XSF Discussion - 2019-12-21

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  216. DebXWoody

    If the Server / Client doesn't support XEP-0313 and not XEP-0280. What will happen when Account 1 send a message to Account 2 while Account 2 is offline?

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  219. pep.

    "It depends"

  220. pep.

    0280 is not actually for offline support

  221. pep.

    look at 0198

  222. Zash

    Offline message storage, delivered when they come back online.

  223. pep.

    Some implementations will return an error saying the recipient is not available also

  224. Zash

    Unless offline storage has been disabled,

  225. DebXWoody

    Where is the offline storage defined RFC / XEP?

  226. pep.

    0013 ?

  227. Zash


  228. Zash


  229. Zash

    Altho it's actually not a protocol, it's just a server implementation detail

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  235. DebXWoody

    Ok,.. thanks.

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  402. lovetox

    jonas’, your last email regarding char counting

  403. jonas’

    holy smokes that thread blew up

  404. lovetox

    maybe i dont get it, but i dont think it says what you want to say

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  406. jonas’


  407. jonas’

    (I also only sent one mail, or is my MUA confused?)

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  409. lovetox

    I think marvin, ralph and all other want to count *before* escaping, for the reasons detailed in this thread

  410. jonas’

    depends on the direction you’re looking at

  411. jonas’

    on the receiving side it’s after (un-)escaping

  412. jonas’

    I totally agree with ralph and marivn

  413. jonas’

    I can’t find my own mail tho

  414. jonas’

    ah, there it is

  415. lovetox

    yeah if you mean that its ok i guess, just saying i dont think many people will read this from your email

  416. jonas’

    okay, I’ll send a follow-up to clarify

  417. lovetox

    that (un-) is essential

  418. jonas’

    thanks for pointing it out

  419. jonas’

    I sent a clarification which should make more sense

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  422. lovetox

    looks good !

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  497. lovetox

    what are you all thinking about a XEP that lets you manage your uploaded files

  498. lovetox

    getting the list of files currently uploaded, and maybe their expiration date

  499. lovetox

    and having a option to delete them

  500. pep.

    Link Mauve had plans(tm) to integrate something like that into his account management client thingy, if/when that becomes a thing

  501. pep.


  502. pep.

    And yeah that'd be great.

  503. Link Mauve

    I already have it in there I think.

  504. pep.

    There were mentions of that during the GDPR paranoia period but nobody did anything about did

  505. Link Mauve

    Only listing and deletion so far.

  506. pep.

    Link Mauve, what standard?

  507. Link Mauve


  508. pep.

    lovetox, maybe if you look on standards@

  509. pep.

    Link Mauve, what standard on top of 0050?

  510. pep.


  511. Link Mauve

    Not written yet.

  512. lovetox

    adhoc is fine for that

  513. lovetox

    actually there is no need for a standard or? adhoc just returns dataforms

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  518. lovetox

    if you can process one adhoc workflow you can process all

  519. lovetox

    though it probably would be good to have a well known command name for that functionality

  520. lovetox

    so we dont have to discover it

  521. pep.


  522. lovetox

    on the other hand this could be added to the httpupload disco result

  523. lovetox

    the adhoc command name i mean

  524. lovetox

    but probably easier to just define one name

  525. Link Mauve

    Yup, just like XEP-0133.

  526. Link Mauve

    Maybe we could just extend XEP-0133 with that.

  527. lovetox

    also another thing i thought aboujt

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  530. lovetox

    some way to discover if a file is already on the server

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  533. lovetox

    maybe with sending a hash

  534. lovetox

    and you get back the uri and the expiration date

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  567. moparisthebest

    What about encrypted files

  568. lovetox

    depends on the encryption

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  570. lovetox

    if the encryption is always the same you could still check the hash

  571. lovetox

    but thats not so likely

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  573. lovetox

    but yeah that would not work for encrypted files, but thats no reason to not do it for unencrypted

  574. Zash

    If a hash is part of the upload slot request then the server could do integrity verification after the upload is completed, which seems like a nice thing.

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  576. lovetox

    hm yeah but is this really a problem worth solving

  577. lovetox

    hm with http does the server know the difference between end of file

  578. Zash

    Almost every file upload thing I made before HTTP upload was a thing would base the URL on the hash of the content. Would have been nice to use those, but couldn't because the current scheme.

  579. lovetox

    and cancelled transfer?

  580. Zash

    It knows the size

  581. lovetox

    ah ..

  582. lovetox

    so yeah, i guess this never happens

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  584. lovetox

    a full size transfered file where some bytes are what flipped to something else?

  585. Zash

    TLS (via HTTPS) also does a bunch for integrity

  586. moparisthebest

    It'd be nice if the rejected http upload encryption xep that every client currently implements anyway was accepted

  587. Zash

    moparisthebest, the aesgcm:// thing?

  588. Zash


  589. moparisthebest

    What would it take process wise to reboot that? Yep that's it

  590. Zash

    Yak number one: Fix the encryption scheme to allow encrypting more than just the body.

  591. lovetox

    on what grounds was it rejected, and how would a proper http upload encryption look if not that way?

  592. lovetox

    actually it has nothing to do with httpupload

  593. Zash

    https+vnd.something.omemo.aesgcm:// at the very least

  594. lovetox

    its just a way to communicate a key and url to another user

  595. Zash

    or register aesgcm with iana

  596. moparisthebest

    It was originally just https:// until someone complained I think

  597. lovetox

    i guess all info could be put into the fragment

  598. lovetox


  599. lovetox

    then it does not matter what the scheme is in front

  600. MattJ

    Non-OMEMO clients would just download garbage

  601. lovetox

    MattJ, non omemo clients can not see that message

  602. Zash

    MattJ, they wouldn't get the URL in the first place tho

  603. moparisthebest

    No they wouldn't get the link

  604. moparisthebest


  605. MattJ

    Ah right

  606. Zash

    because it'd be omemo-encrypted <body>

  607. Zash


  608. lovetox

    but yeah its all a ugly workaround for not having full stanza encryption

  609. moparisthebest

    Full stanza encryption would be great but that's a separate concern, you'd still need to encrypt the http upload

  610. lovetox

    but even if its ugly, it just works and is easy to implement

  611. lovetox

    so not really a top priority to fix in my opinion

  612. lovetox

    moparisthebest, but you dont need a XEP to encrypt a httpupload

  613. lovetox

    you just need a XEP to communicate to another party, how you encrypted content

  614. Zash

    Doesn't Jingle have stuff for this?

  615. lovetox

    yes, but we talk about http upload

  616. lovetox


  617. Zash

    Why does it need to matter what transport method you used?

  618. lovetox

    it doesnt

  619. lovetox

    you are right

  620. lovetox

    jingle does it, it sends a key transport omemo message

  621. lovetox

    which is an encrypted message that has a key in it

  622. lovetox

    this is not an encrypted body

  623. lovetox

    its something in the signal protocol layer

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  625. lovetox

    then it starts jingle, and you know that keytransport message is the decryption key

  626. lovetox

    or something like that

  627. lovetox

    but you can do this with jingle because you are in some kind of session, and you know where this key transport message belongs to

  628. lovetox

    hard to do with just sending a url

  629. lovetox

    hm its doable ..

  630. lovetox

    you could put 2 encrypted omemo elements into one message

  631. lovetox

    one encrypts the body like always

  632. lovetox

    and the other is inside some <security> element

  633. lovetox

    and is the decryption key transport message

  634. lovetox

    then you just have to write a xep that tells you to look for it and to decrpyt it in the right order

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