What if you want to have a group with channels from different components?
pep.
Would not a list of channels be easier to handle? You can also do MIX like this it's not specific to MUC
pep.
(Not that I have any interest in having MIX implemented for the time being)
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MattJ
pep.: disco can return JIDs from other components :)
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pep.
MattJ: you'd be breaking a SHOULD? (Behind a feature I guess..). "The service SHOULD return a full list of the public rooms it hosts"
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pep.
I came across this but I was mostly looking at possible restrictions on the type of jid you can put in there
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Ge0rG
It doesn't say it may only return rooms...
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pep.
It doesn't insist on it..
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pep.
I wonder how many people would interpret it this loosely though
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Ge0rG
Most of them
MattJ
Who cares?
pep.
MattJ: dunno, some optimisation "because the xep says so"
MattJ
Disco has been used this way for a long long time, not necessarily on MUC components (that I'm aware of)
MattJ
But I don't see a difference
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Ge0rG
Reminds me of https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Client_Test_Cases
MattJ
The attribute is 'jid' not 'nodepart'
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MattJ
In the olden days many servers would return conference.jabber.org in their disco items, or transports from another server, etc.
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MattJ
Clients did not and should not expect that those services are always subdomains of the domain they disco, and the same applies here
Ge0rG
pep.: there is actual benefit in using jonas’' muc search API instead of the blunt disco#items, as it provides rich info without having to query each room individually
Ge0rG
And that doesn't come with the expectation of all rooms being on the same domain
pep.
Ge0rG: context?
Ge0rG
pep.: exposing a "community" room list
pep.
I don't especially think this should be restricted to being a "room" list
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Ge0rG
Well, you could stuff anything into it, but what would be useful, and not too far away from normal xmpp clients?
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pep.
By "normal" you mean chat?
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Ge0rG
I mean the widely deployed ones, which is roughly the same
pep.
All clients support PEP right. Microblog is not too far away :p
Ge0rG
pep.: now just make it mandatory for CS'21 and we are set✎
pep.
Also I wouldn't be so sure our public space and enterprise have the same "norms"
Ge0rG
pep.: now just make it mandatory for CS'21 Core IM and we are set ✏
pep.
Maybe someday people will stop assuming XMPP = IM
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Ge0rG
Speaking of which, is it too early to fork off CS'21 yet?
jonas’
no
jonas’
it’s never too early
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Ge0rG
It's not even 2020
jonas’
oh, right
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jonas’
no wait
jonas’
it’s never too early :)
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Ge0rG
Heh!
Ge0rG
XEP-0412 is still in Draft though
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jonas’
that’s where compliance suites go to die
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Ge0rG
And it doesn't even link its predecessor. Who wrote this shit?
jonas’
the same person who wrote the star wars prequels, I think. so some people would argue that makes sense.
Ge0rG
Well then
jonas’
(I am sorry)
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Ge0rG
jonas’: are you really? 😋
jonas’
slightly
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goffi
Hello here, I'm checking https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#continue to convert one2one chat to MUC, and I'm suspicious about sending the history from the
one2one chat (cf. Example 63). Is there any client doing that? The text says that the <delay> element has the "from" of original message sender, but the example use the
same "from" for the 2 messages (and using this, we could fake message from anybody).
goffi
Is this the actual recommanded way to convert one2one chat to a MUC?
goffi
recommended*
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Ge0rG
goffi: I haven't seen it used anywhere, also there is the obvious trust problem
Ge0rG
goffi: one could principally send <forwarded> messages into the MUC, but there is also the privacy problem
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goffi
Ge0rG: indeed. Doesn't look good to me. I think I'll skip this history sending in my implementation, at least for now.
Ge0rG
goffi: yeah
goffi
also we would need to know how much of history to send, it's not trivial to do it right.
Ge0rG
I've brought up those points in the context of MIX, and IIRC it lead to the removal of history upload
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Zash
Is there a media type registered for XMPP stanzas?
Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0081.xml :/
Zash
Oh, application/xmpp+xml defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3923#section-10
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Zash
Huh, weird <xmpp> container
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vanitasvitae
In case you missed Moxie Marlinspikes latest talk about why decentralized systems are inferior to centralized systems, I formulated a reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21908712
vanitasvitae
(I hope this is not too OT for this channel)
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Zash
Nice
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Zash
vanitasvitae: "While this is and issue" s/and/an/ ?
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vanitasvitae
fixed 🙂
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Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: great! minor typo: "called compliance suits" --> "suites"
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vanitasvitae
Ge0rG, fixed as well
Ge0rG
👍
lovetox
i dont know why this is even a discussion, there are pro and cons two both ways (decentralized/centralized) and they will not go away, talking about why a particular con or pro doesnt matter to you iin some specific project is irrelevant in my opinion
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lovetox
there will always be people for which the pros/cons will matter
lovetox
thats why there are 2 ways of doing things
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vanitasvitae
sure. I just thought it was worth a reply nontheless.
lovetox
*two/to
lovetox
vanitasvitae, the "you" was not directed at you
lovetox
i was speaking about moxie
lovetox
i dont see the value in giving a talk how the centralized approach worked for signal
lovetox
no shit it works, like it works for a million other projects
lovetox
and it has the same cons and pros like all other projects
vanitasvitae
😀
lovetox
i didnt listen to the talk, so if he brought something new groundbreaking to the discussion, ignore me
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MattJ
lovetox: the problem is that Signal is trying to appeal to a privacy-conscious audience that has historically always been anti-centralization, so he needs to justify why Signal is not decentralized
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lovetox
ah k, he should just go with, "its much easier, and we try to minimize the cons as much as possible, if you dont like it build something better decentralized"
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lovetox
also why would he need to appeal to certain people
lovetox
what is the signal business model?
vanitasvitae
Get money from tech funds
lovetox
ok but why would they invest money?
lovetox
or do they invest money into openwhispersystems
lovetox
for doing other stuff
lovetox
and openwhispersystem just crossfinances signal on the side with it
lovetox
because if their goal is total privacy, i dont see a way how signal can ever make money
vanitasvitae
I mean, much of their money probably also comes from licensing libsignal to WhatsApp, Skype etc.
lovetox
its subscription or add revenue on the internet, and with so many chat applications out there i dont think a subscription service will be profitable✎
lovetox
its subscription or ad revenue on the internet, and with so many chat applications out there i dont think a subscription service will be profitable ✏
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emus
vanitasvitae: Well stated text. Will put ot to the newsletter
I would like to say: "we do these things…
…not because they are easy, but because they are RIGHT…"