XSF Discussion - 2019-12-29

00:02:54 pep. What if you want to have a group with channels from different components?
00:03:26 pep. Would not a list of channels be easier to handle? You can also do MIX like this it's not specific to MUC
00:04:20 pep. (Not that I have any interest in having MIX implemented for the time being)
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08:21:08 MattJ pep.: disco can return JIDs from other components :)
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09:44:04 pep. MattJ: you'd be breaking a SHOULD? (Behind a feature I guess..). "The service SHOULD return a full list of the public rooms it hosts"
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09:48:53 pep. I came across this but I was mostly looking at possible restrictions on the type of jid you can put in there
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09:52:28 Ge0rG It doesn't say it may only return rooms...
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09:56:12 pep. It doesn't insist on it..
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09:56:44 pep. I wonder how many people would interpret it this loosely though
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09:56:54 Ge0rG Most of them
09:56:55 MattJ Who cares?
09:57:32 pep. MattJ: dunno, some optimisation "because the xep says so"
09:57:38 MattJ Disco has been used this way for a long long time, not necessarily on MUC components (that I'm aware of)
09:57:50 MattJ But I don't see a difference
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09:58:08 Ge0rG Reminds me of https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Client_Test_Cases
09:58:18 MattJ The attribute is 'jid' not 'nodepart'
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09:59:42 MattJ In the olden days many servers would return conference.jabber.org in their disco items, or transports from another server, etc.
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10:00:15 MattJ Clients did not and should not expect that those services are always subdomains of the domain they disco, and the same applies here
10:00:46 Ge0rG pep.: there is actual benefit in using jonas’' muc search API instead of the blunt disco#items, as it provides rich info without having to query each room individually
10:01:09 Ge0rG And that doesn't come with the expectation of all rooms being on the same domain
10:01:10 pep. Ge0rG: context?
10:01:30 Ge0rG pep.: exposing a "community" room list
10:02:28 pep. I don't especially think this should be restricted to being a "room" list
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10:10:25 Ge0rG Well, you could stuff anything into it, but what would be useful, and not too far away from normal xmpp clients?
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10:11:02 pep. By "normal" you mean chat?
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10:13:05 Ge0rG I mean the widely deployed ones, which is roughly the same
10:13:47 pep. All clients support PEP right. Microblog is not too far away :p
10:15:47 Ge0rG pep.: now just make it mandatory for CS'21 and we are set
10:16:27 pep. Also I wouldn't be so sure our public space and enterprise have the same "norms"
10:16:33 Ge0rG pep.: now just make it mandatory for CS'21 Core IM and we are set
10:17:39 pep. Maybe someday people will stop assuming XMPP = IM
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10:19:00 Ge0rG Speaking of which, is it too early to fork off CS'21 yet?
10:19:06 jonas’ no
10:19:08 jonas’ it’s never too early
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10:19:32 Ge0rG It's not even 2020
10:19:38 jonas’ oh, right
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10:19:48 jonas’ no wait
10:19:51 jonas’ it’s never too early :)
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10:20:12 Ge0rG Heh!
10:20:49 Ge0rG XEP-0412 is still in Draft though
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10:21:08 jonas’ that’s where compliance suites go to die
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10:23:12 Ge0rG And it doesn't even link its predecessor. Who wrote this shit?
10:23:36 jonas’ the same person who wrote the star wars prequels, I think. so some people would argue that makes sense.
10:25:25 Ge0rG Well then
10:25:34 jonas’ (I am sorry)
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10:27:29 Ge0rG jonas’: are you really? 😋
10:28:00 jonas’ slightly
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13:29:32 goffi Hello here, I'm checking https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#continue to convert one2one chat to MUC, and I'm suspicious about sending the history from the one2one chat (cf. Example 63). Is there any client doing that? The text says that the <delay> element has the "from" of original message sender, but the example use the same "from" for the 2 messages (and using this, we could fake message from anybody).
13:30:06 goffi Is this the actual recommanded way to convert one2one chat to a MUC?
13:30:35 goffi recommended*
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13:38:08 Ge0rG goffi: I haven't seen it used anywhere, also there is the obvious trust problem
13:38:36 Ge0rG goffi: one could principally send <forwarded> messages into the MUC, but there is also the privacy problem
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14:05:08 goffi Ge0rG: indeed. Doesn't look good to me. I think I'll skip this history sending in my implementation, at least for now.
14:05:56 Ge0rG goffi: yeah
14:06:09 goffi also we would need to know how much of history to send, it's not trivial to do it right.
14:06:13 Ge0rG I've brought up those points in the context of MIX, and IIRC it lead to the removal of history upload
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21:21:55 Zash Is there a media type registered for XMPP stanzas?
21:22:17 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0081.xml :/
21:23:30 Zash Oh, application/xmpp+xml defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3923#section-10
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21:24:57 Zash Huh, weird <xmpp> container
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21:44:40 vanitasvitae In case you missed Moxie Marlinspikes latest talk about why decentralized systems are inferior to centralized systems, I formulated a reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21908712
21:45:13 vanitasvitae (I hope this is not too OT for this channel)
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21:48:48 Zash Nice
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21:49:10 Zash vanitasvitae: "While this is and issue" s/and/an/ ?
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21:50:19 vanitasvitae fixed 🙂
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21:56:31 Ge0rG vanitasvitae: great! minor typo: "called compliance suits" --> "suites"
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21:57:44 vanitasvitae Ge0rG, fixed as well
21:58:49 Ge0rG 👍
21:59:29 lovetox i dont know why this is even a discussion, there are pro and cons two both ways (decentralized/centralized) and they will not go away, talking about why a particular con or pro doesnt matter to you iin some specific project is irrelevant in my opinion
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22:00:07 lovetox there will always be people for which the pros/cons will matter
22:00:16 lovetox thats why there are 2 ways of doing things
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22:01:06 vanitasvitae sure. I just thought it was worth a reply nontheless.
22:01:12 lovetox *two/to
22:01:43 lovetox vanitasvitae, the "you" was not directed at you
22:01:53 lovetox i was speaking about moxie
22:02:20 lovetox i dont see the value in giving a talk how the centralized approach worked for signal
22:02:32 lovetox no shit it works, like it works for a million other projects
22:02:46 lovetox and it has the same cons and pros like all other projects
22:02:48 vanitasvitae 😀
22:03:16 lovetox i didnt listen to the talk, so if he brought something new groundbreaking to the discussion, ignore me
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22:18:00 MattJ lovetox: the problem is that Signal is trying to appeal to a privacy-conscious audience that has historically always been anti-centralization, so he needs to justify why Signal is not decentralized
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22:38:50 lovetox ah k, he should just go with, "its much easier, and we try to minimize the cons as much as possible, if you dont like it build something better decentralized"
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22:40:14 lovetox also why would he need to appeal to certain people
22:40:24 lovetox what is the signal business model?
22:41:38 vanitasvitae Get money from tech funds
22:42:01 lovetox ok but why would they invest money?
22:42:20 lovetox or do they invest money into openwhispersystems
22:42:24 lovetox for doing other stuff
22:42:36 lovetox and openwhispersystem just crossfinances signal on the side with it
22:43:12 lovetox because if their goal is total privacy, i dont see a way how signal can ever make money
22:44:10 vanitasvitae I mean, much of their money probably also comes from licensing libsignal to WhatsApp, Skype etc.
22:44:13 lovetox its subscription or add revenue on the internet, and with so many chat applications out there i dont think a subscription service will be profitable
22:44:33 lovetox its subscription or ad revenue on the internet, and with so many chat applications out there i dont think a subscription service will be profitable
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23:05:12 emus vanitasvitae: Well stated text. Will put ot to the newsletter I would like to say: "we do these things… …not because they are easy, but because they are RIGHT…"
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