirements
  643. MattJ And I assume the same applies for everyone else who didn't submit a proposal to them
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  647. larma They also use the modular.im hosted service instead of hosting theirselves. I guess they really just wanted slack, but not slack (= a fully-managed, cloud-hosted, mostly centralized chat solution with good web client)
  648. pep. yeah
  649. pep. fwiw Matthew (Matrix) told me directly at POSS that they would work again on the XMPP bridge, so we'll see..
  650. larma literally everytime i have met any matrix fan or employee they were telling that 😀
  651. pep. yeah..
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  653. Ge0rG and they immediately start the marketing machine: https://matrix.org/blog/2019/12/19/welcoming-mozilla-to-matrix/
  654. pep. Ge0rG, you surprised?
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  657. Ge0rG pep.: not at all. I'm rather sad about the lack of a comparable machinery (or a /product/ to brag about) in xmpp land
  658. larma They worked hard for it for about 4 years, so obviously they are happy about the achievement 😀
  659. pep. Ge0rG, bring monies to the XMPP.
  660. larma https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/matrix-and-irc-mozillians-custom-client/2911/7 < completely neutral pros and cons there
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  662. Ge0rG pep.: hey, that was my argument!
  663. Ge0rG pep.: so how much is an xmpp-based IM product that I can deploy in March 2020?
  664. pep. You'd need money from VCs!
  665. pep. Start now
  666. Zash MattJ: So how's that Hype Machine coming?
  667. MattJ It's hyper
  668. Ge0rG did you say it's hyped?
  669. Zash Hyperhyped
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  672. larma pep., Ge0rG, I think the main issue is rather that all XMPP clients have severely different feature sets and UX. Most of them are fine. Conversations is solid, Converse.JS also works pretty good. But both have features that the other one doesn't have, so you end up with the smalest common feature set and also the UI is completely different. Also conversations is more focused on private chat and less on organization chat (converse does a better job for the latter)
  673. Ge0rG larma: let me tell you about Riot for Android and RiotX ;)
  674. Ge0rG larma: but you are fully right of course. Which is why I've been pushing for Easy XMPP and Compliance Suite
  675. larma I don't really think compliance suite will help. It will always be the smalest common feature set everyone can agree on, and that won't be enough
  676. Ge0rG larma: the alternative is to have a team like Xabber or Tigase provide a set of apps for all major platforms
  677. edhelas i think it's also more about the UI
  678. edhelas having the same colors, buttons
  679. larma edhelas, true, also chat bubbles vs the other thingee (is there a name for it)
  680. Ge0rG edhelas: for corporate use, yes. for a community like mozilla, probably not so much
  681. larma Ge0rG, Tigase hardly has the same feature set across platform last time I checked
  682. Ge0rG the chat bubble has burst in 2004.
  683. Ge0rG larma: I'm sure that Xabber iOS will be the bestest of all XMPP clients, though.
  684. larma it will probably take the ugly parts of other iOS XMPP clients and combine it with the ugly parts of other Xabber clients 😀
  685. Daniel Conversations 3.0 will probably get rid of bubbles.
  686. Ge0rG larma: who am I to judge ugliness of xmpp clients?
  687. Daniel But yes not having an entity that can provide a unified product is a big hurdle
  688. Daniel And compliance suites and the so called easy xmpp wont solve that
  689. Zash What you need is to have a single well-funded company do everything.
  690. Ge0rG Daniel: speaking of easy xmpp, MattJ and Zash and me have a first prototype of XEP-0401 with minor protocol changes at https://gist.github.com/mwild1/088b89ea6073671ff33b4303f222a0e9 - would you mind adding that to conversations?
  691. Ge0rG Zash: (pep.) > Ge0rG, bring monies to the XMPP.
  692. Daniel Ge0rG: I currently have no plans for that
  693. subpub has left
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  695. Daniel But I am happy to see support for pre auth
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  697. Ge0rG Daniel: it's also fixing your major issue with 0379 - the tokens are completely handled by the server
  698. edhelas small question, where can I store the password in Bookmark 2 ? I see it was removed
  699. MattJ You can't (in any standard way)
  700. Ge0rG store it in the JID :P
  701. Zash MUC Passwords considered harmful
  702. Ge0rG /join `pwgen`@chat.yax.im
  703. edhelas ok :D
  704. MattJ Ge0rG, but security!
  705. edhelas so I'll go with members based
  706. Ge0rG Zash: s/Passwords//
  707. Ge0rG edhelas: yeah, private, hidden, members-only
  708. Zash I can't remember seeing an actual password-protected MUC
  709. Ge0rG I'm still member in one.
  710. dwd Zash, That's because they're all hidden too.
  711. Ge0rG Unfortunately, all the other members have vanished.
  712. Zash We got a bug report about handling MUC passwords insecurely in Prosody. But we need to because they're supposed to be included in plain text in invites.
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  714. Ge0rG if only we had invitation tokens. What about per-occupant-JID MUC passwords?
  715. Zash That might be doable without protocol changes?
  716. Ge0rG it totally is
  717. Ge0rG but you can't request an invitation to a members-only MUC
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  723. dwd Ge0rG, Can't you?
  724. Zash Ge0rG, can you invite me to The Secret Room?
  725. Zash ^ see
  726. Ge0rG Zash: you and me are in the same MUC, and you know my JID and you know that I'm online right now.
  727. Ge0rG Zash: imagine a room with multiple admins of which you know none directly.
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  730. dwd Ge0rG, I meant https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#register and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#regapprove
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  733. Ge0rG dwd: can you do that from the outside?
  734. Ge0rG I haven't seen an implementation of that anyway.
  735. Ge0rG &
  736. Zash The text seems to be specifically about that case.
  737. Zash I forget if the Prosody implementation of this allows it, can check.
  738. Zash Tho it was more focused on registering your nickname
  739. dwd Guus, Doesn't Openfire do that ^^ ?
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  746. Zash Didn't know this was in 0045.
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  752. Guus What what?
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  755. Guus Registering yes. Regapprove, don't know
  756. emus > XMPP is a protocol, Matrix is a stack from protocol up to official clients for all platforms. Even more, there are more or less central instance in a decentral network which is in my view not there for xmpp unfortunately
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  770. pep. I started this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Board. All these templates might not be useful ("Board" might be enough), but that's details
  771. Zash emus, I'm not sure that having a single central gigantic instance is a sign of health for a federated network/protocol. jabber.org being a half-dead zombie is in a way a sign of maturity for XMPP. We can go on without it (but it make make a comback!)
  772. Kev "Half-Dead Zombie" - in the sense of running reliably.
  773. Zash I mean more in how registration has been temporarily closed for years
  774. pep. reliably? Why did we recreate jdev@ on muc.xmpp.org again? :)
  775. Kev Lack of interest in upgrading it, I think.
  776. mathijs has left
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  778. Kev That was because of the dhparams I think, wasn't it?
  779. pep. Yep. Which causes many people being inable to join
  780. pep. Yep. Which causes many people being unable to join
  781. Kev Sure, but that has nothing to do with reliability.
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  786. pep. To me it is pretty much the definition of it (and we can go on like this for a long time as long as nobody gives a definition of that word. Just like people use "stable" for pretty much everything)
  787. Kev I think our understanding of English is probably different.
  788. Kev To me, functioning as intended, consistently, and not failing would be reliable.
  789. Kev But, regardless.
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  803. emus > emus, I'm not sure that having a single central gigantic instance is a sign of health for a federated network/protocol. jabber.org being a half-dead zombie is in a way a sign of maturity for XMPP. We can go on without it (but it make make a comback!) Im sure you see that I dont want a gigantic instance, but a resonable guidance / landing boat with some kind of official manner. still I agree its a good point its working (technically) without it
  804. Lance has left
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  806. emus And back to the central thing. not every characterisitc of central organisation is bad
  807. emus for the beginning it can make thing easier. i think you get my point
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  809. Zash Based on my hobby archeology, I'd say it was, back in 1999-2004.
  810. Zash Back when you had a single server, a few clients, the Jabber Software Foundation and Jabber Inc.
  811. Guus dwd I checked: no manual approvement of nickname registration in MUC in Openfire.
  812. Zash Can those things be done in MIX?
  813. Zash I think I've seen something similar in XEP-0060, ie subscription approval, so maybe.
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  819. emus Zash: I mean for the beginning for newcomers and companies interested
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